--- Log opened Fri Apr 12 00:00:51 2013
20130412 00:01:29< Zonaz> Mr_FauxPas:I see that you also were brought here for gsoc
20130412 00:02:03< Mr_FauxPas> yep :P
20130412 00:03:45< Zonaz> Ah, well I'm guessing I won't be the one to be accepted. Since I must have chosen the most crowded project.
20130412 00:04:09< Zonaz> but I'll give it my best
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20130412 00:05:05< Mr_FauxPas> Dunno. I guess devs will mainly choose by skills/nice code presented in bugfixes, or these small task that they mentioned on wiki. Still, it's a lot of time till 3rd May.
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20130412 00:35:34< shadowm> nurupo: I could have changed your forum username if you wanted, that doesn't require any timetraveling sql magic.
20130412 00:36:19< shadowm> The fact that it's not a thing that users can do doesn't mean it's complicated for an admin. It's really just a click away.
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20130412 00:40:52< thunderstruck> shadowm, can you mark my forum account as gsoc? I'm thunderstruck there.
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20130412 00:46:21< shadowm> thunderstruck: Done.
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20130412 00:46:52< thunderstruck> shadowm, thanks.
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20130412 01:02:12< Zonaz> shadowm: could you add me to the gsoc applicant list?
20130412 01:02:18< Zonaz> going to bed now people
20130412 01:02:19< Zonaz> cya
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20130412 01:03:05< shadowm> You are making sure to make your wiki pages, right, people?
20130412 01:03:38< shadowm> I can't really tell because of all the spam we are getting.
20130412 01:05:19< shadowm> Zonaz: Added to the forums usergroup.
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20130412 03:09:19< kelpy> hello all
20130412 03:09:53< kelpy> any GSoC mentors active?
20130412 03:13:44< Upthorn> hrm. Trying to build wesnoth on windows, getting a bizarre issue where IMG_Load always returns NULL.
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20130412 03:14:20< Upthorn> I've verified that the files it is trying to load exist and are valid .png files
20130412 03:15:34< Upthorn> and IMG_Load is in SDL so I can't debug it properly
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20130412 03:48:40< mattsc> kelpy: I think the GSoC mentors are all in Europe, so not up at this time.
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20130412 03:49:15< mattsc> But you can ask you question here, and they'll reply when they are back.  They all read the logs.
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20130412 03:51:26< kelpy> cool, at the moment Id just like to know who the actual mentors are
20130412 03:51:58< kelpy> and also would love to get some estimate on how experienced they are looking for students to be.
20130412 03:52:33< nurupo> as much as possible, of course :)
20130412 03:53:10< kelpy> haha :)
20130412 03:54:27< kelpy> but still, minimum qualifications? if I can submit a patch from the "easy-coding" list, how much of a chance does that give me?
20130412 03:54:39< kelpy> etc.
20130412 03:55:05< mattsc> kelpy: I think there are only two official mentors this year, Crab_ and mordante.  But other people will help along the way.
20130412 03:55:12< kelpy> just want to know if Im looking at something way over my head
20130412 03:56:06< mattsc> There are no required qualifications (other than what Google requires).  What you should do is demonstrate that you can work with Wesnoth code (by submitting a couple patches) and put together a good proposal.,
20130412 03:56:31< kelpy> okay. that I can do.
20130412 03:57:07< kelpy> just wanted to make certain I wasnt going after a hotly contested position or anything.
20130412 03:57:10< mattsc> Also, go back through the IRC logs of the last 2 or 3 codes, lots of questions have been asked and answered there already that might give you an idea of what's expected.
20130412 03:57:29< kelpy> Ive been reading the logs and you all seem like a really great set of people
20130412 03:57:32< mattsc> For example, it was stated that the easy coding page is way out of date ...  :)
20130412 03:57:41< kelpy> oh
20130412 03:57:45< kelpy> lol
20130412 03:58:07< mattsc> Well, wait until you really get to know us   ;)
20130412 03:58:16< Tenoh> question... which channel should I go to to ask about help with my forum account?
20130412 03:58:58< mattsc> Tenoh: ask shadowm,.  Either here or by PM on the forum.
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20130412 03:59:11< Tenoh> thanks
20130412 03:59:36< mattsc> Or Gambit
20130412 03:59:37< shadowm> Tenoh: What's the problem?
20130412 04:01:01< nurupo> Upthorn: which compiler?
20130412 04:02:08< Tenoh> i registered for the forum but haven't gotten an activation email
20130412 04:02:27< shadowm> Tenoh: What's your account name?
20130412 04:02:34< Tenoh> tenoh
20130412 04:02:43< Tenoh> for both here and there
20130412 04:03:10< Upthorn> nurupo: msvc10
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20130412 04:03:55< shadowm> Tenoh: Could you check whether your provider is marking email from forums@wesnoth.org as spam?
20130412 04:04:05< shadowm> (Also known as "junk mail" by some providers.)
20130412 04:04:23< nurupo> Upthorn: make sure you copy the game folders into \Debug\ or \Release\ folder that vc10 created
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20130412 04:04:55< Upthorn> I set the runtime working folder to the root of my working copy
20130412 04:04:57< Tenoh> Shadown: if it is it would be going in the "junk" folder and no messages have shown up there so I'm assuming that isn't the case
20130412 04:04:58< nurupo> Upthorn: folders like "images", "sounds" and etc.
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20130412 04:05:07< nurupo> Upthorn: okay
20130412 04:05:19< Upthorn> I verified by debugging that it has the correct paths to images sounds etc
20130412 04:05:34< shadowm> Tenoh: It's shadowm with an em (or you could tab-complete), btw.
20130412 04:05:36< Upthorn> and is passing those to IMG_Load
20130412 04:05:54< Upthorn> but IMG_Load is returning NULL 100% of the time
20130412 04:06:00< shadowm> Tenoh: Okay, it's just that someone from the same provider seems unable to get their password reset email and I don't have any records of failure in that regards here, which is odd.
20130412 04:06:21< Upthorn> which I guess means I need to do something with my SDL.dll
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20130412 04:07:46< Upthorn> I just don't know what that something actually is
20130412 04:07:48< shadowm> Also, just tested sending emails from the forums, that works correctly.
20130412 04:07:49< nurupo> Upthorn: i have the same setup you do and don't experience any troubles in bilding and running the game in debug
20130412 04:08:02< nurupo> *building
20130412 04:08:12< shadowm> Tenoh: I have activated your account by hand in the meantime.
20130412 04:08:17< shadowm> You should be able to login now.
20130412 04:08:28< Tenoh> shadowm: ok thanks :)
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20130412 04:09:01< Upthorn> I could start running my lower level debugging tools on it
20130412 04:09:09< nurupo> Upthorn: did you use the dropbox link for VC10.zip from here http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows and did you follow the instructions for msvc2010?
20130412 04:09:17< Upthorn> nurupo: I did.
20130412 04:09:38< Upthorn> it would not even compile if I had not had all those dependencies set up according to those instructions
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20130412 04:13:19< nurupo> Upthorn: so, to be clear, the issue is that you can't run the game because IMG_Load returns null, which causes some troubles, am i right?
20130412 04:14:14< Upthorn> yes. It causes a button::error as soon as any scenario finishes loading
20130412 04:14:24< Upthorn> which then causes wesnoth to exit with a return code of 1
20130412 04:14:31< nurupo> oh, i see
20130412 04:15:36< Upthorn> if I comment out the line that throws the error, it instead crashes with a null pointer exception
20130412 04:19:55< nurupo> Upthorn: make sure your path to the wesnoth_root doesn't non-ASCII characters
20130412 04:20:05< nurupo> *doesn't contain
20130412 04:20:51< Upthorn> none.
