--- Log opened Fri Jan 18 00:00:52 2013
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20130118 03:05:12< Alarantalara> Hello skyfaller. Ron's been improved somewhat, but it seems clear that he plays badly on Aethermaw, especially compared to other maps.
20130118 03:05:51< Alarantalara> Identifying what's missing there might be very useful for general improvement
20130118 03:05:56< skyfaller> hm, unsurprising, that map is hard
20130118 03:06:37< skyfaller> it seems like it will be very hard for an AI to figure out Aethermaw without map-specific programming
20130118 03:07:03< skyfaller> We can tell Fred about the way the map opens up ahead of time, and suggest some opening moves
20130118 03:07:15< skyfaller> But how can Ron possibly know how the map will open up?
20130118 03:07:45< skyfaller> once the map opens up, Ron can move troops forward and deal with the map normally
20130118 03:07:49< Alarantalara> There seems to be problems even after that point.
20130118 03:08:04< skyfaller> ah, well, then I'm happy to talk about that :)
20130118 03:08:12< skyfaller> what seems to be the problem?
20130118 03:09:03< skyfaller> first question: Does Ron understand the nature of the impassable recruiting spots?
20130118 03:09:09< Alarantalara> In the games I've watched, up to but not including the change I've made today, it often looks like a trickle of units coming in that get smashed
20130118 03:09:55< Alarantalara> Yeah, they get recruited to. Possibly incorrectly — since in some cases that means recruiting a unit to the impassible spot on the enemy's side
20130118 03:10:02< Alarantalara> when no unit is available for support
20130118 03:10:44< skyfaller> hm, ok
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20130118 03:11:24< skyfaller> well, the general strategy I use in Aethermaw is to send in an overwhelming force on one side while using the slow opening of the map to delay the other side with chokepoints
20130118 03:11:41< Alarantalara> Meanwhile, on the other side of the map (the one away from wherever the enemy leader is), if the opponent wins that fight, then the enemy units wander in, capture all the villages and then meet up with reinforcements from the extra income and win
20130118 03:12:02< Alarantalara> because the reinforcements went the other way, since that was the shorter route
20130118 03:13:11< skyfaller> I'm not sure I understood your last sentence
20130118 03:13:51< Alarantalara> It's probably easier to just watch a game of Ron vs RCA
20130118 03:14:18< Alarantalara> Basically the enemy leader is closer on one front than the other
20130118 03:14:25< skyfaller> ok :)
20130118 03:14:36< Alarantalara> This has Ron send most units clockwise
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20130118 03:15:15< Alarantalara> If the enemy units win in the counter clockwise direction quickly enough, then they capture all the villages near them more or less unopposed
20130118 03:15:43< Alarantalara> This lets the opponent recruit enough units to withstand Ron's clockwise assault
20130118 03:15:50< Alarantalara> and eventually that kills Ron
20130118 03:16:03< Alarantalara> as the villages that are counterclockwise never get reclaimed
20130118 03:16:41< Alarantalara> I've added an aggressive village claiming CA today, and it's providing about an 8% improvement so far
20130118 03:17:06< Alarantalara> but that still leaves it behind all the other maps (since they benefit too)
20130118 03:17:59< skyfaller> brb, phone call
20130118 03:33:07< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16961 /trunk/After_the_Storm/macros/spawners.cfg: 
20130118 03:33:07< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: use [unit] to spawn spawner spawns instead of relying upon undefined [unstore_unit] behavior
20130118 03:33:08< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: The previous approach involved generating partial unit state by hand in
20130118 03:33:08< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: a WML container and assuming that [unstore_unit] would do the right
20130118 03:33:09< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: thing afterwards. However, this does not seem to be always the case
20130118 03:33:09< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: (e.g. unusual behavior for impassable locations), so we might as well
20130118 03:33:10< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: take a safer approach for this task.
