--- Log opened Sun Apr 14 00:00:08 2013
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20130414 00:04:50< esr> shadowm: I think I have the permissions to do it myself.  If not, I'll get back to you.
20130414 00:06:21< shadowm> esr: Yeah, just make sure it's called 'wesnoth' (all lowercase) because that's what I intended.
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20130414 00:11:05< esr> shadowm: Noted.
20130414 00:20:28< shadowm> zookeeper: Have you been tracking the wiki spam topic?
20130414 00:20:43< zookeeper> shadowm, yes
20130414 00:24:54< shadowm> wesbot: seen Crab_
20130414 00:24:54< wesbot> shadowm: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 1d 7h ago.  1d 5h ago they left with the message: Quit: Crab_
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20130414 00:27:08< shadowm> I'm actually curious how the spam is actually taking place. There's a Q&A captcha in place.
20130414 00:27:29< shadowm> I cannot register without giving an answer to a random Wesnoth-specific question.
20130414 00:27:47< shadowm> So either there's some clever way to break that, or they are using smart hired registration helpers.
20130414 00:28:19< zookeeper> a hired helper only needs to solve each captcha once and store the results
20130414 00:28:30< zookeeper> so i'd wager on that
20130414 00:29:50< zookeeper> although i wouldn't be surprised if there simply was some way to bypass the captcha entirely
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20130414 00:30:46< shadowm> Perhaps a possible deterrent would be changing the uestions and answers.
20130414 00:30:58< shadowm> Just in the meantime.
20130414 00:32:02< shadowm> Ahahahaha.
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20130414 01:04:27< shadowm> Blarghle.
20130414 01:07:06< LordBob_> fendrin, you still awake ?
20130414 01:08:24< LordBob_> or anyone who would be able to tell what the "item" button is for in the map editor, and what it looks like ?
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20130414 01:27:40< jfagan> I just selected build solution in visual studio 2010 about 10 minutes ago, How long does it usually take to complie wesnoth 1.10.6?
20130414 01:28:11< _Coffee> jfagan: if you can use scons and have more than one processor you can build in parallel
20130414 01:28:24< _Coffee> significantly decreasing the build time
20130414 01:28:39< shadowm> Shouldn't VS have such an option too?
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20130414 01:29:12< _Coffee> you want to look for a parallel processor option
20130414 01:31:15< _Coffee> it takes me about 10 mins to compile wesnoth from source
20130414 01:31:28< _Coffee> but over half an hour on a single processor
20130414 01:32:06< jfagan> ok thanks I will try to find the parallel processor option in VS
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20130414 01:40:28< flix> mattsc: I think I fixed the goto issue. Are there any fancy configurations I should test it with? Its working fine with your example and when there is no route to the goal (then it does nothing). I used  pathfind::a_star_search() in goto_phase::evaluate() in ca.cpp. What shall I do with the patch?
20130414 01:42:22< mattsc> flix: yes, that's the function I'd expected to be used for this.
20130414 01:43:24< mattsc> As for submitting the patch: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PatchSubmissionGuidelines
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20130414 01:44:22< mattsc> flix: Once you submitted it, I'll assign it to Crab_.  I'll have a look too, but Crab_ is really the person who should check it.
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20130414 01:47:25< mattsc> dragos: just saw your question concerning Lua AI.  I could probably help you, but I wasn't around most of the day (and probably won't be much around tomorrow either).
20130414 01:47:36< flix> mattsc: great! I will submit it tomorrow! It was actually a very nice task to familiarize with the code! It was fun! ;) good night
20130414 01:47:58< mattsc> flix: Great!  Good night.
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20130414 01:49:23< mattsc> dragos: if you want to check out some examples of Lua AI usage, you can have a look at the code of the AI-demos add-on: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
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20130414 02:01:10< mattsc> dragos: specifically, have a look at scenarios/test.cfg and lua/test_lua_template.lua
20130414 02:01:56< mattsc> That sets up a test scenario in which you can execute the content of test_lua_template.lua with a right-click context menu option.
20130414 02:03:35< mattsc> fendrin:  what I just wrote to dragos ^ is also where the code is to set up the two menu options we talked about yesterday:
20130414 02:03:37< mattsc> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/scenarios/test.cfg#L97
20130414 02:03:58< mattsc> lines 97 - 123
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20130414 02:38:43< jfagan> I am having trouble getting past the error that libintl3.dll is missing from your computer, I am using windows 7, and trying to run with VS 2010. I have already downloaded the missing lib files from the dropbox link given on the wiki.wesnoth.org site. Also before I hit cntrl F5 in VS I have an error saying error LNK1104: cannot open file 'Debug\liblua.lib'	C:\Users\James\Desktop\wesnoth-1.10.6\projectfiles\VC10\LIN wesnoth
20130414 02:38:43< jfagan>       
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20130414 02:56:47< nurupo> jfagan: had a similar error with other lib file. in my case the problem was that i tried to build wesnoth in folder i checkedout wesnoth from svn, as a result the svn application was somehow interfering and causing "cannot open file" error for one of libs
20130414 02:57:33< nurupo> it's not likely to be the same case since wesnoth moved to git, but still something to watch out for
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20130414 03:11:12< jfagan> nurupo: I'm not exaclty sure what you mean. I downloaded the wesnoth tar.bz2 from sourceforge.net and I have that extracted on my desktop and I followed all instructions on CompilingWesnothOnWindows for VS 2010. Should I be using git instread of this method? 
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20130414 05:05:35-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Git migration to GitHub in progress, please *stop* committing to SF | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 172 bugs, 333 feature requests, 23 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130414 05:10:28< esr> I'm now sanity-checking the prepared repo.  I think it's ready for pushing to github.
20130414 05:13:33< shadowm> Make sure there aren't things missing in both the source and the new upstream like the last time.
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20130414 05:13:43< shadowm> Where by 'things' I mean branches and tags.
20130414 05:14:19< shadowm> I am absolutely ecstatic about downloading this thing again over the course of two or more days.
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20130414 06:09:14< esr> shadowm: Repo is readofor push.  Would you admin0enable me please?
20130414 06:09:33< esr> s/readofor push.ready for/
20130414 06:09:47< shadowm> ?
20130414 06:09:54< shadowm> But you are already an org owner.
20130414 06:10:02< esr> Sorry.  Trying to type agin.
20130414 06:10:29< esr> OK, let me find the repo-creation button then.
20130414 06:11:18< shadowm> Next to your account menu in the top bar.
20130414 06:11:28< shadowm> Make sure to set the owner to 'wesnoth'.
20130414 06:12:18< esr> Done.  Shall I call it "main", or "wesnoth", or what?
20130414 06:12:32< shadowm> 19:06:20 <shadowm> esr: Yeah, just make sure it's called 'wesnoth' (all lowercase) because that's what I intended.
20130414 06:12:35< shadowm> 19:11:04 <esr> shadowm: Noted.
20130414 06:12:56< esr> Ah, forgot that.  OK, doing that now.
20130414 06:13:36< shadowm> I can fill in the description later, since I will be messing with the hooks config anyway.
20130414 06:14:16< esr> Creating.
20130414 06:15:10< esr> Pushing.
20130414 06:17:26< shadowm> Disabled the Wiki and Issues features since we won't be using those.
20130414 06:24:25< esr> Push is 20% done.
20130414 06:29:31< esr> Fuck.
20130414 06:29:33< esr> remote: fatal: pack exceeds maximum allowed size
20130414 06:29:33< esr> error: pack-objects died of signal 13
20130414 06:31:01< esr> Welcome to the wonderful github that was supposed to be better than sex.
20130414 06:31:22< esr> I didn't have this problem at SourceForge.  
20130414 06:31:22< shadowm> Gambit: ^
20130414 06:31:46 * esr googles.
20130414 06:31:48< Gambit> push like 10 thousand revisions at a time
20130414 06:32:03< esr> How?
20130414 06:35:14< Gambit> nevermind, that isn't the right way even if it is possible
20130414 06:35:44< Gambit> git repack --max-pack-size
20130414 06:36:08< Gambit> hmm
20130414 06:36:30< esr> Question has been asked on stack overflow.  Didn't get answered.
20130414 06:36:46< Gambit> esr: Well I was thinking you could make a clone that only has the first X commits and none of the future history
20130414 06:36:50< Gambit> push that
20130414 06:36:57< Gambit> merge the next Y commits, push
20130414 06:37:01< Gambit> and so on
20130414 06:37:34< Gambit> But that might be a terrible idea.
20130414 06:37:49< esr> Yes, it is a terrible idea.
20130414 06:38:25< esr> And I am now laughing.  "Github, it's so much better" they insisted.
20130414 06:38:43< esr> So far, what I see is FAIL.
20130414 06:38:56< shadowm> What I see is a safety measure.
20130414 06:39:02< shadowm> Gambit: Perhaps you could contact them about it?
20130414 06:39:24< Gambit> or you could try git repack --max-pack-size which is the proper thing to do
20130414 06:39:36< shadowm> Isn't that what was already done? :|
20130414 06:39:53< Gambit> Well not small enough I guess.
20130414 06:40:30< esr> We don't know what their maxinmu,m pack size is.  The second answer on StackOverflow records an attempt at this that failed.
20130414 06:40:48 * esr Googles more, laughing harder.
20130414 06:41:12< Gambit> well it failed a little after 20%, no?
20130414 06:42:09< esr> "git pack exceeds maximum allowed size: yiekds no useful hits on Google.
20130414 06:42:44< esr> Trying other searches now, but if that didn't find anything the odds are not good.
20130414 06:44:19< esr> I think the only option we have is a tech support request to GitHub.
20130414 06:44:42< esr> Gambit can do that.  I'll be over here, making popcorn.
20130414 06:45:25< shadowm> It would be nice if you could be a little less sarcastic about it.
20130414 06:46:19< esr> Oh, no. I intend to *fully* enjoy my gloat.  
20130414 06:47:07< Gambit> "Github has configured upload size limits to prevent spam. *gloat gloat gloat*"
20130414 06:47:10< Gambit> Email sent.
20130414 06:47:32< shadowm> s/spam/filesharing abuse/
20130414 06:48:09< esr> This idiotic second move has wasted a large amount of my time.  I was angry about it when Gambit pulled his precious dick move and I haven't syopped being angry.
20130414 06:48:25< Gambit> How large are the pack files presently?
20130414 06:48:41< esr> So I'm going to rub Gambit's nose in this turd as hard as I can.
20130414 06:48:51< shadowm> esr: Your time wasn't wasted until you decided to rewrite the repository history again.
20130414 06:48:52< Espreon> My, how pleasant.
20130414 06:49:00< shadowm> Now, please, keep it civil.
20130414 06:49:16< shadowm> I am the only one allowed to be intentionally offensive and obnoxious here.
20130414 06:49:39< esr> shadowm: Wrong.
20130414 06:49:47< esr> On both counts.
20130414 06:50:31< shadowm> I advise you don't test the second statement's validity.
20130414 06:50:42< Gambit> How large are the pack files presently?
20130414 06:50:55< esr> I don't know how to mwasure the pack size,.  And fuck off, Shadowmaster.
