--- Log opened Sat Feb 16 00:00:20 2013
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20130216 00:16:55< anonymissimus> does this look like a valid problem: http://pastebin.com/jWSiu09J ?
20130216 00:22:32< shadowm> Yes.
20130216 00:23:06< shadowm> It may suggest that someone missed a class or struct member field in a constructor initializer list.
20130216 00:23:39< shadowm> Along with a myriad of other possibilities that a C++ guru would be able to describe.
20130216 00:24:51< anonymissimus> hm, and more specifically, is the problem probably located inside of code which we can change (as opposed to something wesnoth depends on) ?
20130216 00:25:40< shadowm> I don't see any items in that backtrace that aren't our own code, or compiler-generated instantiations of Boost code from our own.
20130216 00:26:38< shadowm> Frame #1 in particular suggests that a BOOST_FOREACH loop led to the faulty path.
20130216 00:27:52< shadowm> It's weird that symbol demangling seems broken for frames #1, #2, #5, and #6, though.
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20130216 00:35:41< anonymissimus> shadowm: perhaps that's because it's an -o3 build ?
20130216 00:35:46< anonymissimus> -O3
20130216 00:35:56< anonymissimus> but with debug info
20130216 00:36:00< shadowm> Yeah, I don't know why anyone would do that.
20130216 00:36:04< anonymissimus> it was for this report https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?19624
20130216 00:36:18< anonymissimus> because that problem only showed up under such condition
20130216 00:36:21< shadowm> I mean, optimizing passes can rearrange code in a lot of ways.
20130216 00:36:34< shadowm> Backtraces tend to become useless because of that, even if you have debug information available.
20130216 00:36:44< shadowm> Oh.
20130216 00:36:55< anonymissimus> now I've posted what I can, perhaps something comes out of it...
20130216 00:37:03< anonymissimus> cio
20130216 00:37:09< shadowm> Okay, I don't know about that.
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20130216 04:11:35< irker774> wesnoth: alarantalara * r56323 /trunk/data/ai/lua/retreat.lua: 
20130216 04:11:35< irker774> wesnoth: Fix bug preventing regenerating units from retreating with experimental AI (thanks mattsc)
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20130216 09:37:56< mordante> servus
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20130216 10:07:46< irker774> wesnoth: mordante * r56324 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20130216 10:07:46< irker774> wesnoth: Increased the pango cairo dependency to 1.24.4.
20130216 10:07:47< irker774> wesnoth: Loonycyborg I didn't see a version check in SCons and I didn't add one,
20130216 10:07:47< irker774> wesnoth: please review.
20130216 10:07:50< irker774> wesnoth: mordante * r56325 /trunk/src/text.cpp: 
20130216 10:07:51< irker774> wesnoth: Remove pango version checks.
20130216 10:07:51< irker774> wesnoth: Since the required version is increased, the checks are no longer
20130216 10:07:51< irker774> wesnoth: required.
20130216 10:14:10< mordante> shadowm, (regarding r56288--r56297) I prefer small commits, I really wonder why you never complain about too large commits :-/
20130216 10:14:23< shadowm> Dear gods.
20130216 10:14:29< shadowm> It's been days and I no longer recall the context.
20130216 10:14:45< mordante> shadowm, catching up with the log
20130216 10:14:58< shadowm> Let me guess, it was about the Doxygen commits? Seriously, why would anyone need to revert any commit that just deals with Doxygen warnings?
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20130216 10:15:10< shadowm> Also, too large commits are not an issue when they are self-contained.
20130216 10:15:25< shadowm> I have complained about large commits in the past.
20130216 10:15:48< mordante> when a patch is self-contained it most of the time not too large
20130216 10:16:21< shadowm> Not sure how that is relevant for the very specific complaints I raised but okay.
20130216 10:16:59< mordante> I just prefer small patches that only do one thing so I see one set of doxygen fixes as one thing
20130216 10:17:22< shadowm> All the Doxygen fixes should be a single atomic thing.
20130216 10:17:43< shadowm> Unless you are running Doxygen on some files, fixing warnings, committing, running Doxygen again on another set of files, or something like that.
20130216 10:18:03< shadowm> Which would be quite a waste of time, to be honest.
