--- Log opened Sat Feb 16 00:00:20 2013
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20130216 00:44:31< mattsc> Hey
20130216 00:46:23< pydsigner> mattsc: You should add some plot to the AI demos
20130216 00:48:02< mattsc> pydsigner: maybe, it's really meant as a code demonstration rather than a playable campaign though.
20130216 00:48:14< mattsc> For people to cut and paste into their campaigns, and adapt as needed.
20130216 00:48:56< mattsc> Maybe once I actually have a decently working MP AI together...
20130216 01:10:04< pydsigner> Hehe
20130216 01:34:14< pydsigner> Aeranor looks like a ton of fun
20130216 01:35:21< pydsigner> smaster: What's new in 0.8.5? Any new storyline?
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20130216 02:41:18< pydsigner> Does anyone else think it's a good idea to allow mixins in MP setup?
20130216 03:13:34< pydsigner> How does one do a composite add-on icon?
20130216 03:13:48< pydsigner> (Like that of The Greatest Quest)
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20130216 03:43:44< mattsc> pydsigner: with any graphics program, or with this:
20130216 03:44:09< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ImagePathFunctionWML
20130216 03:47:35< pydsigner> mattsc, the problem with using a graphics program is that no-one else will see it...
20130216 03:48:00< pydsigner> And thanks
20130216 03:48:57< Alarantalara> mattsc: I'm slightly worried about the enemy threat cut-off for retreating. Because regenerating units are considered only after non-regenerating ones, if there is a non-regenerating unit that can't retreat because of this, you might leave the regenerating units stranded
20130216 03:53:44< pydsigner> Oh, mattsc, about your AI mod, I have a problem to report with the chokepoint AI
20130216 03:55:51< mattsc> pydsigner: true, I wasn't thinking that it wouldn't show up before the people downloaded the add-on.  The IPF thing should work though, I think.
20130216 03:56:25< pydsigner> ?? Several times a close-to-advance, full-health unit was placed at the weakest point at the worst time and was killed.
20130216 03:57:13< mattsc> Alarantalara: the new implementation is only meant to be a first step.  It's too drastic the way it is, I agree.  But I haven't had time for the next step uet.
20130216 03:57:15< mattsc> yet
20130216 03:58:08< mattsc> My goal is to retreat injured unit to save places first, the do other moves with other units, and maybe some of them (like the hold_zone CA) might open up new save locations.  If not, retreat to the best location you can find.
20130216 03:58:33< mattsc> (and apparently my grammar doesn't work today, but I hope it makes sense anyway)
20130216 03:59:14< mattsc> save -> safe, the -> then, the people -> people etc.
20130216 03:59:43< Alarantalara> So you'd plan to run it twice, once with a low limit, then again with no limit at lower priority?
20130216 03:59:47< mattsc> pydsigner: do you have a replay of such a situation?
20130216 04:00:23< mattsc> Well, not _run_ it twice.  Run it once, either execute or save the result, then reconsider if no other action was done.
20130216 04:00:39< mattsc> One of the other CAs already does something like that, let me check ...
20130216 04:01:08< Alarantalara> That still doesn't deal with regenerating units with safe moves.
20130216 04:01:33< mattsc> Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.
20130216 04:01:57< mattsc> Yes, you're right.  I'll need to do that differently.  Thanks.
20130216 04:02:23< pydsigner> mattsc, yes I do.
20130216 04:02:51< mattsc> Could you post that in the Coders Corner thread and I have a look at it.
20130216 04:03:04< mattsc> Also, is this with 1.10 or 1.11?
20130216 04:03:07< pydsigner> 1.10
20130216 04:03:13< pydsigner> Also, I'm not on the forum
20130216 04:03:26< mattsc> Could you get it to me some other way then?
20130216 04:03:38< pydsigner> Yeah, what are the other options?
20130216 04:04:08< mattsc> 1.10 might be the problem.  We've discontinued support for 1.10, but I can't say for sure until I see what's going on.
20130216 04:04:45< mattsc> I think even pastebin will work, if you gunzip it first.
