--- Log opened Sat Mar 23 00:00:01 2013
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20130323 00:31:02< shadowm> Ivanovic: Mind if I commit a wesnoth-optipng pass I just did on mainline, or is there any particular reason you haven't done so yourself for a while?
20130323 00:32:37< shadowm> http://pastebin.com/zYuGdeaC
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20130323 00:34:46< shadowm> The "broken" files report: http://pastebin.com/bzC1JQRu
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20130323 01:39:17< AI0867> one more tiny thing that should be changed when we move the repo: the URL in the players_changelog
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20130323 01:54:42< _Coffee> you guys here look like you've got everything pretty much pegged for the transition to git
20130323 01:55:34< _Coffee> a couple of years ago I wanted to contribute to a game called supertux, but couldn't find the current repository
20130323 01:56:00< _Coffee> because they moved it a couple of times and didn't update the documentation as to where the current development was taking place
20130323 01:56:14< _Coffee> pretty much killing the development I think for a while
20130323 01:58:56< _Coffee> you guys seem to be doing a much better job than some other open source projects
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20130323 02:51:53< shadowm> _Coffee: Yeah, I guess that's just one of the many problems with ST's development.
20130323 02:51:53< shadowm> Wesnoth lacks proper organization nowadays, but this isn't as harmful as it is for an immature project like ST.
20130323 02:51:53< shadowm> As far as I know Wesnoth had pretty good organization when it was in that stage (2003-2005, before 1.0).
20130323 02:52:40< shadowm> I may be wrong, but that's the impression I've got from past forum threads.
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20130323 02:58:26-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: waiting for mordante before releasing 1.11.2 | 171 bugs, 333 feature requests, 19 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130323 02:58:26-!- Topic set by Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] [Thu Mar 21 21:22:53 2013]
20130323 02:58:26[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20130323 02:58:26[ _8680_         ] [ esr      ] [ lobby          ] [ skyfaller] 
20130323 02:58:26[ _Coffee        ] [ ettin_   ] [ loonycyborg    ] [ Smar     ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ AI0867         ] [ exciton  ] [ LordNasty      ] [ Soliton  ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ Anakonda       ] [ fendrin_ ] [ mattsc         ] [ Soundlust] 
20130323 02:58:26[ apoi           ] [ Gallaecio] [ melinath       ] [ timotei  ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ balrog         ] [ Gambit   ] [ oldtopman      ] [ ToBeFree ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ Blueblaze      ] [ happygrue] [ rei4dan        ] [ Upth     ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ cjhopman       ] [ Ingmar   ] [ Rhonda         ] [ Upthorn  ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ crimson_penguin] [ isaac    ] [ Samual         ] [ vultraz  ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ ejls           ] [ Ivanovic ] [ shadowm        ] [ wesbot   ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ elias          ] [ iwaim    ] [ shadowm_desktop] [ witness  ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ enchiladnot    ] [ janebot  ] [ shikadibot     ] [ yann     ] 
20130323 02:58:26[ Espreon        ] [ knotwork ] [ Sirp           ] [ {V}      ] 
20130323 02:58:26-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 52 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 52 normal]
20130323 02:58:32-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20130323 02:58:37< _Coffee> yes, they get over it quick
20130323 02:58:46< _Coffee> because they want to play wesnoth still
20130323 02:59:06< shadowm> I suppose Facebook is a more modern example of what I mean with this.
20130323 02:59:18< shadowm> Facebook's design changes everyone in a while, people whine about it, and they continue to use it.
20130323 02:59:26< shadowm> (Note: I don't use Facebook.)
20130323 02:59:54-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 95 secs
20130323 03:00:16< shadowm> I guess a more physical analogy would be the behavior pattern I've observed on cats whenever their rooms are rearranged in some significant way.
20130323 03:00:23< shadowm> *analogous
20130323 03:01:08< shadowm> They are all like "everything changed oh no im scared please somebody save me i want my mommy" at first.
20130323 03:01:31< shadowm> Give them a while, and they get accustomed to the changes.
20130323 03:02:42< _Coffee> after playing for a while (you may be more involved for longer) I can't think of any area that went backwards
20130323 03:02:55< _Coffee> except for one or 2 bugs
20130323 03:03:31< shadowm> The only thing that I haven't got used to yet is the increased animations length.
20130323 03:03:46< _Coffee> oh yeah, there's that
20130323 03:04:01< shadowm> It's downright annoying when I want to seriously play a game instead of marveling at the art.
20130323 03:04:05< _Coffee> but with the running animations it might be more bearable
20130323 03:04:12< shadowm> No, not really.
20130323 03:04:33< shadowm> But as I said the other day, I unwittingly implemented a solution in advance.
20130323 03:04:37< _Coffee> it's hard to watch a unit sliding contorted across the landscape
20130323 03:05:04< _Coffee> but if it is running, and maybe some hat amusing for the odd unit (like goblin) I think it would be fine
20130323 03:05:13< _Coffee> this is what a new player to wesnoth sees
20130323 03:05:30< _Coffee> when they first start heir to the thrown for the first time
20130323 03:05:31< shadowm> Yes, I suppose the animations may be more enticing to new players.
20130323 03:05:48< shadowm> I'm just not sure if the animation speed slider's discoverability is optimal atm.
20130323 03:06:06< shadowm> I mean, sure, it is on the first page of Preferences.
20130323 03:06:14< shadowm> But how many people even bother to check Preferences?
20130323 03:06:21< _Coffee> well, that's why you are working on GUI3 isn't it :D
20130323 03:06:29< _8680_> GUI3?
20130323 03:06:42< _Coffee> from what I remeber the other day
20130323 03:06:43< shadowm> GUI3 is a ridiculous joke. It's not real.
20130323 03:06:49< shadowm> GUI2 is the real deal.
