--- Log opened Tue Feb 19 00:00:16 2013
20130219 00:03:43-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 00:10:01-!- csarmi [~csarmi@195-38-105-97.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20130219 00:22:28-!- csarmi [~csarmi@94-21-126-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 00:31:55< shadowm> mattsc: So I'm finally looking at the implementation of that "priority target engine" AI demo. The files I need to read and understand are /AI-demos/micro_ais/scenarios/protect-unit.cfg and /AI-demos/micro_ais/ais/priority_target_engine.lua, right?
20130219 00:33:25< shadowm> Hm. :(
20130219 00:33:26< mattsc> shadowm: correct
20130219 00:33:36< shadowm> Okay.
20130219 00:33:56-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@92.224.180.97] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 00:34:36 * shadowm tries a brute-force approach first to see if he can skip the "read and understand" step.
20130219 00:35:16< mattsc> I think I have said it before that this particular AI is essentially just WML coded in Lua.  So it should be doable entirely in WML (I think).
20130219 00:37:41< shadowm> http://pastebin.com/sygjUjEz <- Well, that modify_ai.candidate_action block sounds very Lua-specific.
20130219 00:39:36< mattsc> But I think you could replace it by a WML code block.
20130219 00:39:40< shadowm> I'm skimming through documentation and CAs seem to be intended to be implemented either in Lua or formulas.
20130219 00:40:10< mattsc> In an attack event.  (But to be honest, I really haven't thought this through and it's been quite a while since I wrote this)
20130219 00:40:45< mattsc> That's correct, but I think that you don't need an actual CA here.
20130219 00:40:53< shadowm> Attack events fire once a player (AI or otherwise) has already chosen its target.
20130219 00:41:12< shadowm> The target cannot be changed AFAIK unless the unit on the attack target location is replaced.
20130219 00:41:21< mattsc> That is also correct.
20130219 00:41:35< mattsc> But all this CA does is to change the target list for the next attack.
20130219 00:41:43< shadowm> (Everything after the "AFAIK" is just speculation on my part. I don't really know how the engine deals with unexpected gamestate changes mid-attack.)
20130219 00:42:26< mattsc> This priority target AI is really just a dirty trick I am using.
20130219 00:42:26< shadowm> Hm, yeah.
20130219 00:42:44< shadowm> So maybe that could be done in a side <whatever> turn refresh event handler.
20130219 00:42:47< mattsc> I am changing the list of targets based on whether a specific target is available.
20130219 00:43:09< mattsc> Yeah, I think you need one of those, but you also need to change it after each attack (and possibly move)
20130219 00:44:29< mattsc> All that is only if you want to stay with WML only though, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to use this code more or less as is.
20130219 00:45:01< shadowm> I heard from Crab_ once that Lua support in the AI code in 1.9.x/1.10.x was kind of incomplete or something.
20130219 00:45:28< shadowm> I haven't tried this demo on 1.10.x yet, only trunk, and my campaign needs to run reliably both on 1.10.x and trunk.
20130219 00:46:01< mattsc> There are some features that won't work in 1.10, that is correct.  None of them is used here.
20130219 00:46:25< mattsc> I am pretty sure that I wrote this before 1.11.0 came out.
20130219 00:49:03< mattsc> shadowm: fyi, I'll have to leave in 10 min and will be gone for 2-3 hours.  Do you have any urgent questions?
20130219 00:51:37< shadowm> Yes.
20130219 00:52:03< shadowm> Well, not too urgent, because I do not have to ship this _today_. :)
20130219 00:52:14< shadowm> But how would I go about establishing multiple priority targets?
20130219 00:53:12< shadowm> Changing the Lua part of the implementation so it accepts a list of unit ids would probably be the easiest solution.
20130219 00:54:15< mattsc> Yeah, I think that's what I would do.
20130219 00:54:24-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@st0801.nas931.n-yokohama.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 00:54:52< mattsc> That's what we do in other AIs.  Or you could change it so that it accepts a SUF.
20130219 00:55:21< shadowm> Right, but then the choice would necessarily be deterministic.
20130219 00:56:29< shadowm> I would probably prefer to introduce some randomness in a situation where I have two high priority targets and both of them are reachable.
20130219 00:57:12< mattsc> Sure, that shouldn't be a problem.
20130219 00:57:36< mattsc> I need to be off, sorry for that.
20130219 00:57:45< shadowm> No worries.
20130219 00:57:48< mattsc> I'll stay logged in, will check this when I get back.
20130219 01:00:34< shadowm>             -- This gets set to >0 if unit that can attack target is found
20130219 01:00:36< shadowm>             local target_in_reach = 0
20130219 01:00:49< shadowm> ^ Sounds like something that should probably be a boolean value instead.
20130219 01:01:28< shadowm> The code only checks whether target_in_reach is ever greater than zero and never passes the value along to anything else.
20130219 01:02:22< shadowm> Anyway it'll be more useful for my use case to make that a table instead.
20130219 01:25:16-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 01:32:18-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20130219 01:33:44< shadowm> Argh.
20130219 01:34:39< shadowm> It seems the Lua AI code in 1.10 doesn't take kindly to mistakes: http://pastebin.com/sttrGVZP
20130219 01:39:28< shadowm> Hm, okay. I fixed all the syntax errors and I guess I screwed something up because it doesn't work.
