--- Log opened Mon Apr 01 00:00:28 2013
20130401 00:02:13< AI0867> yeah, I don't think I've ever seen that code
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20130401 01:43:38< Gambit> Github has written me back.
20130401 01:43:44< Gambit> I hope we can put this issue of repository size to bed now.
20130401 01:43:53< Gambit> They are enthusiastic about having us.
20130401 01:44:23< Gambit> Their response is posted to the Moderator's Forum.
20130401 01:46:39< Sirp> Gambit: I didn't even know you wrote to them again
20130401 01:46:54< Gambit> Sirp: Some felt that I misrepresented the size of our repository.
20130401 01:49:09< Sirp> ahh, I see.
20130401 01:49:26< Ivanovic> Gambit: please also send a short mail to the ML since not everyone follows the boards too closely!
20130401 01:50:18< shadowm> I am writing my opinion on this whole business atm, for sending to the ML later.
20130401 01:50:49< shadowm> mordante: Oh look, I think I just poked fun at my own code. I advise you try doing the same with your own.
20130401 01:51:04< shadowm> Where by "just" I mean about two hours ago.
20130401 01:51:41< Sirp> I think that the most important thing is that our developers are made happy and able to work productively. Some people might not care much about sf vs github, which is fair, but it's clear that some developers care very much.
20130401 01:53:17< Gambit> Mailing list message sent (hopefully)
20130401 01:54:04< shadowm> Yes, I see it.
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20130401 02:47:30< shadowm> Sent my email.
20130401 02:51:12< nurupo> oh, i see you have an irc lobby channel, how nice :)
20130401 02:53:26< nurupo> i'm writing a lobby standalone application for a lost-source, abandoned-by-author, fixed-by-disassembling videogame and plan on using irc for lobby too
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20130401 03:15:37< _Coffee> if there is a "1.9 dev feature" should that just be a regular feature now in the wiki?
20130401 03:18:10< shadowm> Depends, someone might have added it as 1.9 by mistake.
20130401 03:18:39< _Coffee> shadowm: well, if it is definitely for 1.9 and just not updated
20130401 03:18:51< shadowm> Then yes.
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20130401 04:30:00< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-66-gbd718b0 / src/editor/toolkit/editor_toolkit.cpp src/editor/toolkit/editor_toolkit.hpp: Removed obsolete redraw handler.
20130401 04:30:01< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-67-g9cf3f41 / data/themes/editor.cfg: Enabled all new editor buttons.
20130401 04:30:02< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-68-ga759792 / src/display.cpp src/display.hpp: Methods for getting the zoom state.
20130401 04:30:05< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-69-g2232f73 / src/editor/editor_controller.cpp src/hotkeys.cpp src/hotkeys.hpp: Enabled state management for all editor buttons.
20130401 04:30:20< fabi> shadowm: ^
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20130401 05:38:08< shadowm> fabi: I see you pointing at those commits, but I'm not sure what you need me for?
20130401 05:38:27< fabi> shadowm: Have a look and enjoy please.
20130401 05:38:30< shadowm> The fact that irker only shows the summary line and those summaries don't ring any bells for me makes it worse.
20130401 05:38:35< shadowm> Okay.
20130401 05:39:51< fabi> shadowm: Watch especially at the state of the sidebar buttons (still not the brush buttons). Zooming and grid toggling for example.
20130401 05:39:57< fabi> redo and undo button states.
20130401 05:40:50< fabi> shadowm: There is a double click sound in the file menu. But only in the file menu.
20130401 05:41:45< shadowm> Uh.
20130401 05:42:26< shadowm> I get a missing image error when moving my mouse over the default zoom button when it's selected.
20130401 05:42:46< shadowm> Or any other toggleable tool button.
20130401 05:42:54< shadowm> Oh right, this was an art thing you and vultraz are handling IIRC.
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20130401 05:43:40< vultraz> Yes, I've been busy and haven't had time to make new toolkit buttons or round radio buttons yet
20130401 05:44:02< shadowm> fabi: The improvement is that we don't get that ugly red frame anymore and have real pressed-down toggle buttons instead, right?
20130401 05:44:39< shadowm> Also, I only hear one click sound for the file menu, or any other menu for that matter.
20130401 05:44:44< fabi> shadowm: Yes. And you have those toggle buttons having a state. The redo/undo buttons are greyed out if the action is not possible.
20130401 05:44:47< shadowm> Unless I actually go and click on it twice, of course.
20130401 05:45:02< fabi> same for zooming
20130401 05:45:14< fabi> zoom to the max and you get them greyed
20130401 05:45:44< shadowm> That's a nice improvement.
20130401 05:45:49< fabi> the default zoom button is pressed when you are in default zoom
20130401 05:46:01< shadowm> The problem is that the art for the non-greyed out state is already too low on saturation to easily see the difference.
20130401 05:46:21< fabi> just zoom around with the keyboard and watch it snap in when you hit the default zoom.
20130401 05:46:39< vultraz> I'm planning on making the toolkit buttons like the group buttons, as per fabi's suggestion
20130401 05:46:41< vultraz> look like*
20130401 05:46:46< shadowm> fabi: Yeah, that's the first thing I tested, in fact.
20130401 05:47:17< shadowm> vultraz: That might be nice, but it might be a good idea to toss around ideas (er) with the art team IM.
20130401 05:47:21< shadowm> IMO.