20130323 03:07:00< shadowm> But no, I am talking of a completely different principle.
20130323 03:07:10< shadowm> User experience as opposed to GUI implementation details.
20130323 03:07:27< shadowm> Back in the day when I started using computers, everyone was expected to configure their applications after installing.
20130323 03:07:32< _Coffee> don't they overlap a bit
20130323 03:07:43< shadowm> Nowadays, everyone is expected to get sensible defaults and stick to them.
20130323 03:08:52< shadowm> And if the defaults may not be sensible enough, there should be hints pointing the user in the right direction regarding things that they would be most likely to want to tweak according to their own preferences.
20130323 03:09:17< _Coffee> you could make the slider visible on the screen as a slider in the GUI
20130323 03:09:31< shadowm> But that's what's already done!
20130323 03:09:38< _Coffee> wasn't this kind of thing supposed to be possible with the theme changes?
20130323 03:09:46< shadowm> Or you mean the _in-game_ GUI?
20130323 03:09:47< _Coffee> that no one uses :P
20130323 03:10:10< _Coffee> yeah, like next to village count or something
20130323 03:10:20< shadowm> The in-game GUI themes engine is extremely inflexible and uses only a few GUI1 widgets combined with a lot of custom code.
20130323 03:10:31< _Coffee> correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that when the theme engine went in you could change things
20130323 03:11:00< shadowm> You can, within certain limits.
20130323 03:11:20< shadowm> Not every conceivable widget (already implemented or otherwise) can be used with the theme engine at the moment.
20130323 03:11:25< _Coffee> would be fun to be able to switch between the pre wesnoth 1.0 units and terrain for a "classic look" for a change and then back
20130323 03:11:42< shadowm> Also, there isn't a lot of room for adding controls either.
20130323 03:11:54< _Coffee> although I am not volunteering to do any of the leg work :P
20130323 03:12:01< shadowm> The in-game GUI is pretty cramped as it is right now on 800x480 - 1024x768.
20130323 03:12:15< _Coffee> yes
20130323 03:12:31< _Coffee> the interline separation default is too big IMO
20130323 03:12:39< _Coffee> for messages and things
20130323 03:12:49< shadowm> Hm, no.
20130323 03:12:53< shadowm> I am not talking about that.
20130323 03:13:03< _8680_> Maybe we could have a poll in the forums, "Did you adjust your Preferences within a few weeks of starting to play Wesnoth?".
20130323 03:13:07< shadowm> I am talking about the in-game GUI that's themeable and uses the themes engine.
20130323 03:13:14< _Coffee> it can easily be changed with WML, so it is not a problem
20130323 03:13:18< shadowm> You know, the thing with the menubar and sidebar.
20130323 03:13:36< shadowm> As for line spacing for in-game messages, I think it's actually good enough.
20130323 03:13:42< _Coffee> oh
20130323 03:14:07< shadowm> The text is readable on both resolutions I use (1280x800 on my laptop, 1920x1080 on my desktop).
20130323 03:14:43< shadowm> It's also readable for non-Latin script languages as far as we know, since nobody has complained.
20130323 03:15:33< shadowm> And no, that shouldn't be a thing that can be configured by the user with the built-in options... although I would certainly not be opposed to introducing CSS to Wesnoth at some point.
20130323 03:15:51< shadowm> However, that would have to be long after GUI2 is completed, and GUI2 has been a work in progress since early 2008.
20130323 03:16:41< _Coffee> how can you test GUI2?
20130323 03:16:54< shadowm> You are already doing it.
20130323 03:17:02< shadowm> It is everywhere save for a few exceptions
20130323 03:17:13< _Coffee> oh, ok
20130323 03:18:50< shadowm> The exceptions are the storyscreens, the Preferences dialog, the Load Game dialog (without --new-widgets), the Add-ons Manager (without --new-widgets), the Rename Unit dialog (because of an oversight of mine I think, not sure), the default lobby (the one that doesn't crash all the time), and the Credits screen.
20130323 03:18:55< shadowm> At least.
20130323 03:19:18< _Coffee> I almost forgot the new lobby
20130323 03:19:18< shadowm> Also the Hotkey Preferences dialog, and the in-game GUI themes engine (including the editor).
20130323 03:19:41< shadowm> Also the Recruit, Recall, and Advance Unit dialogs.
20130323 03:19:45< shadowm> And the Help system.
20130323 03:20:03< shadowm> Also the Create Unit (debug) dialog (wihtout --new-widgets).
20130323 03:20:49< _Coffee> out of interest what would it take to get the recruit/recall dialog over to GUI2
20130323 03:21:13< _Coffee> to allow that extra recruit/recall switch box that I wanted to put a patch in for some long time ago?
20130323 03:22:51< shadowm> I forgot the Unit List dialog, and the Statistics dialog above.
20130323 03:23:01< shadowm> _Coffee: It would first take some semblance of genericity for the sidebar unit report display.
20130323 03:23:29< shadowm> That would need to be ported to GUI2 first. If you take a look at the GUI1 thing, you'll notice the report display is partially handled by a custom composite widget.
20130323 03:23:36< _Coffee> need a hand with that?
20130323 03:23:40< shadowm> (Which also happens to be buggy.)
20130323 03:24:07< shadowm> _Coffee: Oh yeah, we'd also need for mordante to figure out the GUI2 listboxes nonsense.
20130323 03:24:16< shadowm> The GUI2 listboxes design is still in flux for some reason.
20130323 03:24:30< shadowm> The default implementation is crashy and inflexible.
20130323 03:24:54< shadowm> That's some essential infrastructure missing for a GUI2 Recruit or Recall dialog.
20130323 03:25:03< _Coffee> ok
20130323 03:31:59< _8680_> Is it possible to change an add-on's passphrase?