20130414 06:51:00< shadowm> As for the first, your time wasn't wasted because we could have just mirrored the repository from our server and pushed it to GitHub without you needing to lift a single finger.
20130414 06:51:20< shadowm> That is, until you decided that the repository history needed to be rewritten again.
20130414 06:51:46< esr> Wrong.
20130414 06:52:03< shadowm> Okay, then elaborate, please.
20130414 06:52:04< esr> You weren't payiong attention, fool.
20130414 06:52:22< shadowm> Also note that for once I am not the one who started calling people names.
20130414 06:53:02< Gambit> okay it looks like pack size can vary up to a maximum
20130414 06:53:11< Gambit> repository/.git/objects/pack/
20130414 06:53:19< Gambit> look for *.pack files
20130414 06:53:26< Gambit> check their sizes
20130414 06:53:30< esr> Yes.  For once.  You failed to notice the rather large amount odf work I did on tthe wiki to repoint the hosting-dependent pages.
20130414 06:53:39< esr> Looking.
20130414 06:53:43< shadowm> esr: You failed to notice I volunteered to redo it for you.
20130414 06:53:53< shadowm> Not once, but twice.
20130414 06:54:23< shadowm> And now I'm being told to "fuck off" and being called a "fool".
20130414 06:54:23< esr> Looking for pack files.
20130414 06:55:00< esr> Yes, because you're stiill trying to play dominance games amnd my patience for that is exhausted.
20130414 06:55:01< Gambit> there's probably some way to use the ls command for this...
20130414 06:55:32< shadowm> esr: I'm not trying to play dominance games. I'm trying to keep this train on its rails.
20130414 06:55:36< Gambit> ls *.pack -l
20130414 06:55:39< shadowm> Namely, the rails of constructiveness.
20130414 06:55:43< Gambit> and see what the largest offenders are
20130414 06:55:55< esr> < shadowm> I advise you don't test the second statement's validity.
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20130414 06:56:12< esr> I repeat: Fuck off. I'm dione enabling you.
20130414 06:56:23< shadowm> esr: You are saying you weren't being intentionally offensive to Gambit above?
20130414 06:56:27< shadowm> 01:48:40 <esr> So I'm going to rub Gambit's nose in this turd as hard as I can.
20130414 06:56:35< shadowm> And intentionally obnoxious, too.
20130414 06:56:53< esr> Yes, and I wuill continue to be both.  He has richly earned it.
20130414 06:57:33< shadowm> Such encouraging statements.
20130414 06:57:47< esr> esr@snark:/vault/wesnoth/wesnoth-code/.git/objects/pack$ ls -l
20130414 06:57:47< esr> total 9653688
20130414 06:57:47< esr> -r--r--r-- 1 esr esr   25431092 Apr 13 22:10 pack-a03e19d21a1a51666b7facb37414d9ea48323712.idx
20130414 06:57:50< esr> -r--r--r-- 1 esr esr 9859938174 Apr 13 22:10 pack-a03e19d21a1a51666b7facb37414d9ea48323712.pack
20130414 06:58:53< esr> 1oMB pack.
20130414 06:59:02< esr> There's only one.
20130414 07:00:18< Gambit> isn't that a gig?
20130414 07:00:25< Gambit> not 10mb
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20130414 07:00:55< esr> Checking...
20130414 07:00:55< Gambit> ls -l gives size in bytes
20130414 07:00:55< esr> Right, I mistook the units.  
20130414 07:01:10< Gambit> are those the only two pack files?
20130414 07:01:24< Gambit> oh that's just one
20130414 07:01:36< esr> We know that 500M is not small enough from StackOverflow.
20130414 07:01:36< Gambit> one pack file and a metadata file
20130414 07:01:36< Gambit> wow
20130414 07:01:44< Gambit> okay I will check frogatto's
20130414 07:03:14< Gambit> Well one of theirs is 700mb, so what the hell
20130414 07:03:28< Gambit> most of them are around 20 though
20130414 07:03:43< esr> HA HA HA HA!  Wonderful Github!
20130414 07:04:02< Gambit> I don't have any other large clones right now.
20130414 07:05:05< shadowm> 02:03:28 <Gambit> most of them are around 20 though
20130414 07:05:20< shadowm> Probably a consequence of fetching over time without repacking.
20130414 07:05:31< esr> Evebn supposding we find a pack size that will work on tis propritary abortion of a hoting site, the repack operation will take days.  I do not exagerrate; I've done it once.
20130414 07:05:33< shadowm> I assume you didn't ust clone the repository now.
20130414 07:06:12< Gambit> shadowm: Oh. I see.
20130414 07:07:06< Gambit> Well I have sent an email to github.
20130414 07:07:34 * esr sings the "Wonderful Github!" song, with five-part harmony and full orchestration.
20130414 07:08:07-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-62.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20130414 07:11:01< esr> Proprietary hosting sites!  Hosannah!  
20130414 07:12:53< Gambit> Don't go all RMS on us now.
20130414 07:14:15< esr> My revulsion has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with risk management - and GitHub is now busily engaged in proving me right.
20130414 07:14:17< shadowm> Gambit: UGH. I was _eating_.
20130414 07:14:30< shadowm> Will you ever stop reminding me of that video?
20130414 07:15:07< Gambit> Not wanting the repo to be one single gigantic file is proves that Github can't be trusted. Right.
20130414 07:15:27< _Coffee> shadowm: toejam or the beard food? :P
20130414 07:15:37< shadowm> _Coffee: :X
20130414 07:15:50< shadowm> :\/
20130414 07:15:57< shadowm> :(
20130414 07:16:36< esr> We didn't have this problem at SourceForge.  But Github, it's so marvellous!  Its streets are paved with gold and it makes your sex life better!
20130414 07:16:45< shadowm> Gambit: In this case it's most likely not wanting the repo to be one big 700 MiB stolen ISO 9660 image.
20130414 07:16:50< _Coffee> offtrack: RMS is pretty good though at predicting things (short stories from the past are pretty good)
20130414 07:17:17< Gambit> When I need a reminder that RMS is a horrible human being, I prefer his statements about how child pornography should be legalized.
20130414 07:17:36< esr> Actually I agree with that part.  
20130414 07:17:37< Gambit> Though eating crap off your foot in the middle of a lecture ranks up there pretty highly too.
20130414 07:18:09< esr> I don't agree with that part.
20130414 07:19:23< Gambit> I'm not sure how to react to the fact that you're okay with an industry built around sexually abusing children for profit.
20130414 07:19:44< Gambit> So I'm going to go before you get a chance to taint my opinion of you irreversibly by explaining it.
20130414 07:19:53< esr> I'm not OK with it at all.  I just think censorshiup of any kind is worse.
20130414 07:19:55< Gambit> I'll let you all know when I get a response from github.
20130414 07:20:15< _Coffee> I didn't vote, but one of the advantages of github I remember being touted was the integration of bug tracking/services
20130414 07:20:26< shadowm> _Coffee: We are not going that route.
20130414 07:20:39< shadowm> Incidentally, someone with admin powers should delete the wiki at SF.net.
20130414 07:20:54< shadowm> I'm not sure why the transition to Allura automatically creates that. It's useless in our case.
20130414 07:21:39< Gambit> Why aren't we using github's issue tracker anyways? It's pretty solid.
20130414 07:22:04< shadowm> Gambit: Because someone decided that neither SF.net nor GitHub provide what we want in that regards.
20130414 07:22:08< Gambit> I guess there aren't utilities to import our existing assets?
20130414 07:22:16< esr> Gambit: You may be missing a distinction.  I don't think the things they do to children to make the porn should be legal.  I'm only opposed to making posession of the results a crime.  It's too easy to frame people with drop porn, for one thing.
20130414 07:22:17< shadowm> IIRC it has to do with constraints on issue attachments.
20130414 07:22:35< shadowm> s/issue/ticket/
20130414 07:22:45< Gambit> That's why we have trials.
20130414 07:23:06< Gambit> shadowm: ah, I see
20130414 07:24:01< esr> Your trust in the judicial system is nearly as naive and touching as your trust in GitHub.
20130414 07:24:31< _Coffee> if you live in the US you have the higest chance of any OCD country of being put in jail
20130414 07:24:40< _Coffee> there are other more sane places
20130414 07:25:18< _Coffee> but you got other things going for you historically
20130414 07:25:24< Gambit> If you fund the rape of children, you're as guilty as the bastard that did it. It's like a crowdsourced hitman.
20130414 07:26:12-!- oldtopman [~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman] has quit [Quit: *pouf*]
20130414 07:26:15< Gambit> *crowdfunded
20130414 07:26:18< esr> I might be OK with a law that made paying for child porn illegal as long as possession and distribution weren't a crime in itself.
20130414 07:26:44< esr> That's actually an interestung idea.
20130414 07:26:52< Gambit> There are many forms of payment on the web.
20130414 07:27:05< Gambit> Viewing advertisements on a website that hosts the content.
20130414 07:27:52< Gambit> It all creates a market and a financial incentive.
20130414 07:28:07-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-34-165.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
20130414 07:28:08< esr> But now we'ee in a situation that at least doesn't enable censors, and solves the drop-porn problem. Big improvement.
20130414 07:29:03< Gambit> Censorship is preemptive.
20130414 07:29:08< esr> Strangle the market for it, fine.  But I have *no* give on interference with freedom of information.  Because it never stops with child porn.
20130414 07:29:10< Gambit> We're talking about punishment.
20130414 07:30:48< esr> Right.  And what would you do if someone planted kiddie porn on your drive and tipped the feds.  You don't know it's there, they find it, and suddenly you're booked for a long trip to Sing Sing.
20130414 07:31:07< esr> It's happened.
20130414 07:31:36< _Coffee> although straying a little off topic I think the problem in some places are 2 things: bad prison system and not focussing on real problems for children
20130414 07:31:57< _Coffee> something like living in poverty is much worse for a child than child pornography
20130414 07:32:04< _Coffee> that is something you cannot escape from
20130414 07:32:21< esr> Drug laws and firearms laws (criminal penalties for posession) all have the same inherent problem.
20130414 07:33:53< _Coffee> some prison systems in the world promote all sorts of things in jails to occur
20130414 07:34:04< _Coffee> that are as bad as the crimes that they get sent to prison for
20130414 07:34:25< _Coffee> and are real hothouses or drug trafficking
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20130414 07:36:40< Gambit> I should not have brought this up in #wesnoth-dev.
20130414 07:37:26< _Coffee> I thought it was just a time wasting thing until it is figured out what to do with github
20130414 07:37:28< esr> You shouldn't have pushed the move to GitHub either, and that didn't stop you.
20130414 07:37:39< _Coffee> I'm not really of much help, other than moral support :D
20130414 07:38:25< Gambit> Nearly the entire team wanted to be on Github.
20130414 07:38:29< Gambit> You seemed to be ignoring them.
20130414 07:38:51< shadowm> Gambit: Our real mistake was not attempting to do a test push ourselves in advance with the SF.net repo's history.
20130414 07:39:05< esr> GitHub!  It flies you to the moon!  It's made of rainbows and unicorns!