20130401 05:47:35< fabi> shadowm: Note that this is an automatism. I extended the state system of our hotkey handle system.
20130401 05:47:49< shadowm> See what e.g. Jetrel has to say on the matter since he understands a lot of art things with regards to UI which I don't necessarily understand yet.
20130401 05:47:58< vultraz> hm...ok
20130401 05:48:35< fabi> shadowm: Also note that the disabled art is missing most of the times thus what you see is the result of an applied image converting function.
20130401 05:48:56< shadowm> Oh.
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20130401 06:58:08< shadowm> Future me banned me from the forums: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38611
20130401 06:58:36< shadowm> This is absolutely ridiculous. I only abused my time-traveling powers to restore three accounts lost after a database crash.
20130401 06:58:46< shadowm> Or six of them? It was on two occasions.
20130401 07:00:07< ancestral> If there's a day to be absent from the Internet, it might as well be today
20130401 07:00:08< shadowm> He's also a goddamn hypocrite.
20130401 07:00:34< shadowm> Oh wait.
20130401 07:00:53< shadowm> Is this what he referred to when he said "calling me names"?
20130401 07:00:58< shadowm> Or will say I guess?
20130401 07:01:05< shadowm> My head, it hurts.
20130401 07:01:32< ancestral> shadowm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKqd27h7KjM
20130401 07:02:33< ancestral> shadowm: Awesome. Your future post will always be at the bottom
20130401 07:02:44< ancestral> Until September 11th
20130401 07:03:14< shadowm> HE IS ABUSING HIS TIME-TRAVELING POWERS.
20130401 07:03:20< shadowm> Of course.
20130401 07:08:45< vultraz> shadowm: get someone to create a ban that will ban future shadowm, so he cannot get on the forums to ban present shadowm 
20130401 07:09:41< shadowm> I cannot ban future me.
20130401 07:09:49< shadowm> That'd cause a time paradox and doom us all.
20130401 07:10:21< shadowm> Our only option for now is to wait for future me to calm down.
20130401 07:10:56< shadowm> Or give him a good reason to do so, maybe.
20130401 07:11:10< shadowm> I am not really contributing much on that front because I hate every single iteration of me in the timeline. :/
20130401 07:12:38< ancestral> Fork shadowm!
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--- Log opened Mon Apr 01 07:57:28 2013
--- Log opened Mon Apr 01 08:02:36 2013
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20130401 08:02:45-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: Developers, please vote: http://r.wesnoth.org/t38590 | 172 bugs, 332 feature requests, 20 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130401 08:02:45-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@asteria.debian.or.at] [Sun Mar 31 23:05:35 2013]
20130401 08:02:45[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20130401 08:02:45[ [Relic]        ] [ enchilado] [ knotwork       ] [ skyfaller     ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ _8680_         ] [ Espreon  ] [ lobby          ] [ Smar          ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ _Coffee        ] [ esr      ] [ loonycyborg    ] [ Soundlust     ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ AI0867         ] [ ettin    ] [ LordNasty      ] [ timotei       ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ Anakonda       ] [ exciton  ] [ melinath       ] [ ToBeFree      ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ ancestral      ] [ fabi     ] [ molgrum        ] [ Upth          ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ apoi           ] [ freim    ] [ naeg           ] [ Upthorn       ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ balrog         ] [ Gallaecio] [ noy            ] [ vultraz       ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ bderooms       ] [ happygrue] [ nurupo         ] [ vultraz_laptop] 
20130401 08:02:45[ Blueblaze      ] [ Ingmar   ] [ rei4dan        ] [ wesbot        ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ cjhopman_      ] [ irker173 ] [ Rhonda         ] [ witness       ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ crimson_penguin] [ isaac    ] [ shadowm        ] [ {V}           ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ Dragos         ] [ Ivanovic ] [ shadowm_desktop] 
20130401 08:02:45[ ejls           ] [ iwaim    ] [ shikadibot     ] 
20130401 08:02:45[ elias          ] [ janebot  ] [ Sirp           ] 
20130401 08:02:45-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 57 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 57 normal]
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20130401 08:03:12-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20130401 08:04:05< shadowm> If you see errors that aren't "too many connections", tell me ASAP.
20130401 08:04:25-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 108 secs
20130401 08:05:31< _Coffee> *sniff, I was kind of hoping it'd come up like: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.metlin.org/content/blog/omgponies.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.linux.com/feature/119488&h=693&w=1255&sz=501&tbnid=nMz5Iv73GNSCzM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=147&prev=/search%3Fq%3Domg%2Bponies%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=omg+ponies&usg=__PanL78IWCrLudHVbWcCZGz9ECh0=&docid=A4y6IHP40O0buM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NSNZUfWCOKHZigfIvYDADw&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAg&
20130401 08:05:33< _Coffee> dur=254
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20130401 08:06:56< shadowm> Okay, database looks good.
20130401 08:07:04< shadowm> You shouldn't be seeing any errors.
20130401 08:07:12< _Coffee> no errors here
20130401 08:07:36< _Coffee> and snappy connection
20130401 08:08:16< shadowm> My connection is as shitty as always.
20130401 08:08:37< shadowm> That's what you get for using 3.5G mobile broadband in the middle of nowhere.
