--- Log opened Thu Apr 11 00:00:53 2013
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20130411 00:19:28< anonymissimus> Upthorn: perhaps you entered CRLFs but it reads only the LFs and considers the CRs whitespace ? :P
20130411 00:20:06< Upthorn> nah, I figured out the problem. had to add ssh-dss and my username
20130411 00:20:52< anonymissimus> Ivanovic: it would have been better if you had put a "blue" and "red" day like for the first move, this is a bit confusing
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20130411 00:21:52< shadowm> Ivanovic: The status is that his machine broke because of a software upgrade, so it might take a little longer.
20130411 00:21:57< anonymissimus> I wonder how things are with the line endings now; the svn properties no longer work in any way probably...so people on windows may commit CRLF line endings ?
20130411 00:22:49< anonymissimus> I have my git set to use only LFs however
20130411 00:30:03< Upthorn> phew, that initial git clone is going to take forever
20130411 00:30:48< Upthorn> 20% = 740 MiB
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20130411 02:11:54< nurupo> so, has wesnoth finally moved to the github?
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20130411 02:27:32< shadowm> nurupo: Not yet.
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20130411 02:38:02< nurupo> also, does somebody know what is the length limit on `speaker` and `message` std::strings in in-game messages? i'm particulary interested in `game_display::add_chat_message()`
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20130411 02:40:04< nurupo> i have implemented tray-popup notifications for windows, but there are length limitations of a message that can be shown in the notification. 64-char c-string for the title and 256-char c-string for the actual message
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20130411 09:02:49< zlv> Hi
20130411 09:04:41< zlv> Is implemetion of 'total defence' from SummerOfCodeIdeas page very hard to develop?
20130411 09:10:58< zlv> That's how I understand it: there are some defend races (like elves or humans), and aggressors (north people, dragons). Defend races should earn more experience. They should wait until few units get level up. And then attack.
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20130411 09:20:18< ancestral> zlv: Crab is probably who you want to talk to. Some parts of the night can be after hours for many people, so you may not get a reply right away
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20130411 09:21:02< Zonaz> Hi people!
20130411 09:22:17< Upthorn> okay, so I'm trying to run wesnoth from trunk source
20130411 09:22:45< Upthorn> and I get an immediate close with "no default gui defined"
20130411 09:23:49< Upthorn> request advisement.
20130411 09:24:58< zlv> ancestral: I have a middle of the day. What is his timezone?
20130411 09:25:43< ancestral> Uhhh… probably a dev around here would have a better idea. I'm not the best to ask, but iirc he's in Europe?
20130411 09:25:49< ancestral> Crab_
20130411 09:26:03< zookeeper> so who's broken the default starting gold of 100? sceptre of fire starts you off with 0 gold now.
20130411 09:27:27< Upthorn> err, I guess it's master branch, not trunk
20130411 09:27:42< ancestral> zlv, Zonaz: Maybe someone else here knows the best way to contact the team about GSoC. If anything, you can always create a forum account and PM folks like Crab, though I don't know if that's actually the best form of contact. I will let others field this…
20130411 09:29:29< Zonaz> I'll go do that :)
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20130411 09:31:32< Zonaz> zlv u here for the gsoc?
20130411 09:31:58< zlv> Zonaz: yes
20130411 09:32:46< ancestral> zlv, Zonaz: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_People_to_bug_on_IRC
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20130411 09:33:41< zlv> Crab_ is russian?
20130411 09:35:05< Zonaz> zlv: what project are you aiming for?=
20130411 09:36:26< zlv> Zonaz: I was thinking about one with AI strategy
20130411 09:38:14< Upthorn> nvm, fixed it by changing the debug path
20130411 09:38:24< Zonaz> zlv: you mean the total defence one?
20130411 09:39:25< Upthorn> crab_ is Ukrainian, I believe. At least, he was residing there a few years ago.
20130411 09:39:58< zlv> Zonaz: yes
20130411 09:40:32< Zonaz> argh argh argh :P
20130411 09:42:20< thunderstruck> vultraz, thanks for your suggestion yesterday on how to fix widescreen theme bug. I followed it and it worked.
20130411 09:44:15< vultraz> you're welcome :)
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20130411 10:25:57< Crab_> Zonaz: hello
20130411 10:30:41< zlv> Crab_: ?
20130411 10:33:03< Crab_> zlv: anything I can help you with? about your original 'is ... hard to develop?' question - yes, it has a reasonably hard research part. it's made easier if you have good C++ skills and experience playing wesnoth.
20130411 10:34:54< Crab_> zlv: albeit both are not strictly necessary and can be learned during the project
20130411 10:34:56< Crab_> (e.g. it's relatively easy to play wesnoth for a few hours, including some games vs humans, to get some experience, and having basic C++  skills might be enough to start, if you know how to ask good questions)
20130411 10:37:18< Crab_> zlv: your 'how I understand' quote looks partially wrong. any race can be on defense, especially during a wrong time of day.  yes, after defending you usually start attacking (once it's a good time of day to do so). but, defense is not just 'waiting until few units get level up', you need to make sure to do some actions like building a defensive line, retreating, etc.
20130411 10:38:10< zlv> Crab_: what's this aggression level (from config.cfg)? It's broken?
20130411 10:39:17< Crab_> zlv: it is broken by design. is is the main part of the formula used to determine if the attack is good to do, double value = chance_to_kill*target_value - avg_losses*(1.0-aggression);
20130411 10:39:30< zlv> It seems if I will do that I have to learn how to play much time, 'cause I played only for 1 week total
20130411 10:39:57< Crab_> zlv: with current AI, the only way to get a reasonably good behavior is to run it with high aggression, forcing it to attack even at 1:2 odds
20130411 10:39:58< zlv> Crab_: is it work for all summer?
