--- Log opened Fri Feb 01 00:00:54 2013
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20130201 00:12:42< pydsigner> So was IftU intended to become mainline? I noticed that ESR worked on the dialog
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20130201 00:28:05< shadowm> It was, but that was a bad idea, and having him handle that task was an even worse idea.
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20130201 01:28:40< pydsigner> So what new features does 1.11/1.12 open up?
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20130201 01:48:14< AI0867> it wasn't a terrible idea, but it certainly wasn't ready
20130201 01:48:22< AI0867> not that LoW and DM were
20130201 01:53:55< pydsigner> Heeh
20130201 01:54:13< pydsigner> What is the next campaign to be added?
20130201 01:54:31< pydsigner> DW seemed pretty code-sophisticated
20130201 01:54:47< pydsigner> DM is also, at least now
20130201 01:56:27< vultraz> I keep hearing rumors of a drake campaign
20130201 01:56:50< pydsigner> Interesting, it's about time!
20130201 01:59:54< AI0867> WoV
20130201 02:00:07< AI0867> the first bits are more than a year old
20130201 02:00:13< AI0867> no work has been done on it since
20130201 02:00:30< AI0867> AFAIK, no campaigns are currently on the shortlist
20130201 02:00:53< vultraz> AI0867: did the author leave?
20130201 02:05:55< pydsigner> WoV = ?
20130201 02:06:39< Alarantalara> Wings of Victory
20130201 02:07:47< pydsigner> Downloading :P
20130201 02:16:52< shadowm> AI0867: It was a terrible idea. Period.
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20130201 02:18:08< pydsigner> So how do I upload my campaign?
20130201 02:19:20< shadowm> You need to create a .pbl file for it as per http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PblWML and then you will see an option to publish it at the end of the add-ons list in the Add-ons manager dialog.
20130201 02:19:25< shadowm> a.k.a. "Get add-ons" dialog.
20130201 02:20:16< pydsigner> OK
20130201 02:20:44< pydsigner> Thanks
20130201 02:24:12< AI0867> shadowm: there's this whole range of things between 'good' and 'terrible'
20130201 02:24:15< pydsigner> BTW, the High Kings March song you included in AtS is pretty awesome
20130201 02:24:37< Espreon> 'Tis indeed an awesome song.
20130201 02:25:03< pydsigner> I'm waiting to find some using The Rule
20130201 02:25:04< vultraz> Land of Adventure in NX is better
20130201 02:25:19< pydsigner> Hehe, what did I just start
20130201 02:25:20< AI0867> 01:28 < pydsigner> So what new features does 1.11/1.12 open up? <-- that's what the changelog is for
20130201 02:25:25< vultraz> (than The High King's March)
20130201 02:25:36< pydsigner> AI0867: I don't have 1.11
20130201 02:25:46< pydsigner> I'm on linux
20130201 02:26:02< Espreon> vultraz: Lies.
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20130201 02:26:25< vultraz> Espreon: truth
20130201 02:26:51< pydsigner> Wow, gamesong Holy Wars
20130201 02:26:58 * pydsigner grabs some popcorn
20130201 02:27:18< shadowm> I don't really care much for in-game music anymore.
20130201 02:27:34< pydsigner> I don't either, I turn it off and use my own
20130201 02:27:36< AI0867> pydsigner: svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/changelog
20130201 02:27:47< shadowm> I even wrote a 50-page essay on the matter.
20130201 02:28:59< vultraz> pydsigner: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/changelog
20130201 02:29:13< vultraz> shadowm: lies
20130201 02:29:17< shadowm> http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/archives/54-Original-music-in-Wesnoth-content.html   
20130201 02:29:24< shadowm> vultraz: Hyperbole.
20130201 02:29:28< Espreon> pydsigner: Eh, not really much of a holy war.
20130201 02:30:53< pydsigner>  Removed two Khalifate leftovers (Hakim portrait and KHALIFATE_NAMES macro)
20130201 02:30:57< shadowm> vultraz: If you mean AtSM, I do it mostly for the few players who actually care. Most of the time during playtesting I play with music disabled unless I'm actually testing the music code paths themselves.
20130201 02:31:06< pydsigner> ^ Had been wondering about that portrait
20130201 02:31:38< vultraz> shadowm: I usually play with music off so I can listen to the radio or youtube or something
20130201 02:31:47< vultraz> s/radio/BBC Radio1
20130201 02:31:56< shadowm> I didn't ask you though.
