--- Log opened Tue Apr 09 00:00:30 2013
20130409 00:09:02< fabi> LordBob-desk: Okay, code is ready. You can have screenshots now.
20130409 00:09:38< LordBob-desk> Good. I'll soon have a first set of images, though  I will likely finish the rest tomorrow 
20130409 00:10:59< fabi> cool
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20130409 00:25:42< LordBob-desk> Fabi: first set for the "up" action http://imagebin.org/253285
20130409 00:25:54< fabi> LordBob-desk: Thanks
20130409 00:26:41< LordBob-desk> I'll make the "down" action tomorrow, with inverted button volume and a blue glow instead
20130409 00:27:14< fabi> LordBob-desk: Can you name them?
20130409 00:27:18< fabi> The first is normal
20130409 00:27:34< fabi> The second touched
20130409 00:27:35< LordBob-desk> Look at the comment in imagebin
20130409 00:28:45< LordBob-desk> Is that alright ?
20130409 00:28:46< fabi> LordBob-desk: Okay, they are already fine. I am looking forward to see them together with the inverted blues.
20130409 00:29:18< LordBob-desk> Great. That'll have to wait until tomorrow, though: time for me to crash down
20130409 00:29:20< fabi> LordBob-desk: Can you put them in a set before you go to sleep? I would like to put them in use already....
20130409 00:29:48< LordBob-desk> Let's see...Do you have Gimp or photoshop ?
20130409 00:30:00< fabi> gimp, but I am a noob.
20130409 00:30:43< LordBob-desk> The quickest would be for me to provide the full layered archive (rasterized), which leaves the decomposition for you to do
20130409 00:31:19< LordBob-desk> Else I'll have to save eight different files, which I don't feel like doing right now
20130409 00:32:09 * LordBob-desk is sleepy
20130409 00:32:30< fabi> LordBob-desk: No problem. I can wait... Bonne Nuit.
20130409 00:32:49< LordBob-desk> Fabi: danke schon. See you tomorrow for the rest of the set
20130409 00:32:56< fabi> LordBob-desk: :-)
20130409 00:32:56< LordBob-desk> 'Night people
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20130409 01:10:27< irker761> anonymissimus wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-131-gc30e960 / projectfiles/VC9/files_with_deactivated_warnings.txt projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj projectfiles/VC9/wesnothd.vcproj projectfiles/VC9/wesnothlib.vcproj: mute some MSVC level 4 warnings thrown by included boost 1.46.1 headers
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20130409 01:19:16< anonymissimus> mattsc: is [ai][goal]name=protect_unit available in 1.10 already ?
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20130409 01:51:43< mattsc> anonymissimus: AFAIK yes
20130409 01:53:33< mattsc> anonymissimus: yes, introduced in 1.7.14-1.8beta7
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20130409 02:10:07< anonymissimus> mattsc: okay...well, I hope wmllint warns me once that [target] and [protect_unit] are actually deprecated
20130409 02:10:39< anonymissimus> so far it didn't
20130409 02:11:05< anonymissimus> mattsc: have you been the one who wrote a Konrad-moveto lua ai for me once ?
20130409 02:11:17< mattsc> I'll keep that in mind.  :)
20130409 02:11:42< mattsc> (that ^ was on the: adapt wmllint when it gets deprecated)
20130409 02:11:55< mattsc> anonymissimus: yes, that was me.  It was pretty crappy though.
20130409 02:12:36< mattsc> The current Patrol AI is much better than that
20130409 02:13:11< anonymissimus> well, not a patrol AI, an AI that basically does what the player does with Konrad in HttT::Elves Besieged
20130409 02:13:40< mattsc> Yes, I have that one also.
20130409 02:13:47< anonymissimus> go to the goal "when it is save", heal if you're wounded in a save castle
20130409 02:14:01< mattsc> In fact, AI-demos contains a scenario which plays that scenario (on easy).
20130409 02:14:02< anonymissimus> attack if you can without retaliation and can't escape
20130409 02:14:17< anonymissimus> and *do not block spots for the player*
20130409 02:14:46< anonymissimus> eh, I mean, heal in a save village
20130409 02:14:57< nurupo> >yipeee! wesnoth is in GSoC 2013! it still haven't shown up in the list though yet
20130409 02:14:58< nurupo> that's strange. anyway, hopefully there will be something for me to do :)
20130409 02:15:45< mattsc> anonymissimus: the retreat-to-save villages was in the AI I wrote for you.  The HttT::Elves_Besieged AI does not contain that.
20130409 02:16:19< mattsc> But doing a mix of the two should be reasonably straight-forward.
20130409 02:17:17< mattsc> What I mean up there: AI-demos contains a scenario in which the AI plays the players side of 'The Elves Besieged'
20130409 02:18:55< mattsc> anonymissimus: I'll have to be afk for 30 min or so.  (sorry, I know it's getting late on your side)
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20130409 03:27:01< vultraz> fabi: will there be a Flip Map function in the new editor?
20130409 03:27:15< fabi> vultraz: Yes
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20130409 09:01:04< LordBob-desk> Hi guys
20130409 09:01:13< LordBob-desk> Fabi: buttons are done
20130409 09:03:29< vultraz> hey LordBob-desk 
20130409 09:03:48< vultraz> what buttons would that be, I kinda lost track of which ones you're doing :P
20130409 09:03:56< LordBob-desk> http://imagebin.org/253325
20130409 09:04:12< LordBob-desk> Specific frames for the terrrain buttons in the editor
20130409 09:04:50< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: Fabi wants to replace the existing selected button border by something more graphic
20130409 09:05:16< vultraz> eh...hm
20130409 09:05:53< vultraz> I don't like the fact the the terrains look like they're on buttons
20130409 09:05:57< vultraz> they're hard to see
20130409 09:06:07< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: altogether, there would be at most 2 of these active at the same time
20130409 09:07:46< LordBob-desk> Plus, they're not final yet; If the colored bordeer gets in the way, I might remove it and keep only the frame
20130409 09:08:36< vultraz> no, it's the fact that the terrains now are buttons
20130409 09:08:44< vultraz> instead of a simple hex grid
20130409 09:09:11< LordBob-desk> You mean the blue border is getting in the way ?