20130323 03:34:39< _Coffee> _8680_: You didn't make it offensive and type it in the wrong window did you? (don't worry happens to me a llthe time) :P
20130323 03:34:47< _8680_> No.
20130323 03:35:13 * _Coffee was joking BTW
20130323 03:35:40< _8680_> Unless you consider very long strings of pseudorandom ASCII printable characters offensive.
20130323 03:36:13< _8680_> I still didn't type it in the wrong window though.
20130323 03:36:18< _8680_> I did something worse.
20130323 03:36:18< shadowm> _8680_: It is possible if you use wesnoth_addon_manager from data/tools
20130323 03:36:51< _8680_> I'll try that, then.
20130323 03:37:12< shadowm> Something like wesnoth_addon_manager -p 1.10.x --change-passphrase=Whatever_Addon_Id oldpassphrase new passphrase
20130323 03:40:23< _8680_> Does the add-on need to be in ~add-ons for this to work?
20130323 03:48:47< shadowm> No.
20130323 03:48:57< shadowm> In theory.
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20130323 04:08:03< _8680_> That seems to have worked. Thanks.
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20130323 12:50:34< _Coffee> hi bumbadadabum
20130323 12:50:44< bumbadadabum> Hi _Coffee
20130323 12:50:56< _Coffee> those changes you made should have made it in for 1.11.2
20130323 12:51:02< bumbadadabum> Great
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20130323 12:52:32< _Coffee> it will be good to get that thread going to find out more of the sound times that are out
20130323 12:53:26< _Coffee> and the animation offsets
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20130323 12:58:07< mordante> servus
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20130323 13:01:34< vultraz> hey mordante 
20130323 13:01:46< _Coffee> hi
20130323 13:01:51< _Coffee> servus?
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20130323 13:02:51< _Coffee> what language is this?
20130323 13:02:58< _Coffee> google translate says it is hello
20130323 13:03:06< bumbadadabum> latin
20130323 13:03:09< bumbadadabum> it means "slave"
20130323 13:03:14< _Coffee> lol
20130323 13:03:29< _Coffee> I don't think wesnoth devs are slaves
20130323 13:03:34< _Coffee> but I could be wrong
20130323 13:03:39< _Coffee> I am only new here :P
20130323 13:06:34< mordante> hi vultraz 
20130323 13:06:41< mordante> _Coffee, it's German
20130323 13:07:07< _Coffee> mordante: oh, good -- I was worried there what it might mean otherwise down the track ;)
20130323 13:08:22< _Coffee> when I updated recently I got an update to cmake
20130323 13:08:56< _Coffee> does this mean that Ivanoviccan change the title here soon?
20130323 13:09:45< vultraz> mordante: just wondering, has the listbox code changed any recently? Wondering if the remove row function is stable yet
20130323 13:13:48< mordante> _Coffee, yes I told him on the 21st "22:40 <mordante> Ivanovic, ^ should fix the issue"
20130323 13:14:45< mordante> vultraz, not much changes recently, but I slowly get up to speed developing again
20130323 13:15:10< _Coffee> mordante: thanks for the update, I suppose I am just impatient :)
20130323 13:15:10< mordante> the listbox are high on my list, but I really need to have some time to focus on it
20130323 13:15:29< mordante> _Coffee, no problem
20130323 13:17:05< vultraz> Will they be fixed sometime in 1.11?
20130323 13:21:23< mordante> I really hope to manage it before/during the summer
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20130323 13:22:42< vultraz> oh ok, good :)
20130323 13:24:07< trademark_> Hello guys, is there an interest for a WML-parser written in Boost.Spirit with functionalities like validating with a schema,… (Features equivalent to the XML)
20130323 13:24:57< mordante> trademark_, there is already schema support in WML, not used a lot, but the code is there
20130323 13:25:11< trademark_> is it the config class ?
20130323 13:25:11< mordante> what would be the advantage of a rewrite?
20130323 13:26:45< trademark_> in fact, the last year, I barely started to write the campaign server, I didn't found (and we told me) a support for schema. The main use-case was to check that the wml received by the server were syntactically correct (means that they respect a given schema).
20130323 13:27:45< trademark_> if you tell me that this feature is already here, than there is no interest at all to recode it.
20130323 13:28:27< mordante> the code is in serialization/validator.cpp
20130323 13:28:35< mordante> mainly used in the GUI2 code
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20130323 13:31:37< trademark_>  I don't now why I didn't find it the last year, well it's ok
20130323 13:35:31< vultraz> mordante: since you're here, can 1.11.2 be released?
20130323 13:36:07< mordante> vultraz, afaik there are no blockers left
20130323 13:37:30< vultraz> then what are we waiting for? 
20130323 13:38:23< mordante> until Ivanovic has time to release
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20130323 13:38:37< mordante> IIRC he said he would have time next weekend
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20130323 13:39:30< Ivanovic> the release is still far away, got no time this weekend since i am assembling furniture
20130323 13:39:41-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: releasing 1.11.2 "eventually" | 171 bugs, 333 feature requests, 19 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130323 13:40:29< Ivanovic> shadowm: i have not done so for a while because i did not find the time to look at things
20130323 13:40:38< Ivanovic> _Coffee: you can commit anything until i tag
20130323 13:40:48< Ivanovic> no need to ask, you are a full dev
20130323 13:40:52< Ivanovic> this is just a development release
20130323 13:40:54< _Coffee> Ivanovic: thanks
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20130323 18:04:43< irker579> wesnoth: mordante * r56560 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/field.hpp: 
20130323 18:04:43< irker579> wesnoth: Fix a doxygen warning.
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20130323 18:35:14< anonymissimus> is there some project on sourceforge people can/should apply to already; will the one used for the releases be used ?
20130323 18:35:28< anonymissimus> shadowm: you were looking for me ?