20130412 04:20:59< Upthorn> c:\wesnoth\code
20130412 04:21:07< nurupo> just tried renaming my wesnoth folder and all images were gone
20130412 04:21:08< nurupo> okay
20130412 04:22:33< nurupo> Upthorn: try outputting IMG_GetError() into the std::cout right after the IMG_Load call
20130412 04:23:00< Upthorn> That's a good thought.
20130412 04:23:30< nurupo> like all previous were bad :)
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20130412 05:05:44< Upthorn> nurupo: well, they weren't bad, but they also weren't useful, as I had already verified all those things.
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20130412 05:12:45< Upthorn> oh, I see
20130412 05:13:33< Upthorn> missed copying libpng12-0.dll into my runtime working directory because I figured libpng14-14.dll was a newer version
20130412 05:14:02< Upthorn> IMG_GetError() returned that module libpng12-0.dll wasn't loaded
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20130412 05:39:50< nurupo> Upthorn: i hope you haven't deleted gui1 source files because gui2 seemed to be newer :)
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20130412 05:52:28< Upthorn> nurupo: nope.
20130412 05:52:47< Upthorn> I only tend to assume full released packages can replace older versions :P
20130412 05:53:32< Tenoh> for reporting bugs, the guide says to include configured language. Is that code language or just actual language?
20130412 05:53:43< shadowm> Natural human language.
20130412 05:53:53< Tenoh> ok lol thanks
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20130412 07:53:22< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen esr
20130412 07:53:22< wesbot> Ivanovic: Queried user esr is currently on the channel #wesnoth.
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20130412 08:04:05< LordBob-desk> fendrin: ping ?
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20130412 08:21:06< Ivanovic> esr: what are model and make of your 27" screens?
20130412 08:21:22< Ivanovic> over here i am using the samsung a850 and this screen is really great
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20130412 09:31:24< esr> Ivanovic: Auria EQ276W.  Gennerally available for between $300 and $400US.  27-inch.  Very crisp and bright.
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20130412 10:56:37< Soliton> Upthorn: sounds like a good idea to add output of IMG_GetError() to whatever other follow-up error you got. so the next guy has an easier time finding the error cause.
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20130412 12:09:41< Upthorn> okay, now that I finally have my debug environment set up properly, I need to sleep. I'll take another crack at fixing persistent variable subnamespaces tomorrow.
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20130412 13:26:28< Zonaz> Hi Crab_!
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20130412 14:05:58< dragos> Crab_: Hello! I've just read your email, I'll start working today.
20130412 14:18:13< thunderstruck> Does "new_syntax" in game_config.*pp refer to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI_New_Syntax ?
20130412 14:20:11< dragos> Crab_: I’d also like to apply to another of the AI projects (as a backup) because I really like working with Wesnoth’s AI. From the other 2 AI projects could you suggest one? Both seem interesting.
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20130412 14:29:29< Crab_> Zonaz, dragos: hello
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20130412 14:31:06< J3ny> hello
20130412 14:31:35< Crab_> thunderstruck: 'new syntax' refers to wesnoth AI configuration introduced in 1.8. 'old syntax' is the wesnoth AI configuration used in 1.6
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20130412 14:33:02< Crab_> dragos: 'rewrite recruitment' is a good backup one because it's different enough from other ideas.  for that project, you need to make a recruitment that would (a) be good enough (b) be configurable enough (c) be fun to play with (e.g. recruit a variety of units)
20130412 14:34:19< Crab_> dragos: a suitable 'very easy and first demo task' for the recruitment project would be to create a mirror recruitment - e.g. for MP game, same races, let Player2 ai recruit on turn 1 the same units as Player1 has recruited. you can do it in lua or C++, and show me the code.
20130412 14:35:39< Crab_> dragos: afterwards, the challenge would be to do some design work, writing a wiki page (or a online shared document) that would have a description of how you recruitment would work. I can share a couple of ideas when you'll get to it.
20130412 14:36:28< Crab_> dragos: the recruitment project is a good fallback because it has little-to-no mandatory research. e.g. for defense you can get stuck trying to invent something that would work. for recruitment, you can do a better recruitment than current one just by coding something from scratch, it's very easy to improve the current one.
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20130412 14:48:12< J3ny> crab: for the total defense ai, is it mainly about coding a prediction mechanism for future turns?
20130412 14:56:33< dragos> Crab_: Thanks! I'll start working on the ideas today. 
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20130412 14:57:47< Crab_> J3ny: (note that I only get an IRC highlight if you use the nick as is, "Crab_") it's more about getting the AI know how to fall back and form defensive lines. prediction about future turns might help, but that's not the only possible approach.
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20130412 14:58:33< Crab_> dragos: ok, great. ask questions if necessary, here or by mail.
20130412 14:59:49< Trademark> Hello Crab_, do you know when Mordante usually join IRC ?
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20130412 15:06:10< Crab_> Trademark: hello. evening in europe. last date 'April 09'. you can also join wesnoth-dev mailing list or mail him directly.
20130412 15:06:16-!- akshaydixi [~akshay@115.248.50.23] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130412 15:06:23< Crab_> Trademark: Mordante is Mark de Wever, email can be taken, for example, from http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/gui/widgets/button.cpp
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20130412 15:06:58< Crab_> Trademark: (or forum PM)
20130412 15:07:03< Crab_> Trademark: I don't know which way of communication he'll prefer, just ask him.
20130412 15:07:49-!- LordBob-desk is now known as LordBob_
20130412 15:08:44< Trademark> Crab_, okay thanks, I'll send a mail first
20130412 15:11:12< Zonaz> Crab_: Since there are a whole lot of people here applying for the AI projects I feel that my skill don't measure up to snatch the only spot. SO I guess I'll ahve to pass and go to Worldforge and try my luck there
20130412 15:11:13< Zonaz> cya
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20130412 15:11:58< Crab_> Zonaz: good luck, have fun. note that the there's usually a lot of people applying, but in the end most just disappear, so the end competition is more like '2-3 good applicants per slot'
20130412 15:16:01< fendrin> LordBob_: pong
20130412 15:17:05< LordBob_> fendrin: hi there. I have readied an image set for a 78 pix unit button.
20130412 15:18:21< Zonaz> but yet again... I really like these project
20130412 15:18:22< Zonaz> so
20130412 15:18:25< Zonaz> fuck it
20130412 15:18:28< akshaydixi> Hi everyone. Im extremely interested in the AI total defence strategy project for GSoC.  Could I get a little bit of more background on it?
20130412 15:18:28< Zonaz> I'll give it a shot
20130412 15:18:39< thunderstruck> Crab_, what would you say is the desirable outcome of MP campaign idea from the UMC devs perspective? Is it that he/she can take an SP campaign and turn it into MP with only just adding a few tags (e.g. to define the number of human players in scenarios)?
20130412 15:19:16< Crab_> fendrin: ^
20130412 15:19:41< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes, while still keeping it a SP campaign with no maintenance overhead.
20130412 15:20:20< Crab_> thunderstruck: plus extra gui dialogs and code to allow changes of players easily (when a scenario for 2 players changes into a scenario for 3 players, and two of those 3 players need to be put in proper positions automatically)
20130412 15:20:53< fendrin> Crab_, thunderstruck: Most of the WML is already fine. I mean the current WML coding for a dual campaign being both, single and multiplayer is fine.
20130412 15:21:10< Crab_> akshaydixi: hello. firstly, can you tell me - if you've played wesnoth so far or not?
20130412 15:21:15< fendrin> It's more of a gui problem right now.
20130412 15:21:31< thunderstruck> fendrin, I didn't notice any dual campaigns. Could you point me to any of them?
20130412 15:21:51< fendrin> thunderstruck: Legend of Wesmere in mainline.