20130118 03:40:12< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16962 /trunk/After_the_Storm/changelog: 
20130118 03:40:12< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: changelog update
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20130118 03:57:17< skyfaller> Alarantalara: so somehow Ron needs to fight a better defense on the side he is not attacking on
20130118 03:57:45< Alarantalara> Among other things
20130118 03:58:14< skyfaller> I assume I should look at the latest version from Github?
20130118 03:58:20< Alarantalara> Sure
20130118 03:58:50< Alarantalara> I noticed another problem, in that there aren't many villages reachable from the initial keep
20130118 03:58:58< skyfaller> and Wesnoth 1.11.1?
20130118 03:59:04< Alarantalara> yes
20130118 03:59:09< Alarantalara> so some of the early recruits end up in the wrong place
20130118 04:00:09< Alarantalara> Amusingly, the default AI picks better spots for once
20130118 04:00:13< skyfaller> ha!
20130118 04:00:23< skyfaller> yeah, the initial setup on Aethermaw is impossibly difficult
20130118 04:00:56< skyfaller> having a quick leader helps a LOT
20130118 04:02:49< Alarantalara> It also might be slightly better to move to a keep that is farther away from the enemy rather than closer, which is contradictory
20130118 04:03:07< skyfaller> because it lets you switch keeps more quickly?
20130118 04:03:22< Alarantalara> Because it lets you recruit units closer to the unoccupied villages
20130118 04:04:12< skyfaller> oh, interesting
20130118 04:05:36< skyfaller> you mean for the initial village grab?
20130118 04:07:38< skyfaller> I just finished downloading 1.11.1, need to get AI-demos set up
20130118 04:07:47< Alarantalara> yes
20130118 04:07:56< Alarantalara> for the initial grab
20130118 04:09:23< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r16963 /trunk/After_the_Storm/lua/common.lua: 
20130118 04:09:23< irker261> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: fix [check_unit_in_range] filtering a random slave unit because of a reference to a nil variable
20130118 04:11:35< skyfaller> Alarantalara: I am having trouble syncing my local copy with Github... help?
20130118 04:11:51< Alarantalara> have you made changes?
20130118 04:11:51< skyfaller> maybe this is because I haven't synced since Dec 8
20130118 04:12:03< skyfaller> not intentionally... it thinks I've changed everything though
20130118 04:12:53< Alarantalara> generally there should only be a problem if you've made some changes
20130118 04:14:09< skyfaller> blargh
20130118 04:14:18< skyfaller> it literally thinks I have changed every file
20130118 04:14:21< skyfaller> why would it think this?
20130118 04:14:29< shadowm> Windows filesystem?
20130118 04:14:33< skyfaller> OS X
20130118 04:14:52< skyfaller> I just want to suck down a clean copy from the repository
20130118 04:14:59< skyfaller> I don't care about anything I have on my machine
20130118 04:14:59< shadowm> You could otherwise check what changes it thinks there are with git diff.
20130118 04:16:26< skyfaller> I'm using the Github for Mac application because I'm a clueless noob
20130118 04:19:47< Alarantalara> If you don't care about anything, perhaps I'd suggest the following:
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20130118 04:20:24< Alarantalara> Open Terminal, change the directory to somewhere in the local repository
20130118 04:20:42< Alarantalara> then type: git reset --hard
20130118 04:21:11< skyfaller> Alarantalara: thanks! that worked :D
20130118 04:21:11< Alarantalara> which should throw everything away and give you the latest version
20130118 04:21:52< Alarantalara> and I type too slowly
20130118 04:22:01< skyfaller> ok, now I just power up Wesnoth and start a local multiplayer game with Ron on Aethermaw?
20130118 04:22:10< Alarantalara> yes
20130118 04:22:49< skyfaller> "modifications"??? Does our plugin have plugins?
20130118 04:23:25< skyfaller> wtf is this 2nd box in the Era field?
20130118 04:23:45< Alarantalara> It's a new feature, to allow changes that formerly required eras
20130118 04:23:59< Alarantalara> so you can now have an Era and something special
20130118 04:24:05< skyfaller> wow, and there's an options button?? We don't have any options yet I see
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20130118 04:24:39< Alarantalara> The options should only appear if you select a modification first
20130118 04:24:40< skyfaller> should I use straight Ron or Ron with the ML recruiter?