20130219 01:39:37< shadowm> Is the version=10710 attribute specification essential for anything?
20130219 01:39:48< shadowm> (In the [ai] tag.)
20130219 01:41:51< shadowm> Ah, never mind, the Lua code _is_ running. It's just that _I_ must have screwed up the unit choice criteria.
20130219 02:01:41-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 02:09:26-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 02:09:43-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 02:12:36-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20130219 02:19:44-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 02:21:43-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 02:25:53< shadowm> Hm, looks like once again I've fallen victim to an overly-lenient language where variables don't need to be predeclared.
20130219 02:30:44-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 02:30:58< shadowm> Nope, that's not all that's going on. Argh.
20130219 02:32:00< shadowm> Oh... never mind. mattsc's code filters on attackers for whom canrecruit = no.
20130219 02:35:56< shadowm> Now let's see how this deals with an AI side with multiple units.
20130219 02:40:41< shadowm> esr: I don't know if you are aware of r43606 by Eleazar? How much space do you think could be saved by stripping that and the subsequent revert commit?
20130219 02:40:52-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 02:41:17-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 02:41:18-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 02:41:46< shadowm> !log r43606
20130219 02:41:48< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision 43606 (eleazar) on Sun Jun 20 01:44:47 2010:
20130219 02:41:48< shikadibot> shadowm: uploading the Mac OsX Xcode project as requested by AI.  I believe i'm doing it right, if not, my appologies.  It works for me at the monment.
20130219 02:41:51< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=43606
20130219 02:41:53< shadowm> !log r43607
20130219 02:41:56< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision 43607 (shadowmaster) on Sun Jun 20 03:10:36 2010:
20130219 02:41:56< shikadibot> shadowm: Revert r43606 from Eleazar.
20130219 02:41:56< shikadibot> shadowm:  
20130219 02:41:59< shikadibot> shadowm: We all don't need > 5,000 additional files on our hard disks trying to
20130219 02:42:02< shikadibot> shadowm: (+2 discarded lines)
20130219 02:42:05< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=43607
20130219 02:43:31-!- Octalot [~noct@host86-148-68-137.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
20130219 02:43:54< shadowm> Running git show --stat on that shows me that it's primarily C or C++ code, but there are also some binaries (.dylib files) mixed in.
20130219 02:44:23< shadowm> (Also .so files.)
20130219 02:56:07-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 03:05:46-!- Crendgrim_ [~crend@port-92-204-89-40.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 03:09:51-!- Crendgrim [~crend@port-92-204-86-254.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 03:12:01< Alarantalara> shadowm: apart from project.pbxproj, none of the files in http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/MacOSX/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/?limit_changes=0&pathrev=43606 should be in the repository, they're generated user files
20130219 03:12:46< shadowm> Alarantalara: I believe I reverted the commit entirely.
20130219 03:12:47< mattsc> shadowm: Wesnoth used to crash on any error inside the Lua AI code.  That was fixed by nephro (for 1.11.0, I believe).
20130219 03:12:55< shadowm> Whatever happened afterwards is not my businness.
20130219 03:12:58< shadowm> *business.
20130219 03:13:06< Alarantalara> oh, nevermind then
20130219 03:13:23< shadowm> Alarantalara: Or _before_ the commit, in this case.
20130219 03:13:32< shadowm> Probably.
20130219 03:13:52< shadowm> I'm sure esr can do the commit ancestry tracking thing better than I could do.
20130219 03:18:04< AI0867> esr: someone did a search for 'wesnoth' on github recently
20130219 03:18:23< AI0867> the result is: all iphone/android/blackberry ports are on there
20130219 03:18:37< AI0867> some people decided to dump the contents of our svn repo there
20130219 03:18:50< AI0867> and some people just decided to mirror their git-svn checkout there
20130219 03:19:01< AI0867> none of them seem to have received any complaints
20130219 03:19:25< shadowm> Oleg was amongst those people, for CI purposes. Then he dropped off the grid.
20130219 03:20:37< shadowm> mattsc: Thanks for your help. I got that mess working without any 1.10.x-specific changes. :)
20130219 03:20:51< shadowm> (Although half of it is still black magic to me.)
20130219 03:27:57< mattsc> shadowm: great (I saw your commit over in the other channel)  If I can shed any light on the sorcery, let me know.  :)
20130219 03:28:52< mattsc> And my guess about the target_in_reach declaration was that I either was going to do something else with it later, or simply didn't know what I was doing.  Probably the latter.
20130219 03:33:45-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@dhip-029.rrw.residences.colby.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20130219 03:33:49-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 03:35:15-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@92.224.180.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 03:38:11-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:01:40-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4d0bf5d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:04:28-!- }Relic{ [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:04:28-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20130219 04:05:06-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4d0bf5d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 04:05:06-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:05:23-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 04:05:33-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 04:05:55-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20130219 04:08:10-!- }Relic{ [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 04:09:02-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:10:58-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:18:57-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:33:51-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 04:34:23-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:51:46-!- exciton_ [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 04:55:08-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20130219 04:55:55-!- Upthorn [~ogmar@108-85-91-228.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 05:00:12-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db23403.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 05:03:42-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20130219 05:04:27-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db23403.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20130219 05:16:41-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db23403.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 05:16:41-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db23403.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 05:16:41-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 05:31:57-!- Gambit [~gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 05:39:26-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20130219 05:58:47-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 05:59:58-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 06:10:17-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20130219 06:21:22-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 06:30:39-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 06:57:01-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20130219 07:02:21-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-32-241.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
20130219 07:23:57< shadowm> esr: What does the wmllint: no-syntax-rewrite directive do?
