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20130119 09:28:06< shadowm> zookeeper: So why doesn't the LIMIT_RECRUITS macro in mainline clean up after itself on victory (and seems to account for that fact on prestart?)
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20130119 10:00:09< zookeeper> shadowm, laziness or an oversight
20130119 10:02:15< shadowm> Which needs to be fixed.
20130119 10:12:30< zookeeper> certainly
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20130119 10:49:05< boucman> mattsc: around ?
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--- Log opened Sat Jan 19 13:56:10 2013
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20130119 13:56:19-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: FOSDEM 2013 planning: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2013 | 177 bugs, 333 feature requests, 16 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130119 13:56:19-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Wed Jan 16 23:53:23 2013]
20130119 13:56:19[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20130119 13:56:19[ AI0867         ] [ ejls     ] [ horon    ] [ loonybot   ] [ Smar    ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ Akihara        ] [ elias    ] [ Ingmar   ] [ loonycyborg] [ timotei ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ apoi           ] [ enchilado] [ irker258 ] [ LordNasty  ] [ ToBeFree] 
20130119 13:56:19[ Appleman1234   ] [ Espreon  ] [ irker800 ] [ mattsc     ] [ trewe   ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ Arc            ] [ esr      ] [ isaac    ] [ melinath   ] [ Upth    ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ balrog         ] [ ettin    ] [ Ivanovic ] [ mjs-de     ] [ Upthorn ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ boucman        ] [ exciton  ] [ iwaim_   ] [ oldtopman  ] [ vultraz ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ ChrisOelmueller] [ fendrin  ] [ jamit    ] [ Rhonda     ] [ wesbot  ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ cjhopman       ] [ Gallaecio] [ janebot  ] [ Samual     ] [ {V}     ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ cjhopman_      ] [ greg-pdx ] [ knotwork_] [ shadowm    ] 
20130119 13:56:19[ crimson_penguin] [ happygrue] [ lobby    ] [ shikadibot ] 
20130119 13:56:19-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 53 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 53 normal]
20130119 13:56:26-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20130119 14:46:00< irker819> wesnoth: jamit * r56095 /trunk/src/unit_types.cpp: 
20130119 14:46:01< irker819> wesnoth: Move processing of child configs from unit_type to unit_type_data::set_config().
20130119 14:46:01< irker819> wesnoth: It is a bit hacky to have unit_type modify the config passed as a parameter to its constructor,
20130119 14:46:02< irker819> wesnoth: especially when the modifications are not done by the constructor.
20130119 14:46:03< irker819> wesnoth: As for performance, this change has little impact on the net time taken by set_config(). While
20130119 14:46:03< irker819> wesnoth: it does spend more time processing configs, it takes less time building unit_types. The net
20130119 14:46:03< irker819> wesnoth: result might be a small increase in time, but any increase is comparable to the variations
20130119 14:46:04< irker819> wesnoth: (Log message trimmed.)
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20130119 16:07:20< mattsc> boucman: I am now
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20130119 16:07:43< boucman> hey :)
20130119 16:07:55< boucman> an Idea I had bouncing in my head for some time...
20130119 16:08:35< boucman> do we have anything in the AI dedicated to "decide where to move newly recruited units" i.e a part of the AI that only deals with units out of combat and decide in which area they would be the most usefull
20130119 16:08:59< boucman> I think that would be a good candidate for a second "learning AI" like the recruiting one...
20130119 16:09:33< mattsc> If I understand you correctly, that's what the move-to-targets CA does for all units (not just newly recruited units)
20130119 16:09:49< boucman> oh, ok
20130119 16:09:52< boucman> didn't know that
20130119 16:10:15< mattsc> not saying that it does it exactly how you imagine, but MtT moves units to targets more than one move away
20130119 16:10:27< boucman> ok
20130119 16:10:58< mattsc> One of the problems with that is that the only default targets are enemy leaders and villages
20130119 16:11:20< mattsc> (There were a couple topics on that on the forums recently, don't know if you saw those)
20130119 16:11:53< mattsc> But then you can set other targets manually with the [goal] tag (or [target], previously)
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20130119 16:15:43< jamit> mattsc: Quick question, if you know the answer: Is there an AI setting that will cause a leader to move to targets?
