--- Log opened Thu Feb 14 00:00:52 2013
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20130214 02:57:25< irker900> AI-Demos: mattsc master * rd16cca4 / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Fred: avoid trapping attacks that open up a village - http://git.io/BwjbUA
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20130214 03:16:52< irker900> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17109 /trunk/AtS_Music/ (music/one_thousand_suns.ogg _main.cfg): 
20130214 03:16:52< irker900> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtSM: add "One Thousand Suns" by Tyler Johnson
20130214 03:16:53< irker900> wesnoth-umc-dev: [http://r.wesnoth.org/t37537]
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20130214 06:35:16< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17110 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/factions/heroes/sylvans.cfg: 
20130214 06:35:16< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: corrected typo in Heroes era recruit list causing segfaults
20130214 06:38:35< Espreon> vultraz: Segfaults, eh?
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20130214 06:39:13< Espreon> If you truly found something that causes a segfault, I'd report it...
20130214 06:39:18< Espreon> ... if I were you.
20130214 06:40:41< vultraz> Espreon: Lord_Knightmare said this happened http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=60648&t=1
20130214 06:43:39< vultraz> Espreon: what do I do
20130214 06:47:52< Espreon> That's not a segfault.
20130214 06:48:02< Espreon> So, you did the right thing.
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20130214 06:53:30< vultraz> Espreon: what do I doooo
20130214 06:55:42< Espreon> NOTHING
20130214 06:55:50< vultraz> D:
20130214 07:06:31< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17111 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/ (272 files in 9 dirs): 
20130214 07:06:31< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: ran umcpropfix
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20130214 07:19:41< vultraz> Espreon: should we release 1.0.1 with the typofix?
20130214 07:19:47< vultraz> Pretty serious bug
20130214 07:20:59< Espreon> Jeß.
20130214 07:21:06< Espreon> vultraz: Bump teh numbers.
20130214 07:24:53< vultraz_laptop> Hang on, running wesnoth-optipng
20130214 07:32:45< Espreon> vultraz: Also, update teh changelog.
20130214 07:33:50< vultraz_laptop> Ja
20130214 07:46:10< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17112 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/images/units/ (44 files in 6 dirs): 
20130214 07:46:10< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: ran wesnoth-optipng
20130214 07:46:11< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev:   Original size: 138 KiB on 44 files
20130214 07:46:11< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev:  Optimized size: 50 KiB
20130214 07:46:12< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev:    Total saving: 88 KiB = 63% decrease
20130214 07:47:13< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17113 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/ (changelog.txt detect.cfg dist/VERSION): 
20130214 07:47:14< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: bump to version 1.0.1 and updated changelog
20130214 07:47:19< vultraz_laptop> Espreon: ^
20130214 07:51:12< Espreon> Kewl.
20130214 07:53:03< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: espreon * r17114 /tags/trunk/Era_of_Chaos/1.0.1: 
20130214 07:53:03< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: Tagged version 1.0.1 of the Era of Chaos
20130214 07:53:04< vultraz> Espreon: now make le tag
20130214 07:53:06< vultraz> ah
20130214 07:53:08< vultraz> goo
20130214 07:53:10< vultraz> d
20130214 07:53:13< vultraz> now upload
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20130214 08:01:37< vultraz> Espreon: if you're done, I'll make the forum post when the forums are done being wonky
20130214 08:01:48< Espreon> vultraz: OK
20130214 08:01:54< vultraz> done?
20130214 08:02:19< Espreon> No
20130214 08:03:48< vultraz> Ok tell me when you are
20130214 08:04:36< Espreon> You idiot.
20130214 08:04:45< Espreon> Stop putting lies in the changelog.
20130214 08:04:48< Espreon> There was no segfault.
20130214 08:04:59< Espreon> Unless it actually said segfault.