20130401 08:09:38< _Coffee> You don't live around this guy by any chance :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZFp8ldcTx4
20130401 08:10:15< ancestral> Or these folks: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russian-Family-Was-Cut-Off-From-Human-Contact-Unaware-of-World-War-II-188843001.html
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20130401 09:13:08< shadowm> mordante: I am sure you are having fun reading the forums right now.
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20130401 09:13:39< shadowm> *thumbs up*
20130401 09:15:19< shadowm> Also, it's funny you attribute things to the forum medium in particular. I thought all this spiral of offensive nonsense started on IRC of all places.
20130401 09:16:09< shadowm> And no, please do not reply to that. I am now ignoring you for at least 10 days.
20130401 09:16:18< shadowm> That means I won't get any of our messages.
20130401 09:18:08< shadowm> *your
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20130401 09:44:54< zookeeper> "adding contributor signatories for NetBeans and accentuating many names"
20130401 09:45:01< zookeeper> you can't come up with this stuff O.o
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20130401 09:57:09< shadowm> Oh my god you are telling me he's at it again.
20130401 09:57:42< shadowm> Okay, his question now doesn't count as metathreading so much as nonsense.
20130401 09:58:12< shadowm> "How to lock this topic and delete it later?" <- I already tried explaining to him that locked topics don't get deleted.
20130401 09:59:05< shadowm> But no, I don't think his grasp of English is good enough to understand more than 5% of what I told him. Even though I tried making my statements as simple and plain as possible.
20130401 09:59:51< zookeeper> i really wonder what kind of autotranslator he's gotta be using for words like "NetBeans" to crop up there
20130401 10:00:44< shadowm> From the PM I first got from him it sounds like a combination of a translator and speech recognition software.
20130401 10:01:23< shadowm> So... I hope my post here suits his language skills better: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=550824#p550824
20130401 10:02:48< zookeeper> maybe
20130401 10:07:14< shadowm> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=550826#p550826 <- Does anyone realize how hard it is for me to post in the forums using SQL while I am banned?
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20130401 10:22:11< mordante> servus
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20130401 10:34:25< mordante> shadowm, I don't care whether or not you poke fun at your own code, I'm tired of you poking fun at me or things that can be insinuated to be me, and poking fun at other developers
20130401 10:37:10< mordante> shadowm, no I don't have fun reading the forums, I just reconfirms why I should avoid them
20130401 10:39:29< mordante> "<shadowm> Also, it's funny you attribute things to the forum medium in particular. I thought all this spiral of offensive nonsense started on IRC of all places." I really don't understand why you bring IRC in it, I objected against the way you made an example of Sapient and then when he complained found it proper to turn his complain into a joke
20130401 10:40:28< mordante> s/example of Sapient/example of Sapient on the forum/
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20130401 12:18:41< shadowm> Ivanovic, Espreon: Does the personal data (email) and username of this guy ring any bells for you? http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=133945
20130401 12:18:58< shadowm> Wait, Espreon cannot see emails, only Ivanovic can.
20130401 12:19:31< shadowm> I want to know if he's involved in some East Asian translation or not.
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20130401 12:30:23< Ivanovic> shadowm: i don't know of him as translation maintainer, no idea though if he might be a "normal" translator
20130401 12:30:38< Ivanovic> but if he is not listed in the credits i would assume "no"
20130401 12:31:04< shadowm> Couldn't find him.
20130401 12:31:27< shadowm> The Korean translation team is listed as having a single member who is definitely nothim.
20130401 12:31:31< shadowm> ot him
20130401 12:31:35< shadowm> fuck I can't type.
20130401 12:32:29< zookeeper> http://gbatemp.net/threads/the-alphabet-game.152674/page-271 :D
20130401 12:32:37< zookeeper> looks like he's been elsewhere too
20130401 12:33:45< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: lol
20130401 12:34:54< shadowm> Oh what.
20130401 12:35:18< bumbadadabum> I don't even know what that guy's point is
20130401 12:35:53< shadowm> He told me something about swear words via PM which I didn't understand.
20130401 12:36:13< shadowm> "Deleting your locked posts. He gets to be swearing if we lock his topics."
20130401 12:36:35< shadowm> Or vows.
20130401 12:36:40< shadowm> Not sure what kind of swearing he referred to but...
20130401 12:37:59< zookeeper> maybe he really is just a really advanced spambot :]
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20130401 12:49:28< _8680_> Searching in that forum yields more results: <http://gbatemp.net/search/5316380/?q=TaeWong>
20130401 12:51:22< zookeeper> and more generally... http://archive.org/iathreads/forum-display.php?poster=Tae%20wong
20130401 12:52:55< bumbadadabum> omfg
20130401 12:53:36< Ivanovic> shadowm: just ban him and be done
20130401 12:53:47< shadowm> Let's move this discussion to the forums.
20130401 12:53:57< bumbadadabum> shadowm: Offtopic
20130401 12:54:01< bumbadadabum> new thread
20130401 12:54:06< bumbadadabum> "Shall we ban TaeWong?"
20130401 12:54:16< shadowm> Ivanovic: I am not sure I can ban someone for being completely unintelligible. I'll leave that for Gambit to decide.
20130401 12:54:41< Ivanovic> shadowm: you do know that you can, it is easy, just clicking one button...
20130401 12:54:42< Ivanovic> ;)
20130401 12:54:48< Gambit> bumbadadabum: Bannings are not up to a vote.
20130401 12:55:15< Gambit> Some other people need to remember that.