20130216 10:18:50< mordante> I do it like that, I often fire it up while coding and fix them when waiting for a compiler run
20130216 10:19:13< mordante> I keep them in a separate checkout dedicated to cleanups
20130216 10:19:23< shadowm> Commits can be squashed together.
20130216 10:19:32< shadowm> This is known.
20130216 10:19:46< shadowm> Anyway, the Doxygen thing? Pretty small and irrelevant if you'd ask me.
20130216 10:19:50< mordante> I know
20130216 10:20:20< shadowm> The other thing I complained about? Not very small, and I really don't want to keep working in Wesnoth if that means a random developer is authorized to revert my commits without talking to me about it first.
20130216 10:20:23< mordante> I could have squashed the doxygen patches
20130216 10:20:49< shadowm> Seeing how that has happened to at least two other people without any discussion of the matter a priori, it is really concerning.
20130216 10:20:51< mordante> that commit ended up in that series by accident
20130216 10:23:26< shadowm> Okay, that is why I always make sure to check what I'm dcommitting before doing it.
20130216 10:24:32< shadowm> Or to actually write proper commit messages, even for internal stuff.
20130216 10:24:43< shadowm> Now that language thing? You two really need to talk.
20130216 10:25:07< shadowm> It's confusing for the rest of us and it's time we come up with some kind of policy we can follow in the future.
20130216 10:25:15< mordante> I usually check that as well, I missed it
20130216 10:25:23< shadowm> Both for user-facing APIs, and internal APIs.
20130216 10:26:03< mordante> for internal commits I often use not polished messages
20130216 10:26:14< mordante> I have several WIP message commits
20130216 10:26:19< mordante> Espreon, "The language of the project is en_US." citation needed _including_ the names of variables and functions
20130216 10:26:36< shadowm> Isn't that what I'm talking about.
20130216 10:26:46< shadowm> Oh let me guess, you are still on the backlog.
20130216 10:26:51< shadowm> Okay, that's kind of annoying. I'm out.
20130216 10:27:14< mordante> shadowm, he claims the project _is_ en_US, so I ask were that was stated
20130216 10:27:22< mordante> yes I'm still in the backlog
20130216 10:27:38< shadowm> I don't know about claiming. I don't care what people claim. It is time we make an OFFICIAL POLICY on the matter.
20130216 10:27:41< shadowm> Also other matters.
20130216 10:28:11< mordante> what other matters?
20130216 10:28:17< shadowm> I need to deal with some frustrating (and yet far less frustrating than nmainline Wesnoth) stuff first before I also get to propose an OFFICIAL POLICY on another matter.
20130216 10:28:21< shadowm> Namely, GUI practices.
20130216 10:28:52< shadowm> *GUI design
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20130216 10:36:30< mordante> shadowm, I know a good policy; don't start renaming random variables in the code
20130216 10:36:33< mordante> Espreon: you need to be joking about consistency, there are a whole bunch of coding styles and naming conversions in the code
20130216 10:37:12< shadowm> There was documentation mixed in that commit.
20130216 10:38:14< zookeeper> going around the codebase renaming stuff for linguistic consistency is utterly pointless and most likely annoying to a lot of people, unless you're actually working on that code yourself and want to clean it up
20130216 10:38:31< mordante> Espreon, the renaming silently broke not committed code using the virtual function initialise
20130216 10:38:41 * mordante fully agrees with zookeeper 
20130216 10:38:42< zookeeper> doing that for user-facing APIs is fine as long as you DON'T BREAK BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY FOR IT
20130216 10:39:00< mordante> shadowm, like I said it was committed by accident
20130216 10:39:16< shadowm> Okay, good that we settled that.
20130216 10:39:16< zookeeper> and having a wmllint rule doesn't mean you're not breaking backwards compatibility
20130216 10:39:20 * mordante agrees again with zookeeper 
20130216 10:39:25< shadowm> Now let's make sure we have actual policies people can follow in the future.
20130216 10:39:53< shadowm> Unless you intend to run wesnoth forever by yourselves with whatever unpublished policies you have.