20130414 07:39:17< Gambit> And when it was suggested that Github's initial response was not very clear and we should push them further, you shot that idea down.
20130414 07:39:54< shadowm> Gambit: That is, if we had done that, we would have encountered (and possibly solved, we shall see) this issue without bothering the noisy kid that's singing in the yard.
20130414 07:40:11< esr> Yes, I tried very hhard to. *I* haven't forgotten the Bitkeeper fiasco.
20130414 07:44:16< Gambit> So far you have encountered exactly one problem with it.
20130414 07:44:30< Gambit> A very reasonable configuration issue.
20130414 07:44:39< Gambit> They do not like gigantic single files.
20130414 07:44:48< esr> But GitHub!  It's nuclear-powered awesomeness! It is our preciouss, yesss.
20130414 07:45:12< esr> Oh, I'm sure we'll find more.
20130414 07:45:21< Gambit> Compared to sourceforge or GNA...
20130414 07:45:44< Gambit> Would you like to be flooded with advertisements or have all your users scared away from the bugtracker because the site is too cheap to get a real SSL cert?
20130414 07:46:13< esr> Yes,
20130414 07:46:36< shadowm> Gambit: Incidentally, as the wesnoth-umc-dev founder admin I've been trying to understand the nightmare that is migrating from the classic system to Allura for a Subversion-based project.
20130414 07:46:43< esr> Those are better than proprietary hosting.  The long-term expected risk of data jaiuling is lower.
20130414 07:46:52< shadowm> I don't like what I saw last night on their shell system.
20130414 07:47:22< esr> shadowm: What's mysterious?  I did it once, for giflib.
20130414 07:47:39< shadowm> I don't think I said 'mystery' or any derivatives thereof above.
20130414 07:48:00< Gambit> Their terms of service do not permit them to tamper with our rights.
20130414 07:49:03< esr> shadowm: OK, what problem did you encounter?  I'm not pissed off at you except when you wave your dick at me and think that's accomplishing something.  I'm actually trying to be helpful.
20130414 07:49:14< shadowm> esr: Excuse me?
20130414 07:49:26-!- mordante [~mordante@roadie.xs4all.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20130414 07:49:41< mordante> servus
20130414 07:49:45< shadowm> I don't appreciate puerile references to genitalia in this channel.
20130414 07:50:02< esr> Then don't behave like a genitalia.
20130414 07:50:19< esr> It's OK, you've stopped. Mostly.
20130414 07:50:43< shadowm> I don't think I get where you intend to go, but I don't intend to play along.
20130414 07:51:38< shadowm> All I'll say is that your treatment of Gambit was very, _very_ unprofessional considering that you two basically don't know each other.
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20130414 07:52:28< esr> Thanks.  I'll be even nastier next time.
20130414 07:55:09< mordante> shadowm, https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2013-04/msg00042.html
20130414 07:55:36< shadowm> mordante: Yes.
20130414 07:55:49< shadowm> mordante: What question does this answer?
20130414 07:55:58< esr> And here's a hint: I even like you, most of the time.  But you don't get to lecture me about professional standards, and there is a point past which I won't tolerate your pretensions.  You've found it twice in the last two weeks.
20130414 07:56:02< mordante> shadowm, explains how esr's time was wasted by the second move
20130414 07:56:10< shadowm> mordante: No, it wasn't.
20130414 07:56:14< shadowm> https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2013-03/msg00059.html
20130414 07:56:25< shadowm> https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2013-04/msg00008.html
20130414 07:56:45< shadowm> But of course, the "upload process" plan was cancelled when we learned that esr wanted to rewrite the repository history again.
20130414 07:57:10< shadowm> esr: I don't like you and you know it, but why did you take a grudge against Gambit?
20130414 07:58:24< esr> Because pushing the GitHub wehen he did was both obnoxious and shit-stupid.  It created a long-term risk that the project doesn't need and that we didn't have to incur,
20130414 07:58:59< shadowm> What is the long-term risk again?
20130414 07:59:55< esr> The same data-jailing and related rrisks associated with any hosting service where we can't see the code clear down to the bottom.
20130414 08:00:10< shadowm> What kind of data-jailing are you referring to, in this case?
20130414 08:00:23< esr> Go read up on the BitKeeper debacle.
20130414 08:00:26< shadowm> Considering Git's DVCS architecture.
20130414 08:01:04< shadowm> BitKeeper is software.
20130414 08:01:07< esr> The repo is not the only metadata at risk.  
20130414 08:01:07< mordante> shadowm, I see so all points stated in esr's mail are exactly not a waste how?
20130414 08:01:39< shadowm> esr: What is the other metadata at risk?
20130414 08:02:03< shadowm> mordante: If person A does a task, and person B does the task again with the exact same data provided by person A, how was person A's time wasted?
20130414 08:02:12< shadowm> If anything, person B's time is being wasted, not person A'.
20130414 08:02:14< shadowm> 's.
20130414 08:02:56< shadowm> In this case, esr left a trail of breadcrumbs for us to follow, which is good because I generally can't find my way on the wiki otherwise.
20130414 08:03:23-!- beda [~mono@206-248-163-51.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20130414 08:03:29< shadowm> It's not 'undoing' his work so much as changing a few references (that probably should be coalesced into one page if they are really all over the place as claimed).
20130414 08:03:31-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-212-174.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130414 08:05:16< esr> The problem with BitKeeper-like scenarios is that you gradually increase your exposure to data jailing, never realizing that's an issue during normal workflow.  I don't know exactly how that will bite us in the ass; it's partly because I can't predict it that I'm concerned.
20130414 08:05:37< shadowm> This being the trail of breadcrumbs: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Esr
20130414 08:05:50< esr> But the history of such moves is not happy.
20130414 08:06:17< shadowm> Evidently I'd only need to start reviewing at February 25, 2013; the previous change was on November 2011.
20130414 08:06:27< esr> And dammit, *we ought to know better*!
20130414 08:06:44< shadowm> esr: I don't think you are answering my question. What is the other metadata at risk?
20130414 08:06:58< shadowm> Do you think GitHub will tamper with the repository history or something?
20130414 08:07:06< mordante> shadowm, and having everybody registered at SF is useful in what way?
20130414 08:07:15-!- LLttArCher [Liu@nusnet-211-62.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130414 08:07:36< esr> I don't know yet.  Part of my concern is that we won't find out until we're up to our ass in alligators.  Tht's how it generally works.
20130414 08:07:46< shadowm> mordante: That's an excellent question that doesn't concern me since we were specifically discussing the point of esr purportedly wasting his own time, not other people's.
20130414 08:08:48< shadowm> esr: We'd notice weird things going on during pull and push operations. This is not too different from an array at SF.net's facilities randomly experiencing unrecoverable disk failures and corrupting repository data.
20130414 08:09:25< esr> Maybe.  But this is a risk we never had to incur in the first place!
20130414 08:09:41< shadowm> One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that I intended to maintain a mirror hosted on wesnoth.org and occasionally tarballed for third-parties because neither SF.net nor GitHub provide the means for people like me to download a massive repository with an unstable connection.
20130414 08:10:10< shadowm> Now, the 'risk' you mention has a mundane analogue. Should we avoid SF.net too?
20130414 08:10:31< mordante> shadowm, I see it doesn't concern you :-(
20130414 08:10:46< esr> Look at the history.
20130414 08:10:48< shadowm> Perhaps we should carve every changeset on stone slabs and store them in a high-security vault.
20130414 08:11:24< shadowm> But yeah, stone isn't eternally fault-proof either, if history is any indication.
20130414 08:12:52< shadowm> mordante: I personally think my time and mobile broadband quota were greatly wasted last month with that download I will have to do all over again anyway because the repository needs to be rewritten anyway.
20130414 08:13:29< shadowm> The sudden appearance of the GitHub thing didn't leave me all too happy either since I was already planning how to go about the internal mirror.
20130414 08:14:21< shadowm> And furthermore, this uncertainty surrounding the move is stalling a migration process that naturally doesn't concern either of you since you don't have to administrate wesnoth.org's facilities.
20130414 08:14:32< esr> The problem with not having a project lead:  There was nobofy willing and able to squelch Gambit.
20130414 08:15:33< shadowm> esr: So you are essentially rejecting Dave and that poll he indirectly instated as having any value whatsoever.
20130414 08:16:02< shadowm> As for not having a project lead, I have been complaining about more practical and disastrous consequences of that issue for ages.
20130414 08:16:21< esr> Dave was...not helpful.
20130414 08:16:31< esr> And I agree with you.
20130414 08:16:34< shadowm> But some of you accuse me of being "unintentionally" obnoxious and offensive for complaining about that lack of leadership and organization.
20130414 08:16:45< shadowm> I don't know what to believe anymore.
20130414 08:17:31< shadowm> Meanwhile, other developers who are obviously not me consider that lakc of leadership and organization to be a 'feature'.
20130414 08:17:51< shadowm> I have one particular forum post in mind, but I'd rather not link it in order to not offend that particular individual.
20130414 08:18:02< esr> shadowm: I think you're obnoxious at time, but I've never criticized you for wanting a better-defined leadershipp structure.  I agree with you - I think it's dysfunctional.
20130414 08:18:25< mordante> shadowm, true everybody's bandwidth was wasted, but that was a possibility that would happen regardless where to move. If we wouldn't have moved to GitHub we also might have reseeded the repo
20130414 08:19:03< shadowm> mordante: Well, most (if not all of you) don't have to make sure you don't go over a very tight data traffic limit every month I think?
20130414 08:19:36< esr> Yes.  I actually don't mind the time for the second polishing; I probably would have done it anyway to clean up the attribution data.
20130414 08:19:45< shadowm> Meanwhile I have to keep an eye on a traffic counter to ensure I am not left with a measly 32 kbps download and upload rate.
20130414 08:20:21< shadowm> And then there's the issue that while I download such a beast like the repository over the course of whatever amount of time, I can't use my connection of anything.
20130414 08:20:23< mordante> shadowm, I don't, no idea about other users and developers
20130414 08:20:51< _Coffee> I didn't download the repository, so avoided the download
20130414 08:21:05< shadowm> Anyway, I do have to admit I wasn't bothered by the SF.net account registration in particular because I had already done it back in March 2008 to start Wesnoth-UMC-Dev.
20130414 08:21:28< shadowm> You know, that project I used to administrate which helped bring LoW, DM, and DW to mainline. :/
20130414 08:22:46< shadowm> For other people, your mileage will definitely vary -- there are people who are extremely wary about registering accounts on websites, and then there are people who don't care.
20130414 08:23:17< shadowm> I can see account registration being a major problem for sites with dubious security practices or people with inadequate password habits.
20130414 08:23:27< esr> I can't care, it would be futile.  I'm a public figure.
20130414 08:23:39< shadowm> I'll just note that both Gna.org and SF.net fell victim to data leaks.
20130414 08:23:57< shadowm> *victims
20130414 08:24:07< shadowm> That's a thing that can happen to _anyone_ who is online, even wesnoth.org.
20130414 08:24:21< esr> Yes.