20130412 15:22:11< akshaydixi> Crab_ : Yeah I have played it a little bit. Not extensively, but just the first scenario.
20130412 15:22:18< Crab_> Zonaz: ask questions. note that recruitment is the easiest idea to go for. also, compiling wesnoth and submitting at least 1-2 patches is really good path to get accepted.
20130412 15:22:56< fendrin> LordBob_: fine, I didn't manage to drop the forum message, felt asleep suddenly.
20130412 15:23:20< Crab_> akshaydixi: then try playing skirmishes against AI. you'll notice that it can attack quite well, but it can't defend well. so, we make it attack aggressively, even at 1:2 odds. that means that if you just sit behind a good defensive terrain AI will happily attack you at 1:2 odds and it'll spend twice as money in the end.
20130412 15:23:48< Crab_> akshaydixi: so, wesnoth AI is balanced when it has x2 gold advantage. and we want to change that, by allowing it to do other good things apart from 'do an all-out attack'
20130412 15:24:01< Soliton> Zonaz: note that you can also contribute to wesnoth outside of gsoc. ;-)
20130412 15:24:13< Crab_> Soliton: yes, but GSOC is much more fun :)
20130412 15:24:18< LordBob_> fendrin: no problem. I just had some time to kill this morning, so I made a guess for the button size. I've done the same states as for the terrain button
20130412 15:25:37< Soliton> Zonaz: also you can apply to several organisations afaik. making several good applications is probably not so easy though.
20130412 15:25:48< akshaydixi> Crab_ : So that means that if the AI is against a player who'll turtle, it'll get beaten easily right? 
20130412 15:27:24< LordBob_> fendrin: and here we are, I've posted the package on the forum
20130412 15:27:38< Soliton> akshaydixi: 'easily' is relative but yes.
20130412 15:30:48< akshaydixi> Crab_ : Ok, thanks for clearing that up. So from what I understand from the GSoC page idea that C++ skills are required. But is that the only prerequisite for working on a codebase as large as Wesnoth's?
20130412 15:31:18< Crab_> akshaydixi: usually other parts can be learned on the fly
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20130412 15:32:03< Crab_> akshaydixi: yes, with equal gold the 'turtle' wins easily, provided that he grabbed a half of the map (to have the same income) before going turtle. it's rather easy to trick ai into attacking along an edge of the forest or water.
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20130412 15:35:21< PL_kolek> Hello! Can I join the discussion here about GSoC?
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20130412 15:36:11< Soliton> yes.
20130412 15:37:04< akshaydixi> Crab_: So I'm downloading the source right now. According to the idea page, the default aggression is the only factor that we can modify or are there a few more?
20130412 15:37:26< Crab_> akshaydixi: there are a few more, but it's the main one and the most easy-to-understand one.
20130412 15:37:39< Crab_> but of course the source can be modified as well :))
20130412 15:38:16< akshaydixi> Crab_ : Or could you please just tell me in brief how exactly the AI selects its moves, it would a a great help while going through the code :)
20130412 15:38:35< fendrin> Is there still anyone with knowledge about gui1 alive? My widget handles events *before* its children do. Can't work that way.
20130412 15:41:04< PL_kolek> Thanks ;). The task about mainline campaigns. The goal is to go through all the campaigns and better them using new capabilities of the engine? If yes, what's the exemplary function that isn't used?
20130412 15:43:43< Crab_> akshaydixi: please take a look at  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/General_RCA_AI_Howto
20130412 15:43:47< fendrin> PL_kolek: Hmmmm
20130412 15:43:59< fendrin> PL_kolek: You can have a look at the wml reference wiki page.
20130412 15:44:13< fendrin> PL_kolek: New stuff is marked there.
20130412 15:44:15< Crab_> PL_kolek: check mattsc's demos at https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20130412 15:44:44< thunderstruck> fendrin, I can't see LoW in multiplayer games list. Is it somehow disabled?
20130412 15:44:57< Crab_> PL_kolek: he has a lot of wonderful Lua-based snippets, that we should take and use (and make easier to use)
20130412 15:45:11< fendrin> thunderstruck: Yes, start wesnoth with --debug and it should appear. (Haven't checked for a while)
20130412 15:46:51< mattsc> PL_kolek: also, a list of already easy to use new AI functions is here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs  (Crab_ woke me up :) )
20130412 15:47:14< mattsc> s/functions/functionality
20130412 15:47:15< Crab_> mattsc: :)) good morning
20130412 15:48:01< mattsc> Hi, Crab_.  I'll still have my questions about extCAs, but there's no rush.  I am currently teaching Fred not to be such a chicken!
20130412 15:48:19< Crab_> mattsc: ok
20130412 15:48:48< mattsc> Crab_: I think answering questions of GSoC applicants is more important right now.
20130412 15:49:26< mattsc> I'd like to have the Micro AIs be combinable in any combination for 1.11.3, but we probably have a bit of time for that.
20130412 15:51:00< PL_kolek> To make my chances as big as possible I should: submit 2+ patches, focus on 1,2 projects ask and read about them a lot?
20130412 15:51:45< fendrin> thunderstruck: any success?
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20130412 15:52:14< thunderstruck> fendrin, nope.
20130412 15:52:36< fendrin> thunderstruck: You are on which operating system?
20130412 15:52:46< thunderstruck> fendrin, Linux.
20130412 15:52:49< fendrin> okay
20130412 15:53:09< fendrin> I guess you can start wesnoth on command line and add additional arguments?
20130412 15:53:50< thunderstruck> fendrin, but _main.cfg of LoW doesn't have "#ifdef MULTIPLAYER". Is that alright?
20130412 15:54:24< thunderstruck> fendrin, yes, I can :) I'll double check the list again..
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20130412 15:55:46< thunderstruck> fendrin, by the way, I see Benchmarks and maybe some other new stuff.
20130412 15:56:56< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, some weeks ago there was some feedback about LoW MP. I wonder which version of the game was played there.
20130412 15:57:46< thunderstruck> fendrin, I've tried with the latest dev and 1.10.
20130412 15:58:08< Crab_> PL_kolek: yes. submit patches, focus on 1 (maybe on 2) projects, read and ask good questions. if the questions would be good they would probably lead to some demo tasks.
20130412 15:59:05< thunderstruck> fendrin, it should be named as its first scenario, "The Uprooting", right?
20130412 16:00:37< fendrin> thunderstruck: Yeah, you should see a starting scenario for each chapter * 3 for each difficult level. Making no less than 15 new entries.
20130412 16:01:55< fendrin> LordBob_: The unit's are 72 pixel wide. Thus you went with 3 pixel border, but the border is quite small.
20130412 16:03:13< LordBob_> fendrin: do you mean I could draw a larger border, or instead enlarge the base so that there is more space around the unit ?
20130412 16:03:36< LordBob_> fendrin: either way, which would be the preferred size for the entire button ?
20130412 16:05:37< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the new terrain frame is very dense. The border of the button touches the terrain images when blited properly.
20130412 16:06:32< fendrin> LordBob_: If you do the same to the unit frame, going with one pixel border and dense placement, it will end up at 74x74.
20130412 16:07:34< fendrin> LordBob_: Most units don't touch the border anyway. Thus it doesn't really matter much.
20130412 16:07:52< fendrin> LordBob_: The question is if we introduce a bigger border line.
20130412 16:09:25< LordBob_> fendrin: techically, I've done the same as before; the thickness of the frame is 3 pixels, which leaves a 72 pix area for the unit
20130412 16:09:51< LordBob_> fendrin: as for the button base underneath, its border highlight is only 1 pixel thick, indeed
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20130412 16:11:05< LordBob_> fendrin: anyway, I wouldn't consider a thicker border if only for consistency
20130412 16:11:41< LordBob_> fendrin: if we clutter the editor with a gazillion different-looking buttons, the user might feel lost
20130412 16:12:27< LordBob_> fendrin: so if unit picking works the same as terrain, I'm all for keeping buttons as alike as possible
20130412 16:13:04< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, well. My peanut gallery thinking gave me the idea that with a growing frame the border would have to grow as well to give the viewer an impression of being from the same type.