20130411 10:40:23< Crab_> zlv: yes, that's would easily take all the summer time (even a half of a month in september, the dates are different this year)
20130411 10:40:46< zlv> seems easier, maybe I wrong
20130411 10:41:00< Crab_> zlv: you're welcome to show us that it is easy
20130411 10:41:20< Crab_> zlv: (continuing the problem description) and making AI attack at 1:2 odds makes it only fair when the AI has 2:1 gold.
20130411 10:41:53< Crab_> zlv: so, making AI able to run fine without doing those suicidal attacks would dramatically increase it's skill level.
20130411 10:42:03< zlv> what is a best way to learn play agains AI? Or like AI?
20130411 10:42:36< Crab_> zlv: vs humans and vs ai are totally different, you should try both. you can play with a friend, for example
20130411 10:42:48< Crab_> zlv: but playing vs AI is important to see it's problems.
20130411 10:43:36< Crab_> (or there's a MP server we have...)
20130411 10:44:32< zlv> Crab_: what's MP?
20130411 10:44:40< Crab_> multiplayer
20130411 10:44:55< zlv> ah, yes, I played there
20130411 10:44:59< zlv> always failed
20130411 10:45:07< Zonaz> oh Hi crab_
20130411 10:46:01< Zonaz> I'm also interested in the AI: Implement a 'total defense' strategy project
20130411 10:46:21< Crab_> Zonaz: I've got your forum PM, yes. A good read would be a http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WhyWritingAWesnothAIIsHard - that's a comparison of wesnoth with chess
20130411 10:46:35< Zonaz> thanks¨
20130411 10:46:51< Crab_> Zonaz: have you played wesnoth?
20130411 10:47:52< Crab_> Zonaz: (if no, it would make sense for you to play a little, first, vs AI,   before reading any explanations on what the problem that we want to solve is)
20130411 10:48:26< Zonaz> yes
20130411 10:48:39< Zonaz> some 50 hours or so of wesnoth
20130411 10:48:52< Crab_> great
20130411 10:48:55< Zonaz> and I've played vs AI
20130411 10:49:02< Zonaz> watched aggresion
20130411 10:49:25< Zonaz> and the only way for it to ahve a chance vs me is when I give it a high aggression paired with a good aggressive race
20130411 10:49:29< Zonaz> have*
20130411 10:49:40< Crab_> Zonaz: then, the problem is that the AI cannot 'protect' its units when attacking. So, it has a huge problem unless it's doing a all-out-attack.
20130411 10:50:02< Zonaz> Ah well, we could fix the attack I believe
20130411 10:50:03< Crab_> Zonaz: because in an all-out-attack it's not important to protect its units.
20130411 10:50:15< Zonaz> but it's mainly lacking in backcapping, repositioning, rotation
20130411 10:50:17< Zonaz> and so on
20130411 10:50:25< zlv> other 2 ideas on AI seems interesting too
20130411 10:50:36< Crab_> Zonaz: well, if we fix it by lowering aggression, AI starts to attack with best attacks, and does nothing good with other units.
20130411 10:50:56< Zonaz> that's why we need it to understand how to calculate it's fronts
20130411 10:50:58< zlv> Crab_, who's mentor on this ideas?
20130411 10:50:59< Crab_> Zonaz: but it'd made more sense for it to 'protect' it's units, do the rotation/repositioning/defense lines.
20130411 10:51:03< Crab_> zlv: me
20130411 10:51:25< Crab_> zlv: for addon server the main person to ask is Mordante, for other ideas it's me.
20130411 10:51:33< Crab_> zlv: final mentors might be different.
20130411 10:51:45< zlv> Crab_: what languages do you know?
20130411 10:52:09< Zonaz> I mean I can hold up the AI with a glider on one front wile advancing 50-60 gold on another, the AI has no concept of that I beilieve
20130411 10:52:17< Crab_> zlv: ukrainian, russian, english. a bit of polish and french. a tiny bit of german.
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20130411 10:52:41< Zonaz> If we can get it to abuse the current front lines the fights would have a little less impact on AI skill and would increase the AI potential
20130411 10:52:46< zlv> I'm from Tomsk, Sibiria
20130411 10:52:48< Crab_> Zonaz: yes, having some concept of 'front' would help. then the AI would be able to push without doing suicidal attacks
20130411 10:54:01< Zonaz> Even thought the answers and responses the AI has to calculate I don't believe it has to calculate them, too  deep if we just give it a concept of a "front"
20130411 10:54:12< zlv> Crab_ : can mentor take one student? Or can it be more then 1?
20130411 10:54:51< Crab_> zlv: can be more. read http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2013/04/%23wesnoth-dev.2013-04-10.log starting from 15:35
20130411 10:56:24< Zonaz> Even though a chess computer might have a stable set of rules without any random calculations and a limited board and possibilites. I think that we could take some use of it's thought process
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20130411 10:56:42< kosmos> hi everyone
20130411 10:57:17< Zonaz> It runs through some million moves calculates each response, and it's response and then compares it's "position" if it recongnizes it self ahead, it has computed it to be a good move
20130411 10:57:44< Zonaz> i'm guessing the Wesnoth AI is much harder to do something similiar to 
20130411 10:58:03< Crab_> kosmos: hi
20130411 10:58:11< kosmos> the documentation says, You need to have boost >= 1.36
20130411 10:58:35< Zonaz> but I believe it be possible. 
20130411 10:58:36< kosmos> If I install a last version, it will wotk ?
20130411 10:58:54< Crab_> Zonaz: wesnoth AI already burns cycles on some evaluations, so it's totally possible to check a lot of positions if you restrict it somehow to make it fast enough
20130411 10:59:13< Crab_> kosmos: yes
20130411 10:59:23< Zonaz> Crab_ Yeah...