20130216 10:41:08< mordante> shadowm, that's kind of weird from you, you have some GUI design policies you want to confirm code to, but I still don't know exactly what they are
20130216 10:41:26< mordante> I'm referring to the ones about capitalising
20130216 10:41:38< shadowm> mordante: You don't know what they are because I haven't prepared the proposal yet.
20130216 10:42:02< shadowm> However, there was enough precedent in mainline and a certain formerly popular desktop environment to make the first step towards that proposal.
20130216 10:42:45< mordante> ok, I thought you had since you've talked about them a long time ago and also made changes to the UI to make it conform to these changes
20130216 10:42:56< shadowm> Yes.
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20130216 10:44:22< shadowm> I assume you are completely unaware of what I'm up to most of the time. Yeah, I don't have time for bureaucracy (bureaucracy which as has been proven to be essential, unfortunately).
20130216 10:45:16< shadowm> But I will publish that proposal in the ML as soon as I can (read: feel like dealing with a lot of people either questioning or completely ignoring the proposal like it's the case for every goddamn post I make in the devs ML).
20130216 10:45:18 * mordante is confused
20130216 10:45:47< shadowm> And talking about proposals.
20130216 10:45:50< shadowm> wesbot: seen Ivanovic
20130216 10:45:51< wesbot> shadowm: Queried user Ivanovic is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-de.
20130216 10:46:02< shadowm> Yeah wesbot okay, could you tell me when he last spoke?
20130216 10:48:24< mordante> shadowm, since Espreon promised not to change to source, Win32 locales file, again I guess I don't need to fear getting my variables to be renamed
20130216 10:48:42< shadowm> mordante: You should fear.
20130216 10:48:52< shadowm> That wasn't so much a promise as him being facetious about the matter.
20130216 10:49:07< mordante> shadowm, I see it as a promise
20130216 10:49:12< shadowm> However, I would not be very happy if my variables were renamed either.
20130216 10:52:01< mordante> jamit regarding r56153, still not sure how useful it is, expecially since our random generator returns ints
20130216 10:52:13< mordante> I see the code used a long before as well, not sure why
20130216 10:52:34< mordante> I also think long is a bad choice, its size depends on the platform
20130216 10:53:01< mordante> if we want to store it in a 64-bit value, we'd better use an explicit 64-bit type
20130216 11:05:55< mordante> anonymissimus valgrind has the --log-file=<filename> option to log into a file
20130216 11:06:29< shadowm> Ah, good to know. I've always used intricate tee pipelines.
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20130216 12:40:24< loonycyborg> mordante: There weren't any version checks it seems
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20130216 13:10:02< irker774> wesnoth: loonycyborg * r56326 /trunk/ (scons/pango.py SConstruct): 
20130216 13:10:03< irker774> wesnoth: Added version check for pango to scons
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20130216 13:28:32< mordante> thanks for the fix loonycyborg 
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20130216 13:43:30< jamit> mordante: The random generator returns 15-bit values (int is guaranteed 16+ bits by the C++ standard), while WML's rand= supports up to 0x3fffffff choices (30 bits; long is guaranteed 32+ bits by the C++ standard).
20130216 13:43:43< jamit> So it is not a 64 bit value.
20130216 13:44:29< jamit> It looks like those long's used to be int's before r6086, which was a multi-task commit. Presumably that change fell under "Fixed some compile-time warnings".
20130216 13:46:26< jamit> Given the de facto standards used by compilers, I guess int really is adequate, but it does look questionable to take the difference of two long's and expect to hold that in an int.
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20130216 13:51:34< jamit> mordante, shadowm: regarding capitalization policies, I recall seeing something about that. Let's see... http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UI_Style_Guide -- is still a work in progress?
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20130216 13:52:18< shadowm> It is not "canonical".
20130216 13:52:33< jamit> Ah.
20130216 13:53:03< shadowm> It's something Espreon and some random guy worked on behind the scenes without telling anyone and (in some parts) without even accurately following existing practice, within Wesnoth or otherwise.
20130216 13:53:31< shadowm> I intend to produce a usable proposal using that and existing practice as basis.
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20130216 13:53:41< shadowm> Have I mentioned existing practice yet?
20130216 13:53:46< shadowm> I like existing practice.
20130216 13:54:10< shadowm> Especially when it comes to UI design.
