--- Log opened Mon Feb 18 00:00:56 2013
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20130218 00:15:11< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: mrdarkunknown * r17144 /trunk/World_of_Wesnoth/utils/global_events.cfg: 
20130218 00:15:12< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: Okay, now it should be playable to a certain extent. No graphics, use only Barbarian or Fencer, after level 7, additional skills will have no effect because they are not coded yet.
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20130218 00:48:55< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17145 /trunk/Trinity/ (30 files in 2 dirs): 
20130218 00:48:56< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: some profile/portrait work, mostly finished
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20130218 01:54:59< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17146 /trunk/After_the_Storm/units/shaxthal/Turret.cfg: 
20130218 01:54:59< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: reduce Shaxthal Turret's attack strength from 13-3 to 13-2
20130218 01:58:50< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17147 /trunk/After_the_Storm/ (units/demons/Shapeshifter.cfg changelog): 
20130218 01:58:51< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: decreased Demon Shapeshifter's ranged attack from 8-2 to 7-2
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20130218 02:12:57< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17148 /trunk/After_the_Storm/units/demons/Lumeril_Guard.cfg: 
20130218 02:12:58< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: remove the magical weapon special from the Lumeril Guard's ranged attack
20130218 02:21:41< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17149 /trunk/Trinity/utils/sides.cfg: 
20130218 02:21:42< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: removed the global_variable aspect from the side-switching macros, needs testing
20130218 02:22:31< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17150 /trunk/Trinity/images/portraits/ (seth.png caldera.png): 
20130218 02:22:32< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: portrait touch-ups
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20130218 06:57:28< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17151 /trunk/Trinity/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20130218 06:57:29< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: some minor text changes to first scenarios, and some fixes to 'Storming Weldyn' scenario.  Releasing 1.1.1
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20130218 07:46:12< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17152 /trunk/After_the_Storm/mainline-strings.cfg: 
20130218 07:46:12< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: add TSTR_NO_OBJECTIVES_AVAILABLE macro
20130218 07:46:13< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: This is a gettext proxy macro for the "No objectives available." string
20130218 07:46:13< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: in mainline.
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20130218 08:20:46< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17153 /trunk/After_the_Storm/about.cfg: 
20130218 08:20:47< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: update credits and resort some entries breaking first-char alphanumerical order
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20130218 09:43:17< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17154 /trunk/NX-RPG/about.cfg: 
20130218 09:43:18< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: updated credits and ordered entires alphabetically 
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20130218 09:45:50< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17155 /trunk/NX-RPG/changelog: 
20130218 09:45:51< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: updated chagelong
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20130218 09:49:48< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17156 /trunk/NX-RPG/macros/scenario-utils.cfg: 
20130218 09:49:49< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: Le period is needed
20130218 09:51:21< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17157 /trunk/NX-RPG/about.cfg: 
20130218 09:51:21< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: fixed typo in artisticdude's name
20130218 09:52:19< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: shikadilord * r17158 /trunk/After_the_Storm/about.cfg: 
20130218 09:52:20< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: AtS: update with artisticdude's full credits entry
20130218 10:00:52< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17159 /trunk/NX-RPG/images/units/humans-northguard/nightshaft.png: 
20130218 10:00:53< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: added baseframe for the Northguard Nightshaft
20130218 10:05:34< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17160 /trunk/NX-RPG/units/humans/Northguard_Deathblade.cfg: 
20130218 10:05:34< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: increased Northguard Deathblade's attack from 6-4 to 7-4
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20130218 11:18:14< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r17161 /trunk/NX-RPG/units/humans/ (3 files): 
20130218 11:18:14< irker774> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: base WML files for Northguard Archer, Silverbow, and Nightshaft
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20130218 17:54:27< mattsc> Alarantalara: I've noticed that Fred (as Northerners) doesn't hire wolf riders any more at all, at least not in the opening moves
20130218 17:57:21< Alarantalara> one should appear against undead, but yes, it evaluates wolf riders as particularly bad units and thinks assassins are generally more effectoive even though they're slightly slower
20130218 17:58:37< mattsc> ok.  it changes somewhat how village grabbing and offensive/defensive positioning happens in the west on Freelands, but nothing we shouldn't be able to figure out
20130218 18:06:24< mattsc> Alarantalara: actually, when Fred plays Drakes and gets the right combination of quick units, sometimes we end up with 4 units in the west at the end of Turn 2.  Which leaves everything else wide open.