20130411 10:59:29< kosmos> thx
20130411 10:59:59< Zonaz> I'm currently not sure of how to apply such a framework to an AI that calculates a flexible game such as this
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20130411 11:00:19< Zonaz> I'll probably have to learn more wesnoth in order to break it down
20130411 11:01:12< Crab_> Zonaz: you can try checking what mattsc did in his 'defend the pass' demo ( Bottleneck Defense)  https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/micro_ais/scenarios/bottleneck-defense.cfg
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20130411 11:04:09< Crab_> kosmos: just note that, if you're about compilation, you need the headers, not just the libraries (e.g. -devel packages )
20130411 11:04:52< kosmos> I see, only headers
20130411 11:05:36-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 172 bugs, 333 feature requests, 21 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130411 11:07:48< Crab_> not "only", you would still need the libraries even though they're not linked in statically.
20130411 11:09:19< Zonaz> Crab_: But as far as I can see he only specified a formation to apply in that pass that is optimal to defend with.
20130411 11:10:54< Crab_> Zonaz: not only, there's some bits of code involved ( https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/micro_ais/ais/mai_bottleneck_defense_engine.lua ) to make it work
20130411 11:12:06< Crab_> Zonaz: I'm referring to it as an example of how to control AI behavior, in a very constrained situation, to make it defend better.
20130411 11:14:21< Zonaz> Crab_: yeah, I'm reading now so gimme a few :)
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20130411 11:28:34< Zonaz> Crab_: so by creating a map container for each unit type and let them be sorted by rating that's based on the best position for that unit type. He gives the AI a sense of where he needs to go
20130411 11:28:37< Zonaz> Looks nice
20130411 11:28:52< Crab_> all kinds of '
20130411 11:29:17< Crab_> ... of 'ratings' usually make it possible to check multiple positions quite cheaply
20130411 11:29:31< Crab_> since the details are hidden behind a number
20130411 11:29:37< Zonaz> yeah
20130411 11:30:38< Zonaz> Hmm...
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20130411 11:32:23< Zonaz> I'm thinking that something like that could be possible, but might limit and reduce some of the details since we're limiting the AI to think in a specific set of unittypes
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20130411 11:33:49< Zonaz> ah well not "details" perhaps the AI mindset is a more viable phrase
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20130411 11:40:23< zlv> What about "AI: Improve configuration and behavior in mainline campaigns". Which problems take place in campaigns?
20130411 11:47:47< zookeeper> i presume the point is to use the new AI features to improve AI behaviour in mainline campaigns on a per-scenario basis
20130411 11:48:42< zookeeper> since about 99% of mainline campaign scenarios do _not_ yet make use of the new features, there's plenty of work to be done in that regard
20130411 11:49:10< zlv> what do you mean by new features?
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20130411 11:52:37< zookeeper> zlv, all the new micro AI stuff that's been going on. i don't know if/where there is a wiki page or a forum thread explaining them...
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20130411 12:17:48< Zonaz> Crab_: when do the applications for students to gsoc start?
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20130411 12:27:40< Crab_> Zonaz: google application period: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events/google/gsoc   -   2013  April 22   19:00 UTC Student application period opens.  -  May 3   19:00 UTC   Student application deadline.
20130411 12:27:40< Zonaz> So doxygen generates an UML tree for the file you tell it to document?
20130411 12:28:18< Crab_> Zonaz: but, in a broader sense of "students trying to get in", it is 8 April - 27 May
20130411 12:28:40< Zonaz> Ok, so I guess that's what I'm doing right now?
20130411 12:30:18< Crab_> yes
20130411 12:32:22< Zonaz> And the previous question about doxygen. So I'm guessing I only need to do the comments in "doxygenstyle" and not both.
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20130411 12:37:02< Crab_> Zonaz: I don't know exactly (the reason being that I don't like comments in the code that much - usually comments are a sign that the code is doing something that needs explaining, and it's better to change the code instead)
20130411 12:37:24< Crab_> Zonaz: so I tend not to use doxygen. the usual rule when doing any commenting/changes is to 'keep local style'
20130411 12:37:32< Zonaz> Crab_: ok that's some new insight into comments
20130411 12:37:57< Zonaz> I'm looking at the AI/goal atm
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20130411 12:39:22< Crab_> Zonaz: it's not that comments are always bad, but, for a small example,  "double sqrt(double number); // number must be positive " can be worse than  "int sqrt(double positive_number);"
20130411 12:40:01< Zonaz> yeah, I personally try to make my data names make sense but sometimes I just fail miserably
20130411 12:40:42< Crab_> happens. that's why it is usually a good idea to have someone else review your every change, just to make sure you haven't accidentally messed up with something, names or things.
20130411 12:41:05< Crab_> and some companies enforce this 'review' rule, and it usually works great.
20130411 12:41:14< Zonaz> Crab_: Sounds good 
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20130411 12:54:48< zlv> Who's fendin from there (1), he's not there: (2)
20130411 12:54:48< zlv> 1) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_AI_Recruitment_2013
20130411 12:54:48< zlv> 2) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_People_to_bug_on_IRC
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20130411 13:26:57< AI0867> 02:40 < nurupo> i have implemented tray-popup notifications for windows, but there are length limitations of a message that can be shown in the notification. 64-char  c-string for the title and 256-char c-string for the actual message <-- sounds like you should truncate things. There are no real limits on message length. (and for [message], the speaker's name is used, not the string speaker itself (unless it's the narrator))
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20130411 13:51:10< kosmos> I have just compiled wesnoth-1.10.6, and after that i got Segmentation fault. it was under mac os 
20130411 13:52:41< vultraz> kosmos: os x 10.7.x?