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20130216 13:55:07< jamit> Oh, I see the disclaimer now. The link to that page from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Create_Writing does call it a draft. I skimmed over that when I was just looking for links.
20130216 13:55:45< jamit> Probably should be something to that effect on the page itself, though.
20130216 13:56:17< jamit> Oh, it is there. "This is a draft style guide". I'm just doing horribly at reading today.
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20130216 14:23:29< mordante> jamit, ok, just wanted you to be aware the random values were an int
20130216 14:24:29< mordante> jamit, just curious but does the C++ standard really guarantee 0x3fffffff becomes a 32+ bit value?
20130216 14:25:51< mordante> jamit, regarding the UI page I do not recall having seen it before
20130216 14:27:42< jamit> Well, it is a 30-bit value, regardless of C++ standards. So it will fit in 32 bits (long).
20130216 14:29:04< mordante> yeah of course, I just recall the C++ standard, goes in great lengths, not define the width of types so a 30-bit int would be allowed
20130216 14:31:49< jamit> Yes, I think it could become a 30 bit value, but the issue is not really the minimum for holding the value "0x3fffffff", but having a type that is guaranteed to be able to hold it.
20130216 14:32:58< jamit> The compiler could use 30-bit ints, and default to making 0x3fffffff a 30-bit int, but then it gets compared to a long, so gets promoted to whatever a long is (at least 32 bits).
20130216 14:33:27< AI0867> there are some archs that have 16 bit ints, but I don't thin k we support any of those
20130216 14:36:25< jamit> On the other hand, a compiler could use 29-bit ints (not going to happen, but for the sake of argument), and then trying to store 0x3fffffff in an int would cause an overflow.
20130216 14:36:47< mordante> no I think a lot of our code expects ints to be at least 32-bit
20130216 14:37:09< jamit> In practice, the change from "int" to "long" probably results in no change to any binaries, but it makes the source code more consistent.
20130216 14:38:38< jamit> If you really want those to not be longs, they could be switched back to int, but then the other longs should also be int for consistency.
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20130216 14:41:02< mordante> no I don't mind
20130216 14:42:08< mjs-de> some machines have 64bit long
20130216 14:42:34< mordante> (I also expect the symbol name in the binary to change)
20130216 14:42:55< jamit> Personally I like using long in that case because a 16-bit value would be inadequate. And even if other parts of the code assume int is 32-bits, we don't have to assume that everywhere.
20130216 14:43:46< jamit> mjs-de: Isn't it only 64-bit machines with 64-bit long?
20130216 14:44:48< mordante> if you really want to be able to assume the size, best use uint_leastxx_t ;-)
20130216 14:45:06< mjs-de> depends, it isn´t specified, all 32bit machines i know have 32 bit long
20130216 14:45:47< mjs-de> some 64bit (unix 64bit) have 64bit long, some 64bit (windows x86_64) have 32bit long
20130216 14:46:59< jamit> As long as "long" is not bigger than the word size, I don't see a problem using it.
20130216 14:47:34< mordante> I think it was on the 80386
20130216 14:47:52< mjs-de> that´s not guarenteed
20130216 14:48:02< jamit> mordante: probably int_fast32_t would be better in this case. We don't necessarily need "least", and allowing signed values looks better when taking differences. ;)
20130216 14:49:08< mjs-de> i don´t know the constraints, but if you need guarantees on bitsize, int*_t int_least*_t and int_fast*_t are the way to go
20130216 14:49:13< jamit> Let me amend that: As long as "long" is not bigger than the word size *or "int" is too small (as on the 80386)*, I don't see a problem using it. :P
20130216 14:49:28< mordante> :-)
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20130216 14:54:48< AI0867> i386 = ILP32LL64, amd64/win = IL32LLP64, amd64/linux = I32LP64
20130216 15:01:50< AI0867> mordante: I see you've updated the umcd design document as recently as last month
20130216 15:02:36< jamit> loonycyborg: For some reason, scons can no longer find the Pango headers on my system as of r56326.
20130216 15:03:13< loonycyborg> And what are error messages?
20130216 15:04:18< jamit> It gets as far as compiling game.cpp and complains: "src/gui/widgets/helper.hpp:23:32: error: pango/pango-layout.h: No such file or directory"
20130216 15:05:03< mordante> AI0867, I did?