20130401 12:55:35< bumbadadabum> Well, this guy is clearly not serious
20130401 12:55:39< shadowm> Gambit: In some forums, they are. Not here, anyway.
20130401 12:56:29< shadowm> Just noting that bumbadadabum might be coming from places where people are allowed to publicly vote on bans as though it was some kind of colosseum or some crap like that.
20130401 12:56:48< Gambit> Oh my god, the new Gmail sucks.
20130401 12:56:57< bumbadadabum> shadowm: Another forum I lurked did that with all complete idiots
20130401 12:57:24< bumbadadabum> in the "Spam" board
20130401 12:57:31< shadowm> Gambit: What new Gmail? I use IMAP.
20130401 12:57:33< shadowm> ;)
20130401 12:58:20< Gambit> I actually liked gmail's web interface more than any mail client I'd tried.
20130401 12:58:46< Gambit> My job at Pennswoods soured me on many web clients just from needing to explain them to the elderly for hours on end.
20130401 12:58:54< Gambit> *many mail clients
20130401 12:59:40< _8680_> IMAP or no, what new Gmail?
20130401 12:59:58< Gambit> When we migrated mail servers and had to help all X thousand customers change their settings... it was awful.
20130401 13:00:22< Gambit> _8680_: The new reply box and the fact that they want every attachment to be in google drive.
20130401 13:00:33< _8680_> Ah okay.
20130401 13:01:36< shadowm> Er.
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20130401 13:01:50 * shadowm wonders what the attachment business implies for IMAP users.
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20130401 13:02:24< Gambit> shadowm: You don't have to have them in google drive, they just bug you about it on the web interface every time.
20130401 13:02:56< Gambit> Similar to the youtube real name change.
20130401 13:02:59< shadowm> Okay, then I don't need to worry since I use IMAP.
20130401 13:03:05< shadowm> Yeah, the youtube thing is annoying.
20130401 13:03:06< Gambit> It isn't required, but they are going to harass you until you do it q.q
20130401 13:03:49< shadowm> Not that I would mind. I'm not one of those idiots who hide behind pseudonyms to spread hate speech and garbage comments throughout YT.
20130401 13:04:08< shadowm> But I don't know if I want my rather inane videos to be found under my real name.
20130401 13:04:54< shadowm> But yeah, IMAP = cool.
20130401 13:04:59< shadowm> That's really all there is to say on the matter.
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20130401 15:13:53< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-71-g7aa8807 / src/editor/action/mouse/mouse_action.hpp: Added a method that return value is used to enable/disable the brush bar.
20130401 15:13:54< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-70-g9cbc251 / data/core/editor/brushes.cfg data/core/images/editor/brush-1-active.png data/core/images/editor/brush-1-pressed.png data/core/images/editor/brush-1.png data/core/images/editor/brush-2-active.png data/core/images/editor/brush-2-pressed.png data/core/images/editor/brush-2.png data/core/images/editor/brush-3-active.png data/core/images/editor/brush-3-pressed.png data/core/images/editor/brush-3.png dat
20130401 15:13:55< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-73-g370b002 / po/wesnoth-editor/POTFILES.in src/CMakeLists.txt src/SConscript src/editor/editor_controller.cpp src/editor/editor_display.hpp src/editor/toolkit/brush.cpp src/editor/toolkit/brush.hpp src/editor/toolkit/brush_bar.cpp src/editor/toolkit/brush_bar.hpp src/editor/toolkit/editor_toolkit.cpp src/editor/toolkit/editor_toolkit.hpp src/hotkeys.cpp src/hotkeys.hpp src/theme.cpp src/theme.hpp: Removed all 
20130401 15:13:56< irker173> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-72-gc9eabcd / data/themes/editor.cfg: Removed the already commented brush_bar entry.
20130401 15:14:55< fabi> hmmm
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20130401 16:23:40< mordante> fabi, ?
20130401 16:23:52< fabi> mordante: hi
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20130401 16:44:11< fabi> esr: ping
20130401 16:44:37< esr> fabi: What's up?
20130401 16:45:34< fabi> esr: I remember you being part of a forge transition tool project. Do you have any knowledge about converting the gna bug database and importing it elsewhere?
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20130401 16:46:15< fabi> esr: I am currently thinking about a ldap that holds centralized user credentials for all our services like forum, multiplayer, bugtracker and wiki.
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20130401 16:46:36< esr> I wrote code that can read it, but not an injector into the target tracker.  I think Crab is working on that.
20130401 16:46:39< fabi> esr: The bug reporting system Ivanovic suggested is called redmine.
20130401 16:46:50< esr> I know of it.
20130401 16:47:36< esr> It has an injection API - going from the JSON my tool generates as a report to that should not be hard.
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20130401 16:50:31< fabi> esr: That sounds promising. Thus I consider redmine a valid target.
20130401 16:52:16< fabi> shadowm: There is a ldap auth module for phpbb. Could you get this to work? (assumed your impeachment fails)
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20130401 16:55:49< fabi> shadowm: Note that I can't hide the brush bar easily, gui1 is not able to fill the space of an hidden element. There would be an empty space between the toolkit and the palette. Thus I think just greying it out is fine as well.
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20130401 18:34:36< anonymissimus> nurupo: around ?