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20130323 18:40:43< mordante> I'm off bye
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20130323 18:52:25< irker579> wesnoth: espreon * r56561 /trunk/data/languages/ (vi_VN.cfg vi_VI.cfg): 
20130323 18:52:25< irker579> wesnoth: Corrected the Vietnamese locale code; VI is the code for the US Virgin Islands.
20130323 18:54:45< vultraz> hahaha
20130323 18:54:56< Espreon> What's so funny?
20130323 18:55:36< vultraz> dunno, It just us
20130323 18:55:39< vultraz> is*
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20130323 18:56:28< irker579> wesnoth: espreon * r56562 /branches/1.10/data/languages/ (vi_VN.cfg vi_VI.cfg): 
20130323 18:56:28< irker579> wesnoth: Corrected the Vietnamese locale code; VI is the code for the US Virgin Islands.
20130323 19:06:46< irker579> wesnoth: espreon * r56563 /trunk/ (14 files in 13 dirs): 
20130323 19:06:46< irker579> wesnoth: Updated the Vietnamese translation.
20130323 19:08:18< irker579> wesnoth: espreon * r56564 /branches/1.10/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20130323 19:08:19< irker579> wesnoth: Updated the Vietnamese translation.
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20130323 19:31:27< irker579> wesnoth: shadowmaster * r56565 /trunk/data/ (283 files in 14 dirs): 
20130323 19:31:27< irker579> wesnoth: wesnoth-optipng pass
20130323 19:31:28< irker579> wesnoth: Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20130323 19:31:28< irker579> wesnoth:   Original size: 15583 KiB on 283 files
20130323 19:31:29< irker579> wesnoth:  Optimized size: 11794 KiB
20130323 19:31:29< irker579> wesnoth:    Total saving: 3788 KiB = 24% decrease
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20130323 20:39:46< anonymissimus> the new title-map looks pretty cool if I may say so, reminds me of the opening graphics in commercial games
20130323 20:44:27< zookeeper> you may
20130323 20:44:29 * esr smiles at the irker instance
20130323 20:46:06< esr> zookeeper: Did you restore the Istra to its original shape?  I think absence of that north-south tributary has some continuity implications. 
20130323 20:48:17< zookeeper> esr, i'm not sure what you mean, but the answer is in the current map
20130323 20:48:39< esr> Checking...
20130323 20:49:58< esr> zookeeper: What's the title map's image path?
20130323 20:50:23< zookeeper> core/images/maps/titlescreen.png
20130323 20:50:37< esr> Thanks
20130323 20:52:11< esr> Oh good.  It's there.  In fact the way you shifted it to run north east into the Lintanir Forest is better for my purposes.  Cool./
20130323 20:52:59< esr> Excellent.
20130323 20:53:08< zookeeper> good
20130323 20:53:27< esr> Ah.
20130323 20:53:53< esr> There was a contnuity glitch in LOW that I know the solution of now.
20130323 20:54:27< esr> There's a midium-sized lake off-map near the NE corner.
20130323 20:55:07< esr> Explains an otherwise inconsistent feature of the first LoW map.
20130323 20:55:37< esr> :-)
20130323 20:55:51< esr> You put that tributary in a good place.
20130323 20:56:39 * esr goes to fix the wiki
20130323 20:56:56< zookeeper> well, scenario maps tend to be full of lakes and rivers and forests and mountains which don't show up on the bigmaps, so...
20130323 20:57:34< zookeeper> wouldn't you prefer the wiki to be fixed for 1.12, not near the start of the 1.11 cycle?
20130323 20:58:50< zookeeper> well, regarding some of the bigger changes anyway.
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20130323 21:01:36< esr> The way it's phrased now can fit either the old or new map.  You might want to refresh the LoW map on the Geography page, though.
20130323 21:04:10< esr> Actually the only serious geographic contnuity glitch And the only really serious continuity glitch we have left in mainline is inn "A Princess of Wesnoth". I came up with ways to finesse all the others.
20130323 21:04:49 * shadowm rolls eyes.
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20130323 21:07:09< esr> shadowm: That's why I'm the Lord of Continuity and you're not. :-) *Somebody* has to be twitchy about these things...
20130323 21:08:21< shadowm> More like the Lord of Assumptions.
20130323 21:13:27< esr> shadowm: Fair enough.
20130323 21:14:18< esr> BTW, I ran across a remark somewhere thAt implied travkplacer had pissed you off.  Is it something I can fix?
20130323 21:17:06< shadowm> That doesn't give me a lot of context to work with.
20130323 21:17:13< shadowm> I don't even have a use for trackplacer.
20130323 21:22:38 * zookeeper didn't use trackplacer for the new maps
20130323 21:23:50< zookeeper> in fact, i've never ran trackplacer. i'm not even sure if i've ever seen a screenshot :P
20130323 21:29:31< esr> Unfortunate.  That may make the journey tracks harder to modify in the future.
20130323 21:33:24< zookeeper> well, at least my WML is somewhat simpler than the old, IMO
20130323 21:46:30< esr> Hm, the HttT map WML isn't too bad - I could probably massage that back into form for trackplacer without too much pain if I had to.
20130323 21:47:23< esr> The old WML was mechanically generated.  I tied to make it easy for humans to read but that wan't my top priority.
20130323 21:48:55< zookeeper> yeah, but don't do that unless it's necessary, for example because the dots need to be redone entirely after i've gotten hit by a truck.
20130323 21:49:45< shadowm> esr: Okay, since you are here and trying to be useful perhaps you could take a look at the results of running wmllint on mainline trunk as of late?
20130323 21:50:17< shadowm> There's a flood of crap resulting from wmllint getting confused by some syntax changes in animation WML introduced by boucman and _Coffee.
20130323 21:50:31< esr> shadowm: Uh oh.  How bad is it?
20130323 21:50:46< shadowm> I'm sure you can run make lint on data/tools and see for yourself.