20130216 15:05:55< loonycyborg> pkg-config --libs --cflags --atleast-version=1.20.4 pangocairo
20130216 15:06:04< loonycyborg> What's the output of this command for you?
20130216 15:06:39< jamit> nothing
20130216 15:07:09< loonycyborg> pkg-config --libs --cflags pangocairo
20130216 15:07:12< loonycyborg> And this one?
20130216 15:07:41< loonycyborg> Also,
20130216 15:08:04< loonycyborg> kg-config --libs --cflags pangocairo>=1.20.4
20130216 15:08:10< loonycyborg> *pkg-config
20130216 15:08:46< jamit> -pthread -D_REENTRANT -I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/directfb -I/usr/include/libpng12  -pthread -lpangocairo-1.0 -lpango-1.0 -lcairo -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lglib-2.0
20130216 15:09:02< AI0867> or not, that's just what the modification date on my filesystem said...
20130216 15:09:15< loonycyborg> pkg-config --libs --cflags pangocairo>=1.24.4
20130216 15:09:25< jamit> Nothing on the that last one.
20130216 15:10:14< jamit> Also nothing when checking for 1.24.4
20130216 15:11:12< loonycyborg> pkg-config --libs --cflags "pangocairo >= 1.24.4"
20130216 15:11:22< AI0867> mordante: any particular issues you have with the current campaignd?
20130216 15:11:51< jamit> That one is working
20130216 15:12:12< loonycyborg> so --atleast-version doesn't work with your pkg-config
20130216 15:12:26< jamit> I guess not.
20130216 15:13:05< AI0867> my connection is a bit flaky
20130216 15:13:22< AI0867> the DSL connection is fine, but my modem keeps dropping its IP
20130216 15:14:21< jamit> Heh. I should have caught the quote problem. The output did get redirected to files called "=1.20.4" and "=1.24.4". Deleting them.
20130216 15:15:55< mordante> AI0867, no real issues, but still like to have if working better with translations
20130216 15:16:19< mordante> so still a project I want to work on, once I have a bit more time
20130216 15:17:10< loonycyborg> jamit: http://pastebin.com/6jrVrb36
20130216 15:17:31< loonycyborg> Try this patch
20130216 15:22:49< jamit> loonycyborg: The patch worked.
20130216 15:23:02< loonycyborg> Then feel free to commit it
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20130216 15:25:41< loonycyborg> Or I'll do it :P
20130216 15:26:14< jamit> Well, it is your patch...
20130216 15:26:58< jamit> My system is Ubuntu 10.04, in case you want to mention that in the commit message.
20130216 15:30:32< irker774> wesnoth: loonycyborg * r56327 /trunk/scons/pango.py: 
20130216 15:30:32< irker774> wesnoth: Don't use pkg-config's --atleast-version arg when checking for pango
20130216 15:30:33< irker774> wesnoth: It doesn't seem to work with some versions of pkg-config, e.g. the one
20130216 15:30:33< irker774> wesnoth: found on Ubuntu 10.04
20130216 15:33:33< AI0867> mordante: I was hacking at some derivative of wesnothd_client yesterday and realized a few hours in that an exact clone of campaignd probably isn't what we want
20130216 15:44:01< mordante> AI0867, no that's why I started the umcd document
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20130216 17:11:40< irker774> wesnoth: mordante * r56328 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20130216 17:11:41< irker774> wesnoth: Avoid click dismissing moving a unit.
20130216 17:11:41< irker774> wesnoth: When click dismissing a dialogue in the past the DOWN event was used.
20130216 17:11:42< irker774> wesnoth: This lead to a bug. The obvious change was to switch to the UP event,
20130216 17:11:42< irker774> wesnoth: this lead to another bug; the dialogue was directly dismissed. Since
20130216 17:11:43< irker774> wesnoth: the game map code uses the UP and DOWN event to select a unit there is
20130216 17:11:43< irker774> wesnoth: no simple solution.
20130216 17:11:44< irker774> wesnoth: (Log message trimmed.)