20130409 09:09:39< vultraz> I mean it looks cluttered
20130409 09:10:17< vultraz> I think the way it is currently is fine. a new selection border would be ok, but sticking all the terrains on button images makes it look bad
20130409 09:10:31< LordBob-desk> That can still be solved. What really matters is that at anytime the user is able to spot immediately which terrains are selected
20130409 09:11:02< LordBob-desk> Adding the button image underneath for the "normal" state is really optional
20130409 09:11:03< vultraz> I think they can pretty fine as it is
20130409 09:11:30< vultraz> are the different borders proof of concept?
20130409 09:12:43< LordBob-desk> The different borders respectively match the active/touched/pressed for 3 the use case of the existing editor : foreground terrain, background terrain, both
20130409 09:13:20< boucman_work> hey all
20130409 09:13:23< LordBob-desk> At any time, there would only be two hexes with a border, and the rest in the normal state
20130409 09:13:30< boucman_work> who should I ask for github access ?
20130409 09:13:39< LordBob-desk> Hi Boucman
20130409 09:13:49< boucman_work> hey
20130409 09:14:27< vultraz> boucman_work: I *think* AI0867, if that's what he meant in his last dev ml mail
20130409 09:14:29< boucman_work> oh, it' AI0867 :P
20130409 09:14:29< LordBob-desk> Santa is my best guess
20130409 09:14:51< boucman_work> vultraz: yes, it's him, thx
20130409 09:15:05< boucman_work> the mail on the ml didn't give his IRC nick so I wasn't sure
20130409 09:16:16< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: anyway, this is just preliminary artwork for consideration. Its purpose will be best discussed with Fabi, as he's doing the coding and overal editor revamp
20130409 09:17:09< vultraz> well, my opinion would just be to not add a button image underneath
20130409 09:17:39< vultraz> then there wouldn't be a need for 9 borders
20130409 09:17:44< vultraz> and it would look cleaner
20130409 09:18:12< vultraz> I'm kinda afraid we're starting to go the way of fantasy games that have a million buttons mashed all around
20130409 09:19:36< LordBob-desk> Heh. To the user it won't be buttons, but fancy animated selection borders :p
20130409 09:21:18< LordBob-desk> Either way, let's just way until Fabi is back and inserts the images in the editor ; actual screenshots will be a better proof of concept than my mock-up
20130409 09:21:43< LordBob-desk> But I'm all for removing the button border undernath the hex: it's less work for me
20130409 09:29:16< vultraz> BTW, shadowm mentioned that he thought radius and not total hex count for the brush buttons would be better
20130409 09:29:29< vultraz> has that been done while I wasn't paying attention, or something?
20130409 09:47:36< thunderstruck> fabi, did you add widescreen theme?
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20130409 10:58:54< boucman_work> AI0867: could you ping me when you're around ? thx
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20130409 11:05:10< LordBob-desk> Fabi: I posted the full set of button bases + terrain frames in the forums. Following the above discussion with Vultraz, I agree with him that it might be clearer if we do not use a button base for the "normal" state.
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20130409 11:11:21< Crab_> new_player: hello. You asked about some more details on AI_defence_strategy GSoC project?
20130409 11:16:11< new_player> yes please
20130409 11:16:49< AI0867> boucman_work: here
20130409 11:19:31< Crab_> new_player: ok. firstly, for me to know what to tell you, a question - have you played wesnoth before?
20130409 11:21:09< new_player> no , i haven,t played it, but i have played many strategy games before.
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20130409 11:25:18< Crab_> new_player: good. playing (at least a little) is important to know what exactly we want to do in wesnoth AI projects. Therefore, it's a good idea to play.
20130409 11:26:35< Crab_> new_player: if you play skirmishes against the AI, you'll note how wesnoth's AI selects attacks, and how it's possible to 'game' this system
20130409 11:28:52< new_player> Ok, sir ... i have already put it to download .I will check how its AI is responding.
20130409 11:29:56< Crab_> new_player: (note: need to call anyone here 'sir', usually we just address each other by IRC nickname ). 
20130409 11:30:25< new_player> Ok Crab_
20130409 11:30:33< Crab_> new_player: great. for start, you can just play a little. later, you'd need to set up compilation to be able to compile wesnoth from source with your changes.
20130409 11:31:42< vultraz> LordBob-desk: I think it would be better not display a button image below the terrain on any state
20130409 11:31:49< vultraz> having it on some but not the other would be weird
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20130409 11:34:56< Crab_> new_player: we should talk again in a day or two, once you've played vs AI a little. in particular, look at how AI chooses attacks.
20130409 11:36:25< new_player> Ok. Their is one thing in particular I want to know. What type of skills are required in particular. I have coded in a lot of languages so C++ is not an issue. I have also worked in building AI for games in my pacman project.Adversarial searches , building evaluation functions. Are these skills enough or u want me to know some more? 
20130409 11:36:28< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: it really doesn't make that big a difference. The border+background would appear when the mouse hovers a non-selected tile, and for other states the frame hides it. The background behind the tile only gets a bit lighter, that's all you see
20130409 11:37:17< LordBob-desk> What would you suggest instead ?
20130409 11:38:05< LordBob-desk> The key being, we want *something* to happen when the button is active
20130409 11:38:14< boucman_work> hey AI0867
20130409 11:38:16< LordBob-desk> *err, tile, not button
20130409 11:38:35< boucman_work> what is the official github project, and could you add me there please ?
20130409 11:39:33< AI0867> it's 'wesnoth'
20130409 11:39:39< AI0867> what's you username?