20130214 08:05:35< vultraz> then
20130214 08:05:37< vultraz> FIX
20130214 08:05:45< vultraz> I didn't know what to call that error
20130214 08:06:03< Espreon> Dude... I tagged,
20130214 08:06:04< Espreon> *.
20130214 08:06:14< vultraz> Then leave it
20130214 08:06:29< vultraz> In my experiences those errors usually preceded a crash to menu
20130214 08:06:38< vultraz> Didn't know the term for that
20130214 08:06:51< vultraz> So just call it segfault, who will know the difference
20130214 08:07:12< Espreon> I will.
20130214 08:07:36< Espreon> vultraz: Actually, you tell bumby what you did when he gets here.
20130214 08:07:42< Espreon> ... and XYZ will happen.
20130214 08:07:43< Espreon> I have to go.
20130214 08:07:45< Espreon> See ya.
20130214 08:07:57< vultraz> Hmmp
20130214 08:07:59< vultraz> cya
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20130214 10:02:37< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17115 /trunk/Era_of_Chaos/changelog.txt: 
20130214 10:02:37< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: EoC: updated changelog wording
20130214 10:04:26< vultraz> Espreon: what now
20130214 10:07:58< Espreon> Bring me... ... ... a smoothie.
20130214 10:09:19 * vultraz brings Espreon a smoothie
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20130214 10:31:11< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17116 /trunk/After_the_Storm/about.cfg: 
20130214 10:31:12< irker738> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: update credits
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20130214 15:49:17< irker085> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r7c72bff / lua/battle_calcs.lua : Fix a typo - http://git.io/_LPhFw
20130214 15:50:34< irker085> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r09ee838 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : battle_calcs attack rating: decrease value of minor rating boni - http://git.io/Odn7FA
20130214 15:52:54< irker085> AI-Demos: mattsc master * redc4429 / lua/battle_calcs.lua : battle_calcs attack rating: take defender terrain defense on attack hex into account - http://git.io/j80ROQ
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20130214 16:36:36< mattsc> skyfaller, Alarantalara: http://imagebin.org/246699
20130214 16:36:52< mattsc> Guess where the injured archer "retreats" to  :D
20130214 16:38:25< mattsc> It's one of Fred's few remaining mistakes that is both obvious and (reasonably) straightforward to fix.
20130214 16:39:28< mattsc> (oh, and to avoid misunderstandings here: Fred makes plenty of obvious mistakes ...)
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20130214 16:54:03< skyfaller> mattsc: of course he goes to take the elf village :D
20130214 16:54:31< vultraz> Idiot lvl: Orc Archer
20130214 16:56:20< mattsc> skyfaller: yep
20130214 16:56:54< vultraz> Or maybe he's depressed and wants to end it all :P 
20130214 16:57:54< mattsc> the funny thing though is that there's a "grab villages" CA which does not take the village (I changed that recently), and a separate "retreat injured units" CA that does  :)
20130214 16:58:18< mattsc> vultraz: hmm, interesting idea.  Maybe we should add a "suicide" CA.
20130214 16:58:56< skyfaller> oops :)
20130214 16:59:48< mattsc> skyfaller: actually, I am quite happy to have found something that's reasonably easy to fix.
20130214 16:59:57< vultraz> Hm, that might be useful for scenarios where you want the ai to keep pushing forward no matter what, regardless of whether they'd die or not
20130214 17:00:52< skyfaller> mattsc: well, seriously, there may be times when it is worth sacrificing a unit to distract the enemy
20130214 17:01:27< mattsc> skyfaller: sure.  One thing I have learned is that the answer to any problems is always "it depends".
20130214 17:01:41< skyfaller> like there may be times when you're trying to get your leader to safety or protect an injured lvl2, and if you can get the enemy to chase a scout into his rear instead...
20130214 17:01:42< vultraz> Or that ^ Sending a small number of units in one direction as a ploy, while keeping the main brunt of your forces somewhere else
20130214 17:01:52< mattsc> It's just really hard to teach the AI that.