20130414 08:25:16< shadowm> (In fact, we've been targeted twice since I started administrating the forums. Once the target was an unused and unmaintained WP installation, the second time the target were the forums via Tor.)
20130414 08:26:06< shadowm> (Also the apache logs occasionally look all goofy and ridiculous with attempts to access a phpmyadmin install we don't have.)
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20130414 08:27:43< Quan_> hello
20130414 08:28:24< shadowm> Anyway, don't take it on the talking cricket. The real push came from Dave and that poll in which people voted.
20130414 08:28:42< shadowm> Good night. (3:28 am.)
20130414 08:29:46< mordante> hi Quan_ 
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20130414 08:39:05< Ben___> hello
20130414 08:40:53< mordante> hi Ben___ 
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20130414 08:42:10< shadowm> ancestral: QuestyCaptcha or whatever the name is is what we use atm.
20130414 08:42:48< shadowm> Although my domain isn't the wiki, I went and replaced the current Q&As as a stopgap measure.
20130414 08:43:04< shadowm> Do you have experience administrating MW wikis?
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20130414 08:45:15< ancestral> I installed and setup wikis long ago but no, not MW wikis, and nothing in the recent past
20130414 08:45:35< shadowm> Ok.
20130414 08:46:16< ancestral> When do you see captchas? I'm trying to recall ever seeing them myself
20130414 08:46:28< ancestral> Only on account registration?
20130414 08:46:38< shadowm> Yes.
20130414 08:47:03-!- Crab___ [~chernyi@69-250.107-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20130414 08:47:23< shadowm> It's easy to check if you use Chrome or Firefox; just start a new incognito/private browsing window and you'll see the Login link at the bottom.
20130414 08:47:34< shadowm> The registration page is accessed from the login form
20130414 08:49:59< shadowm> The Q&As we set should be enough to confound any bots that might have been using captcha dbs to fill in forms without making it impossible for our SoC applicants to register accounts, although they can always cheat and ask for the answers in this channel. ;)
20130414 08:50:15< ancestral> Right, heh
20130414 08:50:27< shadowm> The real problem is that to my knowledge the previous Q&A set had been in effect for at least a year.
20130414 08:51:02< shadowm> To my knowledge Q&A captchas are only effective if you keep changing to the Q&A set every once in a while.
20130414 08:51:08< shadowm> s/to the/the/
20130414 08:51:20< ancestral> I was curious if there was a way to force a one-time captcha check 
20130414 08:51:55< ancestral> (And expire the old cookies, too)
20130414 08:52:48< shadowm> You mean so users editing pages for the first time have to answer the captcha?
20130414 08:53:23< ancestral> Does the Wesnoth wiki allow anonymous page edits?
20130414 08:53:56< ancestral> I didn’t think so, meaning you’d have to sign in
20130414 08:53:57< shadowm> No.
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20130414 08:56:06< ancestral> I suppose it’s probably impossible to determine if these edits are scripted/automated/botted or somehow human-driven/compensated
20130414 08:56:32< ancestral> (s/edits/spam)
20130414 08:57:31< shadowm> Forum spammers at least always seem to have very legit-looking UA identification strings.
20130414 08:57:45< ancestral> If it’s the former, a one-time captcha check would weed out the bad ones
20130414 08:58:28< lipkab> ancestral: I pushed a commit yesterday which shows a nice big message when the whiteboard is activated.
20130414 08:58:47< ancestral> lipkab: Oh yay, you are a hero among people
20130414 08:59:05< lipkab> Would be nice if you could check whether it's good enough to be considered a fix for #20101.
20130414 09:00:19< ancestral> I was wrong btw; there is a menu option for planning mode
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20130414 09:04:43< ancestral> lipkab: I'm still not a huge fan of p being the hotkey, but I'm realizing that's a personal preference. A visual indicator is definitely an improvement.
20130414 09:05:42< lipkab> ancestral: This is how it looks like: http://imagebin.org/253957
20130414 09:05:44< ancestral> lipkab: I haven't built Wesnoth from source in years. A screen grab on how it looks would be cool, though 
20130414 09:05:50< ancestral> Heh
20130414 09:05:58< ancestral> Awesome
20130414 09:06:18< lipkab> 'p' is of course replaced with the appropriate hotkey.
20130414 09:06:42< shadowm> Hm.
20130414 09:07:01< ancestral> I'm guessing the text fades away like most messages
20130414 09:07:07 * lipkab was expecting a 'hm' from shadowm.
20130414 09:07:12< lipkab> ancestral: Yes.
20130414 09:07:16< shadowm> lipkab: Hm.
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20130414 09:07:39< lipkab> But not two!
20130414 09:07:43< shadowm> Okay, it's not your fault. It seems the "enemy/ally unit sighted" message doesn't quote the hotkey sequence either.
20130414 09:08:39< shadowm> And I'm not all too sure what the best formatting would be in either case -- "press "Ctrl+F" to do sth" doesn't strike me as particularly elegant either. So disregard both Hms.
20130414 09:08:43< ancestral> The difference between that and planning mode is that planning mode is a mode
20130414 09:09:14< shadowm> lipkab: Okay, hm.
20130414 09:09:22< ancestral> (Okay, that sounds quite obvious)
20130414 09:09:47< shadowm> The "enemy unit sighted" message has the "(press FOOBAR to keep moving)" part on a subsequent line.
20130414 09:10:33< shadowm> It would be a very good idea (hint hint hint) to make the "planning move activated" message follow the same format.
20130414 09:11:54< shadowm> Especially since that would avoid awkwardness if "Planning mode activated! (press FOOBAR to keep moving)" turns out to be about 4x longer in some translation.
20130414 09:12:41< lipkab> Ok.
20130414 09:13:07< shadowm> And that's really all I have to say on the matter. It's a much needed improvement.
20130414 09:13:48< shadowm> That is, I've often accidentally toggled planning mode without noticing too since I'm too lazy to change the default hotkey bindings aside from the End Turn hotkey.
20130414 09:14:55< shadowm> I am sure that if you look up the definition of 'lazy' in an illustrated dictionary, you'll find a photo of me next to it.
20130414 09:14:56< lipkab> I'll change it as soon as the new repo is up.
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20130414 09:23:41< sagaradev> Hi everyone. I'm in the process of downloading the source through sforge. Just now saw the repo is being moved to github. Will that be a problem in the future? Can I change the URL in the config and get pulls from github?
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20130414 09:24:19< shadowm> sagaradev: No, because the repository's history will be rewritten in the process as part of the plan to iron out some rough edges from the SF.net Git transition.
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20130414 09:26:27< sagaradev> shadowm: thanks for the info.
20130414 09:26:56< shadowm> np
20130414 09:28:33< Ben___> May I ask what is the requirement of the programming skills?
20130414 09:34:03< mordante> Ben___, for GSoC?
20130414 09:34:39< Ben___> yeah
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20130414 09:37:18< mordante> Ben___, it depends on the task some task are more programming focussed others more research focussed
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20130414 09:37:28< mordante> Ben___, what are your skills?
20130414 09:39:00< Ben___> i am good at c++/javascript/java/pyhton
20130414 09:39:18< Ben___> and AI and knows game engine
20130414 09:39:32< Ben___> and self-study game design
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20130414 09:41:48< mordante> if you're good with C++ there should be no issue in the programming area
20130414 09:42:00< mordante> we mainly use C++
20130414 09:42:01< Ben___> ok thanks
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20130414 09:42:27< mordante> some parts use Lua, but if you're fluent in multiple languages, picking up a new one should be easy
20130414 09:42:47< mordante> for AI tasks best talk to Crab_
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20130414 09:45:18< Ben___> thanks but how could I find crab because I have some suggestion/ proposals on defense strategies
20130414 09:45:46< Ben___> I have tried to design AI for DoTA
20130414 09:46:25< Ben___> so I think I knows a little bit about decision-making and search in limited time
20130414 09:46:53< mordante> Ben___, either wait for him to show up here or send him an email
20130414 09:47:48< mordante> I'm off bye
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20130414 11:47:31< Ivanovic> esr: so the history was rewritten and the final conversion started?
20130414 11:47:43< Ivanovic> what do you estimate, when will the repo be usable at github?
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20130414 12:05:19< esr> Ivanovic: github won't take the upload.  It's complaining about the pack size being too large.  I googled for a workaround (while being bitterly sarcastic at Gambit about the wonderfulness of GitHub) but all I found was a couple of Stack Overflow posts recording other peoples failure to solve the problem  Gambit has emailed GitHub support.
20130414 12:05:40< Ivanovic> okay
20130414 12:08:05< esr> Other than GitHub being made of fail, all is OK. I can push the repo if we every find a magic formula to make it possible, but I think it is near certain that said formula (if there is one) will involve a git repack.  The one previous time I had to do that it took *days*.   
20130414 12:09:22< esr> (I bought more memory for ,y main machine to get that repack done.  That wasn't optional.)
20130414 12:10:44< esr> So I figure we're probably most of a week from finishing the stupid re-move.  
20130414 12:11:21< zookeeper> let's go back to svn :]
20130414 12:11:22 * zookeeper ducks
20130414 12:12:00 * esr troutslaps zookeeper, who was doubtless expecting it.
20130414 12:12:11 * zookeeper eats the trout
20130414 12:12:27< esr> So that was his plan!
20130414 12:14:33< zookeeper> yum.
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20130414 13:24:20< quan> Hello
20130414 13:26:43< quan> anybody there..
20130414 13:28:36< Soliton> maybe.
20130414 13:29:07< quan> i wanted to know about GSoC
20130414 13:29:52< Soliton> ok.
20130414 13:30:35< quan> what is the skill level in programming that is expected i the projects
20130414 13:31:04< quan> i know a good amount of C.
20130414 13:31:25< quan> and on the wiki page i read C++ knowledge is required
20130414 13:31:53< quan> i can switch to that. But i have never done programming in gaming before
20130414 13:32:58< quan> so what should i be learning in order to do a project for battle for wenoth
20130414 13:33:29< Soliton> learning c++ would be a good start.
20130414 13:34:12< Soliton> then you can try to fix a bug from bugs.wesnoth.org or a task from the easy coding page in the wiki and see how it goes.
20130414 13:34:53< Soliton> how proficient you need to be in c++ depends on the gsoc project you want to do.
20130414 13:35:22< quan> ok.
20130414 13:36:17< quan> thanks
20130414 13:36:41< Soliton> you're welcome.
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20130414 14:10:49< Gambit> mordante: Nobody's bandwidth would have been wasted if not for this second history rewrite.
20130414 14:11:11< Gambit> mordante: The github move is not what is going to cause you to have to reclone
20130414 14:13:47< Gambit> Can anyone with a current clone from sourceforge help me for a second?
20130414 14:13:53< Gambit> fendrin: ?
20130414 14:14:19< lipkab> Gambit: I'm around.
20130414 14:14:48< Gambit> lipkab: Thanks. Can you cd to respository/.git/object/pack/
20130414 14:14:55< Gambit> and pastebin me the output of $ ls -l *.pack
20130414 14:16:17< lipkab> Gambit: http://pastebin.com/GFava9d4
20130414 14:17:17< Gambit> So your largest pack file is the 1.6gb that I was told is the size of the repository presently.