20130119 16:16:05< jamit> If you don't know, I suppose I could be not-lazy and review the wiki. :)
20130119 16:16:41< mattsc> I'll do it for you:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#The_.5Bai.5D_Tag:_Defining_Aspects
20130119 16:16:47< mattsc> [leader_goal]
20130119 16:17:09< jamit> Ah...
20130119 16:17:43< mattsc> That only works with x,y coordinates though, not units etc.
20130119 16:17:44< jamit> Hmm... but that only  makes locations a goal, not enemy units.
20130119 16:18:05< mattsc> yes
20130119 16:18:35< jamit> So I think I was right when I said a new CA might be needed for http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=38183
20130119 16:18:51< jamit> The situation is that all units are leaders, so no one wants to fight.
20130119 16:20:02< mattsc> yes, that's correct.  In fact:
20130119 16:20:37< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior#Ideas_for_Potentially_Easy_AI_Patches
20130119 16:21:02< mattsc> Look at the third bullet.  At some point (during the last GSOC) I made the request to be able to do that.
20130119 16:21:28< mattsc> It never happened though, didn't make it high enough up on the priority list.
20130119 16:22:08< jamit> Heh. Here I thought you were going to bring up something in AI demos. :)
20130119 16:22:29< mattsc> Only _almost_ all of the time  :)
20130119 16:22:51< mattsc> It links to the thread about AI Demos though ...
20130119 16:23:32< mattsc> Seriously though, maybe I should have a look at that myself and see if that can be done relatively easily
20130119 16:24:48< jamit> It should be easy, once you find the right place in the code. There should be a check for being a leader, and adding another condition based on an AI parameter should do the trick.
20130119 16:25:32< mattsc> That's what I'm hoping ...
20130119 16:25:34< jamit> The only complication I might foresee is that the leader check might be in a place where the AI parameters are not directly accessible.
20130119 16:25:50< jamit> Hmm...
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20130119 16:27:26< jamit> I would guess it is ai/testing/ca_testing_move_to_targets.cpp, line 283.
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20130119 16:29:07< mattsc> Yeah, just checking it out myself.  I want to look around quite a bit more though, to make sure that that doesn't affect other parts as well
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20130119 16:30:23< jamit> Well, if you want to do things right.... :)  Checking side-effects is one of the nasty things about messing with the AI code.
20130119 16:33:04< mattsc> Well, an obvious side effect is that the leader would leave the keep before he's done recruiting, but that could be made the scenario designers responsibility
20130119 16:33:27< mattsc> Well, if he has gold for more than one turn, that is.
20130119 16:34:01< mattsc> Since the MtT CA has essentially the lowest score, I hope you can just do it as simple as that.
20130119 16:34:56< mattsc> I don't have time right now though, will look into it sometime later today (unless you want to give it a shot)
20130119 16:35:11< jamit> Well, for the topic I linked to, recruiting is not an issue, since there are no keeps.
20130119 16:36:15< jamit> I'll leave it to you.
20130119 16:36:19< mattsc> And in other scenarios you can add an event that only sets the aspects after x turns, or when gold is low or ...
20130119 16:37:27< mattsc> I am actually doing something like that in Grnk - my second-favorite thing to point to :) - manually forcing the AI leader to participate in the action once he's done recruiting
20130119 16:37:57< mattsc> O, I think I'll have some time to look into this tonight
20130119 16:38:03< mattsc> s/O/Ok
20130119 16:38:11< jamit> That might be something to (later) write a macro for. A recruit/recall event to turn on "suicidal leader" when gold goes low enough, and a new_turn event to turn it off when gold is high.
20130119 16:38:49< mattsc> Sure, that's easy.
20130119 16:41:22< cib0> Leader not doing anything became painfully obvious to me when I created a map with no keeps and no villages :)
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20130119 16:44:47< mattsc> cib0: yep.  You can always force them to do certain things though, e,g, with leader goals or goto.
20130119 16:45:29< cib0> Good to know, I haven't done scenarios in wayyy too long
20130119 16:45:42< cib0> I think that stuff was fairly new when I last did
20130119 16:53:58< irker819> wesnoth: jamit * r56096 /trunk/src/ (unit_types.hpp unit_types.cpp): 
20130119 16:53:58< irker819> wesnoth: Add a "const" qualifier to unit_type::cfg_.