20130214 17:02:33< skyfaller> yeah, it's hard to tell when an enemy would overreact to village-stealers
20130214 17:02:41< skyfaller> noobs will send their entire army after a scout
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20130214 17:06:34< mattsc> Well, for now I'll go with: intentionally sacrificing units is wrong more often than not.
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20130214 17:07:15< skyfaller> well, here's a thought experiment:
20130214 17:07:43< skyfaller> imagine you brought your leader forward to aid in an attack, but due to bad RNG or something your attack fails miserably
20130214 17:07:52< skyfaller> now you're trying to get the leader home
20130214 17:08:52< skyfaller> ... you know, nevermind, I'm not going to be able to lay down objective criteria for when a distraction is better than conventional defense
20130214 17:09:33< mattsc> dang
20130214 17:09:48< skyfaller> I was going to say that you should add up how much damage the enemy needs to kill your leader
20130214 17:10:32< skyfaller> and if sending a scout in the other direction to distract them would require them to chase it with enough units that they wouldn't be able to kill your leader...
20130214 17:10:45< skyfaller> then send the distraction
20130214 17:11:09< mattsc> But that would really only work against another AI, not against a (semi-experienced) human.
20130214 17:11:12< skyfaller> but the problem is that usually if you can use the scout to distract the relevant force, you can use the scout to block the relevant force
20130214 17:11:22< mattsc> right
20130214 17:11:25< skyfaller> so how do you choose whether to block or distract?
20130214 17:11:29< skyfaller> really, it's not about that turn
20130214 17:11:34< skyfaller> it's the next turn
20130214 17:11:49< skyfaller> once the enemy has dealt with your scout, he will either be in place to attack your retreating force again
20130214 17:12:01< skyfaller> or he'll be somewhere far back where he is not in position to attack again
20130214 17:12:51< skyfaller> so that's how you decide whether to block or distract with the scout, and I'm betting Fred isn't smart enough to think 1 turn ahead
20130214 17:13:39< skyfaller> besides, Fred probably can't calculate when sacrificing a scout would result in a strategic situation that is so much better it is worth the scout's life
20130214 17:15:00< mattsc> The problem is that if a human looks at a map, we can say intuitively that "if I move unit A here, the enemy cannot get to ... [whatever region behind it]"
20130214 17:15:25< mattsc> The computer cannot do that without a humongous amount of calculations.
20130214 17:15:34< skyfaller> :(
20130214 17:15:52< mattsc> It's easily doable with the tools we have now, but it takes way too long
20130214 17:16:49< mattsc> And I have not found a solution to that yet.  I am coming to think that it's not solvable (again, I mean in practice, not in theory)
20130214 17:17:22< skyfaller> what do you mean by "way too long"? Like seconds, minutes, hours?
20130214 17:17:49< mattsc> Well, maybe it could be done with advance pattern recognition methods or neural networks or whatever, but I don't know anything about these things
20130214 17:17:55< mattsc> minutes at least, if not longer
20130214 17:18:21< skyfaller> that's really too bad... maybe machine learning guy would have some suggestions?
20130214 17:19:37< mattsc> right, it might be possible to do something along those lines (or different lines), but that's way above my head
20130214 17:19:48< mattsc> (and SeattleDad has no time for Wesnoth for the time being)
20130214 17:19:53< skyfaller> aw :(
20130214 17:19:59< skyfaller> is it because he is a dad?
20130214 17:20:23< mattsc> I think it's because of his work, but I really don't know for sure
20130214 17:21:58< mattsc> In general, I have found that unit positioning as a group (in patterns, or formations, or whatever you want to call it) is the hardest thing about all of this and probably the most serious limitation
20130214 17:22:13< skyfaller> :( :(
20130214 17:22:23< skyfaller> if Fred can't fight in formation that will be a huge weakness
20130214 17:22:54< mattsc> Well, he does, in a way, but by considering units one at a time.