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20130412 16:13:26< thunderstruck> fendrin, is LoW the only dual campaign?
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20130412 16:13:38< zookeeper> what's this unit buttons thing you're talking about?
20130412 16:13:39< fendrin> thunderstruck: The only one in mainline.
20130412 16:14:10< fendrin> thunderstruck: Elf War from the Addon Server is also dual.
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20130412 16:14:28< LordBob_> fendrin: meh, that's a possibility as well. Any chance you have the possiblity to make a quick screenshot using the images posted ? 
20130412 16:14:48< fendrin> LordBob_: No, sorry. Not at the moment.
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20130412 16:16:21< fendrin> zookeeper: Same like yesterday. Yesterday's frame was for terrains, today's is for units. We scale our terrain down to 36 while the units won't. Thus different sizes.
20130412 16:16:25< LordBob_> zookeeper: we're working on a revamped selected unit outline for the editor, similar to what we did for the selected terrain tile of the brush. Though calling it "button" is a long shot;
20130412 16:17:04< fendrin> Yeah, its a "fancy animated frame"^tm
20130412 16:17:29< LordBob_> fendrin: then maybe a screenshot of the existing editor ? I haven't been able to activate the unit list myself
20130412 16:18:04< LordBob_> fendrin: with that, I could make a quick mock-up of the final result
20130412 16:18:13< thunderstruck> fendrin, I'm able to see/play Elf War as both SP and MP. Thanks.
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20130412 16:19:20< fendrin> thunderstruck: :-)
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20130412 16:30:11< fendrin> LordBob_: My recent work on the palette system destroyed the unit palette codepath. It will take me some time to port it to the new base.
20130412 16:33:03< LordBob_> Fendrin: actually, I was trying make a screenshot with the 1.10 editor. It's just that I'm such a nerd that I don't even *know* how to active the unit brush ^^;;;
20130412 16:33:24< LordBob_> fendrin: apparently, it takes more than clicking the unit tool button ?
20130412 16:34:26< LordBob_> Can anyone give me a hint ?
20130412 16:34:27< fendrin> LordBob_: The 1.10 editor does not feature the unit tool at all. I wonder where you can find the unit tool button.
20130412 16:35:18< vultraz> LordBob_: there is no unit tool on 1.10
20130412 16:35:35< LordBob_> fendrin: Oh wait, it's 1.11 on this comuter.
20130412 16:35:52< LordBob_> 1.11.0, more precisely
20130412 16:36:29< LordBob_> There is a unit tool button right below the village tool, but clicking it doesn't give any results
20130412 16:36:41< vultraz> It's disabled
20130412 16:36:42< fendrin> LordBob_: Most likely your version comes with the tool disabled. Is it greyed out?
20130412 16:37:25< fendrin> LordBob_: On the final editor, you would have to create a "[side]" for the units first. The side management is still work in progress, thus the disabled tool.
20130412 16:38:06< vultraz> fendrin: idea: shouldn't the editor have a side 1 created by default?
20130412 16:38:08< LordBob_> Fendrin: a click animates the button, but nothing else happens. Must be hwo you described it
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20130412 16:39:25< LordBob_> Fendrin: nevermind, I'll do a mock-up using the terrain palette screenshot you posted the other day
20130412 16:39:36< fendrin> vultraz: Maybe. Some designers might want to use the label and item tools but leave side management to pure wml.
20130412 16:40:18< vultraz> hm....yes...that wouldn't want to override the current WMl side
20130412 16:41:02< mattsc> Crab_: while it's a little quieter, have I explained why I'd like to use extCAs for the Micro AIs (so that you can tell me if there's a problem with that approach)?
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20130412 16:41:27< Crab_> as I understand your problem is that two micro AIs interfere with each other somehow
20130412 16:41:31< Crab_> right?
20130412 16:41:39< mattsc> Not quite
20130412 16:41:45< Crab_> then explain :)
20130412 16:42:05< mattsc> The problem is that I currently need to define a lua engine in the [side] tag at the very beginning of the scenario.
20130412 16:42:08< LordBob_> ...That is, if I can find the screenshot. Fendrin, any chance you still have it somewhere ?
20130412 16:43:00< mattsc> If I want to use several CAs together (at random out of the pool), I either need an engine file that contains the code for all MAIs, or set up some mechanism to combine engine code dynamically.
20130412 16:43:31< mattsc> The first approach includes a lot of unneeded code, the second is extra work that will become unnecessary once the extCAs come out.
20130412 16:43:45< mattsc> Well, once they are fully functional.
20130412 16:44:04< mattsc> Does that make sense?
20130412 16:45:16< mattsc> So, if finishing up the extCA functionality is a long way off, I'll do the second approach.  If we're close to it being done, I'd rather not spend time on that.
20130412 16:45:37< vultraz> fendrin: what about loading the WML defined sides if you open the scenario file in the editor?
20130412 16:45:55< vultraz> (as well as placing units and items from the WML)
20130412 16:46:08< mattsc> Crab_: the problem of MAIs interfering with each other also exists, but that's independent of this.
20130412 16:46:34< fendrin> LordBob_: Which screenshot do you like to have reposted?
20130412 16:46:57< Crab_> mattsc: yes. I'd say that it's easier to finish the external CAs than to invent anything else.
20130412 16:47:20< LordBob_> Fendrin; the one that shows the terrain tiles with the new button base and wider sidebar
20130412 16:47:22< mattsc> Crab_: I'm glad you agree.  :-)
20130412 16:47:26< fendrin> vultraz: I save a file named <map>.cfg. E.g. Lintanir.map.cfg
20130412 16:47:47< vultraz> and all the stuff is there?
20130412 16:47:49< fendrin> vultraz: Whenever extra information is produced by the editor's usage.
20130412 16:47:57< mattsc> I don't want to step on Nephro's toes with this, but it doesn't look like he's time to deal with this.
20130412 16:48:25< fendrin> vultraz: The Scenario can include that file, just like any other one.
20130412 16:48:40< fendrin> vultraz: Meaning, there is no [scenario] around the stuff. 
20130412 16:48:59< fendrin> vultraz: the Lintanir.map.cfg just contains a dumb which works at scenario toplevel.
20130412 16:49:46< vultraz> my point is, what if the user loaded up the file with [scenario]. Would they get the foo.map.cfg, as well as the [side]s, [item]s, and [unit]s defined in the file with [scenario]?
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20130412 16:50:44< fendrin> vultraz: Sorry, that last sentence just confused me.
20130412 16:51:22< fendrin> LordBob_: This http://imagebin.org/253622 one?
20130412 16:51:26< vultraz> currently you can also open the scenario file in the editor and it will say, "Loaded included map" or something
20130412 16:51:38< fendrin> vultraz: Indeed.
20130412 16:52:11< vultraz> now, will it be possible to get any other information for the [scenario] file, besides the included map? Such as [side] definitions?
20130412 16:53:01< fendrin> vultraz: There is a mechanism for opening maps from scenarios by parsing the inclusions. It is broken for how most mainline campaigns handle their map inclusions.
20130412 16:53:46< fendrin> vultraz: A second mechanism provides support for editing a embedded map in a scenario. Like the test scenarios do .
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20130412 16:55:56< mattsc> boucman_work: I'd like to bring up the question whether it makes sense to keep the EasyCoding wiki page around.  (I think you set it up originally)
20130412 16:56:05< mattsc> It seems to be more confusing than helpful.