20130216 04:07:05< mattsc> Alarantalara: thanks, that should be pretty easy to fix actually.  Btw, there was a bug in the retreating regenerating units code that means that it probably never worked before.
20130216 04:07:23< Alarantalara> thanks
20130216 04:07:23< pydsigner> You're right, it is plain-text inside
20130216 04:07:33< pydsigner> I knew that
20130216 04:08:38< mattsc> pydsigner: thanks for the report, much appreciated.  But AI_demos should ...  oh ...
20130216 04:09:06< mattsc> I just noticed, you are using 1.10 with the version you got from the 1.10 add-ons server, I presume?
20130216 04:09:59< pydsigner> Yeah
20130216 04:10:13< pydsigner> Have you rewritten that code?
20130216 04:10:19< mattsc> That version is *way* outdated and probably contains a number of bugs.  I should, in fact, probably take it off the server.
20130216 04:10:31< pydsigner> Ah
20130216 04:11:09< mattsc> Some while ago (must be close to half a year ago, I guess), we started using some things that are available in 1.11 only.  So you should really use the 1.11 version for your testing.
20130216 04:11:13< pydsigner> But just as another thing to consider, that version did not utilize the level 2 leader enough
20130216 04:11:31< mattsc> Sorry, I should have noticed that right away.
20130216 04:12:37< mattsc> The side leader is intentionally used less than the other units, in order to play it safe.
20130216 04:13:14< mattsc> That is, however, something the scenario designer can change in the new (1.11) version of the AI, so the capability is there in the code.
20130216 04:13:45< Alarantalara> I assume pydesigner is talking about taking advantage of the leadership ability to boost attacks, not actually attacking
20130216 04:14:20< mattsc> Oh, do you?  (apparently I am suffering from reading comprehension problems tonight)
20130216 04:15:18< Alarantalara> It's not directly stated and you have to remember that the leader has leadership in this case
20130216 04:15:26< mattsc> If so, yes, that is correct.  The current version does not take leadership into account.
20130216 04:15:27< Alarantalara> so I think you can be forgiven this one
20130216 04:15:36< mattsc> phew!  :)
20130216 04:16:32< mattsc> Alarantalara: Fred's still somewhat in a state of disarray at the moment.  I am slowly working away at it, but time for Wesnoth is a bit more limited than it used to be, so it's slow going.
20130216 04:17:32< mattsc> I keep hoping to be able to report an improvement of Drakes vs. Northerners to you, but so far I have not found anything that's statistically significant.
20130216 04:24:10< Alarantalara> I think it's going to need to involve some serious retreating at night
20130216 04:24:32< Alarantalara> I can't think of anything obvious that doesn't hurt other factions, though
20130216 04:30:01< mattsc> Hmm, I still have enough other problems to solve first.  The retreating at night might automatically fall out of a couple things I'd like to do.  Whether that's enough or not I don't know yet.
20130216 04:30:46< Alarantalara> Why did you make the enemy reach penalty so high?
20130216 04:31:25< Alarantalara> It makes sense in terms of trying to do safe moves first, but I'm curious why you want to prioritize those?
20130216 04:31:41< mattsc> Because I think getting a severely injured unit to a safe place is the single most important thing for retreating.
20130216 04:32:14< mattsc> Severely injured means essentially that a single enemy has a good chance of killing it
20130216 04:32:29< Alarantalara> What's safer? 70% and two enemies or 40% and one enemy?
20130216 04:32:34< mattsc> But again, it's just a first step.  Trying out what works and what doesn't.
20130216 04:32:35< pydsigner> <Alarantalara> I assume pydesigner is talking about taking advantage of the leadership ability to boost attacks, not actually attacking    [ mattsc is right, the leadership is used
20130216 04:33:48< mattsc> It's an experiment right now to see how well this works.  I am almost certain that it will not remain that way.
20130216 04:34:06< Alarantalara> Or possibly more likely: 40% and 2 or 20% and 1 (which is reasonably likely on Freelands)
20130216 04:36:47< mattsc> Alarantalara: I agree, it's imperfect.  I'm just taking it a step at a time.  That's what I mean, things are a bit in disarray right now.