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20130414 14:17:38< lipkab> Looks like.
20130414 14:17:47< Gambit> Meanwhile esr has a 9.8gb pack file.
20130414 14:18:06< Gambit> esr: This is why you encountered no problems at sourceforge.
20130414 14:18:16< Gambit> You've inflated the repository to an absurd size.
20130414 14:19:21< AI0867> 22:13 < mordante> AI0867, if you have a way to prevent committing to SF, now would be a good time to enforce it <-- I do (update hook returning false), but the shell system is broken so I can't install it
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20130414 14:22:32< Gambit> esr: Did you not notice that the repo was suddenly 8gb larger?
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20130414 16:10:53< fendrin> hi lobby
20130414 16:10:56< fendrin> hi LordBob_
20130414 16:12:29< flix> Could somebody explain me (or provide a link) how to make those patch files for gna? I'm using git and have my patch in separate branch. Is
20130414 16:12:30< flix> git format-patch master --stdout > myfile.patch
20130414 16:12:30< flix> the right way to do it? 
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20130414 16:13:48< shadowm> I think git format-patch master alone should create NNNN-patch-subject-here.patch files correctly.
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20130414 16:21:35< flix> shadowm: yes, thanks
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20130414 16:23:32< fendrin> LordBob_: around?
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20130414 16:46:40< flix> I was about to submit a patch to gna and submitted accidentally while editing the title. It seems that I pressed the return button or something. Can I delete the entry somehow, or at least edit it?  
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20130414 16:49:38< fendrin> shadowm: http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=61388&mode=view
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20130414 16:51:57< shadowm> The icons seem so large
20130414 16:52:05< fendrin> They are.
20130414 16:52:15< fendrin> We used 24 before, now it is 30.
20130414 16:52:41< fendrin> It is hard to bring the brushes down to 25 (the size I would have gone for).
20130414 16:53:38< fendrin> The disabled ones are hardly recognizable.
20130414 16:56:59< shadowm> Uh, okay, I' m too busy right now to subject that argument to my usual whining process, but okay.
20130414 16:57:53< fendrin> shadowm: No problem, I can come back later when you have more time, if you are interested in discussing the editor's gui with me.
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20130414 17:05:35-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Git migration to GitHub in progress, please *stop* committing to SF | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 172 bugs, 333 feature requests, 24 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130414 17:06:13-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130414 17:06:26< mordante> servus
20130414 17:08:54< mordante> Gambit I complained about the time waste not the bandwidth
20130414 17:09:48< mordante> AI0867, ok
20130414 17:12:01< mordante> flix, that patch seems rather empty... best add the patch and the info 
20130414 17:12:02< shadowm> AI0867: SF.net is perfect and there is no way the shell system can be broken. You are clearly doing something wrong!
20130414 17:12:28< mordante> fendrin, around?
20130414 17:12:32< shadowm> I urge you to figure out what you did wrong so I don't end up doing the same thing when switching wesnoth-umc-dev to Allura.
20130414 17:13:23< fendrin> mordante: I am.
20130414 17:14:05< mordante> fendrin, about the palette was it intended to become a floating `popup' directly dismissed after clicking a button or not?
20130414 17:14:27< flix> mordante: I think I haven't enough rights to modify or delete my mistake there... (Or am I to blind to find the edit button?)
20130414 17:14:42< fendrin> mordante: Yes, the button release will close the dialog.
20130414 17:15:07< mordante> flix, there is no edit button for the title but I can do it, but you can still add files and comments
20130414 17:16:10< fendrin> mordante: I guess clicking outside the dialog should close it and return the old item.
20130414 17:17:01< mordante> fendrin, not sure how easy that will be, but we can add an `x'-button at the top of the dialog
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20130414 17:18:19< fendrin> mordante: yeah, let's keep that in mind as a fallback. I think it will do without.
20130414 17:18:39< mordante> fendrin, I also notice we don't have buttons that do what we want yet, so will add them as well
20130414 17:19:08< fendrin> mordante: What buttons are missing?
20130414 17:19:26< mordante> if I don't run into problems I think I have something done by the end of the upcomming weel
20130414 17:19:28< mordante> week*
20130414 17:19:49< mordante> no buttons where the icon is set from the code
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20130414 17:20:54< fendrin> mordante: Yeah, I have done that to the gui1 buttons recently. Please note that I also implemented support for an overlay image that is blit over the button's base.
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20130414 17:21:47< flix> mordante: thanks! Title should be: "Improved ai behavior when using goto_x / goto_x in WML"
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20130414 17:22:43< fendrin> mordante: If you have a look at the scrrenshote http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=61388&mode=view. The tool buttons are only made with 6 base images + overlay for each tool. Before it was 6 x number of tools images.
20130414 17:25:48< mordante> fendrin, is this also needed in GUI2?
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20130414 17:26:49< fendrin> mordante: Well, LordBob_ feels it is a great relief for him. But we can still go with the artist producing the variants for the gui2 buttons.
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20130414 17:27:57< mordante> flix, done and assigned the patch to Crab_
20130414 17:28:21< flix> mordante: thanks a lot!
20130414 17:30:26< mordante> flix, you're welcome
20130414 17:32:06< mordante> fendrin, well if it is wanted it should be possible in GUI2
20130414 17:32:16< mordante> fendrin, just remind me once this dialogue is done
20130414 17:32:38< fendrin> mordante: It is not a big deal, took me 15 minutes for the gui1 buttons.
20130414 17:33:26< fendrin> mordante: I can do it for you. In fact I realy like to implement it.
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20130414 17:39:45< mordante> fendrin, ok
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20130414 17:46:38< mordante> afk
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20130414 18:00:53< fendrin> hi Gambit
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20130414 19:01:35< jfagan> I have been attempting to compile wesnoth 1.10.6 on windows with visual studio 2010 for about 2 days now and I keep running into problems, I have followed the steps on the forums but I keep getting errors when building my solution. One of the 20 errors I am recieving states that it can't open include file SDL_types.h : No such file or directory. I am not sure why this is happening because all of the 20 files it says I am missing I do have in the includ
20130414 19:01:35< jfagan> e directory, and I even changed the properties of the wesnoth in VS 2010 to include that specific folder where they are. Can anyone help me resolve this?
20130414 19:02:02< lipkab> timotei: ^
20130414 19:02:58< lipkab> Best solution is not to use VS for building Wesnoth, btw :P
20130414 19:03:16< jfagan> really what is best?
20130414 19:04:07< lipkab> The best is some kind of Linux, but if you insist on Windows you could use MinGW.
20130414 19:04:35< lipkab> + CMake.
20130414 19:04:43< shadowm> 14:04:05 <lipkab> The best is some kind of Linux <-- and this is the prime reason Wesnoth suffers from 'interesting' bugs on Windows.
20130414 19:05:09< lipkab> jfagan: We also have CodeBlocks project files.
20130414 19:05:23< jfagan> Ok great, I do have ubuntu, maybe I will give that a try.
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20130414 19:08:43< lipkab> shadowm: An evil seld-inducing circle >:)
20130414 19:08:52< lipkab> *self
20130414 19:09:04< shadowm> Yes, indeed.
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20130414 19:38:30< LordBob_> fendrin: here
20130414 19:38:38< fendrin> LordBob_: hurray
20130414 19:39:16< fendrin> LordBob_: You found the screenshot?
20130414 19:39:23 * LordBob_ has spent a day outdoors. Yay, spring is there *at last*
20130414 19:39:34-!- Czarconius [~quassel@14.139.122.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130414 19:39:37< fendrin> Yeah, it was a nice warm day here as well.
20130414 19:39:38< LordBob_> fendrin: looking at it as we speak
20130414 19:41:18< LordBob_> fendrin: it might be the current layout of the buttons, but things feel a little chaotic now 
20130414 19:41:31< fendrin> Yes.
20130414 19:42:02< fendrin> Everything is very dense.
20130414 19:42:28< LordBob_> I'm also wondering wether it might not be better to darken slightly the icons: right now, they stand out a lot
20130414 19:42:58-!- sagaradev [~sagara@112.134.200.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20130414 19:42:59< fendrin> Okay, there is much stuff to talk about.
20130414 19:43:06< LordBob_> yup ^^
20130414 19:43:09< fendrin> I would say, we start with the size.
20130414 19:43:16< LordBob_> but I'm glad to be able to look at the result anyway
20130414 19:43:45< LordBob_> you're thinking 25 pixels might be better, in the end
20130414 19:43:48< LordBob_> ?
20130414 19:44:05< fendrin> Well, 30 pixels is the size of gimp's tools as well.
20130414 19:44:40< fendrin> We could make the sidebar slightly bigger.
20130414 19:44:42< LordBob_> I like 30, because individual icons are easier to recognize
20130414 19:44:50< fendrin> To give us more room between them.
20130414 19:45:16< fendrin> And we can take more vertical space as well.
20130414 19:45:23< LordBob_> I'm not sure it's merely a matter of lateral spacing 
20130414 19:46:04< LordBob_> for instance, my using grey shades makes it difficult to differenciate enabled and disabled buttons
20130414 19:47:02< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, the engine just uses a grey function to render buttons with missing disabled versions.
20130414 19:47:24< fendrin> The images are already gray...
20130414 19:48:28< LordBob_> second, while I'm all for minimalist monochromatic icons, we still need something that helps the user distinguish different tool groups that work together
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20130414 19:49:06< fendrin> Okay, the first two rows, 10 items at all, are all tools.
20130414 19:49:24< fendrin> There can be only one tool active at a time, thus they define a radiobox button set.
20130414 19:50:50< ancestral> One thing to consider, I’ll throw it out now
20130414 19:51:04< shadowm> esr: Around?
20130414 19:51:12< ancestral> In the next 5 years, we will have finer resolution displays
20130414 19:51:27< ancestral> Making a 2x version of these controls may not be a bad idea
20130414 19:51:30< LordBob_> Okay. then additionnaly, we may want to regroup on the top row everything terrain-related (draw, fill, label, select - I'm not sure about the last two, though), and on the row below everything game-related (starting locs/items/units/villages)
20130414 19:51:41< mordante> fendrin, I think I found a solution to make the window work without a cancel button
20130414 19:52:01< mordante> fendrin, that means I have all ingredients for your palette
20130414 19:52:15< fendrin> You can call the draw and the fill  button to be relatives. Both draw terrain to the map and both need the palette. On the other hand is the draw and selection tool somehow a pair, both use the brushes.
20130414 19:52:30< mordante> fendrin, now I need to turn it into an appealing piece of code
20130414 19:52:38< mordante> afk again
20130414 19:52:45< fendrin> mordante: cool :-)
20130414 19:53:42< fendrin> LordBob_: Item and sound are relatives. Village and units.
20130414 19:55:12< fendrin> shadowm: Do you have more time now?