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20130216 19:13:51< irker774> wesnoth: boucman * r56329 /trunk/ (200 files in 19 dirs): 
20130216 19:13:51< irker774> wesnoth: apply patch 3682 by Coffee: make image a progressive parameter+big WML simplification
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20130216 19:49:59< Espreon> 10:38 < mordante> Espreon, the renaming silently broke not committed code using the virtual function initialise
20130216 19:50:06< Espreon> ... Why am I not surprised?
20130216 19:50:50< Espreon> Though I'm just not going to care about this right now, for I do not have enough energy to care.
20130216 19:54:31< Espreon> shadowm: esr was aware of that project (to a degree, at least). Now, if you wish to refine what was established, be my guest.
20130216 19:57:46< Espreon> No, wait, I don't think esr was aware of the production of that page, but he was aware of the project that spawned it.
20130216 19:58:05< Espreon> The dash conversion thingy.
20130216 20:01:01< Espreon> Now, I'll just STFU.
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20130216 20:07:05< AI0867> loonycyborg: any particular reason why *err_connection is assigned to err_sock, sock possibly gets assigned to err_sock and then if err_sock, the disconnection happens to *err_connection?
20130216 20:08:03< loonycyborg> Line? 
20130216 20:08:26< AI0867> campaign_server.cpp:575 or so
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20130216 20:12:28< loonycyborg> sock variable could still contain valid connection
20130216 20:13:17< loonycyborg> So we should still use it if no error_info is provided
20130216 20:17:08< AI0867> yes
20130216 20:17:34< AI0867> but you only assign sock to err_sock if err_sock is zero and sock is not
20130216 20:17:56< AI0867> and you then disconnect whatever was in *err_connection, if err_sock is set
20130216 20:24:59< loonycyborg> heh. It looks like a brainfart on my part
20130216 20:26:09< AI0867> well, I'm checking the logs, and it doesn't look like that particular codepath has ever been executed
20130216 20:27:15< loonycyborg> It'll be caused by invalid data from client
20130216 20:27:32< AI0867> ah, I'm wrong
20130216 20:27:39< AI0867> grep finally turned up a result
20130216 20:28:49< AI0867> well, I see 4 successful executions
20130216 20:29:02< AI0867> an unsuccessful one would probably segfault
20130216 20:29:08< loonycyborg> Indeed
20130216 20:30:33< AI0867> so, still no ideas what is causing #20477
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20130216 21:36:31< irker774> wesnoth: mordante * r56330 /trunk/src/unit_types.hpp: 
20130216 21:36:32< irker774> wesnoth: Use boost::noncopyable to avoid copying a class.
20130216 21:40:58< mordante> esr, I see you hate pointers ;-)
20130216 21:41:22< esr> mordante: :-)
20130216 21:42:43< esr> EVERYBODY:  if you're not on the dev mailing list, read this *now*: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4824
20130216 21:43:24< mordante> and I'm so happy I use - for listings ;-)
20130216 21:43:43< mordante> but I agree listings are often a sign of too large commits
20130216 21:44:02-!- shadowm_desktop [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130216 21:44:07< shadowm> ... That's not what the message is about.
20130216 21:44:25< esr> Not entirely, no.
20130216 21:45:04< shadowm> I'm guilty of using * and letting my text editor extend it to multiple lines in non-list contexts in the past.
20130216 21:45:10< shadowm> You could be a bit more subtle about it?
20130216 21:45:39< shadowm> This is yet another thing I've been complaining about as of late. We don't really have policies for commit messages.
20130216 21:45:42< shadowm> 17:36:30 <irker774> wesnoth: mordante * r56330 /trunk/src/unit_types.hpp: 
20130216 21:45:42< shadowm> 17:36:30 <irker774> wesnoth: Use boost::noncopyable to avoid copying a class.
20130216 21:45:42-!- Sapient [~sapient@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130216 21:45:43< esr> What would the point of subtlety have been here?
20130216 21:45:53< Sapient> yo
20130216 21:46:00< shadowm> Here we have a commit message whose first line looks like a sentence from a message body instead of a message subject
20130216 21:46:04< shadowm> Notice the trailing stop.
20130216 21:46:14< shadowm> Oh, and it's also not mine.