20130216 04:37:03< pydsigner> (My comment is not that I don't think that the leader is not used well enough, but that mattsc's comprehension was working)
20130216 04:37:10< mattsc> And the answer to the "which is better" question is the usual: it depends.
20130216 04:37:34< mattsc> It depends on the number of strikes and damage either of those units can do etc.
20130216 04:38:20< mattsc> So, just making the number of units that can reach a hex the sole criterion is not the right thing to do either.  But I needed to start somewhere.
20130216 04:39:13< pydsigner> Maybe start with a "danger" quantifier
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20130216 04:40:56< irker774> AI-Demos: mattsc master * refbc2b6 / lua/retreat.lua : Fred: make sure injured regenerating units are not stranded if no ... - http://git.io/CYP6gw
20130216 04:41:36< mattsc> pydsigner: yes, in principle.  In practice, it's never as easy as it seems.  But that's what I am working toward.
20130216 04:41:59< mattsc> Alarantalara: ^ not a perfect solution either, but for now it will work, I think.
20130216 04:42:14 * pydsigner sighs
20130216 04:42:26< pydsigner> It'd be much easier with the noluck era :P
20130216 04:42:57< mattsc> pydsigner: no, actually, it wouldn't be.  It would just be different.
20130216 04:43:09< mattsc> But the whole spatial reasoning problem would still be the same.
20130216 04:43:32< pydsigner> mattsc: But you wouldn't have to worry about chance-to-hit?
20130216 04:44:23< Alarantalara> It actually doesn't come up that much
20130216 04:45:31< Alarantalara> For instance, when retreating an injured unit, you don't really care if it has a 75% chance to die or a 100%, either way you want to move it out of range
20130216 04:45:50< pydsigner> But at what point do you just leave it to die?
20130216 04:46:14< pydsigner> (if you can't get it far enough away from all attacks)
20130216 04:46:33< Alarantalara> and once there are multiple units on each side, where any one could be killed, but not all of them, you still have to guess which the opponent will attack
20130216 04:47:18 * pydsigner sighs again
20130216 04:47:25< pydsigner> AI is way too complex
20130216 04:49:40< Alarantalara> The only real benefit to no-luck would be that it would be easier to maximize the amount of damage dealt by dealing the smallest amount of damage that is enough to kill the unit
20130216 04:49:53< Alarantalara> and that attack chains would be easier to evaluate
20130216 04:50:15< Alarantalara> since you can assume enemy units are dead
20130216 04:51:29< Alarantalara> It does nothing for zone of control, pinning, capturing villages, recruiting units, etc.
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20130216 05:51:31< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17125 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/units/khthon/ (5 files): 
20130216 05:51:32< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: some khthon unit touch-ups
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20130216 08:01:56< irker774> AI-Demos: Alarantalara master * r059362f / lua/retreat.lua : Count amount of hp healed when choosing location to retreat to - http://git.io/ZRkhzg
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20130216 12:10:57< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: bumbadadabum * r17126 /trunk/The_Voids_Tears/scenarios/03_Defending_Information.cfg: 
20130216 12:10:58< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: TVT: made S3 easier
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20130216 15:36:53< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17127 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/units/khthon/ (4 files): 
20130216 15:36:54< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: khthon turtle sprite touch-ups
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20130216 16:11:17< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17128 /trunk/Archaic_Era/images/units/khthon/ (rockback.png adamantine.png): 
20130216 16:11:17< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: khthon turtle sprite touch-ups
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20130216 20:43:29< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: bumbadadabum * r17129 /trunk/The_Voids_Tears/ (10 files in 7 dirs): 
20130216 20:43:29< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: TVT: added roaming ghosts to S2
20130216 20:44:15< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: bumbadadabum * r17130 /trunk/The_Voids_Tears/utils/roaming_ghosts.cfg: 
20130216 20:44:16< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: TVT: hide the roaming ghost sides
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 17 00:00:23 2013