20130401 18:34:52< nurupo> kind of
20130401 18:35:04< nurupo> anonymissimus: i found what caused the crash on windows
20130401 18:35:21< nurupo> will be trying to fix this weekend
20130401 18:35:23< anonymissimus> on the problem you reported, does MSVC display you a std::ios_base::failure in the output window ?
20130401 18:35:51< anonymissimus> and the debugger crashes without a backtrace ?
20130401 18:36:01< nurupo> let me see
20130401 18:36:14< nurupo> have to reproduce this again
20130401 18:36:30< nurupo> (btw, i'm in the middle of a class)
20130401 18:36:41< anonymissimus> lol
20130401 18:38:05< nurupo> also, does this matter if i'm going to fix it anyway?
20130401 18:38:54< anonymissimus> well, yes, to see whether I have it also
20130401 18:39:24< anonymissimus> and to get info about since when it was around, since I think it may have appeared for teh first time perhaps a year ago
20130401 18:39:41< nurupo> okays
20130401 18:40:16< nurupo> so far i know that the crash is somehow related to the \userdata\save_index file
20130401 18:40:36< anonymissimus> yes, that is quite possible
20130401 18:40:46< nurupo> which contains just 2 non-characters
20130401 18:40:59< anonymissimus> since at that time there were changes in that area
20130401 18:41:04< nurupo> imean some control characters
20130401 18:42:50< nurupo> hope no one mines 2-line paste
20130401 18:43:00< nurupo> anonymissimus: 
20130401 18:43:01< nurupo> First-chance exception at 0x75ecc41f in wesnoth.exe: Microsoft C++ exception: boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::iostreams::gzip_error> > at memory location 0x00325524..
20130401 18:43:01< nurupo> First-chance exception at 0x75ecc41f in wesnoth.exe: Microsoft C++ exception: std::ios_base::failure at memory location 0x00325c0c..
20130401 18:43:03< nurupo> *minds
20130401 18:44:06< nurupo> do you only get the last exception?
20130401 18:45:38< anonymissimus> no
20130401 18:45:50< anonymissimus> okay, then looks like the same problem
20130401 18:46:17 * nurupo away
20130401 18:46:21< anonymissimus> yes, I think is appeared for the first time about one year ago when there were these save index changes
20130401 18:46:49< anonymissimus> so, that's a start point for finding the revision introducing it
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20130401 18:54:52< anonymissimus> zookeeper: I think you wrote the ship algorithm in SotBE::Clash of Armies ?
20130401 18:55:19< anonymissimus> they could launch some more often I think, I was playing on the hardest difficulty
20130401 18:55:43< anonymissimus> to compensate, they could be killable more easily by making them slower
20130401 18:56:34< anonymissimus> I think there were 4 in the whole scenario, I killed one before it could unload :)
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20130401 18:57:53< anonymissimus> the bridge however was pretty easy to defend, since I had 2 units with 1 xp point away from leveling positioned there, both were not attacked by the AI the whole scenario :)
20130401 19:01:04< anonymissimus> 4 meaning, a ship launched 4 times to transport units
20130401 19:01:16< zookeeper> anonymissimus, yeah, i did
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20130401 19:05:11< zookeeper> anonymissimus, i'm not sure if making them easier to kill is a good idea; killing them early on vs not killing them probably makes quite a big difference in difficulty
20130401 19:05:48 * zookeeper peeks at the WML
20130401 19:07:10< zookeeper> but how would they launch more often? currently they go back and forth as quickly as possible, and the only delay comes from possibly having to wait for units to board them
20130401 19:08:22< anonymissimus> zookeeper: I don't know how they could, the wml was too complex to grasp in a few minutes
20130401 19:09:06< anonymissimus> well, they had *many* units waiting and the ships were waiting as well, but only few entered
20130401 19:09:07< zookeeper> yeah... :]
20130401 19:09:57< anonymissimus> waiting meaning probably, not waiting to board a ship code-wise, but waiting to attack my units on the bridge castle
20130401 19:10:38< anonymissimus> it looked as if only freshly-recruited units are selected to board ships, not also other waiting units
20130401 19:11:08< anonymissimus> judging from how the AI moved, I didn't check the code further
20130401 19:13:29< anonymissimus> well, I think requiring the player to kill them quickly would suite the hardest difficulty
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20130401 19:15:37< zookeeper> ok, only one transport at a time can be boarded, so that slows it down a bit
20130401 19:17:09< zookeeper> ...but i don't really fancy changing that now, since i'd have to rewrite some stuff and it wouldn't be nice on easier difficulties anyway
20130401 19:19:43< mattsc> zookeeper: would you like me to have a look into setting up a custom AI for this (or something else) sometime?  Disclaimer:  It's been ages since I played SotBE, so I don't remember whether this would be a good application.
20130401 19:19:58< mattsc> No is a perfectly good answer, I certainly have no lack of things I want to do.
20130401 19:20:12< zookeeper> mattsc, sure, no problem
20130401 19:20:21< zookeeper> another SotBE scenario with ships is "black flag"
20130401 19:20:48< mattsc> zookeeper: ok, I'll have a look.
20130401 19:21:37< mattsc> anonymissimus: would you mind sending me a savefile from when you observed unideal behavior?
20130401 19:21:58< zookeeper> the thing is that the "AI" behaviour is entirely event-driven
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20130401 19:23:34< zookeeper> separating the simulated AI behaviour from the rest of the special logic (units boarding ships, etc) is likely a bit of a pain
20130401 19:24:30< mattsc> zookeeper: if you have suggestions how the AI (or events) should behave, let me know.  Otherwise I'll have a look and see what I can come up with.