20130414 19:55:14< LordBob_> ancestral: you're right, of course. I've had similar concerns in mind the other day when thinking of how a possible GUI facelift should also adress  smartphone/tablets. To be honest, I'm even considering the creation of vectorial or 256 pix images so that from that point we only need to worry about scaling things down
20130414 19:55:25< shadowm> fendrin: I have time, but I don't have energy.
20130414 19:55:27< shadowm> Sorry.
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20130414 19:57:05< LordBob_> fendrin: how about: top row= draw/fill/select/label ; second row= starting loc/village/unit/item/sound ?
20130414 19:57:12< esr> shadowm: Yes, what's up?
20130414 19:57:25< shadowm> esr: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-test
20130414 19:57:29< shadowm> That is up.
20130414 19:57:38< shadowm> pastebin.com/qPXf36cJ
20130414 19:58:01-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@d155109.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130414 19:58:08< shadowm> esr: Can you check exactly what size the repository you tried to push really was with du -sh?
20130414 19:58:09< ancestral> LordBob_: That could allow for a scaling UI
20130414 19:58:53< esr> shadowm: Checking.
20130414 19:59:14< shadowm> du -sh, please, no ls -l nonsense. I like it when computers do the computing for me.
20130414 19:59:58< shadowm> Also, du -sh the .git directory if it isn't a bare repository. You know this already, but last time we did this I think someone provided a bogus figure for not making sure to check the repository alone.
20130414 20:00:56< LordBob_> ancestral: scaling GUI sounds like a whole new world of complications, from my code-noobish POV
20130414 20:01:21< ancestral> It also sounds like way more work than it's worth yes
20130414 20:01:24< ancestral> :-P
20130414 20:02:02< fendrin> Maybe, at a later time we switch to vector graphic for the gui things. 
20130414 20:02:31 * shadowm gives fendrin an odd look.
20130414 20:02:57< LordBob_> Still, we do agree that at the very least having several icons/buttons sets of different standard scales would help a lot
20130414 20:03:08< esr> esr@snark:/vault/wesnoth$ du -sh wesnoth-code
20130414 20:03:08< esr> 11G	wesnoth-code
20130414 20:03:21< shadowm> esr: Okay, is that a bare repository?
20130414 20:03:32< shadowm> Or even if it isn't, tell me what is wrong with that number.
20130414 20:03:37< esr> Hm.  What happened to the tab?
20130414 20:03:53< shadowm> It's an inverted I for me. Doesn't matter.
20130414 20:04:11< shadowm> Not all IRC clients parse tabs in messages.
20130414 20:04:35< esr> It's not, but the number is large.  I was counting on the push process to do compression during the build - I believe that's how it's supposed to work.
20130414 20:05:01< shadowm> Well, apparently something went wrong at your side. AI0867, Gambit, and Soliton seem to understand that part better.
20130414 20:05:16< shadowm> I only know I mirrored the repo from SF.net with all its objects, mirrored into GitHub, and that worked just fine.
20130414 20:06:10< shadowm> Uploading a repository that is larger than the average DVD image is not really something I'd expect to work properly anywhere with decent security.
20130414 20:06:53< esr> I can try running a repack.  
20130414 20:07:07< shadowm> I think these people would rather have you do it on baldras as it was originally planned.
20130414 20:07:26< shadowm> Since baldras has IIRC 8 times the amount of RAM your machine has.
20130414 20:07:46< Gambit> How the hell did the repository suddenly become 9gb larger?
20130414 20:08:22< shadowm> Someone suggested that it might have been a consequence of an OOM condition during the repack.
20130414 20:09:20< shadowm> Okay, while we are at it I'll check the hook business.
20130414 20:11:53< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, I somehow lost the topic. We already agreed that 30 pixels is the right size?
20130414 20:12:02< LordBob_> fendrin: yup ^^
20130414 20:12:06< shadowm> !netname ai0867.net
20130414 20:12:06< shikadibot> shadowm: ai0867.net = [CNAME: vps538.sbp.quickservers.com] 109.237.218.218
20130414 20:12:45< LordBob_> fendrin: now, we're on groupinng icons into organized subsets 
20130414 20:13:24< fendrin> LordBob_: You want them to be just near each other or do you want to draw a background suggesting the organization?
20130414 20:13:48< fendrin> LordBob_: The grey box is just a background image. It can be randomly modified.
20130414 20:14:58< LordBob_> fendrin: I would first try merely playing with the spaces between rows. If this fails, then I can draw a background subset frames or something
20130414 20:15:35< fendrin> With the current box there is not much room to play with spaces.
20130414 20:15:38< shadowm> Does anyone here know CIDR mask fu?
20130414 20:15:52< LordBob_> fendrin: another idea that comes to mind would be using different tints for incons within a subset
20130414 20:17:49< fendrin> LordBob_: Maybe. But only to differentiate the sets. I mean all radiobox buttons from a set should share the same tint. 
20130414 20:18:17< shadowm> nvm, I just botched up some URIs.
20130414 20:18:24< fendrin> LordBob_: The most important thing to get for the user is: These are the tools, I can only activate one of them.
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20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * 07e825b / src/gui/widgets/ (3 files): http://git.io/y7JmKw
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::twidget::has_widget.
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * d6a3782 / src/gui/widgets/ (7 files): http://git.io/nwY-pQ
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:32< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:33< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::twidget::layout_children.
20130414 20:18:33< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * c5434d1 / src/gui/widgets/ (10 files): http://git.io/2Qrx-g
20130414 20:18:34< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:34< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:35< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::twidget::child_populate_dirty_list.
20130414 20:18:46< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:46< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:47< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::tcontrol::set_label.
20130414 20:18:47< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * 536cfa2 / src/gui/widgets/scroll_label.hpp: http://git.io/Ap5DMw
20130414 20:18:48< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:48< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:49< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::tcontrol::set_use_markup.
20130414 20:18:50< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * 09869f3 / src/gui/widgets/ (3 files): http://git.io/zWThug
20130414 20:18:50< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:50< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:51< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::tcontrol::update_canvas.
20130414 20:18:51< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * 111eefa / src/gui/widgets/ (27 files): http://git.io/_1QuKQ
20130414 20:18:53< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:53< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:18:53< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::tcontrol::get_control_type.
20130414 20:18:53< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * a8374fb / src/gui/widgets/ (4 files): http://git.io/0JJReg
20130414 20:18:54< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 20:18:54< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 20:19:45< LordBob_> fendrin: and another one yet (though more radical, and probably more work on your side) would be to relocate "utility" buttons (redo/undo, toggle grid, zoom controls, flip map,resize) somewhere else on the screen, for instance below the menu bar 
20130414 20:20:34< shadowm> Cool, I didn't have to write a whole script to handle irker from SF.net like AI0867 had to od.
20130414 20:20:37< shadowm> *do.
20130414 20:20:46< shadowm> In fact, I didn't have to edit a single file by hand.
20130414 20:21:00< fendrin> LordBob_: No, these things are easy to move. We can try out any arrangement.
20130414 20:21:26< LordBob_> Then let's maybe start with a quick few mockups
20130414 20:22:26< shadowm> Hm, but somehow irkerd didn't deliver some messages.
20130414 20:22:34< shadowm> Even though they did arrive to the filter server.
20130414 20:22:49< LordBob_> fendrin: another thing that bothers me is how there are currently gaps in the button panel
20130414 20:23:28< LordBob_> fendrin: did I omit any icons, or are some functionalities disabled ?
20130414 20:24:34< fendrin> LordBob_: I still have two empty utility buttons (still considering the current layout). Maybe cut and paste would suit here. I think you provided an image for paste but none for cut since there wasn't one before.
20130414 20:25:34< fendrin> But the final decision which utilities suit the users most is not done yet. We could also just go with what we have already and don't add more of them.
20130414 20:26:01-!- mattsc [~mattsc@d154-20-34-165.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130414 20:26:15< fendrin> LordBob_: One of the 10 places for the tools is still empty. Maybe that place will be occupied by a "define paths" utility.
20130414 20:27:29< fendrin> LordBob_: Another option to go would be with a full set of selection utilities: cut copy paste select_all select_none
20130414 20:27:46< fendrin> LordBob_: This could be disabled on resolutions where we need to save space.
20130414 20:28:19< fendrin> invert_selection
20130414 20:28:22-!- razvan_florea [~chatzilla@141.85.0.105] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130329030414]]
20130414 20:29:21< LordBob_> fendrin: whichever we do, I feel it will be best if we can introduce extra space between different subsets (tools, utilities, brush sizes, tile groups controls)
20130414 20:29:57< LordBob_> fendrin: and also that avoiding gaps will do a lot for clarity
20130414 20:30:59-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20130414 20:33:12< fendrin> LordBob_: We could also consider to introduce more utilities and group each tool with its utilities.
20130414 20:34:16< fendrin> LordBob_: The zoom and flip map buttons could be grouped in the near of the minimap.
20130414 20:34:50< fendrin> the grid button as well
20130414 20:35:33< fendrin> redo and undo are general utilities, interacting with every tool.
20130414 20:37:19< fendrin> the brush buttons can be regarded as utilities bound to the draw and select tools.
20130414 20:37:26< LordBob_> fendrin: yeah, that sounds like a good possibility as well. Provided that functionalities which interact together are regrouped, it really doesn't matter wether buttons are closely packed or not
20130414 20:38:10< LordBob_> One thing: what's the "group sapce" label in your screenshot ?
20130414 20:38:54< fendrin> LordBob_: It holds the name of the currently selected group. It is not set at startup yet, I would have to do at least one group change to get something like "water" there.
20130414 20:41:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Note that the brush buttons are disabled and grayed if neither draw nor fill is selected. Most gui system make such a dependency visible by a shared background or similar.
20130414 20:41:32< fendrin> LordBob_: I mean neither draw nor select.
20130414 20:42:11< LordBob_> Fendrin: noted. the group label might be easier to understand if the default caption was for isntance "all terrains"
20130414 20:42:47< fendrin> LordBob_: yes, the issue is a bug in the code and it is on my TODO list.
20130414 20:43:22< LordBob_> ah, forget I said anything, then
20130414 20:43:27< fendrin> :-)
20130414 20:45:51< fendrin> LordBob_: The same is true in a smaller relation for the select tool and its possible utilities. Those are disabled if no selection is made, which is always true if you have not used the selection tool at least once.
20130414 20:47:11< LordBob_> Which would be the related utilities for the selection tool ?
20130414 20:47:30< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus one could group some map related utilities to the minimap. The brushes as children of draw and select. 
20130414 20:47:56< fendrin> cut, paste, copy, invert selection, select none, select all
20130414 20:48:15< fendrin> I hope this is the complete set and I did not forgot one.
20130414 20:50:46< fendrin> LordBob_: The engine also supports fill selection, and randomize tiles in selection. 
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20130414 20:51:19< fendrin> LordBob_: And export selected coordinates to system clipboard
20130414 20:51:48< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm thinking of something else, though it might be on a completely different level in terms of complexity. Would we have the possibility of creating a space where different utility buttons are displayed depending on the currently selected tool ?
20130414 20:52:28< fendrin> I can do that.
20130414 20:53:06< fendrin> LordBob_: Good idea.