20130411 13:52:59< kosmos> yep 10.7.5
20130411 13:53:22< vultraz> there are some problems with compiling on 10.7, it seems
20130411 13:53:33< vultraz> Don't know if they were ever fixed
20130411 13:53:37< kosmos> but with source code from repository everything is ok
20130411 13:54:53< vultraz> interesting....
20130411 13:55:13< vultraz> well, talk to Alarantalara when he gets back
20130411 13:55:24< kosmos> today I could download source code from repository, but yesterday it was ……..
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20130411 16:22:47< dragos> Crab___: Hello. I've just sent you an email about my progress
20130411 16:23:17< Crab___> dragos: hello. great, I'll take a look (but not immediately now, slightly later)
20130411 16:24:17< dragos> Crab___: Ok :), in the meantime I'll just continue reading/getting familiar with the code-base
20130411 16:24:29< fendrin> LordBob-desk: hi
20130411 16:24:35< fendrin> hi Crab___
20130411 16:24:41< Crab___> fendrin: hi
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20130411 16:33:39< LordBob-desk> Hi fendrin
20130411 16:33:55< fendrin> LordBob-desk: I have a first screenshot ready, right now.
20130411 16:34:08< LordBob-desk> Ah, great. I was about to ask :)
20130411 16:34:17< LordBob-desk> Lemme see 
20130411 16:35:38< fendrin> LordBob-desk: http://imagebin.org/253619
20130411 16:35:53< mattsc> Hey Crab___: funny thing I just mentioned over in the other forum:
20130411 16:36:27< mattsc> I accidentally removed most of the Freelands Rush AI's attacks a few weeks ago and it was still winning against the RCA AI...
20130411 16:36:41< LordBob-desk> fandrin: I'm surprised by the whiter corners. They ought to bee transparent 
20130411 16:36:52< mattsc> (I'd been testing in nogui mode only, so I hadn't noticed until this morning)
20130411 16:36:52< LordBob-desk> err, fendrin, I meant
20130411 16:37:19< fendrin> LordBob-desk: My irc client supports auto completion of the chaters' names.
20130411 16:37:50< mattsc> Crab___: on a more serious note, do you know how close the external AIs are to being done?
20130411 16:37:53< fendrin> LordBob-desk: It's done with the tabulator key.
20130411 16:38:34< LordBob-desk> fendrin: good to know
20130411 16:38:35< mattsc> s/external AIs/external CAs
20130411 16:38:48< fendrin> LordBob-desk: The southwest corner is different.
20130411 16:38:59< mattsc> I need to do something about making different Micro AIs being usable together and extCAs would make that trivial, but there are other options.
20130411 16:39:09< fendrin> LordBob-desk: It is doing well while the others are to bright, I guess. Right?
20130411 16:39:54< LordBob-desk> fendrin: not quite. All three corners are meant to have 3 pixels at 0% opacity, which somehow are replaced with pure white here
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20130411 16:40:32< fendrin> LordBob-desk: Okay, let me see.
20130411 16:42:19< LordBob-desk> fendrin: there might not be exactly 0% opacity in the corners; too low to notice on my screen, but enough to mess up the merge ?
20130411 16:42:43< fendrin> LordBob-desk: Note that items like "only a few mushrooms" are much better to read with the blue background.
20130411 16:43:47< LordBob-desk> fendrin: yeah, about that background, when last we'd talked I thought we weren't going to use the button base in the "normal" state. Would you have an alternate screenshot to compare ?
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20130411 16:46:24< fendrin> LordBob-desk: http://imagebin.org/253622 
20130411 16:46:34< fendrin> fixed the transparency.
20130411 16:46:51< LordBob-desk> fendrin: much better :D
20130411 16:47:11< LordBob-desk> and I see the active tile
20130411 16:48:21< fendrin> LordBob-desk: Yeah, screenshoting a touched one is difficult with my tool :-)
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20130411 16:49:34< LordBob-desk> fendrin: too bad. Could you also make a screenshot without the button base for "normal" state ?
20130411 16:50:10< fendrin> fendrin: Yes, the change is compiling right now.
20130411 16:50:42< LordBob-desk> fendrin: thanks. Vultraz was arguing the other day that buttons everywhere made the palette cluttered, so I'd like to compare the two options
20130411 16:51:32< vultraz> LordBob-desk, fendrin: actually, they look quite good in the current screenshot
20130411 16:51:44< vultraz> Maybe it was just the mockup that was bad
20130411 16:51:53< LordBob-desk> Ah, that's sweet to her :D
20130411 16:51:58< LordBob-desk> *hear
20130411 16:51:59< fendrin> LordBob-desk, vultraz: I do not really show you this screenshot. It looks exactly like in the old editor.
20130411 16:52:10< LordBob-desk> fendrin: ok
20130411 16:53:06< fendrin> Well, the old one features only 3 terrains per row.
20130411 16:53:15< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: it must have felt cluttered because in the mock up there were 12 pressed tiles, which would never't happen with the real thing
20130411 16:53:53< vultraz> LordBob-desk: also because in the mockup, there was no space between buttons
20130411 16:55:39< fendrin> LordBob-desk: But there are bad news on another front. The same palette in the editor is also used to place units, with another tool selected.
20130411 16:55:41< LordBob-desk> vultraz: You're right. I had left 1 pixel between each button, based on the old layout.
20130411 16:55:53< vultraz> fendrin: may I make a suggestion for the order the toolkit buttons appear?
20130411 16:56:05< fendrin> vultraz: sure
20130411 16:56:10< LordBob-desk> fendrin: and I take it the buttons don't work anymore, this time ?
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20130411 16:56:42< fendrin> LordBob-desk: The problem is that scaling down works well with terrain, but it doesn't with units.
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20130411 16:57:22< LordBob-desk> fendrin: if it's only a matter of making larger buttons, it should be quick enough
20130411 16:57:23< fendrin> LordBob-desk: Thus the frames for the units would need to be in 72+2.