20130401 19:25:00< mattsc> As in, differences from what it currently does, I mean.
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20130401 19:29:09< zookeeper> mattsc, well, the only major problems IMO are that the enemy units which are trying to get to a ship might be blocked by other units
20130401 19:29:12< zookeeper> and of course the player being able to use near-leveled units as a roadblock.
20130401 19:30:41< mattsc> zookeeper: ok, thanks.  I'll have to look into the situation on the map to decide whether the former is hard to deal with.
20130401 19:31:14< mattsc> The latter is a general problem of the AI.  That one could be dealt with quite easily with a custom CA.
20130401 19:32:17< mattsc> As in, set up a CA that attacks units at certain locations no matter what the expected outcome, going, for example, for maximum possible damage.
20130401 19:32:32< mattsc> In fact, that might make a good Micro AI.  :)
20130401 19:34:43< thunderstruck> mordante, did you check  the updated patch #3777?
20130401 19:34:53< zookeeper> btw, when you have time or interest in doing other campaign AI work, i ought to be able to name some scenarios with special needs
20130401 19:35:44< mattsc> zookeeper: I always have interest in that.  Time's a different question, but I'd like to see the list, if you don't mind.
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20130401 19:36:58< mordante> thunderstruck, no haven't seen the mail yet
20130401 19:37:16< zookeeper> mattsc, i don't have one ready off the top of my head, but i could try to come up with one sometime... but i might forget so you might want to bug me about it regularly ;)
20130401 19:38:39< thunderstruck> mordante, I guess the mail was probably lost, since I submitted it a few days ago.
20130401 19:39:21< mattsc> zookeeper: sounds good.  I won't be able to put much time into it soon anyway, so doing this slowly works for me.
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20130401 20:01:42< mordante> thunderstruck, might be, will look at it later, thanks for the ping
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20130401 20:38:37< mattsc> zookeeper: I had a (very) quick look at the transport WML from Clash of Armies.  So far, I see no particular difficulty putting all of this into an AI candidate action that deals with both the boats and the boarding units.
20130401 20:38:54< mattsc> A start of scenario safe would be very helpful though, if somebody has one.
20130401 20:39:08< mattsc> save?
20130401 20:55:43< anonymissimus> mattsc: I have no idea how an AI should be able to handle the ship boarding and unloading
20130401 20:56:21< anonymissimus> based on the things you did so far in your ai mdo demo etc
20130401 20:56:37< anonymissimus> this doesn't look like something ai modification can do
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20130401 20:57:54< mattsc> anonymissimus: in principle that shouldn't be a problem.  What I do not know off the top of my head (because I've not done it) is what I need to do to make it replay safe.
20130401 20:58:38< mattsc> But you can store information in unit or WML variables, take units off the map and put it back on etc.  All of that is easy to do.
20130401 20:58:57< mattsc> put *them back on ...
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20130401 21:00:18< mattsc> It's quite possible that I am missing something obvious though, I really only have had a quick look at the code.
20130401 21:02:35< mattsc> Mu guess is that if I have the AI take a unit off the map and store it somewhere, I'll get an OOS error in replays, won't I?  If I can figure out a way of doing that, the rest is "easy".
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20130401 21:05:13< mattsc> But in the worst case, we could set up "pseudo AI code" that just calculates the moves, stores them somewhere, and then have an event take care of them.
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20130401 21:45:47< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: the string in the options for continuous unit animations is incorrect in the German translation, it is the one for idle animations instead
20130401 21:58:12< Ivanovic> okay, just sent a mail to the ML to hopefully conclude the git move stuff
20130401 21:58:42< Ivanovic> meaning: Gambit, shadowm: you are willing to do the move parts to github in case the vote goes for it? (very likely outcome)
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20130401 22:00:22< stikonas> Ivanovic: Hi. Is it OK to send git pull requests for translations?
20130401 22:00:49< Ivanovic> stikonas: better send me the stuff by mail though i don't have a checkout here right now anyway...
20130401 22:01:16< Ivanovic> stikonas: the matter is that i always run pofix and the make commands on the files before submitting to ensure they are up to date
20130401 22:01:28< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: can you just fix it?
20130401 22:01:48< Ivanovic> anonymissimus: no checkout here right now and with my box down here in the south i wanted to wait until the move is final and concluded...
20130401 22:02:21< stikonas> Ivanovic: I can still wait some time before sending the translations. Maybe Espreon has git checkout. And in any case pofix wouldn't work on Lithuanian language...
20130401 22:02:49< Ivanovic> nope, Espreon already told me that he is waiting for the move to git to be concluded before getting his checkout
20130401 22:02:58< stikonas> I always merge pot files myself, so strings become fuzzy anyway
20130401 22:03:22< stikonas> ok, I can wait for git stuff to settle down anyway
20130401 22:03:29< Ivanovic> yeah, but i am too dumb to be able to keep in mind which translation team is doing what and handling things how
20130401 22:03:42< Ivanovic> so it is easier for me to just apply the same rules to all the ones I handle
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20130401 22:32:57< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: I don't know how to do that, I never do anything with translations
20130401 22:33:28< Ivanovic> okay
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20130401 22:33:57< anonymissimus> hm and I think I would need to install a po  editor
20130401 22:34:17< anonymissimus> but wouldn't it get overriden anyway next time translations are updated
20130401 22:34:28< mordante> anonymissimus, a text editor also works to modify a po file
20130401 22:35:03< anonymissimus> yes, in the way a text editor without anything works to modify c++, right ?