20130218 18:07:08< mattsc> Of course, 3 of those can generally make it back to the center by the next move (since they are quick)
20130218 18:19:16< Alarantalara> Might it make more sense to attack on the left if we happen to have a large concentration there due to other causes
20130218 18:20:46< mattsc> Possibly.  Depends on how many enemy units are storming up through the middle, I think
20130218 18:27:13< mattsc> skyfaller (and Alarantalara): in this situation: http://imagebin.org/247187 where would you move the grunt and the archer?
20130218 18:27:50< mattsc> Both of them are quick, and no other unit can get into this region.
20130218 18:28:02< skyfaller> is it morning or afternoon?
20130218 18:28:28< mattsc> dusk
20130218 18:28:39< skyfaller> ah, so we should be advancing
20130218 18:28:59< mattsc> yes, but where to exactly?
20130218 18:29:08< skyfaller> let's advance so that the elf archer can shoot the orc archer if it wants to
20130218 18:29:25< skyfaller> and have the grunt just out of range of the archer
20130218 18:29:47< skyfaller> so maybe have the orc archer walk two hexes south
20130218 18:29:54< skyfaller> and have the grunt stand right behind him?
20130218 18:30:13< skyfaller> if the elf archer comes forward to attack, he'll be on bad terrain at night
20130218 18:30:21< skyfaller> and we might be able to trap
20130218 18:30:58< mattsc> Thsi is what Fred does currently: http://imagebin.org/247188
20130218 18:31:09< skyfaller> yeah that's dumb
20130218 18:31:22< skyfaller> although I can kind of see why he might think that's a good idea
20130218 18:31:26< mattsc> That's why I am trying to fix it  :)
20130218 18:31:26< skyfaller> you want to deny forests to elves
20130218 18:31:50< skyfaller> but the elf would be really stupid to jump into that forest as night is approaching
20130218 18:32:13< skyfaller> if he wants to get trapped, let him
20130218 18:32:45< mattsc> Well, currently I am generally testing the RCA AI, so the elf archer is dumb ...
20130218 18:32:51< skyfaller> fair enough :)
20130218 18:32:57< mattsc> ... but the goal is, of course, to make this work better against humans in the end
20130218 18:33:05< skyfaller> my point is that if an elf wants to get trapped at night, then we should let him
20130218 18:33:10< skyfaller> we don't need to deny the forest
20130218 18:33:27< mattsc> So I am really interested in the strategy one would use against a human opponent, I am just testing against the RCA because I am lazy
20130218 18:33:47< mattsc> Sounds good.
20130218 18:33:54< skyfaller> you might even be able to block him from reaching the forest by pushing 3 hexes south of the village instead of 2
20130218 18:33:58< mattsc> Of course, that mage down there is a problem to the grunt as well
20130218 18:34:01< skyfaller> but I'm not sure, can't tell from here
20130218 18:34:08< skyfaller> the mage is useless at night
20130218 18:34:16< mattsc> ok
20130218 18:34:21< skyfaller> and if we're fighting on flat
20130218 18:34:24< mattsc> One of the problems with what you suggest:
20130218 18:34:39< skyfaller> the mage doesn't get much of a magic bonus
20130218 18:35:01< mattsc> The general positioning used is to spread out in lines (east-west on Freelands), in order to keep the opponent from advancing north
20130218 18:35:26< mattsc> Now we want to "hide" the orc right behind the archer.