20130411 16:57:55< fendrin> Maybe 72+3, the border can grow with the rest.
20130411 16:58:10< vultraz> Ok (left to right), ROW 1: paintbrush, bucket fill, starting loc, pipette, select. ROW 2: unit, village, label, soundsource, item
20130411 16:58:15< Crab___> mattsc: I don' t know how close they are, but that part doesn't seem like a big chunk of coding. So, I'll try to take a look today and get back to you.
20130411 16:59:06< mattsc> Crab___: the basic functionality of extCAs is working, but there are 2 things that are needed to make them useful:
20130411 16:59:08< vultraz> that would keep similarly grouped functions together (eg, row 1 would be drawing tools, and row two would be wml goodies) 
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20130411 16:59:33< mattsc> The existence of a persistent variable across different CAs, and them accepting parameters in the call
20130411 16:59:49< fendrin> vultraz: unit and village both depend on defined sides. Thus they are greyed out in sync.
20130411 17:00:13< fendrin> I thought this would be better grouped in a column.
20130411 17:00:28< mattsc> Nephro was working on this, but I have no idea if there's some trivial work left, or if it's more involved than that
20130411 17:00:42< vultraz> I think it would serve just as well were they next to each other
20130411 17:01:04< vultraz> plus the added consistency of button function groupings
20130411 17:01:20< Crab___> trivial enough, there's a natural place to hold those variables
20130411 17:01:24< Crab___> the RCA stage itself
20130411 17:01:27< Crab___> it's shared for all CAs
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20130411 17:02:38< fendrin> vultraz: Hmmm, maybe the situation changes with the introduction of the new buttons for them.
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20130411 17:02:46< vultraz> new button styles?
20130411 17:02:49< fendrin> vultraz: And we can group them differently, in 2x2 = 4 groups for example.
20130411 17:03:03< LordBob-desk> Fendrin: assuming that the code is already written, the easiest would be for you to check the best possible size by taking a few screenshots with flat coloured squares as button base.
20130411 17:03:11< fendrin> vultraz: Weren't you going to transplant the tool buttons into the bases LordBob-desk provided?
20130411 17:03:36< vultraz> oh, yeah, I need to find my xcfs
20130411 17:03:54< vultraz> I'm not 100% sure all of them will cleanly render, though
20130411 17:03:57< LordBob-desk> ...And I think  I need to take care of some of those icons
20130411 17:04:00< vultraz> we only have layers for some of them
20130411 17:04:31< vultraz> Damn those semi-transparent pixels x_x
20130411 17:05:25< vultraz> fendrin: do you plan on making that group button clickable?
20130411 17:06:12< vultraz> I was thinking you could make that clickable, and just have a label next to it with the group name, instead of 2 buttons, only one of which can actually be clicked
20130411 17:06:28< fendrin> vultraz: right
20130411 17:07:04< LordBob-desk> fendrin, vultraz: I must be on my way now. I probably won't log again back tonight, so just drop a word on the forums with the final dimensions (+ states description) for the unit button. (and also the list of required tool icons)
20130411 17:07:26< fendrin> vultraz: shadowm didn't like it that way for a reason I don't remember. But I can give it another try.
20130411 17:07:27< vultraz> LordBob-desk: unit button?
20130411 17:07:39< fendrin> LordBob-desk: Okay :-)
20130411 17:07:51< LordBob-desk> Vultraz: the larger button fendrin mentionned just now
20130411 17:07:56< LordBob-desk> Later guys
20130411 17:08:00< fendrin> bye
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20130411 17:08:04< vultraz> cya
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20130411 17:50:47< grath> Is anyone in here able to talk to me about the google summer of code?
20130411 17:51:14< PL_kolek> I am, but I want to participate ;)
20130411 17:51:28< grath> I am a sophomore Computer Science student and have a couple questions.
20130411 17:51:50< grath> PL_kolek are you a student?
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20130411 17:52:45< PL_kolek_> uh, sorry, some error in my connection
20130411 17:52:56< grath> are you a student?
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20130411 17:53:11< PL_kolek_> yep. I am tring GSoC for the first time
20130411 17:53:19< grath> The Ideas listed on their page seemed pretty advanced..
20130411 17:53:31< grath> did you get the same feeling?
20130411 17:53:57< PL_kolek_> Yes, but its for 3 months so it's probably doable :)
20130411 17:54:27< PL_kolek_> The one with verifying and updating campaigns seems the easiest. But for me the defensive AI is the most interesting
20130411 17:54:43< grath> what programming background do you have?
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20130411 17:54:56< grath> I have only used python and c++
20130411 17:55:22< grath> but we have had a few rather large projects, our final is a roguelike game that is pretty intense,,.
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20130411 17:55:45< PL_kolek_> quit? Am I still here?
20130411 17:55:56< grath> yer here
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20130411 17:56:23< PL_kolek_> ok thx ;)
20130411 17:56:25< grath> I would like to hear from a student who has participated before. 
20130411 17:56:57< grath> this program sounds awesome though, hopefully I won't be waiting tables this summer and get to code.
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20130411 17:57:23< PL_kolek_> I used java and C++ for my programming courses. Currently I'm writing platformer game in C++
20130411 17:57:37< PL_kolek_> But i haven't worked in any company though...
20130411 17:58:07< PL_kolek_> Yep, working on my favourite turn-based strategy game seems fantastic :D
20130411 17:59:59< grath> I am also making a platformer in my spare time with c++ and allegro in linux
20130411 18:00:02< grath> :)
20130411 18:00:06< PL_kolek_> Have looked into wesnoth code yet?
20130411 18:00:19< grath> no but I just downloaded the game on fuduntu I am going to play it
20130411 18:00:36< grath> I have heard of it a bunch before but never played it, I guess I need to look at the code too :)
20130411 18:00:56< PL_kolek_> BTW where are you from?