20130414 20:54:04< fendrin> LordBob_: Then let's have a space for tool specific utilities. And we need to find spaces for ones that are general.
20130414 20:54:06< LordBob_> Fendrin: Oh, I know you code wizards can do pretty much anything. But would it maybe bring unnecessary complications code-wise, or a greater risk of new bugs arising ?
20130414 20:55:07< fendrin> No. I think everything to do this is already there. If not the missing part can only be a detail.
20130414 20:55:29< LordBob_> Fendrin: because I have a long experience of being on the side of that [censored] user who asks for the moon and adds that it's really a great idea and should be easy in his uninformed opinin
20130414 20:55:48< LordBob_> *opinion
20130414 20:56:22< jfagan> Could anyone possibly help me compile wesnoth in windows I have tried everything I could think of, I followed the instructions in the forums but everytime I try to build solution in VS 2010 I get the the fatal error saying that they are missing include files even though I am sure they are there. I was told earlier to try to use linux instead but I was having even more issues with that and I would much rather work with windows on VS if possible.
20130414 20:57:37< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I have managed to code everything our little project needed so far. And this single issue should not stop us.
20130414 20:58:01< fendrin> s/should/shall
20130414 20:58:47< shadowm> 15:54:05 <LordBob_> Fendrin: Oh, I know you code wizards can do pretty much anything. <-- No, we can't. Unfortunately.
20130414 20:58:51< LordBob_> fendrin: cool, then this might be a great thing. it frees up a lot of space and may improve the clarity of the whole editor UI by a long shot :)
20130414 20:59:33< fendrin> LordBob_: Indeed. And it gives us the opportunity to have much utility buttons around.
20130414 21:00:26< shadowm> fendrin: Okay, now I have a bit more energy (although that might be because that last line is actually slightly frightening). What's up?
20130414 21:00:55< fendrin> shadowm: Well, get involved on the gui discussion with LordBob_ if you feel like it.
20130414 21:01:16< LordBob_> shadowm: yeah, tell me about that. My former job was practically built around making dumb feature requests that would get our devs to hit their heads on the wall  :s
20130414 21:01:30< shadowm> fendrin: Do I need to read _everything_?
20130414 21:02:06< fendrin> shadowm: We started about an hour ago. It is not that much.
20130414 21:03:12< fendrin> I think we can group the utilities in three sections:
20130414 21:03:20< LordBob_> shadowm: Basically, we're trying to rearrange editor utiliies and tools into more intuitive groups, and in doing so we're considering the possibility of creating a space where only the specific utilities related to a given tool would be displayed
20130414 21:04:02< LordBob_> shadowm: a kind of "tool options" window/frame/area, really
20130414 21:04:06< shadowm> The utilities.
20130414 21:04:17< shadowm> How many of them there will be?
20130414 21:04:29< fendrin> 1) Always doable and visible like zoom in, zoom out, default zoom, grid, resize, undo redo.
20130414 21:05:20< shadowm> Oh, you plan to increase the visibility of the classic "clipbaord" tools.
20130414 21:05:24< AI0867> shadowm: maybe we should use git describe instead of the hash here too?
20130414 21:05:30< shadowm> "clipboard". Spelling how do I do that.
20130414 21:05:48< shadowm> AI0867: Did you write the GitHub irker hook?
20130414 21:06:05< shadowm> AI0867: Also, if you check the filter service logs, you'll notice that some messages never arrived to this channel for some reason.
20130414 21:07:01< AI0867> yes
20130414 21:07:10< LordBob_> Shadowm: not only that. We would also want to make sure that utilities that only work with a given tool do not crowd the screen when said tool is not in use
20130414 21:07:16< AI0867> that's a bit weird
20130414 21:07:25< AI0867> maybe I'll restart irker with a higher debug level
20130414 21:08:02< LordBob_> Anyway, I have to go for a while. More on this later
20130414 21:08:04< shadowm> fendrin, LordBob_ : What utilities are there aside from the brush size buttons?
20130414 21:08:16< shadowm> Or there will be, whichever is the case.
20130414 21:08:30< fendrin> [21:04] <fendrin> 1) Always doable and visible like zoom in, zoom out, default zoom, grid, resize, undo redo.
20130414 21:08:33< shadowm> AI0867: I'll configure the hook to spam ##shadowm-test instead of here.
20130414 21:09:10< shadowm> fendrin: Those are general options and are tools by themselves.
20130414 21:09:21< shadowm> Or I am not understanding this tool/utility relationship.
20130414 21:09:58< fendrin> LordBob_ and myself call the radio button set that defines the current "mode" of the editor as tools.
20130414 21:10:14< fendrin> There can only be one tool active.
20130414 21:10:35< shadowm> AI0867: I don't see a git describe option in the hook config, only the Full Commits option.
20130414 21:10:39< fendrin> A tool makes uses of the brushes or it does not. And the tool also defines the palette if any.
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20130414 21:11:18< fendrin> Utilities are all the rest buttons. They can be bound to one of the tools or be independent. 
20130414 21:11:26< shadowm> fendrin: Right. Undo/Redo, the zoom controls and the grid toggle (although I'm not sure that needs to be shown in the UI) are not tools then.
20130414 21:11:31< fendrin> Woud be nice to have a working name for the two groups.
20130414 21:11:34< AI0867> shadowm: yeah, I don't think I ever implemented that
20130414 21:11:46< shadowm> AI0867: Okay.
20130414 21:11:55< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * 07e825b / src/gui/widgets/ (3 files): http://git.io/y7JmKw
20130414 21:11:56< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 21:11:56< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 21:11:57< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::twidget::has_widget.
20130414 21:11:57< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * d6a3782 / src/gui/widgets/ (7 files): http://git.io/nwY-pQ
20130414 21:11:58< irker937> Wesnoth: Add C++11 override markers.
20130414 21:11:58< irker937> Wesnoth:
20130414 21:11:59< irker937> Wesnoth: Adds the markers for gui2::twidget::layout_children.
20130414 21:11:59< irker937> Wesnoth: Mark de Wever :master * c5434d1 / src/gui/widgets/ (10 files): http://git.io/2Qrx-g
20130414 21:12:00-ChanServ:#wesnoth-dev- shadowm (shadowmaster) quieted *!*@ai0867.net
20130414 21:12:03-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+q *!*@ai0867.net] by ChanServ
20130414 21:12:08< shadowm> Sorry, I forgot to change something.
20130414 21:12:34-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [-q *!*@ai0867.net] by ChanServ
20130414 21:14:18< fendrin> LordBob_: Toolities und Utilities.
20130414 21:14:28< fendrin> shadowm: ^
20130414 21:16:07< shadowm> ... toolities.
20130414 21:16:36< shadowm> I'm sorry, but I cannot condone such inhumane mistreatment of the English language.
20130414 21:17:31< shadowm> fendrin: Tools, tool options (e.g. brush size), and... global option thingies.
20130414 21:17:46< shadowm> I mean, undo/redo, grid, zoom in/out/1:1 aren't even editor-specific.
20130414 21:18:42< shadowm> They are more like maybe "interface" (as in UI) controls.
20130414 21:18:47< shadowm> Except for undo/redo, which are more like actions.
20130414 21:18:57< shadowm> Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for.
20130414 21:19:40< shadowm> You have actions (undo/redo, grid toggle, zoom in/out/1:1), editor tools (brush, bucket fill, set starting position, etc.), and editor tool options (brush size, and whatever else will come next).
20130414 21:19:46< fendrin> Okay, then we have tools, utilities (bound to a tool) and actions.
20130414 21:20:06< shadowm> They could also be editor tool properties.
20130414 21:20:14< fendrin> Oh, s/utilities/ tool actions
20130414 21:20:26< fendrin> global actions and tool actions.
20130414 21:20:35< shadowm> No, I don't think the brush size for the brush tool is a "tool action".
20130414 21:20:49< shadowm> But it is indeed an attribute or property of the tool (brush).
20130414 21:21:22< shadowm> On the other hand, if your intention was for me to help you with naming things, then you should really realize that naming things is not my thing.
20130414 21:21:44< fendrin> nope, this names won't show up. They are just for us to talk about the matter.
20130414 21:21:46< fendrin> Working names.
20130414 21:22:09< shadowm> Hm, ok.
20130414 21:22:18< shadowm> So we are naming concepts.
20130414 21:22:22< fendrin> indeed
20130414 21:24:48-!- akshaydixi [~akshay@115.248.50.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20130414 21:26:20< fendrin> LordBob_: Still around?
20130414 21:27:38-!- beetlenaut [~dan@cpe-98-148-96-78.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
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20130414 21:31:46< LordBob_> fendrin: back
20130414 21:32:19< fendrin> LordBob_: You are going to work on a mockup with rearranged buttons, right?
20130414 21:34:35< LordBob_> fendrin, shadowm: several mockups, even
20130414 21:35:05< LordBob_> hopefully, this should make things easier to discuss
20130414 21:37:23< LordBob_> fendrin; before deving too far into conceptions, though, I think we should work on answering shadowm 's first query: how many of these tool properties/options/-spectific actions will there be ?
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20130414 21:37:29< LordBob_> *concepts
20130414 21:38:08< LordBob_> for instance, you mention a wide range of actions rele
20130414 21:38:15< LordBob_> related to the slector tool
20130414 21:39:07< LordBob_> based on that, I am under the impression that the editor has the capacity to do a lot more that just what the existing buttons show. Is that correct ?
20130414 21:39:42< fendrin> LordBob_: You can get an overview of what the editor is able to do when you look at the hotkeys bindings.
20130414 21:40:04< shadowm> There are also some useful common options restricted to the dropdown menus atm, such as cut, copy, and paste.
20130414 21:40:11< shadowm> Select all/none.
20130414 21:40:36< fendrin> LordBob_: I guess the select tool will stay the one with the most possible actions.
20130414 21:41:04< fendrin> LordBob_: cut, paste and copy seem to be useful. Also the invert all and none.
20130414 21:41:26< fendrin> LordBob_: Since the select tool also uses the brushes we have them around as well.
20130414 21:42:26< fendrin> LordBob_: What if we say that the pure tool related actions can take a whole row, 5 buttons fit there.
20130414 21:42:48< fendrin> LordBob_: Then I would choose copy, paste, cut, invert and none for the select tool.
20130414 21:42:54< LordBob_> okay; so, the next step should be to decide which of these UI actions are used often enough to warrant adding them as permanent buttons
20130414 21:43:03< LordBob_> (which is pretty much done, I'd say)
20130414 21:43:43< fendrin> LordBob_: That gives me the freedom to offer 5 actions for the unit tool for example. I am sure that I can use them.
20130414 21:44:08< LordBob_> next, we define which (if any) of the useful common options should be added as tool-specific property/action/option buttons
20130414 21:44:27< shadowm> As a cautionary note: one should be very careful about not spamming toolbars with too many buttons. A balance needs to be achieved; we don't want to look like a typical KDE application, just as we don't want to look like a typical GNOME application.
20130414 21:44:34< LordBob_> Fendrin: overal, a single row of 5 tool-specific buttons seems reasonable
20130414 21:46:25< fendrin> An extra row for the brushes.