20130118 04:24:44< skyfaller> ah, I see
20130118 04:24:53< Alarantalara> straight Ron, the ML recruiter requires a patch
20130118 04:25:06< skyfaller> ah, I see
20130118 04:25:18< skyfaller> factions don't matter?
20130118 04:25:26< skyfaller> like, for the purpose of this test
20130118 04:25:40< Alarantalara> not really, since it's general behaviour here
20130118 04:25:44< skyfaller> ok
20130118 04:26:21< skyfaller> I love Sulla being a dick in the middle of the battlefield
20130118 04:26:30< skyfaller> "Entertain me! By dying!"
20130118 04:32:49< skyfaller> so far Ron did a shitty opening grab
20130118 04:32:55< Alarantalara> oh yes
20130118 04:33:42< skyfaller> fortunately Ron had 3 elf fighters in range of an augur scout(!) when it stole the village :P
20130118 04:34:20< skyfaller> wait, how much of an income advantage should I have given the RCA AI?
20130118 04:34:35< Alarantalara> on this map, none might be appropriate
20130118 04:35:20< skyfaller> Ron won in 15 turns
20130118 04:35:36< Alarantalara> Today's change has helped a lot
20130118 04:35:42< skyfaller> he managed to get some forces around one side, crippling the RCA's income
20130118 04:35:54< Alarantalara> if you go back one commit, that just doesn't happen
20130118 04:35:56< skyfaller> elf scouts are great
20130118 04:36:02< skyfaller> for village stealing
20130118 04:36:15< skyfaller> as long as they can avoid being trapped, nothing can keep up with them
20130118 04:37:16< skyfaller> Alarantalara: what was the commit that fixed it?
20130118 04:37:42< Alarantalara> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/commit/f823ee6c96ad853a5f1e7b333c6e2fe5b1361fff
20130118 04:38:24< Alarantalara> It's what probably caused some odd changes in direction in the first few turns
20130118 04:38:34< skyfaller> ooooh, that looks like a nice CA
20130118 04:39:42< mattsc> skyfaller: hey!
20130118 04:39:50< skyfaller> hahaha the RCA is buying landfish
20130118 04:39:58< skyfaller> hi mattsc :)
20130118 04:40:07< mattsc> Just saying hello, it's been a while.  And I don't have time to hang around right now again  :(
20130118 04:40:35< mattsc> I do always read up on your discussion with Alarantalara though
20130118 04:40:40< skyfaller> yeah, I'm studying for the bar exam, I don't really have time to play
20130118 04:40:46< skyfaller> if I want to be a real lawyer
20130118 04:40:56< mattsc> bar exam?  How to mix drinks?  ;)
20130118 04:41:10< mattsc> Cool.  Good luck!
20130118 04:41:23< skyfaller> thanks :)
20130118 04:41:31< mattsc> I bet you've heard that joke many times over - sorry.
20130118 04:41:39< skyfaller> maybe in March I'll come back and chip in more time
20130118 04:41:41< Alarantalara> So it looks like I need to improve recruit location some more, which might avoid the changes in direction, thus improving the initial village grab,
20130118 04:42:11< skyfaller> yeah, the initial recruit is key, we want to have our grabbing done early so we can start massing at the border
20130118 04:42:18< skyfaller> too bad Ron has no idea where the enemy will come from
20130118 04:42:25< mattsc> Great.  I'll be traveling again next week, but I am planning to get back to poor neglected Fred after that.
20130118 04:42:39< skyfaller> oooh Ron trapped the enemy leader on turn 8
20130118 04:42:45< mattsc> Ok, off for now, have fun.
20130118 04:42:46< skyfaller> good trapping guys!
20130118 04:43:04< Alarantalara> That's the RCA AI still making those attacks
20130118 04:43:13< mattsc> Alarantalara: does Ron do any (intentional) trapping?