20130201 02:32:17< shadowm> So yeah, that's my opinion on in-game music and it's not a lie.
20130201 02:32:17< vultraz> IDC
20130201 02:32:34< shadowm> Permissive content licenses ruin the experience.
20130201 02:33:00< vultraz> I still think Wesnoth would sound better if they negotiated a contract with TSfH to use their tracks
20130201 02:33:13< shadowm> Permissive content licenses would continue to ruin the experience.
20130201 02:33:24< pydsigner> CC?
20130201 02:33:41< shadowm> No, all of Wesnoth is GNU GPL.
20130201 02:33:56< pydsigner> So CC could not be used?
20130201 02:34:11< shadowm> Unless it's CC-0, no.
20130201 02:34:26< vultraz> shadowm: is that even possible?
20130201 02:34:36< vultraz> Negotiating a contract, that is
20130201 02:34:58< shadowm> vultraz: I don't know what TSfH is, but I assume it involves a large amount of money.
20130201 02:35:19< vultraz> Two Steps From Hell. Music production company
20130201 02:35:24< shadowm> Licensing non-free music for usage in a single instance would be expensive.
20130201 02:35:41< vultraz> Makes trailer music and stuff
20130201 02:35:44< shadowm> RELICENSING non-free music under a super-permissive license would be ridiculously expensive.
20130201 02:36:06< vultraz> How much?
20130201 02:36:09< shadowm> Because it means the people who made/licensed it can no longer profit from it.
20130201 02:36:56< shadowm> vultraz: Do I look like a publishing company suit to you? Gods.
20130201 02:37:01< shadowm> Expensive.
20130201 02:37:10< shadowm> Think about it like selling your own house.
20130201 02:37:26< shadowm> Once it's done, you can no longer exert any control over what the new proprietor can do with it.
20130201 02:37:36< pydsigner> I actually didn't think so much of Weight of Revenge
20130201 02:37:46< vultraz> I don't see how a few tracks would be that expensive
20130201 02:37:53< shadowm> The same applies with the GNU GPL, except for the compatible license clause.
20130201 02:38:05< shadowm> vultraz: Please, those people sell that stuff for profit.
20130201 02:38:40< shadowm> Understand that licensing under the GPL means risking their right to profit from it.
20130201 02:39:33< vultraz> Therefor they would want to make a lot of $ from the relicensing agreement?
20130201 02:39:37< shadowm> A more practical use case: since the Android port is GPL, anyone can publish a full free version and deny cjhopman's his right to profit.
20130201 02:40:08< shadowm> vultraz: Exactly, because once something is published under the GPL, there is no going back.
20130201 02:40:43< shadowm> The most you can do if you are the copyright holder is to publish a better version under a different license and cause a shitstorm from license trolls.
20130201 02:40:50< vultraz> And Wesnoth.inc does not have that much $?
20130201 02:40:53< shadowm> If you are not the copyright holder, you are doomed. It's GPL forever.
20130201 02:42:40< shadowm> I have no idea what you are talking about now.
20130201 02:43:26< vultraz> ...
20130201 02:43:34< shadowm> To recap:
20130201 02:44:08< shadowm> 1) For publishing companies, profit is a big deal. You won't be able to convince them to  basically forfeit their right to profits without paying them a ridiculous sum of money.
20130201 02:44:19< shadowm> 2) For musicians, profit is a big deal, see above.
20130201 02:44:57< shadowm> 3) For musicians, their right to have absolute control over how their output is used is a big deal and that is why they almost never use the GNU GPL.
20130201 02:45:20< shadowm> The Wesnoth case of GPL in music has been a source of endless drama both inside and outside the community and I'd rather not discuss that particular point.
20130201 02:47:37< pydsigner> Honestly, there is so much music available, that we should just all go find our own.
20130201 02:48:01< pydsigner> Kevin MacLeod's website is a good source
20130201 02:48:47< pydsigner> Something else: Just started with uploading a small addon, Dragonworld
20130201 02:51:31< pydsigner> (Is 2kb small enough to meet the requirements, shadowm?)
20130201 02:51:40< vultraz> I suppose, just have your own music playing in your backgrounf
20130201 02:51:53< vultraz> pydsigner: um, we have addons up to like, 90mb :P
20130201 02:51:55< shadowm> By small I meant no more than 10 scenarios.
20130201 02:52:00< pydsigner> Ah
20130201 02:52:09< pydsigner> vultraz: I know that
20130201 02:52:22< shadowm> There are many beginners who attempt to make really long campaigns and fail.