20130219 07:25:41< shadowm> I'm not sure I can read this Python, but it seems like wmllint skips all conversions for the rest of the file once it encounters that directive?
20130219 07:31:56< vultraz> esr: wmlindent stops indenting if it comes across pango markup
20130219 07:33:54< vultraz> such as message={MENU_IMG_TXT (misc/check2.png) ( _ "<span color='#e1e119' weight='bold'>Done</span>")}
20130219 07:34:15< vultraz> Past such line, it won't do anything
20130219 07:38:40-!- Sapient [~sapient@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 07:40:14< Sapient> I can't read the email addresses in this message https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2013-02/msg00028.html
20130219 07:40:30< Sapient> but my email address does not start with sapient
20130219 07:41:52< Sapient> it is listed here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Credits and unfortunately someone removed the obfuscation which prevented it being scraped by automated utilities
20130219 07:42:41-!- Sapient [~sapient@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 07:44:40-!- irker305 [~irker@ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 07:44:40< irker305> wesnoth: shadowmaster * r56343 /trunk/ (data/tools/wmllint changelog): 
20130219 07:44:40< irker305> wesnoth: wmllint: ids in [time_area] are not associated to units most of the time
20130219 07:44:41< irker305> wesnoth: The exception is when the [time_area] action is part of an event and
20130219 07:44:41< irker305> wesnoth: it contains an id-based SUF inside an SLF, but that should be rare
20130219 07:44:42< irker305> wesnoth: enough.
20130219 07:45:47< shadowm> What a damn second...
20130219 07:45:50< shadowm> *Wait
20130219 07:51:22< irker305> wesnoth: shadowmaster * r56344 /branches/1.10/ (data/tools/wmllint changelog): 
20130219 07:51:23< irker305> wesnoth: wmllint: Fix complaints about unknown ids in [time_area]
20130219 07:51:23< irker305> wesnoth: (Backported from trunk, r55047.)
20130219 07:51:35< irker305> wesnoth: shadowmaster * r56345 /trunk/ (data/tools/wmllint changelog): 
20130219 07:51:35< irker305> wesnoth: Revert "wmllint: ids in [time_area] are not associated to units most of the time"
20130219 07:51:36< irker305> wesnoth: Done already in r55047 by anonymissimus.
20130219 07:51:36< irker305> wesnoth: This reverts commit r56343.
20130219 07:58:05-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@CPEc0c1c09e8055-CM00252eac6d62.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20130219 08:14:43-!- csarmi [~csarmi@94-21-126-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 08:48:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 08:51:57-!- boucman_work [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 08:54:51-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: i go nstuf kthxbai]
20130219 09:08:10-!- skyfaller_ [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 09:09:15-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 09:45:55-!- cjhopman [~chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 09:46:00-!- hopman- [~chris@50-193-32-122-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 09:46:16-!- Crendgrim_ is now known as Crendgrim
20130219 09:51:49-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 10:01:02-!- skyfaller_ [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 10:03:34-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:17:04-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 10:17:27-!- knotwork [~markm@unaffiliated/knotwork] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:18:32-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:26:54-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:29:31-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:34:20-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
20130219 10:40:58-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: bumbadadabum]
20130219 10:43:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 10:48:15-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 10:58:13-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@82.26.252.13] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 11:39:14-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@82.26.252.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 11:45:02-!- LordNasty [~NaSTy@93-43-163-150.ip92.fastwebnet.it] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 11:59:48-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo320074.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:12:14-!- enchilado is now known as ChekhovsGun
20130219 12:16:46-!- ChekhovsGun is now known as Ruth
20130219 12:20:59-!- Ruth is now known as enchilado
20130219 12:23:47-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 12:27:02-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 12:28:12-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:28:12-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 12:28:12-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:35:40-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:40:52-!- loonybot [~loonybot@158.255.133.34] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:40:52-!- loonybot [~loonybot@158.255.133.34] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 12:40:52-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:43:38-!- molgrum_ [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:43:38-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 12:49:57-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 12:50:37-!- molgrum_ [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20130219 12:58:50-!- Elvish_Pillager [~eli@dhip-029.rrw.residences.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:02:58-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:10:16< AI0867> skyfaller: the fast-import-stream was 49 GiB, the imported git repo was 9 GiB, git gc --aggressive failed due to memory shortage, git repack -A increased the size to 18 GiB, then a new gc run brought it down to 1.4 GiB
20130219 13:10:26< AI0867> that's without expunging anything
20130219 13:17:33-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: bumbadadabum]
20130219 13:17:52-!- shadowm_laptop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
20130219 13:26:20-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 13:28:27-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:28:27-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@ool-43551edd.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 13:28:27-!- skyfaller [~skyfaller@wikipedia/Skyfaller] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:28:38-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:31:23< AI0867> esr: are you aware of http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=38317 ?