20130409 11:40:12< boucman_work> it's boucman :P
20130409 11:40:22 * boucman_work wonders how he could not find wesnoth on github
20130409 11:40:26< AI0867> added
20130409 11:40:42< AI0867> we don't have a repository yet
20130409 11:40:45< boucman_work> well there are 109 repo for wesnoth on github
20130409 11:40:48< Crab_> new_player: some C++ knowledge is enough. You'll also probably learn a bit of lua, but it's easy enough to learn, a scripting language.
20130409 11:40:50< AI0867> and too many other people have uploaded wesnoth there
20130409 11:40:51< boucman_work> maybe that's why :P
20130409 11:40:59< boucman_work> AI0867: ok, thx a lot
20130409 11:41:06< AI0867> it's like a needle in a haystack, except the needle is missing
20130409 11:41:33< Crab_> new_player: the main skill you'll need is to figure out (from playing, reading the code, reading the wiki docs) how the AI plays it's turn, understand the problem we have, and propose a way to solve the problem.
20130409 11:42:04< boucman_work> hehe
20130409 11:42:07< Crab_> new_player: for coding, there'll be need for some C++, but nothing too difficult.
20130409 11:42:56< Crab_> new_player: also, to have a good change of getting accepted, you'll need to submit 1-2+ patches to wesnoth (can be unrelated patches, just to show you can code)
20130409 11:43:17< Crab_> new_player: example patches might be 'fix bug FOO from bugs.wesnoth.org'
20130409 11:43:27< Crab_> s/change/chance
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20130409 11:44:29< new_player> Ok Crab_, I understood. Today, tommorrow I will play the game and check its response. I will also check out this bugs link. When will u be available online (GMT)?
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20130409 11:45:49< Crab_> new_player: somewhen between 9:00 - 16:00 ('day in europe'). also I can be reached by forum PM ( Crab )
20130409 11:46:28< Crab_> new_player: but not all that time, sometimes I'm afk.
20130409 11:47:36< new_player> OK. Thank You so much for your time Crab_, Have a nice day.
20130409 11:47:55< Crab_> ok. have a good time playing!
20130409 11:48:13< new_player> ok
20130409 11:50:13< boucman_work> "play the game" not the worst assignment ever :P
20130409 11:51:50< Crab_> boucman_work: well, it's only the beginning. but, yes, there'll be quite a lot of playtesting during the project.
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20130409 11:57:41< thunderstruck> Crab_, hi. Since you are here I'll use opportunity to ask about gsoc project, even though I've just started to look at it and I don't have lots of specific question yet. I was looking at Multiplayer Campaign Support and it says "some hard C++ coding tasks). Could you elaborate on this?
20130409 11:59:07< thunderstruck> What's so hard in particular? I'm relatively new C++ coder, so I wonder if the project would be appropriate to me at all or just that I'll have to learn more.
20130409 11:59:22< Crab_> thunderstruck: hello. the basic problem is 'we have a huge pile of code which (mostly) works but we want it to work in a different way'. the challenge is to change it without breaking anything in the end.
20130409 11:59:55< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, it's not like 'write some new code', which is usually easier. it's like 'figure out exactly what parts of 300K lines of code you need to touch, and how, for everything to still work afterwards'
20130409 12:00:43< Crab_> thunderstruck: you can figure out if it is good for you, by trying to read our code to see how it does some particular things like 'how to difficulty levels work?'
20130409 12:00:49< Crab_> thunderstruck: And, of course we'll help you get started.
20130409 12:01:31< Crab_> thunderstruck: for comparison, some of the other projects like AI recruitment, are way easier because you can just write your own code with a relatively simple interface to the other code.
20130409 12:01:52< Crab_> and here you'll need to do some tricky changes.
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20130409 12:02:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, I see. Thanks.
20130409 12:02:26< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, the main skill that is needed is 'reading code'
20130409 12:03:04< vultraz> AI0867: can you add me too?
20130409 12:03:10< thunderstruck> Crab_, and actually, I haven't decided which project to choose. There are just 2 non-AI project there.
20130409 12:03:15< AI0867> vultraz: you tried that yesterday
20130409 12:03:18< thunderstruck> And I haven't worked with AI before.
20130409 12:03:47< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes, AI projects are more tricky (for other reasons), since there's usually some research involved.
20130409 12:04:06< vultraz> I tried?
20130409 12:04:17< thunderstruck> Crab_, so if the main skill is needed is 'reading code', then one could say that it is not 'hard C++ coding tasks', but 'hard programming tasks in general'?
20130409 12:05:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes and no. firstly, all the code in question is in C++. secondly, after reading you'll have to change it :)
20130409 12:05:15< Crab_> thunderstruck: but I'd say that reading is the hardest part.
20130409 12:05:29< _Coffee> where can I sign up to read code for money :)
20130409 12:05:38< vultraz> AI0867: what do you mean
20130409 12:05:39< AI0867> ugh, wrong person
20130409 12:05:41< AI0867> misremembering
20130409 12:06:10< boucman_work> _Coffee: you want to be a GSoC student ?
20130409 12:06:17< Crab_> _Coffee: in a lot of places. there are a lot of bugs that can be fixed by changing 1 line here and there, bugs worth thousand $$$$. but here, in particular, we have gsoc :)
20130409 12:06:31< _Coffee> boucman_work: I don't think I'd qualify
20130409 12:06:33< AI0867> vultraz: what's your account name?
20130409 12:06:39< _Coffee> I left unit about 5 eyears ago
20130409 12:06:44< _Coffee> *university
20130409 12:06:47< boucman_work> oh, ok
20130409 12:06:51< AI0867> 'Vultraz'?
20130409 12:07:31< thunderstruck> Crab_, so, reading > debugging > coding -- by the level of difficulty? :)
20130409 12:07:51< vultraz> AI0867: yes
20130409 12:08:30< Crab_> thunderstruck: I'd say just  'reading > writing', and to debug you need both (for me, I usually debug by reading code, then adding a few log statements here and there, then running it again to check on my ideas)
20130409 12:08:44< boucman_work> thunderstruck: that's a complicated philosophical debate and I'd argue that debugging and reading is really the same exercise
20130409 12:10:49< thunderstruck> boucman_work, of course. E.g. Coding involves more creativity in my opinion, so it is probably not even fair to compare it like that.