20130216 21:46:32< mordante> hi Sapient 
20130216 21:46:40< Sapient> hi mordante 
20130216 21:47:42< shadowm> We also have multiple commit messages in which the subject and the description are both in a single line.
20130216 21:47:50< esr> Changing to a new VCS is a good time to clean up our practice, especially since I have to do a hand-editing pass over the old comments anyway to lift references. 
20130216 21:48:19< shadowm> esr: Cleaning up existing practice will _not_ be enough.
20130216 21:48:35< shadowm> You will need to establish an official policy people must read and follow.
20130216 21:49:00< shadowm> Otherwise it will continue to happen unless you are about to change our upstream commit pathway model too.
20130216 21:49:01< mordante> shadowm, what's wrong with one subject line and one description line?
20130216 21:49:06< esr> Note to all German speakers:  "to split" is a strong verb in English; the past participle is not "splitted" but "split".
20130216 21:49:11< shadowm> mordante: No, noth in the same single line.
20130216 21:49:14< shadowm> *both
20130216 21:49:32< mordante> ah ok then I misunderstood
20130216 21:50:12< esr> Maybe I'll take that post and put it on the wiki in the dev guidelines.  Thanks for the idea, Shadowmaster.
20130216 21:50:24< mordante> and I use a full stop since I compose the first line as sentence
20130216 21:50:38< shadowm> How about you make sure a certain project manager links it to every random person he approves as a developer in the future too?
20130216 21:50:55< shadowm> Because people just get the Developer passcard and that's it atm.
20130216 21:51:04< esr> Dunno hhow to do *that*. :-)
20130216 21:51:25< shadowm> As a result we've had several ugly incidents in the past.
20130216 21:51:41< shadowm> A lot of who-he-shall-not-be-named people.
20130216 21:51:55< mordante> not to pessimistic, but how do you want to enforce everybody following the policy?
20130216 21:52:04< shadowm> That's my point.
20130216 21:52:22< shadowm> If esr wants to go through all this extra work, he should ensure it isn't wasted later.
20130216 21:53:11< shadowm> Especially if he wants to showcase a very specific instance from myself from 2008 as his "Don't do this" specimen.
20130216 21:54:11< Gambit> If anyone has some thoughts on reorganizing the forums, please see this thread: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38222
20130216 21:55:25< mordante> I don't have much thoughts on reorganising the forums, I don't follow it too closely
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20130216 21:57:46< ChrisOelmueller> you enforce that kind of policy by making people see how it helps them, usually
20130216 21:58:23< shadowm> Yeah, I attempted to evangelize proper commits amongst another Git user crowd and got punched in the gut for that.
20130216 21:58:37< shadowm> One member of that crowd happens to be a committer here. I shall not name any names.
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20130216 22:05:13< mordante> ChrisOelmueller, yeah, that should work in theory, however often the theory and practice don't match
20130216 22:05:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 163 bugs, 333 feature requests, 17 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130216 22:07:02< Sapient> ha, I personally am guilty of the bullet points svn comments with no summary line. In my opinion, if it's worth reading my commit message, it's worth reading the whole thing. Adding a top line works against being concise and the real reason is to appease external tools that rely on a bad assumption
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20130216 22:07:37< Sapient> * maybe I should have typed it like this ^^ ;)
20130216 22:07:49< ChrisOelmueller> the "external" is another bad assumption there
20130216 22:07:58< mordante> I think git did great things to make summary lines more popular
20130216 22:08:13< ChrisOelmueller> just because svn log is unusable doesn't mean you can't make git log useful
20130216 22:08:41< ChrisOelmueller> and yes, bullet point messages were fancy during our svn times too, we're better now
20130216 22:09:01< Sapient> I don't see how this is a great feature of git
20130216 22:09:19< mordante> what git log or the summaries?
20130216 22:09:40< Sapient> personally I never used git so I may not be the best judge of that
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20130216 22:10:56< Sapient> so esr can pry my * key from my cold dead fingers :p
20130216 22:11:14< shadowm> Meaningful commit messages make it far easier to find changes in a git log view than revision numbers or commit SHA1 hashes.
20130216 22:11:40< shadowm> That is, when you don't have a more specific reference (a diff line or path) handy.
20130216 22:13:08< Sapient> bullets aren't meaningful?