20130411 18:01:10< grath> I am from NC USA but I am going to school in WV
20130411 18:01:25< grath> Concord University Athens West Virginia
20130411 18:01:48< grath> Actually was raised in Canada lol I am a duel citizen
20130411 18:01:58< PL_kolek_> I'm from Poland, probably the university won't tell mu much
20130411 18:04:42< grath> I am going to hang around this channel and hopefully someone from the Wesnoth team can give us a little info 
20130411 18:05:20< PL_kolek_> So we'll both do the same
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20130411 18:21:46< mattsc> grath, PL_kolek_: you generally get people to reply more easily if you ask specific questions rather than a general "can somebody talk to me about XXX".
20130411 18:22:25< mattsc> For example, I don't think that I have answers to your questions, so I won't reply to the general inquiry.  However, if I knew the actual question, that might be different.
20130411 18:22:54< mattsc> Also, lots of questions about GSoC have already been asked here over the last few days.  You might want to check out the IRC logs.
20130411 18:23:17< grath> thank you mattsc
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20130411 18:47:16< PL_kolek> I have two questions: one about EasyCoding task, and second about defensive AI.
20130411 18:48:36< PL_kolek> Firstly, I'd like to learn the code a little and it's best to learn it by coding. There is an assignment to add some AI actions like sending chat message to player.
20130411 18:49:10< PL_kolek> I'm reading through the wikis but I can't find any information where in the code the LUA actions are
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20130411 18:58:49< PL_kolek> Secondly, I guess the idea behind defensive AI is to modify candidate actions evaluation to take into account possible enemy response in the next turn. Current AI, as I read, evaluates possible actions (presently by calculating expected damage done and taken) and chooses "the best" one. But if we want to make it more defensive, shouldn't it think about the other possible moves "together", like "That attack is better, because not
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20130411 19:09:49< mattsc> PL_kolek: the EasyCoding ideas are and old list and not up to date for the most part AFAIK
20130411 19:10:23< mattsc> There is also this list of Possibly Easy Coding AI ideas: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior#Ideas_for_Potentially_Easy_AI_Patches
20130411 19:10:38< PL_kolek> Is it upd to date?
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20130411 19:10:54< mattsc> but I do not know how easy or hard those are.  I do know that some of them are _not_ easy, but others might be.
20130411 19:11:02< mattsc> Yes, I just updated it a few days ago.
20130411 19:11:32< PL_kolek> OK, and do you know where to look for some easy tasks to begin working with this code?
20130411 19:12:24< mattsc> The least two in that AI list _might_ be easy, but you might want to wait for Crab_ to be back to confirm that.
20130411 19:13:00< mattsc> The generally recommended procedure is to go into the Wesnoth bug tracker and find something there.  There's always something easy in there, you just need to identify it (which might not be easy)
20130411 19:13:15< mattsc> https://gna.org/bugs/?group=wesnoth
20130411 19:13:55< PL_kolek> Thank you!
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20130411 19:14:48< mattsc> And the Lua AI actions are coded in src/ai/lua/, I think
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20130411 19:16:28< mattsc> PL_kolek: As for your question on the "total defense" GSoC project, have you read the responses Crab_ has given to that to other students over the last 2 or 3 days?
20130411 19:18:31< PL_kolek> I looked into them, read the "Why Wesnoth AI is hard" ;)
20130411 19:20:23< mattsc> PL_kolek: okay, good.  If you have follow-up questions, I suggest that you wait around for Crab_ to be back.  He's the mentor for those tasks and will know what's going on.
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20130411 19:21:08< mattsc> If you want more general reading, AI topics are usually discussed in the Coder's Corner forum.
20130411 19:21:32< mattsc> Also: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior (slightly out of date, but not too badly)
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20130411 19:22:16< PL_kolek> Yes, I've seen this too. Thank you very much for your help. I'll spend a lot of time reading everything right now :)
20130411 19:22:44< mattsc> And, if you want to see some of the current work going on with different AI strategies (in Lua AI, not with the mainline code), you can see what some of us are doing in the AI-demos add-on.
20130411 19:23:12< mattsc> It's not the same as what you'd need for the GSoC tasks, but some of the ideas might be helpful.
20130411 19:24:23< mattsc> Don't use the version from the add-ons server though, it's not been updated in a while.  The current version is here: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20130411 19:24:37< mattsc> Shameless self-advertising.  :P
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20130411 19:35:42< alushnikov> Hey guys, you've been referencing visual studio 2010 in compiling manual. Thought there's no VC10 folder in projectfiles. Where can i find it?
20130411 19:36:07< alushnikov> I've got some strange issues compiling and running for msvcr90.
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20130411 20:22:28< flix> how can I register my sourceforge account "as part of the Wesnoth group" as described in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothRepository#Commit_access ?