20130409 12:11:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: it'
20130409 12:11:50< thunderstruck> Crab_, ?
20130409 12:11:51< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's ok, since creativity and difficulty are different things. for example, it might be that writing code is easier and more creating then reading code
20130409 12:13:09< AI0867> vultraz: done
20130409 12:13:42< vultraz> thanks :)
20130409 12:18:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, hmm.. You might be right :) Thanks for the answers. I think I'll go for this idea, since I rather enjoy reading code (at least so far).
20130409 12:19:00< thunderstruck> An the whole idea sounds interesting of course.
20130409 12:21:42< Crab_> thunderstruck: it would be good, for this project, to make or find a small campaign (with 1-2 scenarios), with different difficulty levels.
20130409 12:22:01< Crab_> thunderstruck: you can ask for help with that on wesnoth's forums or here, or take existing campaigns and see how they are coded.
20130409 12:22:32< Crab_> thunderstruck: then, you'll know what the campaign author does to enable multiple difficulty levels. then, you'll know what to look for in the source code, to figure our how it works
20130409 12:22:49< Crab_> thunderstruck: and I'll be glad to talk again once you'll have more specific questions
20130409 12:24:35< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. See you later then.
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20130409 14:14:25< fabi> hi LordBob-desk and vultraz.
20130409 14:14:36< LordBob-desk> Hi Fabi
20130409 14:14:37< fabi> I need to catch up with the channel log.
20130409 14:14:57< fabi> hi Crab_
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20130409 14:15:24< LordBob-desk> Fabi: Long story short, I posted the terrain frames on the forum
20130409 14:34:04< fabi> LordBob-desk: Ah yes. And I see that the ones for "Normal" are not included.
20130409 14:34:53< LordBob-desk> Fabi: technically, everything required to create the buttons/frames should be included in the package
20130409 14:35:23< LordBob-desk> But what I would recommand is to make a first try without using the "base" images
20130409 14:35:34< fabi> Okay, no problem.
20130409 14:35:54< LordBob-desk> Only the "frames" would be used, with one exception
20130409 14:36:55< LordBob-desk> The "active" state (hovered, but not pressed yet) would use the "base_active" image, displayed below the hex
20130409 14:37:39< LordBob-desk> If, like Vultraz thinks, the result doesn't look good, I'll come up instead with a semi-transparent frame for better consistency
20130409 14:38:46< fabi> LordBob-desk: Okay, I haven't coded the image blending yet, since I wasn't sure what your needs are.
20130409 14:39:57< LordBob-desk> Fabi: in this case, maybe it is better that I produce right now the specific frame for the "active" state. This way, every state of the button will use the same type of blending and things are simpler
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20130409 14:40:58< fabi> LordBob-desk: Well, if that does not limit your results in any way. Coding wise the difference is: blend(a,b) vs blend(b,a).
20130409 14:41:52< LordBob-desk> Fabi: I don't think it will. Give me a minute and I'll send the alternate frame
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20130409 14:48:04< LordBob-desk> Fabi: there you are. I updated the forum post and added the extra frame. This way we won't have blending modes that depend on the state
20130409 14:48:36< fabi> LordBob-desk: Cool, tx. Please give me a final description of how those images are handled.
20130409 14:49:22< LordBob-desk> Fabi: For the "normal" state, it's just the terrain hex
20130409 14:49:59< LordBob-desk> Fabi: for every other state, blend the appropriate frame on top of the hex, and voilà
20130409 14:50:57< LordBob-desk> Fabi: noramlly, each frame should already be named according ot the button state it's associated with
20130409 14:51:15< fabi> Fine
20130409 14:52:42< LordBob-desk> Let me know when you'll have a couple screenshots ready: there might be some adjustments to make for the color of the inner glow (I didn't check if it blended nicely with every tile)
20130409 14:54:53< LordBob-desk> Fabi: one last question: when you mention blending, do you mean merely laying image a bove image b, or does the language handle different merging modes (overlay, screen, multiply, dodge, burn, ...) ?
20130409 14:55:06< LordBob-desk> *above
20130409 14:55:29< fabi> LordBob-desk: Hmmm, I can do everything that SDL is able to do.
20130409 14:59:15< fabi> LordBob-desk: http://www.libsdl.org/docs/html/sdlblitsurface.html
20130409 15:00:32< fabi> LordBob-desk: I guess this blit function is more low level. burn and dodge sound like extra filters applied.
20130409 15:01:28< fabi> LordBob-desk: I can't find a good name for the buttons.
20130409 15:02:03< fabi> Maybe tristate
20130409 15:02:11< LordBob-desk> Fabi: I've gotta admit it's all chinese to me, but a wild guess would be that it can handle transparency, but not transform the resulting colour like image editing software does
20130409 15:02:46< fabi> yeah
20130409 15:02:56< LordBob-desk> Oh, well, it's more a fancy animated border than a button. So FAB :p
20130409 15:03:12< fabi> :-)
20130409 15:03:24< fabi> rofl
20130409 15:03:40< fabi> fancy-animated-border-active-pressedup.png
20130409 15:04:03< fabi> fancy-animated-border it is.
20130409 15:04:27< fabi> shadowm will love this name.
20130409 15:04:45< LordBob-desk> Are we going to get the inquisition ?
20130409 15:05:03< fabi> huh?
20130409 15:05:36< LordBob-desk> (pissed shadowm = spanish inquisition. joke's not mine, though ^^;;)
20130409 15:05:53< fabi> I see.
20130409 15:06:19< fabi> No, I guess shadowm is very pleased with the palette no longer having drawing errors after the transition to FAB.
20130409 15:06:42< LordBob-desk> Oh, so that's good then. Anyway, whichever name is fine by me 
20130409 15:09:29< fabi> Renaming is no problem anyway.
20130409 15:14:14< fabi> LordBob-desk: Okay, I start to produce a screenshot.