20130218 18:35:46< skyfaller> yeah, b/c if the elf attacks we want him to take retal
20130218 18:35:47< mattsc> I'm not sure how to tell the AI when to do one and when the other ...
20130218 18:35:53< skyfaller> we don't want to give free hits on the grunt
20130218 18:36:13< skyfaller> well, Fred needs to understand tanks
20130218 18:36:20< mattsc> Yeah, I understand that.  Now tell me how to pound that into Fred's thick skull  :)
20130218 18:36:36< skyfaller> we usually use melee units as tanks b/c they usually have more HP for less gold
20130218 18:36:50< skyfaller> normally you ought to hide ranged units behind grunts and trolls
20130218 18:37:25< skyfaller> but if the only attackers in range are ranged units, it can be better to reverse that and use your ranged units as tanks
20130218 18:37:45< mattsc> Well, see, the thing is, normally I don't have enough units to hide others behind them (at least not healthy units)
20130218 18:37:49< skyfaller> I would only do that at favorable times of day, though
20130218 18:38:15< mattsc> So sometimes I need to use them to set up lines blocking other "things" (villages, the leader, injured units).
20130218 18:38:16< skyfaller> like I wouldn't tank with an orc archer at day unless there is a ctk, not enough retal to make it worthwhile
20130218 18:38:32< mattsc> And sometimes I want to block the enemy from the healthy units themselves.
20130218 18:38:58< skyfaller> why don't you usually have enough units to hide some? Orcs are the best at producing lots of units
20130218 18:39:30< skyfaller> orcs is the last faction that I would expect to run out of units
20130218 18:39:40< mattsc> Right, but to first order the enemy has the same number of units
20130218 18:40:09< mattsc> when he throws all units forward, and I have a couple injured ones in between, I can't hide half of the remaining healthy units.
20130218 18:40:26< skyfaller> that's true
20130218 18:40:27< mattsc> But we're getting sidetracked a bit ...
20130218 18:40:36< skyfaller> I mean, I'm not going to cry if we lose an orc archer
20130218 18:40:41< skyfaller> unless it was about to level
20130218 18:40:50< mattsc> Whatever the specifics, sometimes I want to block with an archer (or grunt), and sometimes I don't.
20130218 18:41:10< mattsc> For Fred to understand this, I need an equation ...
20130218 18:41:10< skyfaller> it's not as important to form multiple lines with orcs as it is with other factions
20130218 18:41:46< mattsc> An equation the works pretty well in all circumstances, not just in this particular case ...
20130218 18:41:52< skyfaller> I mean, it's going to be complicated
20130218 18:42:01< mattsc> indeed
20130218 18:42:07< skyfaller> you usually want units that are cheap and have lots of HP, so grunts and trolls are your mainstays
20130218 18:42:27< skyfaller> but grunts and trolls have different vulnerabilities
20130218 18:42:42< skyfaller> so where you place the grunts and trolls in your lines varies depending on the enemy attackers
20130218 18:43:13< skyfaller> so if there is a ghoul in range, you want to form your line so that trolls are in range of the ghoul and grunts are inconvenient or impossible for the ghoul to reach
20130218 18:43:29< mattsc> Yes - now could you rephrase this in form of a mathematical equation, please?  :)
20130218 18:43:58< skyfaller> OK, you have a default, which is trolls and grunts, and you shuffle them around depending on vulnerabilities to enemy attacks
20130218 18:44:20< mattsc> that's still English, not maths  ;)
20130218 18:44:22< skyfaller> if there is a certain percentage of enemy attackers who are ranged attackers, you should put ranged defenders in front instead of the usual grunts or trolls
20130218 18:44:35< skyfaller> I'm trying to write pseudocode, give me a break :P
20130218 18:44:44< mattsc> :P
20130218 18:45:50< skyfaller> I mean, the thing is that you will want e.g. wolves and assassins on the wings
20130218 18:46:01< skyfaller> you want to form a line so that enemy scouts can't slip around the sides