20130201 02:52:23< pydsigner> 89.2 MB
20130201 02:53:02< pydsigner> shadowm: I'm a fairly experienced writer and coder, so I have an edge
20130201 02:53:31< pydsigner> Besides the fact that I'm doling out the macros to save my fingers >:)
20130201 02:53:40< shadowm> Wesnoth being a strategy game, writing and coding skills aren't everything a campaign author needs.
20130201 02:54:09< pydsigner> As in mapping skills?
20130201 02:54:30< shadowm> And playing skills.
20130201 02:54:43< shadowm> Also game design skills.
20130201 02:55:50< shadowm> e.g. Keeping your players engaged, ensuring gameplay is neither frustrating nor a cakewalk, presenting them with entertaining and varied challenges, blah blah blah.
20130201 02:56:33< vultraz> pydsigner: shadowm knows how to do all that extremely well
20130201 02:56:45< shadowm> No.
20130201 02:57:00< pydsigner> I've read almost the entire source for IftU ^^
20130201 02:57:24< shadowm> Ugh.
20130201 02:57:30< pydsigner> Lol
20130201 02:57:30< shadowm> Biggest piece of crap I ever made.
20130201 02:57:51< pydsigner> Lol
20130201 02:57:55< vultraz> shadowm: I'm referring to AtS
20130201 02:58:10< shadowm> vultraz: Debatable.
20130201 02:58:15< vultraz> No
20130201 02:58:20< shadowm> Yes.
20130201 02:58:27< vultraz> It's one of the best UMC campaigns
20130201 02:58:41< shadowm> It's not even complete.
20130201 02:58:54< shadowm> The last few scenarios of AtS E3 may well change your perception of the campaign entirely.
20130201 02:58:54< pydsigner> In downloads, anyways :P TBH, I'm not sure I'm too into the style of your campaigns, though
20130201 02:59:00< shadowm> "few".
20130201 02:59:11< pydsigner> As in, unwritten?
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20130201 02:59:29< shadowm> No, most of AtS E3 is written.
20130201 02:59:44< vultraz> pydsigner: He's working on finishing AtS E3 by march
20130201 02:59:50< shadowm> I am not.
20130201 02:59:58< vultraz> You were
20130201 03:00:08< shadowm> Not true.
20130201 03:00:21< shadowm> That was a rough estimate based on statistical information.
20130201 03:00:21< vultraz> You said so
20130201 03:00:30< shadowm> And as we all know, there are lies, blatant lies, and statistics.
20130201 03:00:38< vultraz> And how has the statistical info changed
20130201 03:00:44< shadowm> It has not.
20130201 03:00:45< pydsigner> # Mandatory generic sea creatures' appearance.
20130201 03:00:45< pydsigner> # No campaign is ever complete without this.
20130201 03:00:45< pydsigner> ^ So unfortunately true
20130201 03:01:31< vultraz> Yup :P
20130201 03:02:04< shadowm> Anyway, using IftU or AtS' source code as a model for anything is lounacy.
20130201 03:02:08< pydsigner> I like what Dwarven Kingdom says
20130201 03:02:16< pydsigner> I'm not, don't worry
20130201 03:02:24< shadowm> Although the latter aims to be fit for a preprocessor benchmark suite.
20130201 03:02:35< vultraz> shadowm: but I use AtS as a code model :(
20130201 03:02:37< pydsigner> ...and... I'm leaving now, bye all
20130201 03:02:44< pydsigner> Lol vultraz
20130201 03:02:52< shadowm> *lunacy
20130201 03:03:01< shadowm> vultraz: Because you are vultraz.
20130201 03:03:08< shadowm> You do even sillier stuff than that.
20130201 03:03:14< vultraz> Such as?
20130201 03:03:19< vultraz> Nothing I do is silly
20130201 03:03:35< shadowm> Such as wasting your time with that stuff you did earlier.
20130201 03:03:51< shadowm> Asking me stupid questions 90% of the time.
20130201 03:03:58< vultraz> Wasn't a waste of time
20130201 03:04:01< vultraz> I thought you would like it
20130201 03:04:04< shadowm> And other stuff I won't discuss in this channel.
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20130201 03:59:58< mattsc> BTreeGA: just saw your post.  I recently changed how MP games are set up when started from the CL and how parameters are passed to it (in trunk).  I'll have a look into this, but probably no earlier than the weekend.