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20130409 16:52:12< Mussi> hi, how are you guys doing?
20130409 16:53:23< vultraz> frustrated
20130409 16:54:27< Mussi> how come?
20130409 16:55:24< vultraz> I suck at making maps
20130409 16:56:00< Mussi> :(
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20130409 17:05:53< anonymissimus> mattsc: I think I'm gonna use the protect_leader and healer_support micro AIs
20130409 17:06:25< mattsc> anonymissimus: cool  :)
20130409 17:06:28< anonymissimus> mattsc: Does a micro AI work in combination with other normal [ai] settings (specifically [avoid])
20130409 17:07:05< anonymissimus> mattsc: since I watched the ai move onto some terrain it should avoid, even though it seems it avoids it more than without [avoid]
20130409 17:07:14< mattsc> In principle yes, but ...
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20130409 17:07:53< anonymissimus> mattsc: ease of use and documentation is really good for the micro AIs
20130409 17:08:00< mattsc> It really depends on what you are talking about, and there are some bugs (in Wesnoth, not in the Micro AIs)
20130409 17:08:12< mattsc> (thanks)
20130409 17:08:22< mattsc> Let me elaborate a little ...
20130409 17:08:54< mattsc> So, there's a bug that the standard aspects don't get set if the Lua of FAI engine is defined.
20130409 17:09:14< mattsc> See the first bullet here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior#Ideas_for_Potentially_Easy_AI_Patches
20130409 17:10:11< anonymissimus> mattsc: well, I'm trying to make elvish allies on a map with a lot of forest to avoid !,C*,K*,*^V*,*^F*
20130409 17:10:34< anonymissimus> move only to castle, keep, village, forest
20130409 17:10:36< mattsc> As for the [avoid] tag, that only applies to the standard AI CAs.  So if the move you observe is handled by those, it should work.  If it is handled by the Micro AIs, then it isn't.
20130409 17:10:56< mattsc> But I could add that functionality.
20130409 17:11:09< anonymissimus> I saw a fighter in water, no micro AIs for fighters
20130409 17:11:32< mattsc> Another restriction is that you currently can only use one Micro AI per side (well, with exceptions)
20130409 17:11:49< anonymissimus> mattsc: also, could the healer AI have a SUF added ? so that the behavior only applies to certain healers
20130409 17:12:14< anonymissimus> that would make it much more useful
20130409 17:12:20< mattsc> Yes, that should be easy.
20130409 17:12:37< anonymissimus> for instance, I want a druid to behave that way, but shamans shouldn't
20130409 17:12:57< mattsc> Ok, shouldn't be a problem.
20130409 17:13:31< anonymissimus> mattsc: another idea for a micro AI could be a "passive_leader" one
20130409 17:13:35< mattsc> anonymissimus: in general, I'd much appreciate any feedback on the Micro AIs.  So far they are essentially just my idea of what should be done, with very little testing by others.
20130409 17:13:59< anonymissimus> basically a bit improved passive_leader key
20130409 17:14:14< mattsc> In what way?
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20130409 17:14:32< anonymissimus> I noticed that if a passive_leader gets poisoned it apparently doesn't move to village, even if it's save
20130409 17:14:44< anonymissimus> that's the most important aspect
20130409 17:14:58< anonymissimus> others things could be heal if wounded, and share the keep
20130409 17:15:36< anonymissimus> other than that, only recruit/recall and don't ever leave your keep (except to heal)
20130409 17:16:11< mattsc> Ok, that should all be relative straight-forward.
20130409 17:16:20< mattsc> *relatively
20130409 17:16:34< mattsc> The main problem I see is defining when a village is considered safe.
20130409 17:16:43< anonymissimus> this passive_leader key basically is some way to prevent the "allied leader moves to shallow water to kill an unimportant enemy and gets killed, loosing the scenario" problem
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20130409 17:16:55< mattsc> Obviously, when no enemy can get to it, but that might not be the only situation.
20130409 17:17:35< anonymissimus> another huge problem about such micro AI would be that I would want it to combine with the healer one
20130409 17:18:08< mattsc> yeah ...
20130409 17:18:48< mattsc> I am waiting for some work to be done on the way how CAs are implemented (the "external CAs" to be precise), then that should not be a problem any more.
20130409 17:19:11< anonymissimus> however, I still have my wml-scripted "force the ai to heal wounded units" code, which appears to combine well with the protect_unit micro ai
20130409 17:19:22< mattsc> Nephro, Crab_: ^  maybe something to consider as a lead-up to GSoc also
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20130409 17:20:14< mattsc> anonymissimus: ok.  If it is really important for some scenario, I can also give you something that combines the two.
20130409 17:20:56< mattsc> It's, in principle, easily possible to make all the Micro AIs work together, but it would require that we always include a huge engine file.
20130409 17:21:07< anonymissimus> mattsc: where are the defining macros ? these {MICRO_AI_HEALER_SUPPORT} etc
20130409 17:21:20< mattsc> Since the external CAs are mostly done, I chose waiting for that instead.
20130409 17:22:25< mattsc> Everything's in data/ai/micro_ais
20130409 17:23:26< mattsc> Oh, sorry, except for the macros.  :P
20130409 17:24:07< mattsc> Those are in data/core/macros/ai_micro_ais.cfg
20130409 17:24:50< anonymissimus> ah okay so they include an [ai] tag
20130409 17:25:11< anonymissimus> I asked myself whether two [ai] tags in a [side] are okay
20130409 17:25:33< mattsc> yes, no problem.
20130409 17:25:42< mattsc> Except for that setting-aspects bug
20130409 17:26:21< mattsc> anonymissimus: afk for a moment (phone call)
20130409 17:28:18< anonymissimus> mattsc: okay, so if I have [side]{MICRO_AI_HEALER_SUPPORT} and then in the same [side][ai][avoid]..., that doesn't work because of the bug ?
20130409 17:44:47< mattsc> anonymissimus: to be honest, I don't know.  It's pretty easy to check with :inspect though.