20130323 21:51:29< shadowm> I have linked the output on pastebin here several times but guess what nobody pays attention anymore.
20130323 21:51:42< esr> Urgh.  OK, I guess I'll hsve to fix it.
20130323 21:52:14< shadowm> I don't even want to know what wmlscope thinks about this.
20130323 21:52:30< shadowm> wmlscope can die alone in a hole for all I care.
20130323 21:54:00< anonymissimus> how do people adjust the locations of the journey dots and battle/conversation markers if they don't use trackplacer ?
20130323 21:54:09< anonymissimus> I found that to be a pain
20130323 21:54:19< zookeeper> anonymissimus, i wrote a gimp script for it :P
20130323 21:54:45< anonymissimus> and yes, look after wmllint pls esr :)
20130323 21:56:15< esr> shadowm: wmlscope is what keeps us from shipping releases with missing images.  Don't dismiss it so lightly.
20130323 21:56:24< anonymissimus> zookeeper: how does that work, does it somehow give you the coordinates you've clicked on, write them into a file or the like ?
20130323 21:56:46< shadowm> esr: Yes, I'm sure Ivanovic runs wmlscope before every release. </sarcasm>
20130323 21:57:03< shadowm> People don't even run wmllint before every release, I mean come on.
20130323 21:57:14< shadowm> I was the first guy to find out about this mess.
20130323 21:57:27< shadowm> Isn't that a bad sign for you?
20130323 21:57:40< _Coffee> shadowm: is that something I can help with?
20130323 21:57:43< anonymissimus> if someone runs wmlscope/lint then it usually was shadowm or me I think
20130323 21:57:48< shadowm> I wasn't even specficially running wmllint on mainline.
20130323 21:57:54< _Coffee> the new syntax has square brackets in it
20130323 21:57:56< zookeeper> anonymissimus, basically i just draw paths, then run the script and tell it the distance between each dot in pixels, and it gives me a coordinate list for each path segment, and then i just paste those into place.
20130323 21:57:57< shadowm> I was running it on my own add-on, which obviously depends upon data/core.
20130323 21:57:58< esr> I used to run both before every release when I was more active.  And it's a sign that quality standards are slipping.
20130323 21:58:16< anonymissimus> _Coffee: do you use wmllint for your campaign and such now and then ?
20130323 21:58:23< _Coffee> anonymissimus: no
20130323 21:58:26< shadowm> esr: Quality standards are an illusion created by whoever bothers to uphold any such.
20130323 21:58:30< _Coffee> I found it broken before :P
20130323 21:58:31< anonymissimus> _Coffee: bad
20130323 21:58:39< shadowm> In our case, they are not the release manager's responsibility.
20130323 21:58:40< _Coffee> doesn't work with my campaign
20130323 21:58:47< _Coffee> hasn't done for a while
20130323 21:59:03< _Coffee> because it doesn't handle macros well or translation domains
20130323 21:59:07< shadowm> _Coffee: Well, maybe, you could try running wmllint by yourself for starters.
20130323 21:59:09< anonymissimus> _Coffee: well, for mainline we used to require wmllint working and zero messages
20130323 21:59:09< esr> _Coffee: Which is your campaign?
20130323 21:59:13< zookeeper> anonymissimus, "the distance between each dot in pixels" -> "the distance between each dot in pixels that i want", in case that was unclear.
20130323 21:59:30< shadowm> _Coffee: I don't know what OS you are on, but if you've got make installed on Linux you should be able to switch to data/core and make lint.
20130323 21:59:35< _Coffee> esr: my campaign is called "The Great Quest"
20130323 21:59:38< _Coffee> and is also for 1.11.1
20130323 21:59:48< _Coffee> althought it is a MP campaign
20130323 22:00:05< _Coffee> shadowm: yes, I am on Linux
20130323 22:00:23< shadowm> _Coffee: So do that and work with esr on trying to get wmllint to make sense of that mess.
20130323 22:00:23< bumbadadabum> _Coffee: you made a MP campaign?
20130323 22:00:28< shadowm> Or making sense of wmllint's mess.
20130323 22:00:29< anonymissimus> zookeeper: sounds like a sensible strategy, and one which can be used on windows as well probably
20130323 22:00:35< bumbadadabum> _Coffee: Any major bugs?
20130323 22:00:46< _Coffee> bumbadadabum: many :P
20130323 22:00:47< shadowm> _Coffee: Whichever angle you prefer for looking at it.
20130323 22:00:48< anonymissimus> as I never got trackplacer to work correctly there
20130323 22:01:02< zookeeper> anonymissimus, no kidding, i am on windows :p
20130323 22:01:03< anonymissimus> zookeeper: can you share the script pls
20130323 22:01:03< _Coffee> bumbadadabum: but all required work arounds
20130323 22:01:14< shadowm> _Coffee: Also, if I'm sounding bossy, it is not my intention per se.
20130323 22:01:17< bumbadadabum> ok
20130323 22:01:19< shadowm> I'm no authority here.
20130323 22:01:25< shadowm> I'm just the guy who complains loudly about stuff.
20130323 22:01:28< shadowm> And talks to walls.
20130323 22:01:32< shadowm> As of late.
20130323 22:01:33< zookeeper> anonymissimus, no, it's a hack that only i know how to operate
20130323 22:01:33< _Coffee> shadowm: no. That is good
20130323 22:01:35< bumbadadabum> Literally
20130323 22:01:56< zookeeper> anonymissimus, well, i mean, sure i can but don't come asking me for help in getting it to do what you want :p
20130323 22:01:59< _Coffee> need to know when things don't work
20130323 22:03:45< anonymissimus> _Coffee: IMO, when people change some wml, especially wml rules, they should run these wml* tools now and then and adapt them as needed; a good place to start with that is one's own addons
20130323 22:04:31< _Coffee> anonymissimus: I suppose the tools for translations would be good to get working with multiple domains as well
20130323 22:04:45< anonymissimus> at least if new wml rules break it, make some feature request about it, so it doesn't get forgotten
20130323 22:04:46< _Coffee> although this is a separate issue
20130323 22:04:57< shadowm> _Coffee: What's the matter with the translation tools?