20130119 16:53:59< irker819> wesnoth: This was made possible by r56095, and reduces the number of blank attributes inserted
20130119 16:53:59< irker819> wesnoth: into the config. (Almost eliminates the blank attributes in unit_type configs, but
20130119 16:54:00< irker819> wesnoth: variations still get "inherited=" inserted if it was not specified.)
20130119 17:02:37< cib0> Hm.. whom does one contact about forum related problems?
20130119 17:13:33< Cookie> shadowmaster.
20130119 17:13:43< cib0> Thanks
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20130119 18:02:01< irker819> wesnoth: jamit * r56097 /trunk/src/ (unit_types.hpp unit_types.cpp): 
20130119 18:02:01< irker819> wesnoth: Have [unit_type] variations (including [male]/[female]) inherit their parent's ID, even
20130119 18:02:02< irker819> wesnoth: if inherit=no.
20130119 18:02:02< irker819> wesnoth: If a variation is really supposed to have a blank ID, that can still be accomplished by
20130119 18:02:03< irker819> wesnoth: explicitly setting id="".
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20130119 19:22:05< irker819> wesnoth: jamit * r56098 /trunk/src/ (unit_types.hpp unit_types.cpp): 
20130119 19:22:05< irker819> wesnoth: When logging messages about unit_types, include an indication if the type is a gendered
20130119 19:22:06< irker819> wesnoth: subtype ([male] or [female]; not directly related to gender=) and/or a [variation].
20130119 19:22:06< irker819> wesnoth: Gender appears in parentheses; variation name in square brackets.
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20130119 19:52:37< cib0> Has anybody ever encountered problems where all connections to wesnoth.org would slow down to less than 1kb/s, whereas the rest of the internet would work fine?
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20130119 21:02:17< mattsc> jamit: as usual, it's not that simple.  At the very least, we also need to disable move_leader_to_keep.  Btw, what should I call the new aspect?
20130119 21:02:53< mattsc> I like suicidal_leader= , but that might be too cynical.  active_leader= ?  Not that it's the opposite of passive_leader= ...
20130119 21:03:12< mattsc> hyperactive_leader =  :)
20130119 21:06:23< cib0> mattsc: aggressive_leader ?
20130119 21:07:49< mattsc> cib0: I thought of that (or simply using a special value for leader_aggression).  The problem with that is that aggression is used in the RCA AI to parametrize attacks, whereas this is for moving toward targets.
20130119 21:09:12< mattsc> I think that active_leader describes it best, of everything I have come up with so far.
20130119 21:10:42< cib0> Yeah
20130119 21:11:41< jamit> leader_told_by_mattsc_to_kill_stuff = definitely?
20130119 21:12:32< jamit> active_leader seems appropriate, but I'm not sure if it fits given the "passive" leader attribute.
20130119 21:13:18< cib0> If it's too hard to name, the level of abstraction may not be right
20130119 21:13:30< jamit> combative_leader ?
20130119 21:13:37< cib0> I like that
20130119 21:14:04< cib0> Although.. it might again refer too much to the actual combat, as opposed to movement
20130119 21:14:33< jamit> Well, the goal is combat. If the intent was just to move, there is already a way to do that.
20130119 21:15:58< jamit> The problem with "aggressive_leader" is that it looks similar to something that affects attacking, not so much that "aggressive" is a hostile word.
20130119 21:16:09< cib0> Okay
20130119 21:16:49< cib0> Still, the fact this is so hard to name doesn't seem good :)
20130119 21:16:53< mattsc> Yeah, the connotation people might get could be wrong, rather than that the word itself is incorrect
20130119 21:16:57< jamit> It's similar to my (minor) reservation about "active_leader" -- there is a linguistic connection to an unconnected attribute.
20130119 21:17:58< mattsc> I got to run again, will check for follow-up comments later
20130119 21:20:13< jamit> Maybe something like "warleader"? Or something that implies a leader who actually leads the charge into battle, rather than sitting in a tent and giving orders?
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20130119 21:23:18< anonymissimus> jamit: "multiple base units" ? really ?
20130119 21:24:34< anonymissimus> jamit: I recall that I wanted to have a base_unit which has a base_unit itself; but I somehow doubt inheriting from 2+ base units in the same unit type makes sense...and how would I specify what to take from what ?