20130118 04:43:16< Alarantalara> no
20130118 04:43:24< skyfaller> really?? huh
20130118 04:43:36< skyfaller> I didn't know the RCA was even capable of trapping, that must have been an accident
20130118 04:44:04< Alarantalara> It will sometimes do it, but it's rare
20130118 04:44:09< skyfaller> yeah, the next turn it failed to trap again, but it didn't need to because it was a wussy elf leader and it died
20130118 04:44:44< Alarantalara> I've seen it untrap units that it had trapped at the start of the turn
20130118 04:44:49< skyfaller> :(
20130118 04:45:05< skyfaller> oh well, together Ron and Fred will overcome these difficulties eventually
20130118 04:45:32< skyfaller> OK, I'm actually not seeing a real problem at the moment, Ron is doing OK against the RCA
20130118 04:45:51< Alarantalara> OKay, so it's just really that initial grab that's a problem right now then
20130118 04:45:58< skyfaller> yeah, the initial grab is weak
20130118 04:46:01< Alarantalara> since Ron does a good job of it on most other maps
20130118 04:46:04< skyfaller> but Ron seems to be making up for it later
20130118 04:46:43< Alarantalara> My test games are running about 70% wins right now
20130118 04:46:57< Alarantalara> it was 62% yesterday
20130118 04:47:22< skyfaller> I'm going to sign off for now, but whenever I'm in here I'm happy to give advice
20130118 04:47:30< Alarantalara> alright
20130118 04:47:42< skyfaller> thanks for helping me get up to date again :)
20130118 04:47:45< skyfaller> ttfn!
20130118 04:47:48< Alarantalara> bye!
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20130118 05:14:01< irker261> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r0a260ee / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Do some evaluations only if needed - http://git.io/Uu13AQ
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20130118 13:45:53< irker592> wesnoth-umc-dev: bumbadadabum * r16964 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/images/units/elves-quenoth/druid.png: 
20130118 13:45:53< irker592> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: new Desert Druid sprite
20130118 14:05:10< irker592> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r9bdd8d8 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Ignore unreachable enemy leaders when selecting keep - http://git.io/x-P-NA
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20130118 14:36:11< irker592> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r0950aca / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Correct default value for lawful_bonus - http://git.io/BdT-Nw
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20130118 14:57:58< irker592> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * ra4cfe57 / lua/generic-recruit_engine.lua : Change exceeding the gold limit to reach all villages a penalty rather than a veto - http://git.io/5dM2XQ
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20130118 15:54:53< irker592> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r172a3e7 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Capture more villages if we can't continue recruiting this turn - http://git.io/j8keFw
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20130118 20:00:21< zookeeper> AI0867, have any geography things to tell me?
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20130118 20:52:07< AI0867> zookeeper: yes
20130118 20:52:29< zookeeper> great. fire away whenever you want or have time.
20130118 20:53:09< AI0867> okay, well, espreon marked this area http://imagebin.org/242999 out of the larger map
20130118 20:53:24< AI0867> the larger one being http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2553/allwesnothb.jpg
20130118 20:54:13< AI0867> we need most of that for EoS. That is, the separation from wesnoth using the elvish forest + a big mountain range + a big desert
20130118 20:54:44< AI0867> then the two human cities, the hills in the center, the lake to the south
20130118 20:55:09< AI0867> the bigger lake to the east would also be nice to have, and it would be even better if it could be a bifurcation lake
20130118 20:55:16< zookeeper> desert, hrhm. that's the only tricky part, let me take a look...
20130118 20:55:34< AI0867> though being 'only' the source of the great river is also acceptable
20130118 20:56:22< AI0867> I think the hydrology can be made to work out, but I don't know what other considerations you have
20130118 20:56:39< zookeeper> great, paint.net crashed just now and took the accommodating changes i had already made with it -.-
20130118 20:59:11< AI0867> ah, also the swamp that we have in there. The location isn't all that sensitive, but near a big lake or river is the obvious choice
20130118 20:59:11< zookeeper> a few minutes more, this is dreadfully slow...