20130411 20:25:38< vultraz> flix: we're moving to GitHub, talk to AI0867 when he returns
20130411 20:26:12< flix> vultraz: thanks
20130411 20:26:32< vultraz> no prob
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--- Log opened Thu Apr 11 21:00:37 2013
20130411 21:01:47-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130411 21:01:47-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 172 bugs, 333 feature requests, 21 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130411 21:01:47-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@asteria.debian.or.at] [Thu Apr 11 11:05:36 2013]
20130411 21:01:47[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20130411 21:01:47[ [Relic]        ] [ ettin      ] [ mattsc    ] [ ThePawnBreak ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ _8680_         ] [ exciton    ] [ melinath  ] [ thunderstruck] 
20130411 21:01:47[ AI0867         ] [ fendrin    ] [ mjs-de    ] [ timotei      ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ Alarantalara   ] [ flix       ] [ molgrum   ] [ ToBeFree     ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ Anakonda       ] [ freim      ] [ Mr_FauxPas] [ Trademark    ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ ancestral      ] [ Guest58304 ] [ new_player] [ Upth         ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ apoi           ] [ happygrue  ] [ noy       ] [ Upthorn      ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ balrog         ] [ Ingmar     ] [ nurupo    ] [ uzyszkodnik  ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ bderooms       ] [ isaac      ] [ PL_kolek  ] [ vernon       ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ bjacob_        ] [ Ivanovic   ] [ prkc      ] [ viku         ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ bumbadadabum   ] [ iwaim      ] [ rei4dan   ] [ vultraz      ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ cjhopman__     ] [ janebot    ] [ Rhonda    ] [ wesbot       ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ crimson_penguin] [ knotwork   ] [ Samual    ] [ witness      ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ DHost          ] [ lipkab     ] [ shadowm   ] [ yann         ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ ejls           ] [ lobby      ] [ shikadibot] [ Zonaz        ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ elias          ] [ loonybot   ] [ skyfaller ] [ zookeeper    ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ enchilado      ] [ loonycyborg] [ Smar      ] [ {V}          ] 
20130411 21:01:47[ Espreon        ] [ LordNasty  ] [ stikonas  ] 
20130411 21:01:47-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 71 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 71 normal]
20130411 21:01:53-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20130411 21:56:44< nurupo> AI0867: sounds like you should truncate things. There are no real limits on message length. (and for [message], the speaker's name is used, not the string speaker itself (unless it's the narrator)) <-- yeah, truncation. i don't really get what you are saying about speaker. doesn't `std::string& speaker` contain the name of the onr who sent `std::string& message`?
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20130411 22:00:21< AI0867> I have no idea which part of the C++ you are referring to, but the WML tag [message] has a 'speaker' key that is used to identify which unit (or the narrator) is speaking
20130411 22:00:31< AI0867> it is then the unit's name that is displayed
20130411 22:00:57< AI0867> speaker can be 'unit' or the like
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20130411 22:03:38< nurupo> oh, i see
20130411 22:04:10< nurupo> i actually wrote to what part i was reffering to... let me scroll the log :)
20130411 22:04:46< nurupo> <nurupo_> also, does somebody know what is the length limit on `speaker` and `message` std::strings in in-game messages? i'm particulary interested in `game_display::add_chat_message()`
20130411 22:05:55< nurupo> it's something like `game_display::add_chat_message(const std::string&speaker, const std::string& message)`
20130411 22:06:22< nurupo> anyway, not i know why your answer didn't make sence, you were reffering to WML
20130411 22:06:25< nurupo> *now
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20130411 22:11:20< anonymissimus> alushnikov: the guide here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows has been updated a bit; vc9 is somewhat easier than vc10
20130411 22:11:50< anonymissimus> nurupo: I've added the links to your packages to the above guide; I assume you couldn't since wiki registration as disabled
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20130411 22:27:49< nurupo> anonymissimus: is registration now open?
20130411 22:31:04< Mr_FauxPas> i think it is, i've registered before yesterday
20130411 22:31:10< nurupo> anonymissimus: and can you reupload those files to wesnoth's sourceforge or something, because if i delete them in my folder, the dropbox will sync with the changes and delete them too, so they won't be accesable
20130411 22:32:01< nurupo> that's actually what i wanted you to do in first place, since i don't have access to anything and thought that you do
20130411 22:32:17< nurupo> Mr_FauxPas: okays
20130411 22:32:31< PL_kolek> What's the difference between start_gold and gold in scenario config?
20130411 22:33:29< PL_kolek> I mean, I'm working on https://gna.org/bugs/?20734 and I encountered the variable start_gold in the code which I think isn't used anywhere
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20130411 22:39:52< nurupo> shadowm: can you do some timetraveling sql magic and change my forum nickname? :)
20130411 22:41:34< nurupo> oh, so i actually can register several accounts on one email
20130411 22:42:39< flix1> AI0867, or_someone_else: Is the git repo at sourceforge still the best place to clone the source from? Like described in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothRepository 
20130411 22:42:57< nurupo> shadowm: disregard the timetraveling sql magic quest :)
20130411 22:45:21< PL_kolek> flix1: I cloned it from there, why do you think it's not the best place?
20130411 22:45:53< PL_kolek> (I'm starting wesnoth coding, so don't take my answers as truth ;))
20130411 22:46:56< flix1> PL_kolek: because people told me about a github repo and that they want to move to there ("work in progress")
20130411 22:47:55< flix1> I just want to make sure because I've currently a Download Limit of 24GB / month -.-
20130411 22:48:48< PL_kolek> Then you must wait for somebody who knows more than I do
20130411 22:53:44< flix1> PL_kolek: Do you know big the repo is? / How many Bytes where transmitted while cloning?
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20130411 22:56:29< lipkab> flix1: Approximately 1.6 GiB.
20130411 22:56:49< flix1> lipkab: thanks
20130411 22:58:25< AI0867> flix1: well, the conversion should be done in a few days
20130411 22:58:52< AI0867> and unfortunately, the old repo will be invalidated, due to history rewrites
20130411 22:59:32< AI0867> as of right now, the sourceforge git repo is still the most recent though
20130411 23:01:31< anonymissimus> PL_kolek: "difference between start_gold and gold" I think none
20130411 23:02:08< PL_kolek> Then the best thing to do is cut away start_gold entirely from the source?
20130411 23:02:12< alushnikov> AI0867: >> and unfortunately, the old repo will be invalidated, due to history rewrites ?? what do you mean?