20130323 22:05:22< anonymissimus> if I want to check my addons with trunk wmllint, I get spammed by mainline messages, thats the problem
20130323 22:05:30< _Coffee> shadowm: basically when a macro is run and the translation domain is changed it doesn't keep up with the translations
20130323 22:06:09< _Coffee> I switched between domains a lot to get translations for units and other default things (like "easy","norml","hard")
20130323 22:06:47< shadowm> _Coffee: Could you pastebin some example code?
20130323 22:06:47< _Coffee> shadowm: not sure is this is also wmlint?
20130323 22:07:07< shadowm> wmllint is an external tool.
20130323 22:07:36< shadowm> Are you talking of the game's behavior with regards to textdomain switching, or the translation catalog generation? The latter is wmlxgettext's responsibility.
20130323 22:07:51< shadowm> (The wmlxgettext from utils/, not the one in data/tools which is unmaintained.)
20130323 22:07:52< _Coffee> shadowm: textdomain switching
20130323 22:08:14< _Coffee> I remember that I had to do the po/mo files myself
20130323 22:08:21< _Coffee> instead of using the tool
20130323 22:08:35< shadowm> Let me reprhase my question.
20130323 22:08:58< shadowm> Yes, you are obviously talking about textdomain switching, but are you complaining about the game's behavior in that regard, or the translation catalog generation (wmlxgettext)?
20130323 22:09:38< shadowm> I guess you are talking of "the tool" now, so you probably mean wmlxgettext even though you didn't know about it for some reason? I'm lost now.
20130323 22:09:56< _Coffee> shadowm: yes, I may be confusing the 2 tools
20130323 22:12:20< _Coffee> I'll take a look at wmlint
20130323 22:15:15< _Coffee> oh boy, it says it is converting a bunch of maps :P
20130323 22:16:27< _Coffee> here we go
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20130323 22:16:56< _Coffee> wmllint doesn't take into account text strings and think s the square bracket is a new field
20130323 22:17:07< anonymissimus> those converting something messages can be ignored; they showed up randomly, never found a use for them
20130323 22:17:39< _Coffee> so not entirely my fault ;)
20130323 22:18:01< shadowm> Debeatable.
20130323 22:18:05< shadowm> *Debatable.
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20130323 22:29:32< _Coffee> ok
20130323 22:29:42< _Coffee> I think I can remove the error messages
20130323 22:30:24< shadowm> By remove you mean "make wmllint/wmliterator understand the deal", yes?
20130323 22:31:38< _Coffee> 2 ways of doing it
20130323 22:31:53< _Coffee> one is to put quotes on each unit attack that says it has an error
20130323 22:32:23< _Coffee> other way is to make it so that any square bracket found after an '=' sign is ignored within another scope
20130323 22:32:30< _Coffee> I suspect the latter makes more sense
20130323 22:32:44< shadowm> Yes.
20130323 22:32:51< _Coffee> because a message, say with a square bracket in it might cause the same problem
20130323 22:33:27< _8680_> Shouldn't messages be quoted anyway?
20130323 22:33:41< _8680_> Or does _ work with unquoted strings?
20130323 22:33:54< shadowm> You must quote them.
20130323 22:34:22< _Coffee> might be worth testing
20130323 22:34:23< shadowm> I think things are handled differently in [event] context in general, but a more valid analogue would be [set_variable] name=foo[$k].bar
20130323 22:35:39< _Coffee> esr: is there anything I should know before looking at changing any wmllint code?
20130323 22:37:17< _Coffee> or is the quoting the way to go?
20130323 22:37:23< esr> _Coffee: There's probably a loy you should know, but it's not organized inm a way that I can brain-dump on you.
20130323 22:38:00< esr> _Coffee: I'll try to answer questions usefully.
20130323 22:38:53< shadowm> _Coffee: No, quoting shouldn't be necessary for things the game can handle just fine.
20130323 22:38:58< _Coffee> esr: basically the problem is that a line might not read http://pastebin.com/GCff6SxX
20130323 22:40:04< _Coffee> and it picks up the middle lot as a new scope
20130323 22:41:02< _Coffee> esr: so we want to remove the reference to all square brackets after a '=' sign?
20130323 22:41:45< _Coffee> in wmlinterator.py is this around line 393 I should be looking?
20130323 22:42:58< _Coffee> and line 314
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20130323 22:46:45< esr> _Coffee: I see the problem.
20130323 22:47:13< esr> It does look like it's wmliterator that needs fixing.
20130323 22:47:17< esr> Looking...
20130323 22:47:59 * _Coffee deserves a round of beer -- pity it is early in the morning
20130323 22:48:13< shadowm> _Coffee: Where do you live, exactly?
20130323 22:48:36< _Coffee> I'm in Adelaide, Australia
20130323 22:49:03< _Coffee> but I get up early for work, so it is not a big deal
20130323 22:49:24< shadowm> Hm, okay.
20130323 22:49:31< shadowm> Out of curositiy, are you a native English speaker?
20130323 22:49:37< _Coffee> you're in chile I think
20130323 22:49:50< shadowm> Er, curiosity.
20130323 22:49:57< _Coffee> shadowm: um yes (you can tell from the frequently mispelled workds that) :P
20130323 22:50:11< _Coffee> non-native guys put more effort into it
20130323 22:50:17< shadowm> No, I can't really tell. I find your syntax to be quite sloppy at times (no offense).