20130216 22:13:56< shadowm> Not when they are not denoting a list context, or when the commit lacks a subject line, IMO.
20130216 22:13:57< ChrisOelmueller> not if you only see the first one which for many svn commits hides lots of unrelated changes, no
20130216 22:14:08< shadowm> esr's opinion is a tad more heavy-handed than that.
20130216 22:15:17< shadowm> The message structure I use nowadays is very simple: subject line, empty line, message body (which may or may not include bulleted lists).
20130216 22:16:08< Sapient> I prefer to let my bullets do the talkin'
20130216 22:16:38< Sapient> reach fer the sky
20130216 22:17:29< esr> Sapient: If you can't write a summary line, your commit is doing too many unrelated things.
20130216 22:17:44< esr> There was some excuse for that under SVN...
20130216 22:18:34< esr> ...because the client tools were so slow that they pushed up the natural grain size of commit
20130216 22:18:47< esr> But git is different.
20130216 22:20:53< Sapient> so git encourages commiting things that don't work at all (yet)?
20130216 22:20:55< shadowm> I don't agree that is the real reason.
20130216 22:21:11< mordante> I'm off night
20130216 22:21:26< shadowm> The real reason for svn encouraging large commits is that for most of its lifecycle there was no way to stage individual changesets before committing upstream.
20130216 22:22:04-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20130216 22:22:07< shadowm> (Then some obscure feature to deal with that was introduced, but guess what, it's obscure and not fully analogous to what can be done in a DVCS like Git or Mercurial).
20130216 22:23:06< shadowm> (Noting that git stash and git commit -p didn't always exist either, so that may also have encouraged lazy commits for some newcomers in unrestricted environments.)
20130216 22:23:34< Sapient> you would really hate the workflow at my current company, where they encourage us to bundle as many changes as possible into a single commit
20130216 22:23:50< Sapient> it does make me a bit nervous about losing work
20130216 22:24:40< shadowm> Commercial organizations that need to get stuff done for the sake of a contract/deadline/money tend to opt for more chaotic approaches to that kind of thing.
20130216 22:24:51< shadowm> Also code documentation.
20130216 22:25:02< Sapient> I usually save a patch of all my local changes at the end of the day.. just in case
20130216 22:25:31< shadowm> Woe betide whoever replaces whoever left Acme Corp and needs to deal with 100,000 lines of barely documented sloppy code.
20130216 22:26:22< Sapient> well, the reason they prefer it in one bundle is because it works better for their code review process, which is very thorough
20130216 22:27:45< shadowm> I don't know about thorough code review processes, but if the LKML and ALSA mailing lists are any indication, other people's definition of "thorough code reviews" includes demanding splitting any patches that are doing more than one thing at once.
20130216 22:28:20< shadowm> And that seems to be what is being promoted here to a rather excessive and less justified extent.
20130216 22:30:59< esr> Code review is more difficult when the patch graiun size is large.
20130216 22:31:20< Sapient> so you would think
20130216 22:32:05< shadowm> Anyway, I'll let you have your "corporate vs. open source" development model debate here. I'm off to a less frustrating land for now.
20130216 22:32:44< Sapient> ok, sorry I couldn't think of any better bullet related puns
20130216 22:33:59< Sapient> I will, uh... aim higher... next time
20130216 22:34:09< shadowm> esr: But yeah, if you are going to write documentation on the matter, please do not use anyone's real commit messagge and refspec as an example of anything.
20130216 22:34:41< shadowm> I do feel offended by your non-subtle approach, and I know you don't care.
20130216 22:34:52< shadowm> *messages and refspecs
20130216 22:34:52< Sapient> ha, I don't mind if you use mine
20130216 22:41:53< Sapient> so, is it normal for open source projects to include *.txt files with unix line endings?
20130216 22:42:11< Sapient> or is that a mistake and it should be changed to DOS line endings?
20130216 22:44:30< Soliton> depends.
20130216 22:44:53< Sapient> I am guessing that I need to change it to DOS line endings, set svn:eol-style=native, then commit it
20130216 22:46:06< Soliton> if you're on windows that sounds good.
20130216 22:47:12< Sapient> ok thanks
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 17 00:00:23 2013