20130118 20:59:48< AI0867> there's also the detail of the two human cities (noct & diurna) being on opposite sides of a river
20130118 21:01:52< AI0867> that's pretty much the EoS stuff
20130118 21:02:04< AI0867> there's also kalifa-related things
20130118 21:02:58< zookeeper> ok, i'll draw a quick sketch for you if you give me a few more minutes, then you can say if i've missed something
20130118 21:03:00< bumbadadabum> Is Wesnoth on the northern or southern hemisphere?
20130118 21:03:15< AI0867> noy hasn't exactly moved fast on this, and he's changed his mind a few times, but last I heard (and wrote down) the plan was somewhere around these lines:
20130118 21:03:23< AI0867> bumbadadabum: I think we're all assuming northern
20130118 21:03:28< bumbadadabum> yeah
20130118 21:03:29< AI0867> given that the north is colder
20130118 21:03:37< bumbadadabum> but steppes are generally hot
20130118 21:03:54< AI0867> anyway, the idea is that settlers from wesnoth settle the estmarks fairly early on
20130118 21:04:10< bumbadadabum> The north is higher, that's another thing that can make it colder
20130118 21:04:37< bumbadadabum> or maybe Irdya doesn't even have the same kind of climate as the earth
20130118 21:04:41< AI0867> then at some point (I wrote down 127 YW, but that's just me) an orcish invasion hits the estmarks
20130118 21:05:51< AI0867> the settlers flee south across the desert and settle the foothills on the opposite side of the desert
20130118 21:06:07< AI0867> they expand along the desert's edge during the following centuries
20130118 21:07:08< AI0867> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Eastern_history <-- this is the unfinished history of EoS, with the kalifa tied in
20130118 21:08:18< AI0867> so for the kalifa, what is needed is a stretch of desert south of the estmarks, and a mountain range on the opposite border, possibly extending all the way to the hills south of lake aoir
20130118 21:09:08< AI0867> unrelated: I believe "lintanir forest" is just the southeastern edge of "lin-elens"/"the great forest"
20130118 21:10:17< AI0867> Geography_of_Wesnoth wiki page says as much: Lintanir Forest: The southernmost portion of the Great Northern Forest, a gigantic wood whose eastern and northern boundaries are known only the elves. Their capitol, Elensiria, has only seldom been visited by humans.
20130118 21:11:04< AI0867> of course, I don't recall that actually being supported by any campaign
20130118 21:11:55< zookeeper> AI0867, how's this for the general layout? http://imagebin.org/243324
20130118 21:12:08< zookeeper> of course i'll add the smaller patches of forest and stuff like that
20130118 21:12:31< zookeeper> and i'll need to make the border between the swamp and desert more natural rather than just a thin mountain range
20130118 21:13:05< AI0867> that looks compatible enough
20130118 21:13:18< zookeeper> also i could make the southern river from the huge lake connect to the southern bay, instead of lake aior
20130118 21:13:45< AI0867> it's even compatible with the kalifa thing if I make some minor changes to that story (which might even improve it)
20130118 21:22:53< zookeeper> it's becoming a real pain in the arse to edit the master version of the map, because it's so huge that paint.net can't really handle it smoothly. maybe i should scale it down from 5200x7263...
20130118 21:25:18< zookeeper> i presume the huge lake doesn't need to be a boring-shaped blob
20130118 21:31:55< zookeeper> AI0867, do noct and diurna and the river between them need to be close to lintanir?
20130118 21:56:08< zookeeper> AI0867, how's this? http://imagebin.org/243326
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20130118 23:47:12< AI0867> zookeeper: the elves need to be 'reachable' from noct&diurna, that is, they need to be able to conduct a war of some sort
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20130118 23:57:22< zookeeper> AI0867, ok, well, that's taken care of then
20130118 23:57:46< zookeeper> does the desert layout seem good?
--- Log closed Sat Jan 19 00:00:07 2013