20130409 17:44:57< mattsc> I can do that tonight, if you want me to.
20130409 17:45:28< mattsc> As in, I know it applies to the simple aspects (those that only have a key= syntax), I am not sure about the complex ones.
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20130409 17:55:32< vultraz> LordBob-desk: new generic story image concepts look great :)
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20130409 17:59:37< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: thanks.
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20130409 18:00:11< vultraz> I like the swamp one
20130409 18:01:06< LordBob-desk> It's modelled after a picture that already had great lighting. I barely had to tweak anything in order to give it a creepy atmosphere
20130409 18:01:09< mattsc> anonymissimus: btw, if you want to check with :inspect whether an AI aspect got set correctly, you need to do that after the first AI turn.  They only get parsed when they are needed.
20130409 18:04:57< vultraz> LordBob-desk: it reminds me of this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nz3l0lhsLxg/TcjCdqGWdmI/AAAAAAAAAL0/Qt4MiQ2YFaY/s1600/Swamp.jpg
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20130409 18:07:37< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: hehe, close, but that's not the model I used. :p Though I am indeed trying to get familiar with the colours of nature so that I can later produce images that have a great ambiance such as this one
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20130409 18:08:23< vultraz> NOTE TO SELF: look up who BFG hires to do their art
20130409 18:08:55< vultraz> all the MCF games (which their studio makes) have great atmosphere
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20130409 18:11:01< vultraz> example: http://diregrove.com/images/DG70.jpg 
20130409 18:12:15< vultraz> or http://mysterycasefiles.com/pages/games/diregrove/screenshots/06.jpg
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20130409 18:14:52< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: nice. Who are these people (the game cretors) ?
20130409 18:14:57< LordBob-desk> *creators
20130409 18:15:35< LordBob-desk> Oh wait, that's who BFG is. Got it tbhis time
20130409 18:15:53< vultraz> I think Adrian Woods is the lead designer, dunno who the artists are
20130409 18:18:23< vultraz> LordBob-desk: looks like this guy did some of the art for the 13th Skull game http://jeffhaynie.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-paintings-from-mystery-case-files.html
20130409 18:20:00< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: I didn't know about the MCF game. What are they ?
20130409 18:20:35< LordBob-desk> (meaning, online, tablet, console, ...)
20130409 18:21:09< vultraz> Mystery Case Files, they're a Point and Click HOPA (Hidden Object Puzzle Adventure) game series for pc and mac
20130409 18:21:33< vultraz> so far there are 9 games in the series
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20130409 18:22:22< LordBob-desk> Those screens are gorgeous
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20130409 18:23:14< vultraz> hm, seems that Jeff guy worked on more of the games than just 13th Skull
20130409 18:23:46< vultraz> he has a post with some concept art from Escape from Ravenhearst (8th game in the series)
20130409 18:26:30< LordBob-desk> Heh. I might look into some of those games sometime...
20130409 18:26:40< LordBob-desk> Anyway, time to go. Will be back later
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20130409 18:40:15< anonymissimus> mattsc: "if I have [side]{MICRO_AI_HEALER_SUPPORT} and then in the same [side][ai][avoid]..., that doesn't work because of the bug ?": the answer is "yes" 
20130409 18:40:37< anonymissimus> or at least it doesn't work according to :inspect
20130409 18:40:53< anonymissimus> is it another bug ?
20130409 18:41:22< anonymissimus> if I remove the micro ai, the avoid gets parsed as expected
20130409 18:42:49< mattsc> anonymissimus: no, that would be the same bug
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20130409 18:43:09< mattsc> well, I assume so at least.
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20130409 18:44:14< mattsc> anonymissimus: you can try if one of the two methods described at that link works.
20130409 18:44:50< mattsc> (or I'll do it later, but can't right now)
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20130409 18:52:02< anonymissimus> mattsc: yeah, with modify_side it works
20130409 18:53:01< zookeeper> Crab_, hi, any news on the NukeDPL thing? we still have wiki registration disabled because otherwise we'll drown in new spam.
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20130409 18:55:23< mattsc> anonymissimus: ok, good.  It's on my list to look into this, but it's not made it up high enough yet since there is an easy work around (and there were only a handful of people using it until now)
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20130409 18:58:12< mattsc> anonymissimus: so I got two tasks out of this:
20130409 18:58:54< mattsc> 1. Add SUF to healer_support
20130409 18:59:09< mattsc> 2. Set up a more versatile passive_leader MAI
20130409 18:59:56< mattsc> 1. should be really easy, but I want to do some testing and the next couple days are really busy for me (both days and evenings).  I'll do it asap though.
20130409 19:01:56< fabi> mattsc: MICRO_AI_HEALER_SUPPORT is doing what?
20130409 19:02:46< mattsc> fabi:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs#Healer_Support_Micro_AI_.28ai_type.3Dhealer_support.29
20130409 19:04:13< fabi> cool
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20130409 19:19:56< anonymissimus> mattsc: more precisely, a passive_leader ignores the goto_x and goto_y unit wml description settings, which I use to force the ai to heal its units; thus the algorithm doesn't work for passive (poisoned) leaders
20130409 19:20:11< anonymissimus> this can be considered a bug
20130409 19:20:34< mattsc> anonymissimus: you can use [leader_goal] though.
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20130409 19:21:02< anonymissimus> when I used that tag last it didn't work
20130409 19:21:14< anonymissimus> same for passive_leader_shares_keep
20130409 19:21:39< anonymissimus> also, that would mean to distinguish between leaders and other units
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20130409 19:22:58< mattsc> anonymissimus: I don't remember if I tested whether either of those works and they were developed "before my time"), I should test that sometime.
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20130409 19:24:05< mattsc> If it doesn't work, that would be a bug, yes.
20130409 19:25:56< mattsc> Btw, changing passive_leader so that it is configurable to use certain CAs such a goto_x/y (other than the leader_only CAs) would require changing the C++ AI code.