20130401 22:35:42< mordante> yes, but I think notepad++ might be helpful, for both C++ and po-files
20130401 22:36:27< mordante> (and of course vim is great for both C++ and po-files on Linux, but vim feels out of place on Windows)
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20130401 22:36:55< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-60-gb9dc9e7 / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/list.hpp src/gui/widgets/listbox.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/pane.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp src/gui/widgets/text_box.hpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.hpp src/g
20130401 22:36:56< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-61-g350dfd9 / src/gui/widgets/container.cpp src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/control.cpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/pane.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.cpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.hpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_no
20130401 22:36:56< anonymissimus> vim is a nightmare
20130401 22:36:57< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-62-gb5a25c6 / src/gui/widgets/container.cpp src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/control.cpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.cpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.hpp src/gui/widgets/viewport.hpp src/gui/widgets/window.cpp src/gui/widgets/window.
20130401 22:36:58< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-63-g0c2e362 / src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/minimap.hpp src/gui/widgets/multi_page.cpp src/gui/widgets/multi_page.hpp src/gui/widgets/panel.hpp src/gui/widgets/spacer.cpp src/gui/widgets/spacer.hpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.cpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:36:59< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-64-gfe10d82 / src/gui/widgets/control.cpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/panel.hpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.cpp src/gui/widgets/toggle_panel.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:00< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-65-gb76f70b / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/pane.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.hpp src/gui/widgets/viewport.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:01< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-66-ga31f53d / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/drawing.cpp src/gui/widgets/drawing.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/image.cpp src/gui/widgets/image.hpp src/gui/widgets/label.cpp src/gui/widgets/label.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/minimap.cpp src/gui/widgets/minimap.hpp src/gui/widgets/pane.hpp src/gu
20130401 22:37:02< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-67-g043b71a / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/control.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/matrix.hpp src/gui/widgets/pane.hpp src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.hpp src/gui/widgets/viewport.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:03< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-68-g8cc7664 / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:04< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-70-gca6b632 / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:05< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-71-gf481345 / src/gui/widgets/container.cpp src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/label.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.cpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:06< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-69-g7228faa / src/gui/widgets/container.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator.hpp src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp src/gui/widgets/grid.hpp src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.hpp: Add C++11 override markers.
20130401 22:37:07< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-86-g4e561c6 / : Merge branch 'override_markers'
20130401 22:38:05< mordante> anonymissimus, vim requires a certain taste, I like it, but I am not surprised a lot of people dislike or even hate it
20130401 22:39:42< AI0867> did something like 15 commits just get eaten, or is this a git describe thing?
20130401 22:40:11< mordante> AI0867, no idea I committed a merged topic-branch
20130401 22:40:13< AI0867> s/commits/commit notifications/
20130401 22:40:23< AI0867> probably just a git describe thing then
20130401 22:40:38< AI0867> like how you can't rely on the revision numbers of mercurial
20130401 22:41:11< irker410> Mark de Wever wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-87-gfbe1c73 / src/CMakeLists.txt: Remove some old revision number cruft.
20130401 22:41:40< mordante> I'm not sure what process even adds those numbers
20130401 22:42:26< AI0867> it counts the number of commits between the tag and itself, so there were probably 15 commits parallel to your branch
20130401 22:43:09< mordante> 12 + a merge
20130401 22:43:38< mordante> however starting at 15:13 fendrin committed 70 -- 73
20130401 22:43:45< Espreon> http://sourceforge.net/p/wesnoth/code/ci/f481345fcaf32adb535bae858073e4b015811889/ ... Intresting changes are interesting.
20130401 22:43:59< AI0867> yeah, the numbers aren't stable
20130401 22:44:53< mordante> yup seems like it
20130401 22:45:00< mordante> Espreon, why?
20130401 22:45:13< Espreon> I detect a hint of spite in this commit.
20130401 22:45:56< Espreon> That's why.
20130401 22:47:34< mordante> you know I really get tired of all the nagging and complaining around here :-(
20130401 22:48:44< Espreon> I neither nag nor complain.
20130401 22:50:36< mattsc> anonymissimus, zookeeper: just did a very quick test for confirming what I thought would happen:
20130401 22:51:57< mattsc> If I have the AI take a unit off the map, this does not cause an OOS error by itself, the unit just doesn't get taken off.  This can then, of course, cause OOS errors later.  (and is also wrong in itself, of course)
20130401 22:53:47< mattsc> Currently I see no way around that, but we could replace the WML transport code with "AI-like" lua code, if we wanted.
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20130401 22:56:41< mordante> I'm off night
20130401 22:56:56< Espreon> Good night.
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20130401 22:57:07< bumbadadabum> Sweet prince
20130401 22:57:12< zookeeper> mattsc, right... well, the current WML-only way has the benefit of all the ship-related logic being in one place, so to speak
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20130401 22:59:37< mattsc> zookeeper: it's up to you if you want me to try that.  I'll ask Crab_ if there's some way of having this handled from within the AI, but my understanding is that that's probably not the case.