20130412 16:56:13< LordBob_> fendrin: yup, perfect
20130412 16:56:46< mattsc> In principle, it's a great idea.  In practice, it doesn't really work without being kept up to date (and I don't know if people have the time for that)
20130412 16:56:56< boucman_work> mattsc: the purpose was to collect easy tasks to help people that say "I want to contribute, what can I do"
20130412 16:57:10< boucman_work> but if it's unmaintained and unhelpfull, maybe it's worth removing
20130412 16:57:25< boucman_work> (though since we are in early gsoc period, you might want to update it for students)
20130412 16:57:28< fendrin> vultraz: The editor will load no information from a [scenario] file.
20130412 16:57:43< boucman_work> so I won't protest if you remove it :P
20130412 16:58:11< vultraz> fendrin: so what happens if a user defines a side in the editor and they already have one in WML
20130412 16:59:48< Crab_> boucman_work: we can just clear the easy coding page fully. then move stuff we have there. e.g. mattsc, you have listed some tasks, right?
20130412 17:00:01< Crab_> mattsc: those in one of the ai pages..
20130412 17:00:02< mattsc> boucman_work: well, I really can only judge the AI ideas.  There's a lot of other stuff there that looks very old to me.
20130412 17:00:04< boucman_work> ok, as I said I don't really
20130412 17:00:06< boucman_work> mind
20130412 17:00:11< fendrin> vultraz: Depends on how the user includes the map's cfg file.
20130412 17:00:23< Crab_> mattsc: don't delete the page, but clear it fully.
20130412 17:00:38< boucman_work> just pointing that student selection is the moment it's the most usefull, but if it's not maintained, do waht you want with it
20130412 17:00:46< mattsc> Crab_: yes.  I have actually put a link to those onto EasyCoding.
20130412 17:01:09< fendrin> vultraz: Assume that your scenario file includes the map's cfg file first and then defines more sides beginning with a number that matches, the result will be a working scenario.
20130412 17:01:32< mattsc> boucman_work: I agree.  It would be a good thing to have for the students.  But only if the tasks are not outdated and/or useful.
20130412 17:02:00< vultraz> fendrin: but what happens when there's a [side] side=1 in both the map file and scenario file
20130412 17:02:06< mattsc> Crab_: could you have a quick look at this section: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Improvements_to_AI
20130412 17:02:16< mattsc> and tell me if you want to keep any of those tasks on there?
20130412 17:02:43< Crab_> mattsc: 'Add an ai action (and add lua function to do that) to use a right-click menu item.' is the one we want to have. 
20130412 17:02:47< fendrin> vultraz: I guess the engine will deny to start the scenario and complain about the messed up sides.
20130412 17:03:00< Crab_> mattsc: it's, actually, the 'replay-safe way to pass info'.
20130412 17:03:03< vultraz> That's a bad thing 
20130412 17:03:50< mattsc> Crab_: yeah - and it's also listed here (last bullet): http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior#Ideas_for_Potentially_Easy_AI_Patches
20130412 17:04:01< fendrin> vultraz: You still talk to me?
20130412 17:04:20< vultraz> Which is why I'm saying, why not have the [side], [item], [unit], [soundsource] info read from the scenario file
20130412 17:04:33< vultraz> fendrin: er..yes I'm talking to you
20130412 17:04:34< mattsc> So maybe I'll clear the EasyCoding AI list and replace it with the Practical Guide one.
20130412 17:04:56< fendrin> vultraz: Because it is hard to read a human edited file and write it out again.
20130412 17:05:13< vultraz> that's true... macros and all
20130412 17:05:27< fendrin> vultraz: Best you have a file for humans and one for the engine to handle with.
20130412 17:05:29-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 173 bugs, 333 feature requests, 22 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130412 17:05:55< mattsc> Crab_, boucman_work : I'll also go through the rest and throw out stuff that's obviously outdated, or bug people about clarification on other tasks.
20130412 17:06:04< vultraz> yes, that does sound ok, except for the aforementioned times when both files might have dulpicate code
20130412 17:07:15< mattsc> I don't have time to be a GSoC mentor this year, but maybe I can help a bit in this way  :)
20130412 17:07:22< vultraz> then the user might have to edit the file the engine uses
20130412 17:07:43< fendrin> vultraz: The user can edit the engine file.
20130412 17:08:08< fendrin> vultraz: It's not recommended but possible and shouldn't hurt if well done.
20130412 17:08:29< fendrin> vultraz: The other way around, the engine writing in the user edited file, is bad.
20130412 17:08:54< vultraz> yeah... :S
20130412 17:09:26< vultraz> but OTHO, if no data is loaded from the scenario file, won't the user be confused when they load their map and half the units they want aren't there?
20130412 17:09:29< Crab_> mattsc: thanks!
20130412 17:09:33< vultraz> or items, etc
20130412 17:10:08< fendrin> vultraz: The only problem is that the engine enforces to give each [side] a number and that number needs to correspond to the order of appearance in the stream.
20130412 17:10:49< vultraz> which brings us back to the duplicate sides problem
20130412 17:10:54< fendrin> vultraz: This feature can be removed.
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20130412 17:12:27< vultraz> I just see so many ways this could be confusing for the user:
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20130412 17:12:45< vultraz> A. I load the map file. All my sides, units, items, etc, I defined in WML are missing
20130412 17:12:58< mattsc> Crab_: have you decided whether it's ok to keep the old syntax for aspects?
20130412 17:13:03< vultraz> B. I load rthe scenario file,and get the included map. All the units, sides, items, etc, I defined from the editor are missing
20130412 17:13:17< mattsc> Crab_: that's the first task in my list  :)
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20130412 17:13:52< vultraz> (or do they get loaded? if so, there's still the WML defined ones missing)
20130412 17:14:00< Crab_> mattsc: not yet. I'm leaning towards 'keep old syntax, let it just work, but promote lua aspects if anything fancy e.g. per turn or  time of day is required'
20130412 17:14:11< Crab_> mattsc: what do you think about ^ ?
20130412 17:14:22< vultraz> C. I duplicate some values across the two files, and get errors
20130412 17:14:25< mattsc> Crab_: that would be my preference as well.
20130412 17:15:44< fendrin> vultraz: 1) If you load a map file. 1a) There is a corresponding <map>.cfg in the same directory. Your editor defined sides/units/village ownership/labels/items/whatever will be loaded and saved.
20130412 17:16:31< fendrin> 1b) There is no cfg file. Doesn't matter much, if you create extra information and save it will be created.
20130412 17:16:44< fendrin> 2) You open a scenario file.
20130412 17:18:43< fendrin> 2a) It does not embed map. The old include parser will fail and no map loaded. Or it will succeed and load the included map file, with or without extra cfg file.
20130412 17:19:29< fendrin> 2b) You open a scenario with embedded map, like the test scenarios.
20130412 17:20:38< fendrin> This will edit the embedded map in the scenario but load save extra information still an an extra file. named test.cfg.cfg.
20130412 17:20:48< LordBob_> fendrin: http://imagebin.org/253736
20130412 17:22:03< mattsc> Crab_, boucman_work: I updated the AI section of the EasyCoding page.  Will try to look at the rest tonight.
20130412 17:22:10< Crab_> thanks again :)
20130412 17:22:33< fendrin> LordBob_: Nice.
20130412 17:22:34< Crab_> mattsc: I'll do the necessary code changes for old-style aspects to work in new-style config.
20130412 17:22:49< LordBob_>  fendrin: The actual thing ought to look better with unit sorted by their race, but there might be a problem with the large units
20130412 17:23:15< mattsc> Crab_: Thanks.  Or you could give it to one of the students, if it's easy enough.  :)
20130412 17:23:27< Crab_> good idea as well.