20130219 13:38:24< esr> AI0867: Cool.  Sounds ke he's the new wmllint maintainer.
20130219 13:39:11< shadowm> esr: Did you read anything I said yesterday?
20130219 13:40:07< esr> shadowm: I think I read eveything you said yesterday.  To what part are you referring?
20130219 13:40:25< shadowm> The thing about eleazar's commit, and a question I asked later about wmllint.
20130219 13:42:42< esr> Saw the question.  Don't know about eleazar's commit.
20130219 13:43:14< shadowm> You can read the logs for that.
20130219 13:43:19 * shadowm needs to go.
20130219 13:47:35< AI0867> esr: except he hasn't bothered to even attempt to merge anything back into SVN
20130219 13:48:25< esr> AI0867: I asked if he has commit access.
20130219 13:58:55-!- molgrum_ [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 13:58:55-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 14:00:51-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@173.33.158.188] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:04:56-!- molgrum [~molgrum@81.170.234.238] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:05:14-!- molgrum_ [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 14:08:46-!- stikonas [~gentoo@as932.girton.cam.ac.uk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:08:46-!- stikonas [~gentoo@as932.girton.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 14:08:46-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:23:16-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@g224183103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:26:59-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@g224183103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 14:27:21-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@g224183103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:28:53-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 14:29:10-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:30:19-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo320074.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20130219 14:32:35-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@173.33.158.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20130219 14:37:33-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@191.sub-70-192-220.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:43:45-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@191.sub-70-192-220.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20130219 14:44:02-!- molgrum [~molgrum@81.170.234.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 14:44:12-!- molgrum [~molgrum@h-234-238.a189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:50:03< zookeeper> esr, i asked this earlier, but i presume you missed it: if you want bigmaps for NR and/or THoT, i need to know the bounds of the area you want depicted, as well as the locations of all places which don't appear on any map so far.
20130219 14:50:09-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@202.sub-70-192-207.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 14:51:31-!- irker305 [~irker@ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout]
20130219 14:52:45< esr> zookeeper: Thanks.  I haven't thought about bigmaps for those campaigns.  I believe all locations in both campaigns are pinned to the main map by journey-track dots, so you could just deduce a reasonable bounding box from that.
20130219 14:59:31< zookeeper> right
20130219 15:00:33-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@202.sub-70-192-207.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20130219 15:01:31< zookeeper> it's just that at least NR might want to use some of the space north of the current main map, since its locations have surely been pinned to the main map simply out of necessity
20130219 15:01:48< zookeeper> THoT maybe less so
20130219 15:01:56< esr> Hmmm.
20130219 15:03:32< esr> Not sure.  I'd need to stare at the main map and think hard about NR continuity - which I'm not going to have time to do until the repo conversion and site move is finished. 
20130219 15:03:44< zookeeper> sure, there's no hurry.
20130219 15:03:52< esr> I don't think either case is urgent, anyway.
20130219 15:04:24< zookeeper> btw, do you think we should now rename dorset? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25996
20130219 15:04:48< esr> Do you have any wishlist items for the repo conversion and site move. 
20130219 15:05:01< esr> Yes, we should rename Dorset.
20130219 15:06:20-!- jamit [~jamit@wesnoth/developer/jamit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 15:06:25< esr> I see I endorsed those name changes in 2009 :-)
20130219 15:06:46-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@160.sub-70-192-198.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 15:06:57< zookeeper> my only wish is that i can continue working as before and that nothing silly like moving music into a different repo doesn't happen
20130219 15:07:08< boucman_work> esr: i'm still not convinced by any of the proposals for (not)spliting the repo...
20130219 15:07:12< boucman_work> see my last mail
20130219 15:07:14< esr> zookeeper: :-)
20130219 15:07:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 15:07:27< boucman_work> zookeeper: so we disagree :P
20130219 15:07:30-!- ancestral [~ancestral@75-168-48-246.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 15:09:38< zookeeper> yeah, music is the only thing that could realistically be separated, and the music dir is only 150mb or so, and its history can't be all that much bigger either since practically nothing ever gets changed, only added.
20130219 15:09:55< zookeeper> (although there was some tagging changes which probably altered every file)
20130219 15:09:58< boucman_work> zookeeper: you do remember the big metadata changes :P
20130219 15:10:05< zookeeper> yep :p
20130219 15:10:12< boucman_work> zookeeper: you don't think art/translations should be separated ?
20130219 15:10:47< zookeeper> they definitely shouldn't
20130219 15:11:06< esr> Separating art would be a nightmarew.  There's a good case for separating translations, though - that's he best part of your argument IMO.
20130219 15:11:22< esr> zookeeper: Explain?
20130219 15:11:32< zookeeper> err, yeah, i don't feel strongly about translations
20130219 15:11:43< zookeeper> but art is an absolute no-go IMO
20130219 15:12:51< zookeeper> would separating translations mean any more hassle for language maintainers?
20130219 15:13:46< esr> I think it might mean less.  boucman makes some good points in his email.
20130219 15:14:39< zookeeper> also, is it trivial to locally "merge" the main repo and the translation repo into one, if i want to play latest svn with translations? currently i just need an executable in my checkout dir, but if translations are in a different repo, what steps would i need to take?