20130401 23:00:18< zookeeper> mattsc, i have no wishes either way WRT that scenario, as long as you don't break anything :p
20130401 23:00:41< mattsc> including replays ...  :)
20130401 23:00:45< zookeeper> however, i think there's plenty of other scenarios which would benefit more and be less complicated
20130401 23:01:42< mattsc> zookeeper: ok, sounds good to me.  I'll wait for you to tell me about one (or several) of those and keep myself busy otherwise in the meantime.
20130401 23:02:19< zookeeper> i was just about to say that i could dig up a scenario or two right now ;)
20130401 23:02:55< mattsc> Now, tomorrow, 6 months from today ...  That's all good.
20130401 23:03:04< mattsc> Whatever works for you.
20130401 23:05:28< zookeeper> in liberty's first scenario, the wolf riders have traditionally never really been smart about trying to reach the village
20130401 23:06:10< zookeeper> i'm sure that a human player would be able to outmanouver side 1
20130401 23:06:46< zookeeper> so, making the AI really try to reach the village and forget about fighting if there's any danger of being hindered by it would be nice
20130401 23:07:51< zookeeper> the player's starting units and/or positions would need to be adjusted accordingly, but that's my problem
20130401 23:08:55< mattsc> zookeeper: that sounds like an interesting problem.  (It's also convenient that it's the first scenario.)
20130401 23:08:58< anonymissimus> mordante: the sliders for music volume etc are not visible anymore while I move the slider; it was not yet present in 1.11.2-63-geea59ab
20130401 23:10:00< anonymissimus> mordante: so likely introduced by the commits around bug 17220
20130401 23:12:17< AI0867> anonymissimus: you could bisect =P
20130401 23:15:56< zookeeper> mattsc, yeah. it ought to be very clear from the dialogue and WML what the riders _should_ try to do
20130401 23:16:11< zookeeper> that is, really try to get to that village
20130401 23:18:17< anonymissimus> AI0867: sure, it is not different than it was with git-svn
20130401 23:19:11< anonymissimus> mordante: yes, 1.11.2-64-g9c80bf6 apparently introduced it
20130401 23:24:39< mattsc> zookeeper: do you want those wolf riders to work together to get the leader to the village, or should they spread out and all go for it individually?
20130401 23:25:19< mattsc> The former behavior is already implemented in the "Messenger Escort" AI (and Micro AI), which I originally wrote for UtBS S8.
20130401 23:25:44< zookeeper> mattsc, depends on whether they'd be too effective in the former case, i think
20130401 23:25:46< mattsc> The latter I don't have, but it should be possible to write that too.
20130401 23:26:19< mattsc> I think it's always just a question of how many units you give each side.
20130401 23:26:30< zookeeper> there's quite a few of them and they're fast, so they'd be really effective in using their ZoC to cut the player off
20130401 23:26:51< mattsc> Do you know the Messenger AI scenario?
20130401 23:27:07< zookeeper> no, i'm not really familiar with any of the new AI stuff
20130401 23:27:25< bumbadadabum> I'd say spread out
20130401 23:27:29< bumbadadabum> they're some goblins
20130401 23:27:35< mattsc> Do you want to check it out (as in, should I tell you how to check it out)?
20130401 23:27:37< bumbadadabum> not an organized scouting party
20130401 23:27:55< zookeeper> mattsc, no time right now, unfortunately
20130401 23:28:44< mattsc> zookeeper: well, if you ever feel like testing it, simply start the Micro AI test scenario (in 1.11.2):
20130401 23:28:54< mattsc> > path/wesnoth-executable -t micro_ai_test
20130401 23:29:13< zookeeper> hmh, okay
20130401 23:29:17< mattsc> And select the Micro AI scenario.  You have to play  about 3 or 4 turns to get a feeling for what's going on.
20130401 23:29:48< mattsc> Sorry: select the 'Messenger Escort' scenario.
20130401 23:30:38< mattsc> Another version of doing something similar is the "Protect Unit" AI (also available from there), which can play (and win) the first scenario of HttT.
20130401 23:31:16< zookeeper> cool
20130401 23:31:39< mattsc> But then, if you'd prefer the spreading out version, for example for the reasons bumbadadabum brings up, that's fine by me too.
20130401 23:32:58< zookeeper> all right. the choice is pretty much a question of what results in more fun
20130401 23:34:11< mattsc> yep.  I think that could go either way; and different people will likely have different opinions on this.
20130401 23:34:36< mattsc> E.g. in my campaigns goblins are much dumber than in mainline.  :)
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20130401 23:34:59< bumbadadabum> for me
20130401 23:35:04< bumbadadabum> Orcs are just barbaric
20130401 23:35:09< bumbadadabum> and goblins are stupid
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20130401 23:40:30< anonymissimus> mordante: never mind; looks as if I confused something, sorry for alarm
20130401 23:42:05< mattsc> zookeeper: an idea would be to do "spread out" on easy, "protect leader" on medium, and "messenger escort" on hard.  Have some real difference between the difficulty levels.
20130401 23:42:28< mattsc> Actually, any of them could be each of the difficulty level, it just depends on the setup.
20130401 23:44:17< zookeeper> certainly
20130401 23:45:15< zookeeper> gotta go for tonight ->
20130401 23:45:41< mattsc> Ok, good night.  I won't get to this today (or likely any time this week) anyway.
20130401 23:46:08< mattsc> I'll just set up something sometime and see how you like it.
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 02 00:00:31 2013