20130323 22:50:29< esr> That's his point.
20130323 22:50:54< shadowm> I know several native speakers and their syntax quality varies a lot.
20130323 22:51:09< shadowm> It's not always easy to tell them apart from ESL speakers.
20130323 22:51:23< shadowm> Or... just... young people in general.
20130323 22:51:28< anonymissimus> there are also some non-natives with poor syntax xD
20130323 22:51:44< _8680_> I'm native, and I pride myself on the quality of my English.
20130323 22:51:46< shadowm> anonymissimus: Exactly.
20130323 22:52:09< _8680_> (Not that it's always good. Only mostly.)
20130323 22:52:33< _Coffee> English language is also constantly changing in subtle ways
20130323 22:52:33< shadowm> _8680_: Well, so far you have done a good job reviewing vultraz's revisions.
20130323 22:52:44< _8680_> shadowm: Thanks.
20130323 22:52:51< bumbadadabum> I like being a non-native
20130323 22:52:54< esr> I, too, am more careful than is normal in native speakers.  Though bedeviled by typos.
20130323 22:53:00< shadowm> _Coffee: So does Spanish.
20130323 22:53:10< shadowm> I'm completely out of touch with the evolution of my own native language.
20130323 22:53:25< shadowm> Not to mention this particular regional variant.
20130323 22:53:35< lipkab> bumbadadabum: We're all natives in our own ways :P
20130323 22:53:43< bumbadadabum> lipkab: yup
20130323 22:54:09< bumbadadabum> I like being able to blame my Dutchness for spelling mistakes
20130323 22:54:25< shadowm> Anyway, I tend to make more mistakes when under the effects of sleep deprivation.
20130323 22:54:26< esr> _Coffee: I thin the problem with [ in fiilenames might be fixable by teaking the tagPattern regexp.
20130323 22:55:04< _Coffee> esr: oh, the square rbackets are not in the filenames
20130323 22:55:05< esr> Basically, if you (My typos bedevil me again.)
20130323 22:55:06< _8680_> shadowm: Don't we all.
20130323 22:55:18< _Coffee> esr: they get expanded to several lines
20130323 22:55:42< _Coffee> esr: so you can put a series of animation files that are sequential in one expression
20130323 22:56:02< esr> In this: image=units/goblins/impaler-attack-[se-1,s,se-1].png:[50,150,50]
20130323 22:56:20< esr> Which set of brackets is the problem?
20130323 22:56:53< _Coffee> this epxands to "image=gobos/impaler-attack-se-1.png:50,gobos/impaler-attack-s.png:50,gobos/impaler-attack-se-1.png:50"
20130323 22:57:34< _Coffee> but only in-game
20130323 22:58:20< _Coffee> problem is that it is looking for a closing tag for [/se-1,s,se-1] and [/50,150,50]
20130323 22:58:30< _Coffee> sorry, about the choice of example
20130323 22:58:39< esr> Got it.
20130323 22:59:02< esr> I'm thinking that we could do one iof two things here:
20130323 22:59:24< lipkab> @everyone on Debian: What's the current xorg version in Debian stable?
20130323 23:00:12< esr> 1) Tweak the regexp fot tagPattern so that punctuation other than ] before [ prevents it from being seen by wmliterator as a tag open
20130323 23:01:00< esr> 2) change the animation wildcarding syntax.  Reusing [ ] was not a good idea.
20130323 23:01:10< esr> Now must go to dinner.
20130323 23:01:18< zookeeper> why is wmllint even trying to match tags inside quoted strings?
20130323 23:01:20< _Coffee> esr: ok
20130323 23:01:42< _Coffee> zookeeper: well, it turns out they are not all in quoted strings
20130323 23:01:44< esr> Oh, that's possible too.
20130323 23:02:06< zookeeper> well, if quoting all of them fixes the problem, i'd suggest that
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20130323 23:02:23< esr> Why don't we just quote everything we don't want wmliterator to parse?
20130323 23:02:36< esr> ^ I see zookeeper agrees.
20130323 23:03:09< zookeeper> although frankly if there are cases which aren't quoted, i'd have expected wesnoth itself to choke on them
20130323 23:03:09< shadowm> Come on.
20130323 23:03:21< shadowm> Wesnoth is far smarter than wmliterator, that's the issue.
20130323 23:03:45< shadowm> lipkab: See packages.debian.org/squeeze/xserver-xorg-core or so.
20130323 23:04:29< shadowm> It's not WML or Wesnoth that need to be dumbed down, it's wmliterator that needs to be smarter.
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20130323 23:05:28< shadowm> It's generally agreed that using quotes where they are not needed by Wesnoth's WML parser tends to lead to quote accidents.
20130323 23:05:31< _Coffee> yes, and it is a lot of work :P
20130323 23:05:45< shadowm> And by quote accidents I mean Wesnoth's dumb side showing in plain sight.
20130323 23:05:57< shadowm> You know, the stuff that happens when you have an "unterminated quote" or such.
20130323 23:08:16< shadowm> esr: Regarding (2), if you mean that it wasn't a good idea just because of this particular case then perhaps you need to use WML/vconfig arrays more often.
20130323 23:09:16< _Coffee> the quare bracket expansion can be used in terrainWML as well
20130323 23:09:25< _Coffee> as it is very similar syntax
20130323 23:09:33< _Coffee> *square
20130323 23:09:40< shadowm> _Coffee: I assumed that was your doing as well.
20130323 23:09:46< _Coffee> yes
20130323 23:09:52< shadowm> I assume you mean the [terrain_graphics] tag, by the way.
20130323 23:10:06< shadowm> TerrainWML is what we call [terrain_type].
20130323 23:10:16< _Coffee> it simplifiedthe builder.cfg file into 1 or 2 lines
20130323 23:10:25< _Coffee> when before it was doing recursive macro expansions
20130323 23:11:11< shadowm> Oh. That could be then why my campaign's preprocessor test runs so much faster on trunk than on 1.10.