20130219 15:15:00 * zookeeper reads
20130219 15:15:18< esr> zookeeper: One extra step, a git update on the submodule.
20130219 15:16:21< zookeeper> okay
20130219 15:18:08< esr> My current plan is:
20130219 15:18:19< esr> 1) Convert the entire repo
20130219 15:18:23< zookeeper> personally i think that everything you need to have a fully functional wesnoth should be in a single repo. translations and music are kind of borderline cases, since the game still works and is playable without them, but...
20130219 15:18:36< boucman_work> esr: my git fu is not that high, but could most of the submodules "tricks" be put in config files that would then be kept (and propagate) by git
20130219 15:18:44< boucman_work> in the way .gitignore is propagated
20130219 15:19:01< esr> 2) split out website and resources (that's not controversial)
20130219 15:19:54< esr> 3) *look* at how much space would be saved by splittin off translations and music, but not do it.
20130219 15:20:16< zookeeper> split off the past history for music and translations? :p
20130219 15:20:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 15:20:27< esr> 4) Present those figures to the dev list and request policy guidance.
20130219 15:21:11< esr> zookeeper:  Myu inclination is the same as yours, not to split.  But the alternatives should be discussed.
20130219 15:21:30< boucman_work> esr: did you ever do any serious work with git submodules or experiment with them ?
20130219 15:22:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@128.232.240.234] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 15:22:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@128.232.240.234] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 15:22:26-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 15:22:38< esr> boucman_work: I use them in GPSD but would not yet describe myself as an expert on the feature.
20130219 15:22:52< boucman_work> ok, so you know as much as I do :)
20130219 15:23:07< boucman_work> basically I was disapointed by git submodules but
20130219 15:23:15< boucman_work> 1) I never found any better way of doing it
20130219 15:23:21< esr> boucman_work: In particular, I don't yet know if it is possible to set up auto-update on every pull of the master.
20130219 15:23:25< boucman_work> 2) I wasn't disapointed in the way I expected to be :)
20130219 15:23:40< boucman_work> esr: i'll have a look
20130219 15:25:46< zookeeper> what if you had all past history as a submodule (or several)? is that a silly idea?
20130219 15:26:33< esr> I don't think it can be partitioned that way.
20130219 15:26:45< zookeeper> okay then
20130219 15:27:57< boucman_work> esr: there is fetch.recurseSubmodule config option for the fetch part but apparently you can't store it in the repo (values are in .git/config which isn't checked in IIUC)
20130219 15:28:22< boucman_work> or ~/.gitconfig and /etc/gitconfig which don't help either
20130219 15:28:27< boucman_work> no .gitconfig
20130219 15:28:46< esr> Ah, that's interesting.  If that's true it sets up auto-update of submodules on pull?
20130219 15:29:38< boucman_work> oh wait... there is :P
20130219 15:29:59< boucman_work> $GIT_DIR/config is a repo wide config file
20130219 15:30:18< boucman_work> it only recurses the fetch part, I need to look into the complete pull
20130219 15:32:24 * esr notes that, overall, Wesnoth change comments have a German accent :-)
20130219 15:34:01< boucman_work> esr: ok, "man gitmodules" has all the info
20130219 15:34:12< boucman_work> and basically you can configure it whatever way you want
20130219 15:34:20 * esr looks
20130219 15:34:56< boucman_work> as far at fetch/pull is concerned, I need to look into push/commit (I don't think there is any way to make it recursive and I am not sure it's a good idea)
20130219 16:20:51< esr> shadowm: Still there?
20130219 16:26:41-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@160.sub-70-192-198.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20130219 16:33:23-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@195.sub-70-192-216.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 16:33:47-!- prkc [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CC9A5.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 16:42:17-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 17:09:44-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: bumbadadabum]
20130219 17:13:45-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-32-241.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 18:14:52-!- EdB [~edb@89-93-184-215.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 18:24:35-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 18:24:54-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 18:36:39-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: DCW]
20130219 18:43:49-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: bumbadadabum]
20130219 18:44:34-!- zookeeper2 [~lmsnie@87-100-211-108.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 18:45:47-!- _8680_ [~quassel@S010620aa4b739215.vw.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20130219 18:45:59-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20130219 18:51:56-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 18:59:53-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:04:17-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20130219 19:04:54-!- AI0867 [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20130219 19:05:00-!- shikadibot [~shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20130219 19:05:21-!- shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 19:06:22-!- _8680_ [~quassel@S0106002564d593e5.vw.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:10:06-!- shadowm [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:10:54-!- Espreon [~espreon@ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:10:55-!- AI0867 [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:11:18-!- Espreon is now known as Guest8531
20130219 19:11:21-!- shikadibot [~shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:13:32-!- hopman- [~chris@50-193-32-122-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 19:13:49-!- hopman- [~chris@50-193-32-122-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:27:51-!- artisticdude [~artisticd@195.sub-70-192-216.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20130219 19:43:41-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:45:33-!- zookeeper2 is now known as zookeeper
20130219 19:45:50-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@87-100-211-108.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 19:45:51-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:50:02-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20130219 19:51:26-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 19:55:22-!- csarmi [~csarmi@94-21-124-24.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:55:42-!- csarmi [~csarmi@94-21-124-24.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 19:58:10-!- Artemius [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 19:59:47-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 20:02:51-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 20:16:24-!- anonymissimus [~chatzilla@HSI-KBW-078-042-163-136.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 20:16:55< anonymissimus> shadowm: re check_passability etc:
20130219 20:17:33< anonymissimus> I imagine how you felt about that then okay :)
20130219 20:18:00< anonymissimus> however, without looking at the code, this sounds like some bug in the code calculating a suizable location
20130219 20:18:14< anonymissimus> *suitable*
20130219 20:20:04< anonymissimus> perhaps you have a pretty extreme situation, such as most movable locations already filled with units, since we are on a cave map with small tunnels and many units ?