20130119 21:24:45< AI0867> multiple inheritance
20130119 21:24:59< anonymissimus> yes, but do we need that in wml
20130119 21:25:02< AI0867> though I had to fix a bug with diamond-inheritance at some point
20130119 21:25:10< AI0867> there are usecases
20130119 21:25:21< cib0> Seeing that commit actually made me smile
20130119 21:25:28< cib0> But I'm curious as well what it'd be used for
20130119 21:30:06< shadowm> cib0: What forum problems?
20130119 21:30:17< jamit> anonymissimus: Not sure how useful it is, but it was already implemented. Just with a bug in an obscure case.
20130119 21:30:58< cib0> shadowm: Sent you a PM
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20130119 21:31:06< jamit> anonymissimus: One thing you can do is define an incomplete type and use it just as a base type. But putting that into a macro might be a better idea.
20130119 21:31:41< cib0> jamit: Ah, that's interesting
20130119 21:32:03< cib0> Also, unless macros were very much optimized since a few years ago, macro's are very rarely the best idea when an alternative exists :)
20130119 21:32:18< shadowm> cib0: Downgraded to Code & WML Contributor.
20130119 21:32:24< cib0> shadowm: Thank you
20130119 21:32:42< shadowm> THe preprocessor has actually seen some optimizations throughout 1.9.x. and 1.11.x.
20130119 21:33:08< shadowm> And the internal representation of WML (a.k.a. config) was even more greatly optimized for 1.9.0.
20130119 21:33:22< shadowm> At the cost of some unfortunate regressions that haven't been properly addressed yet, of course.
20130119 21:33:59< jamit> shadowm: Which regressions are left?
20130119 21:34:09< anonymissimus> jamit: when I worked with it the last time, it was so that later attributes/tags overwrote the earlier ones
20130119 21:34:29< anonymissimus> jamit: how would I know which overwrites which if I have two base units ?
20130119 21:34:51< anonymissimus> perhaps the base unit specified later overwrites the eralier one ?
20130119 21:35:15< jamit> anonymissimus: That's where an incomplete type comes in. You could define one base type that has no image, and a second one that provides the image.
20130119 21:35:28< anonymissimus> jamit: "One thing you can do is define an incomplete type and use it just as a base type" why do I need mutiple inheritance for that ?
20130119 21:36:09< jamit> For my simplified test case, I had a [unit_type] that defined nothing but hit points.
20130119 21:36:13< cib0> If you use several base types, each contributing different things
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20130119 21:36:21< shadowm> jamit: Hm. It looks like the one I was thinking of was fixed by you?
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20130119 21:36:41< shadowm> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?19201
20130119 21:36:52< shadowm> Even though it's assigned to that j_daniel dude.
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20130119 21:37:46< shadowm> There is also something else about unquoted things like name=turn $foobar being turned into "turn$foobar" or something, but I don't remember the issue number atm.
20130119 21:38:10< jamit> shadowm: Oh right. j_daniel had marked it as fixed earlier (and it wither wasn't or it rebroke), and I did not change the assignment.
20130119 21:38:16< shadowm> *is/was
20130119 21:39:11< jamit> I keep forgetting to look into those lost spaces. I should add it to a list somewhere.
20130119 21:39:24< shadowm> That kind of thing would be prime test case material, if only we had a test suite that actually worked correctly.
20130119 21:40:17< jamit> anonymissimus: I really don't know why you need multiple inheritance. It just was already there.
20130119 21:41:16< anonymissimus> shadowm: do you mean this http://gna.org/bugs/index.php?16692 ?
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20130119 21:41:30< jamit> anonymissimus: Part of the reason I fixed it up is that inheritance is now more robust against cycles. The program no longer relies on detecting cycles to avoid infinite loops. The algorithm simply cannot loop.
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20130119 21:42:32< shadowm> anonymissimus: Apparently.
20130119 21:44:31< anonymissimus> that bug is actually 2 bugs; I at some spot said that I don't mind the original issue I reported and silene closed it; then sapient came with the other issue
20130119 21:48:34< shadowm> Why, oh why, do we still have to mention silene.
20130119 21:48:58< shadowm> That sound you hear are my teeth grinding.
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 20 00:00:03 2013