20130412 17:23:37< fendrin> LordBob_: I scale them down. No unit will be bigger than 72.
20130412 17:23:44< mattsc> Crab_: on my personal list, if you could make the extCAs work, that's much more important.
20130412 17:23:50< Crab_> I see
20130412 17:23:53< LordBob_> fendrin: that's good then
20130412 17:24:16< bumbadadabum> A unit can be bigger than 72x72
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20130412 17:25:08< fendrin> LordBob_: Maybe a unit that is only slightly bigger can be cropped but the dragon would certainly have to be scaled.
20130412 17:25:54< LordBob_> fendrin: that, or we make an even bigger button :p
20130412 17:26:16< fendrin> LordBob_: Hmmm :-)
20130412 17:26:20< bumbadadabum> All larger units already get scaled, right?
20130412 17:27:10< LordBob_> fendrin: so, about the borders; do you think we can keep them this way ?
20130412 17:27:11< fendrin> bumbadadabum: yes
20130412 17:27:36< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I like them. But how does it look with a bigger one?
20130412 17:27:48< bumbadadabum> (in the help and sidebar, not the main screen, of course)
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20130412 17:29:06< LordBob_> fendrin: I'll give it a shot. Same design, only thicker. I'll try a 4 or 5 pix border for an unchanged 78 pix button
20130412 17:29:36< fendrin> LordBob_: And the shape of the buttons made me think: What if the frame could look just like it fits exactly on the base?
20130412 17:30:00< fendrin> LordBob_: I mean the borders could be shaped to be the counterparts to the missing triangle at the corners.
20130412 17:30:51< fendrin> LordBob_: I mean, like two lego tiles that can be attached to each other.
20130412 17:31:53< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm not sure how well this would work. The border currently overlaps the base, so doing what you suggest would involve a larger border that eats the space between buttons. 
20130412 17:32:17< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'll try it anyway
20130412 17:32:56< fendrin> :-)
20130412 17:33:30< fendrin> vultraz: Any questions left?
20130412 17:34:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: this would mean an overal larger button, and the need for additional space below the group buttons
20130412 17:35:28< vultraz> um....
20130412 17:35:32< vultraz> don;t think so
20130412 17:36:23< fendrin> vultraz: Please tell me when you discover more plot holes in the editor's story.
20130412 17:37:19< fendrin> LordBob_: My imagination isn't sufficient. If the frame fills the missing triangle, maybe +1, Why does it extend the size that much?
20130412 17:39:18< LordBob_> fendrin: not that much with these dimensions. But it removes most of the space we had left for decoration, not to mention that it would likely involde doing a new set of terrain tile buttons
20130412 17:39:27< LordBob_> *involve
20130412 17:41:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, sounds like the idea isn't very good at all.
20130412 17:41:35< fendrin> LordBob_: Must have played to much Lego in my childhood.
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20130412 17:51:10< LordBob_> fendrin: there's no such thing as a bad idea when building a video game, so I still gave it a try.
20130412 17:51:13< LordBob_> http://imagebin.org/253737
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20130412 17:52:49< LordBob_> fendrin: I'm definitely against the wide border which I find a lot less elegant (at least in its current shape. With a fine decorative pattern, it might look better)
20130412 17:53:09< fendrin> agreed
20130412 17:53:28< LordBob_> fendrin: however, I have to admit the "lego" border (top left corner) has its appeal
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20130412 17:53:51< fendrin> Yes, what you produced works for me. It looks attached.
20130412 17:54:00< anonymissimus> fendrin: my turn button and also the actions menu remind me of the controls in a Klingon vessel when I'm out-of-turn now
20130412 17:55:40< LordBob_> fendrin: dammit, now I'm thinking it might even be worth replacing both sets with this kind of border 
20130412 17:55:41< fendrin> anonymissimus: Did you exchange their images?
20130412 17:56:00< LordBob_> fendrin: I'll add the glow to check how it looks
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20130412 17:57:13< fendrin> LordBob_: I plan to introduce the palette into the game some time in the future. With a WML interface so that a campaign designer could use the palette for a unit's inventory for example.
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20130412 17:59:18< anonymissimus> fendrin: not sure whether it is supposed to look like this: http://imagebin.org/253738
20130412 18:00:04< LordBob_> Fendrin: this would definitely add to the possible RPG aspects of the game ^^
20130412 18:00:07< anonymissimus> and in case it is, buttons basically always just turn gray or so when they're disabled in programs
20130412 18:01:17< fendrin> anonymissimus: Ah yes. You spotted another issue of missing artwork.
20130412 18:02:42< LordBob_> fendrin: how about that ? http://imagebin.org/253739
20130412 18:05:36< fendrin> LordBob_: Fine, I think the final result would handle the unit's shadow better.
20130412 18:07:08< vultraz> Why;s there pure white in some units' shadows?
20130412 18:08:06< fendrin> vultraz: I guess this is just a matter of alpha value and transparency handling.
20130412 18:08:19< LordBob_> Fendrin: okay then. I'll do a full set this weekend. Let's keep previous artwork somewhere in the resources
20130412 18:09:22< LordBob_> Indeed. I pasted images from the only unit tree, which is disastrous for the transparency of png files
20130412 18:09:31< fendrin> LordBob_: Before you start, I still think about how we could make the level of the button more visible.
20130412 18:09:34< LordBob_> *online
20130412 18:11:05< LordBob_> Fendrin: do you think so? I like it this way because it's discreet, yet perceptible
20130412 18:11:39< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I refer to the fact that the blue one should look different.
20130412 18:11:53< fendrin> Somehow pressed down while the red one is pressed up.
20130412 18:11:54< vultraz> fendrin: last screenshot you posted, two buttons up from the bottom (above the dragon). Why;s there a gap in the border?
20130412 18:13:00< LordBob_> Fendrin: Yup, I got that but I don't think it will mix well with the border glow
20130412 18:13:34< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, can't wait to see the final result :-)
20130412 18:13:48< fendrin> vultraz: I did not paste a screenshot containing a dragon.
20130412 18:14:04< LordBob_> Vultraz: I did, so it's a stray brushstrokes
20130412 18:14:11< vultraz> oh ok
20130412 18:14:20< LordBob_> These aren't actual screenshots, but horrible copy-paste mockups :p
20130412 18:17:06< LordBob_> Fendrin: sadly, my doubts are confirmed: the glow completey covers the border of the button base
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20130412 19:33:32< Mr_FauxPas> Just a question to devs: How much time did it take for you to understand the code ? Of course not all of it, only most vital sections where you specialize in.
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20130412 19:39:49< fabi> hi
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20130412 20:13:21< fendrin> shadowm: Do you agree that making every menu button a checkbox is a good thing to do?
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20130412 20:14:38< mordante> servus
20130412 20:14:41< fendrin> hi mordante
20130412 20:14:46< mordante> hi fendrin 
20130412 20:14:58< bumbadadabum> suvres
20130412 20:15:11< fendrin> mordante: I will make every menu button a checkbox, okay?
20130412 20:15:21< mordante> hi bumbadadabum 
20130412 20:15:36< mordante> fendrin, can you give some more context?
20130412 20:16:17< fendrin> mordante: Okay, look at a menu button, it behaves like a press button.
20130412 20:17:28< fendrin> mordante: Then have a look at a qt or gtk+ application. Menues behave like checkboxes with them.
20130412 20:17:29< mordante> AI0867, no particular reason want to look at converting more to tfloat later
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20130412 20:18:05< fendrin> mordante: As long as the menu is open, the checkbox is pressed. 
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20130412 20:21:26< mordante> fendrin, what do you exactly mean with checkbox in this case?
20130412 20:22:44< fendrin> mordante: A button which knows 2 states, while a press button just reacts during press/release, the checkbox stays in the state.