20130219 20:24:43-!- EdB [~edb@89-93-184-215.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 20:48:04< Ivanovic> esr: what is required to have pofix.py work with python 3.2?
20130219 20:48:06< Ivanovic>   File "/src/wesnoth-1.10/utils/pofix.py", line 3981
20130219 20:48:07< Ivanovic>     print "Failed to import 'multiprocessing' module. Multiple cpu cores won't be utilized"
20130219 20:48:17< Ivanovic> i get this error when using python 3.2 but not when using python 2.7
20130219 20:48:27< Ivanovic> do i just need some extra python package installed?
20130219 20:49:33< esr> Wow.  I have no idea.  I'll have to look at the code.
20130219 20:50:04< Ivanovic> this is on a rather fresh gentoo box (just about 3 weeks old) btw
20130219 20:50:59< Ivanovic> timotei: and i am sure you will love your new cpu
20130219 20:51:19< Ivanovic> i am currently running wesnoth-optipng on several thousand images and damn, it is fast...
20130219 20:53:42-!- ArtemiusH [~androirc@176.55.181.39] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 20:54:45 * Ivanovic really loves his new box...
20130219 20:54:48< Ivanovic> Sysinfo for 'rechner2': Linux 3.7.6 running KDE Development Platform 4.10.00, CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1230 V2 @ 3.30GHz at 3301 MHz (6600 bogomips), HD: 411/1839GB, RAM: 15839/16014MB, 180 proc's, 2.43h up
20130219 20:54:50-!- Artemius [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20130219 20:54:52-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20130219 20:57:33-!- ArtemiusH [~androirc@176.55.181.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 20:57:49-!- ArtemiusH [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 20:58:12-!- ArtemiusH is now known as Artemius
20130219 21:20:42< zookeeper> Ivanovic, sounds nice
20130219 21:21:21< Ivanovic> and dead silent
20130219 21:21:31< zookeeper> now... is there anything special involved in image localization that i should be aware of? or can i just commit the new maps sometime very soon and not have to worry about anything?
20130219 21:21:37< Ivanovic> okay, not 100% passive (many really slow rotating fans)
20130219 21:21:54< Ivanovic> zookeeper: it would be nice if you could also commit the sources to resources branch
20130219 21:21:58< zookeeper> sure, i will
20130219 21:22:14< zookeeper> i'll commit everything needed for the localization, of course
20130219 21:23:04< zookeeper> ...which ought to be a lot simpler for translators than the localization for the old map(s)
20130219 21:23:11< Ivanovic> then i don't see much of a problem, though chusslove has to run some scripts to update the checksums to mark the images as untranslated or something like that
20130219 21:23:31< zookeeper> yeah, that's the kind of thing i thought might be involved
20130219 21:26:14< Ivanovic> no idea what exactly needs to be done there, espreon might know though...
20130219 21:28:11< anonymissimus> if I had such new box with some Linux there'd certainly be one or two hardware components not functioning correctly...
20130219 21:29:19< anonymissimus> are you sure everything works ? :P
20130219 21:31:21< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: jepp
20130219 21:31:31< Ivanovic> tv card works, audio works, graphics works, ...
20130219 21:32:43 * zookeeper wonders if he's going to have to update all journey markers too
20130219 21:33:42-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 21:33:52< Artemius> İ
20130219 21:34:46< Artemius> Will contributing wesnoth on android be an option for GSoC?  
20130219 21:35:20< Ivanovic> zookeeper: you do!
20130219 21:35:33< Ivanovic> that is: was this not supposed to be done using a script from esr?
20130219 21:36:14< zookeeper> well it can't be scripted, but yes, there's trackplacer. i've just never managed to run it :p
20130219 21:36:18< esr> foo?  What script?
20130219 21:36:29< esr> Ahhh.
20130219 21:37:00< zookeeper> maybe i could write a gimp script for that, too...
20130219 21:37:01< esr> zookeeper: What happens when you try to run it?
20130219 21:37:55< zookeeper> i don't recall, probably something to do with graphics/windowing/etc. it was years ago, and atm i don't even have python so can't test.
20130219 21:38:56< shadowm> zookeeper, esr: I do not approve of this "let's rename every rare real-world name 'thing'" thing and you know it, but whatever. It's too bad I don't have a choice.
20130219 21:39:32< shadowm> esr: Next time you ask whether I am around, maybe you could also tell what you need me for? That way we don't need to do this silly "are you around" dance again later. :)
20130219 21:39:45< zookeeper> shadowm, what do i have to do with it? :x
20130219 21:40:14< zookeeper> oh, dorset.