20130411 23:02:38< anonymissimus> I only know of [side]gold=, and to that gold usually some gold from teh previous scenario gets added
20130411 23:02:44< AI0867> well, we moved from svn to git a very short time ago
20130411 23:02:55< anonymissimus> but not in the first scenario of a acampaign of course
20130411 23:03:13< alushnikov> AI0867: you can save svn history. Simply convert svn repo to git repo
20130411 23:03:24< AI0867> and with the conversion, some commit messages were rewritten, two branches were merged into the master branch as directories, plus various other things
20130411 23:03:36< alushnikov> AI0867: aw ok. got it.
20130411 23:03:39< AI0867> and now we found that there were a few things that were missed/broken
20130411 23:04:07< flix1> AI0867: okay thanks, i'm cloning right now. Can I later just pull from the new repo and everything will be fine?
20130411 23:04:08< AI0867> one is the identity of an old dev, who did some work back in 2007
20130411 23:04:38< AI0867> flix1: you can, but someone already tested something like that. It will still be over 1 GiB
20130411 23:04:47< anonymissimus> PL_kolek: is "start_gold" only the name of a variable in the source or is it a wml key ?
20130411 23:05:12< AI0867> and you can't "just pull", as you can't fast-forward the master
20130411 23:05:36-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 173 bugs, 333 feature requests, 21 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130411 23:05:53< PL_kolek> I guess both, but it's not mentioned in the wiki about scenarioWML.
20130411 23:06:16< AI0867> there's the gold key in [scenario][side]
20130411 23:06:28< PL_kolek> Yes, but not start_gold
20130411 23:06:54< AI0867> but that is the gold you start with, though carryover can increase that
20130411 23:08:06< PL_kolek> And the bug https://gna.org/bugs/?20734 is in my opinion caused by setting start_gold to default (100) instead of gold=100.
20130411 23:09:34< anonymissimus> PL_kolek: well, start_gold seems to be a c++ variable and a wml key, but only in savefiles, not in scenario config
20130411 23:09:51< anonymissimus> and figuring out what it actually is is probably part of slving the bug
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20130411 23:11:44< PL_kolek> I will look into all occurences of that in the code. If they don't use in any serious way, is it correct to remove it, to prevent further confusion?
20130411 23:12:59< PL_kolek> Sorry for such questions, it's my first attempt in solving wesnoth's bug.
20130411 23:13:29< anonymissimus> judging from team::team_info::read() start_gold could be a key under which the engine saves a side's current gold in normal save files
20130411 23:15:00< anonymissimus> "normal" meaning saves other than start-of-scenario saves
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20130411 23:18:22< anonymissimus> PL_kolek: why sorry; this is a pretty typical question which arise when browsing the source
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20130411 23:23:34< mattsc> PL_kolek, anonymissimus: I don't know if this is the same thing, but if you look at the in-game status table, there's a column for both Gold and Start Gold (the latter is on the second page)
20130411 23:24:59< PL_kolek> I am currently looking at the code of this table, but I still have to see what this table is ;)
20130411 23:25:06< Mr_FauxPas> Maybe Gold is used for holding Start_gold + gold earned + gold from ealier scenarios ?
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20130411 23:26:14< mattsc> Well, gold should be current gold.  Start gold should be exactly what the name says.  That's how it should be, I think, I make no claims that that actually is the case...
20130411 23:27:18< Zonaz> couls someone link me to an updated "tutorial" on how to get a hold of a compileable version of the current revision?=
20130411 23:27:22< mattsc> anonymissimus: on a different topic, I forgot if I said this yesterday: I'll try to make sure that Micro AIs can be combined at will for 1.11.3, one way or the other.
20130411 23:27:22< Zonaz> could*
20130411 23:27:30< Zonaz> scratch compilable
20130411 23:27:49< PL_kolek> If you grep start_gold in the src dir, there is nearly nothing that makes use of that variable apart from setting it. I tried to set by hand to 100 in team::team_info::read(), the starting gold was still 0. After setting the "gold" variable to 100, it works.
20130411 23:28:22< Mr_FauxPas> Zonaz: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothRepository You need to know git tho'.
20130411 23:28:40< Zonaz> ok
20130411 23:28:44< mattsc> PL_kolek: it might simply be a variable for displaying that information in the Status table.
20130411 23:28:46< Zonaz> so that's the updated one?
20130411 23:28:51< Zonaz> I thought you moved to github?
20130411 23:29:01< PL_kolek> where is that status table in game?
20130411 23:29:14< mattsc> alt-s  (or from the menu)
20130411 23:29:32< Mr_FauxPas> AFAIK the move is still in progress Zonaz
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20130411 23:30:30< Zonaz> ok ok, so I guess I'll just pull later then
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20130411 23:30:45< mattsc> Zonaz: yes, as Mr_FauxPas says.  We're in the process of moving, but not done yet.
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20130411 23:32:04< PL_kolek> mattsc: WOW. That makes sense now. We set gold=start_gold on the beginning of the scenario, then add carryover or something, and remember the starting value for status table
20130411 23:32:11< anonymissimus> well, the start gold from the status table is the [side]gold= from the scenario config + any gold carried over
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20130411 23:32:36< anonymissimus> and the value does no longer change once the scenario progresses
20130411 23:32:45< anonymissimus> perhaps it's this, yes
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20130411 23:33:08< PL_kolek> I'll investigate it further, thank you all.
20130411 23:34:05< anonymissimus> the other gold (on the first page) is the current gold; one the first turn when nothing has been done yet it's the same as start gold
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20130411 23:44:49< Zonaz> how do I register on sourceforge as a part of the wesnoth group?
20130411 23:45:25< Mr_FauxPas> You need to get approved by devs, and you do so by trying to solve bugs/stuff
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20130411 23:47:33< Zonaz> So I guess I'l clone the current one and find the buglist and get cracking :)
20130411 23:47:59< Zonaz> read-only one I'm failing at brain at the moment
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 12 00:00:51 2013