20130412 20:25:08< mordante> ok and what menu are you referring to the GUI1 menu bar?
20130412 20:25:38< Trademark> hi mordante 
20130412 20:26:03< mordante> hi Trademark 
20130412 20:26:27< mordante> Trademark, trying to get in GSoC again?
20130412 20:28:09< Trademark> never stay on a failure ;-)
20130412 20:29:15< Trademark> I sent you a mail about the addon server, but if you have some times, we could discuss about it this evening
20130412 20:29:46< mordante> Trademark, to answer your question in the log the status of the addon server hasn't changed over the last year
20130412 20:29:47< fendrin> mordante: I refer to all theme wml based menus.
20130412 20:30:16< mordante> fendrin, yes but the GUI1 ones I assume
20130412 20:30:33< mordante> fendrin, just looked at the GUI1 menus and see what you mean, never noticed before
20130412 20:30:47< fendrin> Yes, all of them are gui1.
20130412 20:30:57< mordante> although to looks like the ones in iceweasel
20130412 20:31:00< mordante> they*
20130412 20:31:20< mordante> although they look like the ones in iceweasel*
20130412 20:31:24< Mr_FauxPas> mordante, could you write something more ? I was also interested in this topic
20130412 20:31:58< Trademark> mordante, so the UMCD draft didn't change
20130412 20:32:01< mordante> Mr_FauxPas, I'm holding two conversations, which one are you interested in
20130412 20:32:15< mordante> Trademark, nope
20130412 20:33:48< Mr_FauxPas> uh, right, sorry. Well, I was also interested in creating new add-on server. So, my question is, what new features you'd like to have, and how in big picture should it be done
20130412 20:33:55< Trademark> mordante, could you consider my update, read it when you'll get some times, and then we could discuss missing features and some bad design decision.
20130412 20:34:26< mordante> Mr_FauxPas, are you familiar with LaTeX?
20130412 20:34:26< Trademark> (wire design in fact)
20130412 20:35:31< Mr_FauxPas> I know what it is, but didn't write anything big with it.
20130412 20:35:38< mordante> Trademark, I'll look after catching up with the log
20130412 20:36:27< Trademark> if the major features are well understood, I'll begin the overall architecture schema and write a proposal.
20130412 20:36:39< Trademark> mordante, thanks !
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20130412 20:41:09< mordante> Mr_FauxPas, did you already have a copy of our repository?
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20130412 20:42:29< Mr_FauxPas> Mordante: Not yet, I'm focusing on my assignments first, so I can have enough free time.
20130412 20:45:47< mordante> Mr_FauxPas, in our checkout there is a LaTeX document with some design ideas
20130412 20:45:56< mordante> you can get the files from http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/doc/design/umcd/
20130412 20:46:27< mordante> and umcd.tex from its parent directory
20130412 20:46:54< Mr_FauxPas> Okay, thanks
20130412 20:47:01< mordante> no problem
20130412 20:47:49< mordante> note this document contains initial ideas and one of the tasks for GSoC is to finish the document to a good specification
20130412 20:48:46< mordante> fendrin, the menu currently looks like the menu in Iceweasel
20130412 20:49:38< fendrin> mordante: Is that a bug or a feature?
20130412 20:50:06< mordante> fendrin, just a remark that the current menu's style is not unique
20130412 20:50:39< mordante> fendrin, but I don't mind if change them to toggle button style
20130412 20:51:05< fendrin> mordante: Iceweasel is just a firefox branding, and firefox is behaving like I want it for Wesnoth as well. I think we did not understand each other well.
20130412 20:51:36< mordante> fendrin, what version of FF are you referring to?
20130412 20:51:55< mordante> fendrin, Debian Stable has 3.5
20130412 20:52:24< fendrin> mordante: That has not changed since ages. Maybe your theme does not provide images for all states.
20130412 20:53:04< mordante> fendrin, no idea
20130412 20:53:38< fendrin> ubuntu firefox is at 20.0 ...
20130412 20:54:47< mordante> fendrin, of course depends on the Ubuntu version, ran into 9.4 last weekend
20130412 20:54:53< mordante> ;-)
20130412 20:55:12< AI0867> yeah, that's why I have firefox on this machine again. debian can't keep up with firefox's release schedule or something
20130412 20:55:46< mordante> Debian Stable in general can't keep up with things ;-)
20130412 20:55:54< mordante> but it satisfies my needs
20130412 20:56:33< AI0867> looks like I'm still running testing
20130412 20:56:41< AI0867> but I'll probably be using stable very soon
20130412 20:56:48< AI0867> http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
20130412 20:58:16< mordante> yup the new stable is getting close
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20130412 21:03:01< anonymissimus> that graph is ever-increasing on average over the years, just as wesnoth's
20130412 21:03:44< anonymissimus> or as state debts
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20130412 21:14:32< mordante> Trademark, I normally prefer IRC or email, do you have a link to your patch?
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20130412 21:19:57< Unnheulu> wesbot: seen crab_
20130412 21:19:57< wesbot> Unnheulu: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 3h 56m ago.  2h 45m ago they left with the message: Quit: Crab_
20130412 21:20:02< Unnheulu> balrog: yes
20130412 21:20:07< Unnheulu> Oops
20130412 21:20:09< Unnheulu> badola: yes
20130412 21:20:52< badola> Thanks Unnheulu .
20130412 21:21:28< badola> hi all,
20130412 21:21:29< badola> i am wondering if I would get some help on the topic "Improve Multiplayer Campaign Support"
20130412 21:22:17< badola> for the GSoC, this year.
20130412 21:24:35< Trademark> mordante, here the one from the last year: https://gna.org/patch/?3319 but in the one I sent to you, I made some changes (minor I guess).
20130412 21:30:49< Tenoh> about how difficult do you think it would be to fix the fact that resizing the game during dialog screws with graphics?
20130412 21:36:53< mordante> Trademark, you don't have a normal patch?
20130412 21:37:35< mordante> Tenoh, not really easy, but haven't investigated how doable it is
20130412 21:38:15< Tenoh> do you have any advice on how i should go about familiarizing myself with the code then?
20130412 21:38:29< anonymissimus> fendrin: I still have no idea what this actually means: "Switching difficulty levels during an ongoing campaign can cause all sorts of errors. Either make sure that your campaign supports the new feature or disable it with "allow_difficulty_change=no" in the [campaign] tag."
20130412 21:39:07< anonymissimus> fendrin: there's nowhere info how a campaign author can or should make sure that his campaign supports the feature of what errors could arise otherwise
20130412 21:39:12< mordante> anonymissimus, fendrin reading this I would expect the default to be the other way around
20130412 21:39:47< mordante> Tenoh, reading the code in src/gui en specifically the tdialog and twindow classes
20130412 21:40:12< zookeeper> i feel stupid for asking, but where was it that wesnoth gets money?
20130412 21:40:43< mordante> Tenoh, also note that depending on the screen resolution a widget and also a window might be drawn completely different
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20130412 21:41:03< mordante> (some widgets already contain code for it, no Windows at the moment)
20130412 21:41:21< mordante> zookeeper, money for what, GSoC?
20130412 21:41:30< zookeeper> for art commissions and stuff
20130412 21:41:31< Tenoh> mordante: I'll keep that in mind, thanks
20130412 21:41:34< anonymissimus> fendrin: I used to change difficulty levels by editing a start-of-scenario save (HARD->NORMAL) etc, afaik what the feature does is the same, and I don't imagine how that could cause "all sorts of errors" then
20130412 21:42:06< anonymissimus> not in my campaign, and I did it several times in mainline and other campaigns without problems
20130412 21:42:09< mordante> zookeeper, no idea, didn't even know we get money for it
20130412 21:42:40< mordante> Tenoh, if you have specific questions just ask them here also when I'm not around
20130412 21:42:51< mordante> Tenoh, are you a GSoC student?