20130219 21:40:25< esr> shadowm: I didn't know that.  What is yiur issue with eliminating such names?
20130219 21:40:35< shadowm> anonymissimus: The units in question (the Leech unit type) literally cannot move on any terrain, on purpose, having a "large enough" ({UNREACHABLE}) movement cost on all of them and only 1 total MP.
20130219 21:40:50< shadowm> anonymissimus: Does that sound like a border case?
20130219 21:41:06< shadowm> And no, the cave map in question doesn't have too many units. It's pretty sparse overall.
20130219 21:41:11< zookeeper> from 2009: * zookeeper has never ran trackplacer because it complains about some missing pygtk or something
20130219 21:41:22< zookeeper> and i didn't want to start installing more crap so i gave up
20130219 21:41:26< shadowm> esr: That it's silly and breaks UMC. That's all.
20130219 21:41:30< anonymissimus> shadowm: border case: yes
20130219 21:42:00< shadowm> Those names could just be entirely coincidental and nobody would care.
20130219 21:42:05< esr> shadowm: Noted. Do you understand my reasons for changing such names?
20130219 21:42:16< anonymissimus> and I guess that algortihm then returns map_location() IIRC
20130219 21:42:39< zookeeper> i don't mind renaming as long as the new name isn't massively inferior, but changing a perfectly good real-world name solely because it's a real-world name is silly.
20130219 21:42:42< shadowm> esr: I don't recall you stating any reasons.
20130219 21:43:15< anonymissimus> shadowm: making units unable to move usually done by setting max_moves=0, then it should be irrelevant what movement costs they have (this could be another solution)
20130219 21:44:46< esr> shadowm: OK, perhaps I shouldn't have thought it was obvious.  I think every recognizable "Earth" name is jarring because it imm4ediately raises the question "how did *that* get to Wesnoth?"  It reminds a reader/player toonforcefully that he's looking at an artifact.
20130219 21:45:12< shadowm> esr: Does the word "coincidence" ring any bells?
20130219 21:46:42< shadowm> anonymissimus: Yeah, maybe. ISTR some weird issue with the Next Unit command with units with max MP 0, but I guess that's irrelevant for non-human-player controlled units.
20130219 21:46:49< esr> shadowm: Yes.  But I prefer not to lean on it, because if we think that way we stop policing such names at all and the cognitive disruption becomes too frequent.  Better yo err on the side of removing all such "coincidences" than risk that.
20130219 21:47:30< shadowm> esr: Your cognitive disruption argument is a little weak considering that we all see a huge reminder that this is a fantasy world in the form of a game user interface.
20130219 21:47:58< shadowm> If you are trying to suggest your goal is to make the story as immersive as possible, well, there's pretty much no way to do that if you are playing a computer game.
20130219 21:48:15< esr> shadowm: Yes, but that is a frame we have agreed to ignore.  It's rude to pile "coincidence" on topp of that.
20130219 21:48:20< shadowm> You might as well try writing a novel instead.
20130219 21:49:07< esr> shadowm: So, you haven't noticed that I' have beenm trying to raise the prose to the level of a decent fantasy novel?
20130219 21:49:29< shadowm> esr: Let me refresh your memory a bit.
20130219 21:49:48< shadowm> I noticed that, I liked the idea, I got you to start doing that for IftU, and then you quit before you even got to finish the first half.
20130219 21:49:53< shadowm> :)
20130219 21:49:59< shadowm> So yes, I have noticed, of course.
20130219 21:50:01< esr> Decent fantasy novels don't have charactwes named "Charlie". That's why we shouldn't either.
20130219 21:50:25< shadowm> We don't have anyone named Charlie either.
20130219 21:50:35< shadowm> How many people know Dorset is even a real name?
20130219 21:50:40< shadowm> Compared to, say, Konrad.
20130219 21:51:19< esr> "Konrad" is a flaw I've concluded we have to live with for hyterical raisins.
20130219 21:51:49< zookeeper> sure, we shouldn't have anyone named charlie or mike. but we haven't had any such glaring examples anyway.
20130219 21:51:50< esr> But every native English speaker will recognize "Dorset" as a real place name.
20130219 21:52:43< esr> Which segues neatly to the reason I pinged you.  In 2010 you made an ESL error which I want to explain.
20130219 21:52:57< shadowm> Isn't Dorset in the UK?
20130219 21:53:22< shadowm> There are plenty of native English speakers who have never lived in the UK and do not know its entire geography.
20130219 21:53:23< esr> shadowmYes. Sourgern England.
20130219 21:54:56< shadowm> Okay, if you are going to complain about a commit message I wrote in 2010 I'm out of here.
20130219 21:55:00< esr> The reason I pinged you is that in DW you changed "words of a man" into "words of a merman". This was not right; you tripped over a subtlety in English that as an ESL speaker you may not quite get. 
20130219 21:56:08< shadowm> The commit message says I did it in response to http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=453526#p453526.
20130219 21:56:31< shadowm> The campaign was undermaintained at the time, so I went ahead with those suggestions.
20130219 21:57:09< shadowm> Now explain the subtlety.