20130323 23:11:37< shadowm> I assumed it was because of mordante's tokenizer optimizations, but they are probably irrelevant for my machine.
20130323 23:11:47< _Coffee> could be both
20130323 23:11:52< _Coffee> this was only a minor improvement
20130323 23:11:58< shadowm> And by irrelevant I mean negligible.
20130323 23:12:06< _Coffee> the main builder stuff is still massive
20130323 23:12:32< shadowm> Yes, I have seen how it goes, especially when I've needed to pass --log-debug=all for whatever reason.
20130323 23:12:36< _Coffee> the unitWML for all the units has gone down in size by over 400kb
20130323 23:12:52< _Coffee> which must speeds things up too
20130323 23:13:04< _Coffee> that's a lot of text gone
20130323 23:13:18< shadowm> The parser is generally fast enough, it's the preprocessor that's slower.
20130323 23:13:30< shadowm> Mostly because of the big terrain-graphics block.
20130323 23:18:00< _Coffee> I think I'm going to need some breakfast before tackling this python stuff
20130323 23:19:07< _Coffee> In case anyone is wondering there was a thread on simplifying animation WML syntax on the forums
20130323 23:19:39< _Coffee> the square brackets turned out to be the best I think because they can be reapplied to terrainWML and no fillename for an animation can contain a '[' in it
20130323 23:19:48< _Coffee> filesystems won't allow it
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20130323 23:20:05< _Coffee> the square brackets were also applied to sound lists
20130323 23:20:20< shadowm> lipkab: http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/xserver-xorg-core shows that it's 1.7.7.
20130323 23:20:20< lipkab> shadowm: Thanks.
20130323 23:20:37< lipkab> Thanksthanks.
20130323 23:20:59< shadowm> _Coffee: You know, people like esr are chronically lazy and would rather have a link for their own convenience.
20130323 23:21:16< shadowm> Especially since some of them cannot handle forum boards at all for some weird reason.
20130323 23:21:31< shadowm> The link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=38198
20130323 23:22:29< shadowm> _Coffee: Also, you are wrong about [] on file names.
20130323 23:22:31< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:/tmp$ touch '[foo]'
20130323 23:22:31< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:/tmp$ ls -l '[foo]'
20130323 23:22:31< shadowm> -rw-r--r-- 1 shadowm shadowm 0 Mar 23 19:22 [foo]
20130323 23:23:04< shadowm> Maybe you are thinking of some specific filesystem or operating system. This is Ext4 on Linux.
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20130323 23:23:49< shadowm> But just to make sure, I just successfully created a file named [foo].txt on an NTFS filesystem on Windows XP SP3.
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20130323 23:25:43< shadowm> 23-03-2013  18:23                 0 _FOO_~1.TXT  [foo].txt
20130323 23:26:20< shadowm> So it is the FAT family that doesn't support brackets, as evidenced by the fact that dir /x shows that Windows had to mangle the filename for the 8.3 field.
20130323 23:26:37< anonymissimus> "this epxands to "image=gobos/impaler-attack-se-1.png:50,gobos/impaler-attack-s.png:50,gobos/impaler-attack-se-1.png:50"" I assume this is a big problem for wmlscope as well then, since it doesn't know this rule and will report unresolved images
20130323 23:26:50< shadowm> *FAT family without extended filenames support
20130323 23:27:44 * anonymissimus should have glacved over that thread and brought up the issue before the patch was appllied
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20130323 23:28:31< shadowm> wmlscope doesn't like my campaign so I don't like it either.
20130323 23:28:53< shadowm> Hence my previous "it can die alone in a hole" statement.
20130323 23:28:56< anonymissimus> how do you ensure all your images are resolved ?
20130323 23:29:05< shadowm> By not bothering at all.
20130323 23:29:10< anonymissimus> bad
20130323 23:29:15< shadowm> I used a one-liner to check one specific case yesterday.
20130323 23:29:45< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/projects/After_the_Storm$ for f in units/humans/Aragwaith_*.cfg; do echo "Checking $f..."; perl -ne '$re = qr!(units[^"]+\.png)!; @fns = (); if(/{DEFENSE([^}])+}/) { @fns = map { $_ =~ $re } split /\s/,$1 } else { (@fns) = ($_ =~ $re) }; @fns or next; for $fn (@fns) { -f "./images/$fn" or print "$fn does not exist\n" }' < $f ; done
20130323 23:30:08< shadowm> That's my gift to the Perl haters community.
20130323 23:30:18< shadowm> May the rejoice with it.
20130323 23:30:21< shadowm> *they
20130323 23:30:55< anonymissimus> wmlscope can also check whether all existing images are actually used
20130323 23:31:00< shadowm> The rest is just plain old playtesting.
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20130323 23:31:06< shadowm> I do a lot of playtesting.
20130323 23:31:12< shadowm> vultraz does a lot of playtesting.
20130323 23:31:45< shadowm> And I test every single change I do instead of relying on dumb automatic tools to do the job for me (and fail about 96% of the time).
20130323 23:32:56< shadowm> I once tried to make wmlscope work with AtS and ended up smashing a chair against my wall.
20130323 23:33:32< shadowm> A rather expensive (albeit imaginary) chair.
20130323 23:33:59< shadowm> wmllint is frustrating to get working, but wmlscope takes the cake.
20130323 23:34:32< shadowm> I still have a stashed patch appropriately saved under the name "wmlscope-comp-shit"
20130323 23:35:50< shadowm> I've been tempted to rework that to run the preprocessor on the campaign first and then feed the results to wmlscope instead.
20130323 23:36:22< shadowm> But I have far more important and evident things to address first.
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 24 00:00:07 2013