20130218 18:46:24< skyfaller> you just don't want those units to bear the brunt of the attack, as a general rule
20130218 18:46:50< skyfaller> and once you have succeeded in forming a line that can't be circumvented, then you start stacking vulnerable units behind the front line
20130218 18:47:13< skyfaller> so you identify the points that the most enemy attackers can reach
20130218 18:47:37< skyfaller> and you put the units that are least likely to die at those critical locations
20130218 18:47:52< skyfaller> I mean, identify the points where the enemy can deal the most damage
20130218 18:47:59< skyfaller> that's different in crucial ways
20130218 18:48:13< skyfaller> but might be harder to calculate, since it partly depends on what units you place there
20130218 18:48:18< skyfaller> gah
20130218 18:48:35< skyfaller> and what their vulnerabilities are
20130218 18:49:06< skyfaller> the thing is that if you are forming your line correctly, the enemy should never be able to bring more than 3 units to bear
20130218 18:49:25< skyfaller> so it doesn't really matter if 6 units can reach that location
20130218 18:49:53< skyfaller> what matters is if the 3 units the enemy can bring to bear are enough to kill your defender
20130218 18:50:29< skyfaller> so you place the toughest unit you have at that weak point, but "toughest unit" depends on the attackers and your vulnerabilities
20130218 18:51:27< skyfaller> an assassin could be the "toughest unit" if the enemy is a lvl2 horseman that could kill even a grunt in one strike, but your assassin is more likely to dodge
20130218 18:52:32< skyfaller> once you have put the toughest units on the key points, fill out the line with lesser units
20130218 18:52:53< skyfaller> and then start stacking injured or more vulnerable units or units that deal less retal behind that line
20130218 18:52:58< mattsc> well, that is exactly what I am trying to do, but ...
20130218 18:54:49< mattsc> There are little phrases in what you are saying like "if you form your line correctly" that aren't quite trivial to teach a computer.
20130218 18:54:54< skyfaller> right :)
20130218 18:54:56< mattsc> Or at least I don't know how to do it.
20130218 18:55:10< mattsc> But anyways, thanks.  This was useful.
20130218 18:55:36< skyfaller> hm... I wish I could be more helpful
20130218 18:55:56< mattsc> Me too.  :)
20130218 18:56:15< mattsc> But unless you suddenly start coding some of this positioning stuff, this is what I need atm
20130218 18:56:32< skyfaller> well, the definition of a good line is one that can't easily be broken, in the sense of allowing units to be trapped or key spots (villages) to be taken by the enemy
20130218 18:57:22< skyfaller> in most circumstances it's also best if you can create the line using as few units as possible, e.g. by leaving 2 hexes between units
20130218 18:57:53< skyfaller> but if you think the enemy can kill a unit in your line, then it may be better to have redundancy, so that removing a unit doesn't break the line
20130218 18:58:01< mattsc> Yeah - it's the whole "if I go here, where can the enemy go" that is prohibitive in terms of calculation requirements.
20130218 18:58:33< skyfaller> right, and I don't really know how to help with that :/
20130218 18:58:35< mattsc> It's trivial to do, but there are so many combinations once more than one unit is involved, that it just can't be done.
20130218 18:58:49< skyfaller> Once I finish the bar exam at the end of this month, I'll start digging into Lua and Wesnoth again
20130218 18:59:03< mattsc> trivial in theory, can't be done in practice, I mean.
20130218 18:59:12< mattsc> Cool.
20130218 18:59:17< skyfaller> we are still writing everything in Lua, right?
20130218 18:59:34< mattsc> Btw, I do have a bonus in the position rating for hexes that are 3 hexes away from units that have already moved.
20130218 18:59:52< skyfaller> mattsc: what do you mean?
20130218 19:00:01< skyfaller> why do you have that bonus?