20130219 21:58:10< zookeeper> i see how that change would in any way be a change for the worse even considering the subtlety
20130219 21:59:10< shadowm> Yeah, TBH the replacement sounds silly, but I didn't know much about writing in general back then.
20130219 21:59:32< esr> Jozrael was wrong.  In this context in English, "words of a man" does not unpack as "words of a human" but as "words uttered from an adult moral sense, not that of a child".  By changing it to "merman" the emphasis went to a mereman's perspective *as distinct from a human's* and away from moral maturity - which is exactly wrong and robs the line of its intended meaning and emotional force.
20130219 21:59:50< shadowm> I mean, hell, lately I've been stumbling upon crap I wrote back then in my own campaign that I've had to rewrite.
20130219 22:00:18< shadowm> esr: tl;dr Feel free to revert the commit since you are the prose man anyway.
20130219 22:00:33< shadowm> It's just that you weren't even available at the time because you were busy with gpsd I think.
20130219 22:00:47< esr> I will, but I wanted you to know why.
20130219 22:01:56< esr> Because I think you jandle English very well, considering, and I respect your intelligence.
20130219 22:02:10< esr> I'll add a note to translators.
20130219 22:02:30-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130219 22:03:36-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 22:03:54-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 22:04:10-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 22:05:33-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 22:05:54-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 22:06:21< shadowm> All right.
20130219 22:06:59-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 22:07:13-!- Artemius [~androirc@139.179.175.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 22:09:34< esr> shadowm:  Is there any parallel use in Spanish?  How would you translate that line for the connotations I described?
20130219 22:12:03-!- Artemius23 [~androirc@5.229.148.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 22:12:54< shadowm> I'm not sure there's any 1:1 equivalent, but then again, I have never given much thought to adult->child/mentor->apprentice subtext cues in writing using a single sentence as [Ca basis.
20130219 22:13:42< shadowm> Also, my Spanish has become pretty sloppy over time.
20130219 22:14:15< esr> Yes, this is the child-hero's surrogate father tweklling him he has exgibited moral adulthood.
20130219 22:14:31< esr> s/tweklling/telling/
20130219 22:15:39< shadowm> I don't like stories with child heroes in general. Especially not in Wesnoth where units can level up mid-game and suddenly seem more mature in gameplay terms.
20130219 22:16:07< esr> Fair point.  But that's what I had to work with in this case.
20130219 22:24:33-!- prkc [~negusnyul@dsl4E5CC9A5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 22:41:36-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 22:44:56-!- anonymissimus [~chatzilla@HSI-KBW-078-042-163-136.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]]
20130219 22:49:54-!- DCW [~Thunderbi@cpc1-finc14-2-0-cust12.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130219 22:56:04< zookeeper> eh, shouldn't the random seed be regenerated every time you complete a scenario? IIRC the (somewhat controversial) change was only to have the seed in the beginning-of-scenario saves.
20130219 22:56:07< zookeeper> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=548157#p548157
20130219 22:56:49-!- _8680_ [~quassel@S0106002564d593e5.vw.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130219 23:01:12< shadowm> Rhonda: Hm, Wesnoth 1.10.5 isn't in the Ubuntu precise and quantal backport repos?
20130219 23:17:10< shadowm> wmlindent: "./episode3/scenarios/10_Blood.cfg". line 2582: end of file with indent nonzero.
20130219 23:17:25< shadowm> esr: I'm supposed to interpret this as wmlindent detecting unbalanced WML opening/closing tags?
20130219 23:17:55< esr> shadowm: Yes.
20130219 23:18:21-!- Crendgrim [~crend@port-92-204-89-40.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130219 23:18:29< esr> shadowmL Too many opening tags or too few closers.
20130219 23:18:30< shadowm> Okay, wmlindent is plain wrong and I .
20130219 23:18:31< shadowm> Not sure how to diagnose the issue further.
20130219 23:19:14< esr> Does trhe file have lua markup in it?  Someone muttered that this confuses wmlindent.
20130219 23:19:38< shadowm> No, that happens to be the one file that does not have any Lua... scripts in it.
20130219 23:21:10-!- _8680_ [~quassel@S010620aa4b739215.vw.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:33:48< shadowm> wesbot: bug 20485
20130219 23:33:49< wesbot> Bug #20485  Assigned to: J Tyne <jamit>  Status: Fixed  Priority: 5 - Normal
20130219 23:33:52< wesbot> Summary: Drake animation glitch: not using it's flying animation on volcano tile
20130219 23:33:55< wesbot> Original submission: When standing on volcano tile drake will land like it was
20130219 23:33:58< wesbot>  stand on non-unwalkable tiles. Shouldn't it fly? because everytime drake stand 
20130219 23:34:01< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?20485
20130219 23:35:23-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20130219 23:36:30-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-46-174-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:36:30-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-46-174-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Changing host]
20130219 23:36:30-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:42:59< esr> shadowm: Sigh.  File a bug against wmlindent and assign it to me.
20130219 23:44:01-!- Artemius [~yigit@139.179.206.41] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:48:55-!- Artemius [~yigit@139.179.206.41] has quit [Client Quit]
20130219 23:49:22-!- Artemius [~yigit@139.179.206.41] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:58:58-!- vultraz_ [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130219 23:59:03-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
--- Log closed Wed Feb 20 00:00:09 2013