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20130201 04:38:05< irker125> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * rf22f662 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Remove unneeded division - http://git.io/YgVKxA
20130201 04:56:39< irker125> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r9b70af7 / lua/generic-rush_engine.lua : Encourage forward advancement when capturing villages - http://git.io/cOpn8w
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20130201 15:17:31< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17039 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20130201 15:17:31< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: new portraits for the Invader and Dark Knight
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20130201 16:39:37< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17040 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/images/portraits/dark-knight.png: 
20130201 16:39:37< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: fixed missing portion of Dark Knight's left hand
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20130201 16:54:43< bumbadadabum> inb4 irker
20130201 16:56:12< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17041 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/images/portraits/dark-knight.png: 
20130201 16:56:12< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: another tweak to Dark Knight's left hand
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20130201 21:31:26< pydsigner> shadowm: I can see why you warned against basing campaigns off of your code... might it make sense to have a macro file for each of your scenarios?
20130201 22:16:33-!- vultraz [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20130201 22:16:34-!- vultraz_ [~chatzilla@124.109.10.167] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
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20130201 22:19:59< mattsc> BTreeGA: around?
20130201 22:23:22< pydsigner> Hello vultraz
20130201 22:23:27< pydsigner> Hello mattsc
20130201 22:23:42< bumbadadabum> vultraz is ded
20130201 22:25:08< mattsc> pydsigner: hi
20130201 22:30:45< pydsigner> bumbadadabum: ;-/
20130201 22:31:36< pydsigner> mattsc: What's up?
20130201 22:32:08< mattsc> pydsigner: I don't know, you said hello first
20130201 22:35:29< pydsigner> Well, I was guessing you were here to talk UMC dev
20130201 22:36:58< mattsc> I have a comment/question back to BTreeGA about his post on using --rng-seed in command-line MP games.  Since he doesn't seem to be around, I'm replying to his post instead.
20130201 22:49:09< pydsigner> BTW, GFJ looked cool, are you making/have you made a sequel?
20130201 22:50:22< mattsc> Thanks.  No, but there's a prequel (of sorts) that is half done called Grnk the Mighty
20130201 22:53:42-!- mattsc [~mattsc@fw.hia.nrc.ca] has quit [Quit: I'm asleep]
20130201 23:03:39 * pydsigner is about to find out why The Attack of the Western Cavalry is 45 megs
20130201 23:03:48< bumbadadabum> music
20130201 23:05:09< pydsigner> Figured
20130201 23:06:17< pydsigner> Can see it now -- a ten meg campaign that includes nothing but text -- the context menu allows reading The Lord of the Rings :P
20130201 23:18:43-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-32-241.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20130201 23:19:29< pydsigner> Is the Grnk the Mighty about the evil boss goblin?
20130201 23:20:03< mattsc> possibly  ;)
20130201 23:20:05< pydsigner> bumbadadabum: Oddly enough, there seems to be only about 10 mb of music and sound
20130201 23:20:09< pydsigner> Heheh
20130201 23:20:18< bumbadadabum> pydsigner: Is the rest images?
20130201 23:20:29< bumbadadabum> there must be a lot of them then
20130201 23:20:38< bumbadadabum> or badly optimized
20130201 23:20:39< pydsigner> Yeah, looks like there are like 100 portraits 0_o
20130201 23:20:53< bumbadadabum> all ripped from core?
20130201 23:21:44< bumbadadabum> The best one btw is War of the Gods
20130201 23:21:49< mattsc> pydsigner: that is certainly the conclusion you are supposed to jump to (about Grnk)
20130201 23:21:54< bumbadadabum> it has I think 80mb of sprites
20130201 23:22:26< pydsigner> The whole thing is like ~65, I believe...
20130201 23:22:38< bumbadadabum> nah
20130201 23:22:39< bumbadadabum> 88
20130201 23:22:45< bumbadadabum> but that's a .tar.gz
20130201 23:22:52< pydsigner> And there are exactly 80 portraits
20130201 23:23:34< pydsigner> Most of them seem to be ripped off core/mainline
20130201 23:25:05< pydsigner> In addition, there are many which have been hacked really, really, really poorly
20130201 23:35:24< pydsigner> OK, whoever wrote this, needs some lessons in coding...
20130201 23:35:41< bumbadadabum> pydsigner: Congratulations
20130201 23:35:41< pydsigner> #1 being, don't copy macros from the core
20130201 23:35:50< bumbadadabum> you just described 99% of add-ons
20130201 23:36:06< pydsigner> Hmm, really?
20130201 23:59:34-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-20-2.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
--- Log closed Sat Feb 02 00:00:05 2013