20130412 21:43:09< fendrin> anonymissimus: Well, all sort of things you can go wrong.
20130412 21:43:13< Tenoh> mordante: yes I was planning on submitting an application
20130412 21:44:11< fendrin> anonymissimus: All your difficult level depending code must be safe for changing.
20130412 21:44:15< mordante> Tenoh, nice :-)
20130412 21:44:23< mordante> Tenoh, any area you want to work in?
20130412 21:44:48< fendrin> anonymissimus: Just imagine a unit you only create at hard but the user lowered the difficult level later to medium. 
20130412 21:45:02< Tenoh> mordante: with regards to wesnoth? I'm not sure yet
20130412 21:45:15< fendrin> anonymissimus: That unit is still around in a environment that might know not feature code for handling the unit.
20130412 21:45:33< fendrin> s/know/now
20130412 21:46:35< mordante> Tenoh, ok
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20130412 21:48:00< anonymissimus> fendrin: that is only a problem if the unit isn't allowed to die, since otherwise it can or can not be around anyway
20130412 21:48:49< anonymissimus> and such I've never seen in any campaign, that's too much for a difficulty level change
20130412 21:49:29< fendrin> anonymissimus: And thus the default is we allow the change. Still someone can write code that causes trouble.
20130412 21:50:54< anonymissimus> okay, more problems a difficulty change could cause ?
20130412 21:52:42< anonymissimus> querying the difficulty to decide for what code is in effect is probably bad or unstable coding anyway; that can be done with have_unit or variables
20130412 21:53:36< fendrin> anonymissimus: To be honest, someone forced my to introduce the don't allow option. Thus I really do not want to defend it.
20130412 21:54:29< anonymissimus> okay, but that warning just sounds scary, and I have no clue what to do with it
20130412 21:55:30< mordante> I'm off night
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20130412 21:55:58< anonymissimus> since I didn't force you I suppose we know who it was :P
20130412 21:56:02< fendrin> anonymissimus: Well, I guess a stupid coder could really do all kind of stuff which breaks when switching levels. 
20130412 21:56:29< fendrin> anonymissimus: You are just not stupid enough.
20130412 21:57:37< fendrin> anonymissimus: And honestly, I bet some part of UtBS can be broken by difficult changes.
20130412 22:02:03< fendrin> anonymissimus: A better warning might be: Make your difficult depending code paths aware of the feature.
20130412 22:03:03< vultraz> what problems are there with difficulty switching? How do you make you code support it?
20130412 22:04:14< fendrin> vultraz: Well, just don't do stupid things.
20130412 22:04:23< vultraz> That's vague :P
20130412 22:05:33< fendrin> vultraz: Well, you have different defines around. If you have code that only works on the code path that is the result of a constant define set, you are fucked.
20130412 22:05:36 * anonymissimus puts playing UtbS with changing difficulty between every scenario on his todo list
20130412 22:06:44< anonymissimus> vultraz: well, consider the example I added now at http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=36057&p=520196#p520196
20130412 22:06:48< fendrin> anonymissimus: Yeah, please do that.
20130412 22:07:05< vultraz> Why would anyone do that? The most I use the difficulty checks for are placing higher level units or recruit lists; I thought that was basically what most people did
20130412 22:07:08< anonymissimus> vultraz: in this example, the issue can easily be solved by using have_unit instead of #ifdef
20130412 22:07:28< anonymissimus> which is normally necessary anyway, since the unit could have died
20130412 22:08:27< fendrin> vultraz: Indeed, as I wrote above the feature is more or less fool proof. I was forced to introduce the guard.
20130412 22:08:59< anonymissimus> vultraz: well, in THoT for instance, there's a loyal mage you get to keep *only* #infdef HARD
20130412 22:09:27 * anonymissimus considers this too much for a difficulty change
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20130412 22:12:08< vultraz> so if you were playing on hard...and switched to normal...the mage should be there but isn't
20130412 22:12:13< nurupo> is there a util function that substrings std::string to the given length and appends adds '…'? don't want make code duplication
20130412 22:12:38< fendrin> nurupo: yeah
20130412 22:12:46< fendrin> nurupo: There is such a thing
20130412 22:13:11< nurupo> fendrin: where do i look for it?
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20130412 22:14:11< anonymissimus> string_utils.cpp/hpp probably
20130412 22:14:45< nurupo> oh, there is a string one, thanks
20130412 22:15:59< fendrin> nurupo: utils::ellipsis_truncate(truncated_description, truncate_at);
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20130412 22:56:31< shadowm> fendrin: Most menu buttons are commands, not toggle options.
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20130412 22:57:05< shadowm> Wait, you mean the buttons that trigger the dropdown menus as opposed to the menu items themselves, right?
20130412 22:57:12< fendrin> shadowm: I talk about: file, edit, map, window in the editor. yes
20130412 22:57:13< fendrin> right
20130412 22:57:29< fendrin> I think we behave odd there.
20130412 22:57:37< fendrin> qt/gtk+ do better
20130412 22:58:22< shadowm> I don't really see what the practical difference is.
20130412 22:58:45< shadowm> In Wesnoth the button doesn't stay depressed while the menu is visible, is that it?
20130412 22:59:23< fendrin> yeah
20130412 23:00:13< fendrin> I know it is only a little thing.
20130412 23:00:38< fendrin> Still, I do nothing else than fixing dozen of little things during the last two weeks.
20130412 23:00:39< shadowm> Okay, I'm not sure making them toggle buttons as opposed to just handling dropdown menu buttons as a special case of their own is the way to go, architecturally-speaking.
20130412 23:02:44< fendrin> hmmm, I guess I see during implementation what is better to go with.
20130412 23:03:35< fendrin> shadowm: I managed to port the palette draw bug to the new implementation.
20130412 23:06:49-!- Gambit [~gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130412 23:07:52< fendrin> hi Gambit
20130412 23:09:18< Gambit> Hello
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20130412 23:15:44< fendrin> esr: Is the repo at SF still open for commits?
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20130412 23:17:16< irker438> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-132-gfb32556 / src/sdl_utils.cpp: Spell fix in a comment.
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20130412 23:41:12< irker438> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-133-g2ba42b4 / images/buttons/editor/palette/active-pressed-both.png images/buttons/editor/palette/active-pressed-down.png images/buttons/editor/palette/active-pressed-up.png images/buttons/editor/palette/base-active.png images/buttons/editor/palette/base-touched.png images/buttons/editor/palette/base.png images/buttons/editor/palette/pressed-both.png images/buttons/editor/palette/pressed-down.png images/buttons
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20130412 23:54:11< irker438> fendrin wesnoth:master * 1.11.2-134-gec33e54 / src/editor/action/mouse/mouse_action_map_label.cpp: Made the label editor action partial.
20130412 23:55:55< mattsc> Hey all: I'm trying to update the EasyCoding wiki page.  I don't understand this task:
20130412 23:55:57< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Support_for_standalone_multiplayer_scenarios
20130412 23:56:33< mattsc> Isn't that what you do with the [multiplayer] tag?  Or maybe there's a typo in there somewhere that confuses me?
20130412 23:56:49< mattsc> Or, more likely, I'm just not getting it ...
20130412 23:57:15< zookeeper> mattsc, i believe it means that you used to be able to put .cfg's in userdata/data/multiplayer/ but it doesn't work anymore
20130412 23:57:29< zookeeper> not sure about the path, but something along those lines
20130412 23:58:06< mattsc> zookeeper: Oh, I see.  I'll keep that on the page then.
--- Log closed Sat Apr 13 00:00:53 2013