20130214 17:23:03< skyfaller> especially with certain races like elves, where special abilities like healing and leadership are key
20130214 17:23:37< skyfaller> elves like to fight in 2 lines, or in a circle with the special units in the middle
20130214 17:24:31< mattsc> Right - and as I said, we can do approximations of that - but I don't think we'll ever be able to do it in the same way as the human brain does.
20130214 17:24:47< mattsc> Or at least I won't be ...
20130214 17:24:59< skyfaller> well, HOW we do it doesn't matter, all we care about is results
20130214 17:25:48< skyfaller> if we can make sure Fred keeps special units behind the tanks but in range to aid the tanks, then it's all good
20130214 17:26:21< mattsc> I'll keep plucking away at it bit by bit and see where I get.
20130214 17:26:49< skyfaller> mattsc: so what is the state of Fred? Can you give us a state of the Fred address?
20130214 17:27:38< mattsc> ... but if anybody out there has any pointers to "pattern recognition" (might not be the right word, but I don't know a better one) methods that would help here, I'd be very interested.
20130214 17:28:09< skyfaller> I've been reading the commit logs but they aren't giving me a good sense of what is happening
20130214 17:28:45< mattsc> State of the Fred: he's doing pretty well against the RCA AI: 93% win rate against RCA across all factions, but still makes too many mistakes.
20130214 17:29:20< mattsc> I'm in the process of eliminating the most obvious and silly ones of those, like the retreat thing mentioned above.
20130214 17:30:31< mattsc> But I think the biggest general limitation is unit positioning when attacks are not involved.  And I have no real handle on how to improve that at the moment.
20130214 17:30:56< mattsc> Well, I can improve it a bit, but I am unsure about how to do it "right".
20130214 17:31:21< skyfaller> can you give us an example of a problem situation?
20130214 17:33:08< mattsc> Well, in general, you have a couple units in any part of the map (left, center, right) and a stronger enemy force approaching.  You can't attack, but must block their way as safely as possible.
20130214 17:33:25< mattsc> in order to protect the leader or villages behind you
20130214 17:34:03< mattsc> So, where and how do you set up the line so that your units are as safe as possible, but at the same time block enough until support units come up.
20130214 17:34:42< mattsc> Fred does pretty well more often than not, but the times when he does something completely stupid happen still way too often.
20130214 17:35:39< mattsc> So the problem is not to make it work in one specific situation, that can always be done, but to have it work under all (or almost all) circumstances.
20130214 17:36:47< skyfaller> well, if you could make it work in any situation on a given map, then you could do that map by map, no? :D
20130214 17:37:13< mattsc> Right.  That's a big IF though.
20130214 17:37:42< mattsc> I'm still only working on Freelands with Fred, although in principle the limitations to work only on Freelands have been removed.
20130214 17:37:48< skyfaller> well, it's a fact that on Freelands there is a limited number of places that you can reasonably set up a defensive line
20130214 17:41:39< mattsc> Well, as I said, I keep nibbling away at it.  With the amount of time I have right now, it will take me a couple more weeks to get rid of some of the obvious stuff.
20130214 17:42:14< mattsc> skyfaller: on a different note, the bar exams are in the last week of February?
20130214 17:42:30< skyfaller> yep, Feb 26-28, after that I can be more helpful :)
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20130214 17:43:04< mattsc> well, I'm asking because I am on a business trip that week and had problems getting a hotel  :)
20130214 17:43:27< skyfaller> hahaha
20130214 17:43:38< mattsc> Anyways, good luck with that.  I need to move on to my day job now.
20130214 17:43:50< skyfaller> if you want to trek out to suburban New Jersey I can tell my parents that my friend from the internet needs a place to crash ;-)
20130214 17:44:00< mattsc> :D
20130214 17:44:02< skyfaller> ok, have fun!
20130214 17:44:09< mattsc> Unfortunately, I'll be on the other coast.
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 15 00:00:02 2013