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20130409 19:26:56< mattsc> I'd probably prefer to add an optional separate CA for that (esp. since I don't like the goto_x/y method very much anyway)
20130409 19:28:15< mattsc> anonymissimus: just let me know sometime in as much detail as possible what behavior you'd like, and I'll think about how best to achieve that.  (if there's anything you haven't said yet)
20130409 19:28:27< mattsc> No rush, the earliest I'll get to this is the weekend anyway.
20130409 19:28:28< Ivanovic> AI0867, shadowm, Gambit: what is the current status of the move to github?
20130409 19:28:32< Ivanovic> how are things progressing?
20130409 19:29:31< mattsc> In the meantime, I'll add testing [leader_goal] and passive_leader_shares_keep for passive leaders to my list.
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20130409 19:41:44< thunderstruck> Can I access Wesnoth preferences file from WML?
20130409 19:43:27< Sirp> thunderstruck: no. Or at least, I don't think so.
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20130409 19:50:10< mattsc> anonymissimus: thinking about it (a little) more, I'm wondering whether I should simply add another Micro AI that is a more versatile Goto CA.
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20130409 19:51:24< mattsc> It would take both an SUF (of units to move) and an SLF (for locations to move to), plus a number of keys to configure how desparately the units try to get there etc.
20130409 19:52:00< mattsc> You could then use this to retreat injured leaders (or other units) to villages, move Konrad to the goal post etc.
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20130409 20:00:54< mattsc> Crab_: do you know how close Nephro is with finishing the external CAs?
20130409 20:01:43< mattsc> The 2 things that are missing (that I know of at this time) are passing of parameters to them and the existence of a persistent variable across the CAs.
20130409 20:07:57< thunderstruck> How one could set something like global variable in WML?
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20130409 20:23:18< bumbadadabum> LordBob-desk: I like your new story art thingies
20130409 20:23:38< LordBob-desk> Heh, thanks :)
20130409 20:24:33< LordBob-desk> Don't hesitate to post requests if you think of images that would make good story art: I'm always doing exercises like those
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20130409 20:35:05< mordante> servus
20130409 20:36:13< mordante> thanks for adding me AI0867 
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20130409 20:55:24< anonymissimus> mattsc: well, the requirements are not the same; for the moving Konrad I want a "rather move back if there are enemies" behavior; for healing it's okay to not check that
20130409 20:56:15< anonymissimus> for leaders, we are probably lost anyway if it cannot move safely to a village near its keep and other units are allowed to ide
20130409 20:57:52< mattsc> anonymissimus: yes, the trick would be to make it configurable so that it can be used either way.
20130409 20:57:55< anonymissimus> this "prefer to retreat away, even if the distance to the goal hex increases" behavior is the reason for using the micro_ai in the first place
20130409 20:58:47< mattsc> I don't think that it's too hard to do that and a Micro AI like that could be very useful for other purposes as well.
20130409 20:59:43< anonymissimus> where did the grunt rush go to btw ? it's no longer in your addon
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20130409 21:00:46< mattsc> Umm, it is, I think.  You choose it from the MP lobby (or from the commandline).
20130409 21:00:54< AI0867> Ivanovic: esr said he'd be done with fixing the repository on wednesday. I'm currently adding devs to the organization (as they tell me what their github usernames are). I'm not sure about the status of the wiki changes
20130409 21:01:36< mattsc> anonymissimus: btw, I just did a quick test, and [leader_goal} works in combination with passive_leader=yes
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20130409 21:09:29< mattsc> anonymissimus: let me try to get my thoughts on this sorted out.  IIRC, you've made 3 requests:
20130409 21:09:47< mattsc> 1. Add an SUF to the Healer Support MAI
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20130409 21:10:24< mattsc> 2. Add something to the Protect Unit MAI that retreats the leader to villages when injured.
20130409 21:10:48< mattsc> 3. Let a passive leader retreat to a village when injured.
20130409 21:11:28< mattsc> ... and all of that should ideally be combinable (is that a word?) with other MAIs
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20130409 21:12:10< mattsc> Did I misunderstand any of that and/or miss something?
20130409 21:14:36< anonymissimus> 2. and 3. are solutions for the same problem
20130409 21:16:23< anonymissimus> and it doesn't need to be a passive leader, it just should not put itself into a dangerous position just to finish some enemy
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20130409 21:17:13< mattsc> But that's actually a different problem.
20130409 21:17:41< mattsc> The passive leader doesn't do anything (not even attack a weak enemy right next to it), so we need to make it do something (retreat)
20130409 21:18:01< mattsc> For an active leader we need to do that, but also prevent it from doing something stupid on top of that.
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20130409 21:20:03< mattsc> anonymissimus: my guess is that we're really meaning the same thing and are just using different words because we're coming at it from different angles
20130409 21:20:33< mattsc> Maybe it would be easiest if you tell me what you want to accomplish in your scenario
20130409 21:24:10< mordante> I'm off bye
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20130409 22:25:30< anonymissimus> mattsc: how do the healer and protect_unit MAIs treat allied units, as opposed to own ones ? I hope they don't make a difference
20130409 22:26:53< anonymissimus> for the protect one at least; for the healer it is probably too much to let an Ai foresee which allied units might get attacked
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20130409 22:28:24< mattsc> anonymissimus: yeah, for healing I think we only consider units on the own side.  Let me check.
20130409 22:29:59< mattsc> Yes, healer_support only considers units on the own side and enemy units.
20130409 22:30:52< anonymissimus> this is something to mention in the documentation
20130409 22:30:54< mattsc> That's a good point though, it considers which of its own units can be reached by the enemy, given the current situation on the map.  If an allied side moves in between that and the enemy side, that might be different.
20130409 22:31:18< mattsc> Yes, I will.  Didn't think of that, thanks.  Let me check the protect_unit code next ...
20130409 22:31:30< Mr_FauxPas> Hey there, a student applying for GSoC here. I'd like to ask, where or how can I get permissions for posting my own wiki page ?
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20130409 22:34:03< mattsc> anonymissimus: protect_unit does the same and for the same reason: it's not really possible to know where the allied units will be if they move before the enemy...