20130218 19:00:10< mattsc> So that's supposed to take care of the leave 2 hexes between, as you just said
20130218 19:00:18< mattsc> between units
20130218 19:00:37< skyfaller> oh, got it
20130218 19:00:53< mattsc> But that's exactly the reason why the grunt ends up where it does in the example I showed you
20130218 19:01:08< skyfaller> I guess that means there may be better ways to calculate that....
20130218 19:01:37< mattsc> I'm sure there are.  Somebody tell me.  Please?  :)
20130218 19:01:42< skyfaller> for example, if there are impassable hexes (or mountains that are impassable to some units like cavalry) you may be able to have even more space
20130218 19:02:08< mattsc> Right - requiring even more calculations ...
20130218 19:02:21< skyfaller> :/
20130218 19:02:46< skyfaller> you could just wait for Moore's law to catch up with your calculation requirements :D
20130218 19:02:49< mattsc> Btw, I am not arguing that what you say is wrong at all, I just have no idea how to put that into the code in a way that can be done in a reasonable amount of time.
20130218 19:02:59< mattsc> yeah
20130218 19:03:36< mattsc> Anyways, you did tell me what I wanted to know for now.  So I'll keep working away at it.
20130218 19:03:47< mattsc> Just don't expect any miracles over night  :)
20130218 19:03:52< skyfaller> OK :)
20130218 19:04:04< skyfaller> but we're still talking about minutes for calculations, right?
20130218 19:04:20< skyfaller> b/c if it's minutes, there may be some ways to optimize them or shortcuts we can do to get them into a reasonable amount of time
20130218 19:04:26< skyfaller> if it's hours or days it's hopeless
20130218 19:04:32< mattsc> If you really wanted to do everything, we're probably talking days.
20130218 19:04:54< mattsc> So we need to be smart about things, rather than just doing it brute force.
20130218 19:05:11< skyfaller> I guess maybe what we should do are figure out the ideal calculations we really want to do, and then figure out stupid approximations that have the same effect most of the time?
20130218 19:05:23< mattsc> I mean, your brain doesn't do all the calculations either, it's just able to reject the majority of case without even considering them
20130218 19:05:37< Alarantalara> Also, minutes on Freelands could easily become hours or days on Cynsaun. Non-linear growth is like that.
20130218 19:05:51< skyfaller> ah, good point :/
20130218 19:06:11< skyfaller> yeah, humans are amazing at pattern recognition, I don't do calculations, I just see formations I've seen before and I know how to handle them
20130218 19:07:02< mattsc> I'm sometimes wondering whether I should work with templates ...
20130218 19:07:32< mattsc> Have a certain number of pre-defined relative unit positions that get evaluated, rather than all possible cases.
20130218 19:08:09< mattsc> The problem is that that can easily get out of hand too
20130218 19:08:38< mattsc> Also, I do want code that can be optimized for specific maps, but will work on any map (even if maybe less effectively)
20130218 19:08:43< skyfaller> maybe just do that for the formations we are most likely to see? :/
20130218 19:09:02< mattsc> Maybe.
20130218 19:09:13< skyfaller> like, there are things we see every time we play Freelands, like people forming lines at the village that everyone attacks
20130218 19:09:49< mattsc> I've been wondering about something like that too.
20130218 19:09:53< mattsc> Anyways, I need to move on to other and less important things.  Thanks for the discussion.
20130218 19:10:00< skyfaller> ok :)
20130218 19:10:02< skyfaller> have a good day!
20130218 19:10:20< mattsc> You too.  Don't fry your brain too much.
20130218 19:10:33< skyfaller> too late :P
20130218 19:10:41< mattsc> :)  cheers
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20130218 23:40:01< irker305> wesnoth-umc-dev: doofus-01 * r17162 /trunk/Archaic_Era/ (7 files in 4 dirs): 
20130218 23:40:01< irker305> wesnoth-umc-dev: some updates to khthon
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 19 00:00:16 2013