20130409 22:35:13-!- enchilado [~enchilado@defocus/yummy/enchilado] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130409 22:37:03< mattsc> anonymissimus: hmm, that's a really good point, but I don't currently see a way of dealing with this...
20130409 22:39:18< mattsc> Essentially, the AIs assume that things won't get worse by the ally moving in between the own move and the enemy.
20130409 22:44:47< mattsc> Mr_FauxPas: usually you could just do it, but currently registration on the wiki is disabled because of a massive spam attack.  
20130409 22:45:14< mattsc> I'm not sure exactly whom you should talk to, shadowm maybe.
20130409 22:45:51< Mr_FauxPas> Ok, thanks
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20130409 22:57:11< iulians> hi, my name is Iulian and I am new over here
20130409 22:57:28< iulians> I would like to know from where I could start
20130409 22:57:41-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20130409 22:58:40< iulians> and I would like to know if you moved your repo from svn to git
20130409 23:01:06< Espreon> Well, we did make that move, but we're going to be moving to a different host soon.
20130409 23:01:15< Espreon> Out git repository's on SourceForge.
20130409 23:06:25< iulians> And if I would like to solve some bugs where could I do that on SourceForge or on svn repo?
20130409 23:07:45< Espreon> Well, stuff only gets sent to the git repository now, so use the stuff from our git repository. Though, our tracker's still on Gna.
20130409 23:09:07< AI0867> the git repository will be invalidated and replaced with a new one soon though
20130409 23:09:34< AI0867> invalidated because some history needs to be rewritten
20130409 23:09:44< AI0867> and it'll be at github, not sourceforge
20130409 23:11:59< AI0867> so, you have a few options. You could wait for a few days and get the new repo from github, you could clone the current sourceforge repo and replace it soon afterwards, or you could (if what you're working on hasn't changed recently) get an svn checkout of the old repo (because it's lighter-weight than a git clone)
20130409 23:15:39< iulians> hmm, I am not a svn fun... I've seen you changing, and I said that I could contribute on you project . If there will a few days than I will waiting.
20130409 23:16:03< iulians> Until than i will start watching your all repo
20130409 23:18:33< nurupo> it hasn't been a single day that wesnoth is on the list and already so many students want to work on it :)
20130409 23:20:02< anonymissimus> mattsc: another thing you could work on is graceful error messages upon strict validity checks of input parameters
20130409 23:20:18< anonymissimus> it's sometimes hard to guess what's wrong
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20130409 23:21:53< mattsc> anonymissimus: you mean for the Micro AIs or the Wesnoth AI(s) in general?
20130409 23:22:23< anonymissimus> the micro AIs
20130409 23:22:33< fabi> hi
20130409 23:22:46< anonymissimus> for instance, I just had some long stacktrace of passing strings to find_path
20130409 23:23:01< mattsc> anonymissimus: okay, that's easy enough.
20130409 23:24:09< anonymissimus> it was because I'm passing some variables to the micro_ai tag whichh are initialized in a prestart event, and I was calling the micro_ai tag also from a prestart event, but the latter placed above the former
20130409 23:24:39< anonymissimus> so, here something like "invalid coordinates" should come
20130409 23:25:18< anonymissimus> I mean, they are intended to be used by people who don't know lua, they'll have a hard time guessing the cause
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20130409 23:28:28< mattsc> anonymissimus: makes sense, I'll add it to the list.  Thanks for all the feedback btw.
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20130409 23:31:18< fabi> AI0867: There is no git cp. Do you know of an alternative?
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20130409 23:48:01< shadowm> zookeeper: 18:47:50 <shadowm> I am reenabling wiki registrations since that's apparently needed by GSoC applicants.
20130409 23:49:38< shadowm> Mr_FauxPas_AFK: You should be able to register from the wiki login page again.
20130409 23:49:53< AI0867> fabi: just copy, git will notice it's the same file
20130409 23:50:17< fabi> AI0867: Cool, tx.
20130409 23:50:33< shadowm> Mr_FauxPas_AFK: Sorry for the inconvenience, we had registrations disabled because of a spam issue and nobody had asked for reenabling them yet.
20130409 23:51:01< LordBob-desk> fabi: any luck with the terrain buttons ? I'm curious to see the final result :)
20130409 23:51:21< AI0867> git does not track filenames, it tracks contents.
20130409 23:51:27< shadowm> LordBob-desk: The "Spanish Inquisition" joke is not funny.
20130409 23:51:46< AI0867> well, it does track filenames, but they're not treated in any special way
20130409 23:52:00< fabi> LordBob-desk: Wait a few more minutes :-)
20130409 23:52:02< Espreon> What Spanish inquisition joke?
20130409 23:53:38< shadowm> Espreon: Nothing that should be discussed in this channel to begin with.
20130409 23:53:46< shadowm> Espreon: I'll tell you in private.
20130409 23:53:50< Espreon> Very well.
20130409 23:54:23< LordBob-desk> shadowm: oh, well. I'll restrain, then.
20130409 23:55:14< shadowm> Ivanovic: The status is "we are waiting for esr to do the history rewrite thing".
20130409 23:55:36< shadowm> Ivanovic, AI0867 : I won't work on the wiki until the repository is pushed.
20130409 23:56:14< shadowm> Unless you'd rather have people try to pull a non-existent repo in the meantime, not sure if that's what you want.
20130409 23:57:49< Mr_FauxPas_AFK> Hm, this template is to be copied on applicant's user page ?
20130409 23:58:10< Mr_FauxPas_AFK> i mean GSoC student template
20130409 23:58:20< shadowm> Ivanovic: Shouldn't the "create a gna.org" account step in the SummerOfCodeIdeas page be removed though?
20130409 23:58:42< shadowm> Or at least clarified. It's useful for submitting patches right now, but not for committing.
20130409 23:59:18< shadowm> I'm also clearing the GSoC applicants group in the forums so we can add new people.
--- Log closed Wed Apr 10 00:00:15 2013