20130414 21:46:36< fendrin> I guess we can leave them around at all states.
20130414 21:46:41< LordBob_> Shadowm: of course. Part of the current effort is precisely trying to reduce the number of buttons that are simultaneously displayed
20130414 21:52:58< LordBob_> fendrin: just to be sure: the select tool also makes use of the brush tip buttons ?
20130414 21:53:12< fendrin> yes
20130414 21:56:39< LordBob_> fendrin: so, this one would require altogether 10 tool-specific buttons, where most other tools can have 0-5 ?
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20130414 21:57:51< fendrin> LordBob_: The zoom/(u/r)edo/grid/switch map buttons are not editor specific, If you group them around the minimap we could reuse the design to offer an enhanced game gui.
20130414 21:58:55< fendrin> LordBob_: The draw tool also uses the brushes + possible extra actions.
20130414 21:59:53< LordBob_> Fendrin: noted. however, grouping buttons with the minimap other than via an extra row will most likely require a smaller minimap or wider sidebar (or tiny icons)
20130414 22:00:02< fendrin> LordBob_: And, maybe the soundsource tool will feature brushes as well + extra actions.
20130414 22:00:47< fendrin> LordBob_: We already have a wider sidebar in the editor. I plan to port it to the game. Most screens are either widescreen or offer enough space anyway.
20130414 22:01:16< mordante> I'm off night
20130414 22:01:21< fendrin> mordante: bye
20130414 22:01:24< LordBob_> Fendrin: as for tool options, in this case let's say the tool-specific buttons zone will be large enough to accomodate 10 buttons, or (as you suggested)we make the brush sizes permanent
20130414 22:01:31< LordBob_> mordante: night
20130414 22:01:35-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20130414 22:01:55< LordBob_> *brush sizes buttons permanently displayed
20130414 22:02:14< Darko> Hello everyone, does any of you know when can i find user "Crab_"  online ?
20130414 22:02:23< fendrin> wesbot: seen crab_?
20130414 22:02:24< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 2d 4h ago.  2d 3h ago they left with the message: Quit: Crab_
20130414 22:03:44< Darko> 2d , thats a long time :D , can i reach him/her in any other way ? or do i have to wait here till i catch him/her online ?
20130414 22:03:46< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, either we have 10 (2 rows) with variable buttons or we go with 5 (one row) and the permanent brush row.
20130414 22:04:01< fendrin> Darko: You can write a forum pm.
20130414 22:04:27< fendrin> LordBob_: I would go with a permanent brush one.
20130414 22:05:06< fendrin> LordBob_: Note that the row will stay empty in case a tool does not offer any actions.
20130414 22:05:14< Darko> i don't know how would i do that ? go to the forums and write where exactly ? (sorry for inconvenience )
20130414 22:05:42< shadowm> http://r.wesnoth.org/uCrab
20130414 22:05:52< LordBob_> fendrin: Then let it be so. Anyway, I don't think having a tool with 10 specific options would be a good idea
20130414 22:06:01< shadowm> Darko: If you are logged in, you will be able to see his profile and choose the "send private message" option there.  ^
20130414 22:06:15< Darko> okay , thanks a lot :)
20130414 22:06:30< LordBob_> fendrin: not to mention the space wasted by two empty rows
20130414 22:07:19< fendrin> LordBob_: Please consider to add a time of day image to the sidebar as well.
20130414 22:07:32< shadowm> Uh.
20130414 22:07:48< shadowm> The editor's concept of ToD is nigh nonexistent.
20130414 22:08:05< LordBob_> Fendrin: that's something I would save for a GUI facelift
20130414 22:08:24< shadowm> At best you have a lighting configuration that just happens to match one of the presets provided from the mainline ToDs.
20130414 22:08:27< fendrin> LordBob_: Aren't we doing a GUI facelift.
20130414 22:08:30< fendrin> ?
20130414 22:08:45< shadowm> But AFAIK it doesn't really know about ToDs (e.g. for terrain builder rules, etc.)
20130414 22:09:49< fendrin> shadowm: Well, the current editor.
20130414 22:09:50< LordBob_> Fendrin: I am hoping we will be in a near future, but this doesn't justify adding irrelevant functionalities in the editor, don't you think ?
20130414 22:10:18< fendrin> LordBob_: I have a working prototype of the editor with ToD support.
20130414 22:10:29< shadowm> fendrin: How would you handle ToDs in the case of arbitrary lighting configurations?
20130414 22:10:51-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-212-174.biatv.hu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
20130414 22:10:53< fendrin> shadowm: The editor will be able to save and load time of day configurations.
20130414 22:11:02< LordBob_> Fendrin; what purpose would it serve, for instance ?
20130414 22:11:17< shadowm> fendrin: Will we still be able to just play around with the lighting sliders?
20130414 22:11:22< LordBob_> I mean, what is the user's need for ToD when he is editing a map 
20130414 22:11:34< LordBob_> ?
20130414 22:11:37< shadowm> Writing and loading WML for such a small thing seems inconvenient.
20130414 22:11:45< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, at the end the editor will save complete and ready to play scenarios.
20130414 22:12:02< fendrin> shadowm: I am loading and writing a lot WML already.
20130414 22:12:21< shadowm> For context, the editor right now and for the last few years has supposrted arbitrarily setting the lighting configuration in the Editor Settings dialog.
20130414 22:12:28< shadowm> *supported
20130414 22:12:49< shadowm> This is extremely useful to me to play around with lighting without having to write the WML beforehand.
20130414 22:13:31< shadowm> It's also useful for terrain artists to see what their graphics look like under different lighting settings.
20130414 22:13:58< shadowm> (Note that whenever I say "lighting", I actually mean "tint", but we call it "lighting" in the UI and code anyway.)
20130414 22:13:59 * LordBob_ discovers new functionalities of the editor everyday. Weeee
20130414 22:15:16< fendrin> shadowm: The dialog will stay the same. And the presets from mainline will be available. Additional a user of the editor can define own [time_of_day]s and save them to the map's cfg file.
20130414 22:15:22< shadowm> Arguably, having full ToD support wouldn't add much in most cases since ToD terrain rules are not used in mainline since 0.9.0 or so, and probably rarely used in UMC.
20130414 22:15:56< shadowm> fendrin: The current tag name is 'time'.
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20130414 22:16:07< LordBob_> Fendrin: so, if I got it right, you are proposing to place somewhere on the sidebar a control that would perform the function shadowm just described, or is it more than that ? 
20130414 22:16:54< fendrin> LordBob_: No, the sidebar should just feature the tod image, like it is in the game. I will remove this image at small resolutions.
20130414 22:16:55< LordBob_> (and by function, I was refering to the tint adjustment bit)
20130414 22:18:45< LordBob_> then, I am tempted to say that this is purely decorative and could be done instead with a simple label placed in the menu bar or somewhere else on the screen (ToD images occupy valuable space)
20130414 22:20:21< LordBob_> fendrin: since you mention resolutions, what would be the min/max/avergae resolutions which we're working with ? It would especially help in visualizing how much space I can use in the mock-ups
20130414 22:20:40< fendrin> LordBob_: 800x480
20130414 22:21:09< shadowm> Mainline's minimum supported resolution is 800x480. No idea about the Android or iOS ports, which aren't mainline _yet_.
20130414 22:21:22< fendrin> LordBob_: But we already remove some gui elements at this resolution.
20130414 22:21:26< shadowm> Wheeeee ssh lag.
20130414 22:22:06< shadowm> We tend to use 1024x768 as an "average" reference for most things.
20130414 22:22:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus please regard 1024x768 as the current default resolution.
20130414 22:22:27< LordBob_> Thanks guys, duly noted
20130414 22:22:51< shadowm> A maximum resolution would be theoretical and it'd depend on the hardware and software configuration (e.g. you could probably have Wesnoth span four full HD monitors or sth).
20130414 22:22:56< fendrin> LordBob_: At this resolution every gui element should be visible. Lower resolution means that we modify.
20130414 22:23:27< shadowm> Although I imagine Wesnoth would slow down to a crawl on most machines past the 4096 barrier.
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20130414 22:24:37< shadowm> I for one was stuck with 1280x800 laptop panels for years until very recently. Now I use a 1920x1080 monitor with my new, proper, and adequate desktop box.
20130414 22:24:56< LordBob_> Heh, Wesnoth in 4096. Now that'd be fun, or not. Mniature icons lost in a huuuuge screen ^^;;; 
20130414 22:25:47< LordBob_> Ok, so here's me properly informed of screen resolutions
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20130414 22:26:53< fendrin> LordBob_: If you have a look at 1024x768, the current palette is able to hold every group without scrolling except cave and all (of course).
20130414 22:27:07< LordBob_> Now, regarding the sidebar: in rearranging its content, do we consider the possibility of reducing the space dedicated to the terrain/unit (/items ?) palette ?
20130414 22:27:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus I think that we have plenty of space to waste.
20130414 22:28:09< LordBob_> Good to know :)
20130414 22:28:50< fendrin> LordBob_: At lower resolutions all the action buttons can get lost since their actions are in some menu.
20130414 22:29:42< LordBob_> Okay. Then i'll first work on 1024*768 mock-ups. Once we're agreed on these, there'll be time to decide what's to remove in lower res 
20130414 22:29:56< fendrin> yupp
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20130414 22:31:19< LordBob_> But I still think the ToD info would better be displayed as a label: unlike the pictures, it's unmistakeable and it will avoid crowding an already well-filled sidebar
20130414 22:31:29< LordBob_> *text label
20130414 22:32:19< LordBob_> or, failing that, a tiny icon
20130414 22:32:50< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes. Agreed. The tod image is a little to much. I have hoped for a design that can be used for both, the game and the editor
20130414 22:32:51< LordBob_> but I'd avoid anything that occupies the vertical space of an entire row 
20130414 22:33:25< LordBob_> Oh, don't worry, I'm all for giving the game a sexier ToD display ^^
20130414 22:34:41< LordBob_> If by luck we come up with something that is both clever and small in size, there'll still be time to apply it to the editor
20130414 22:43:05< razvan_florea> Hello everybody!
20130414 22:43:30< razvan_florea> Does anybody know when can I find Crab_ online on irc?
20130414 22:43:50< razvan_florea> I want to speak with him about GSOC projects
20130414 22:43:58< mattsc> zookeeper: once that patch by flix goes through, we should make sure that none of the mainline scenarios using goto_x/y are affected.  I doubt that that's the case, if anything things should get better, but better safe than sorry.
20130414 22:44:32< mattsc> I'm willing to do the testing, but if you had any start-of-scenario saves for these scenarios, that would be very helpful: http://pastebin.com/MW2ATh2W
20130414 22:45:18< mattsc> Alarantalara: I assume you'd have one for Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/08_Out_of_the_Frying_Pan.cfg?
20130414 22:46:11< mattsc> razvan_florea: Crab_ has been around recently during daytime in Europe on weekdays.  It looks like he's busy otherwise during this weekend.
20130414 22:46:58< mattsc> razvan_florea: You can also contact him by forum PM.  Or, if you have a more general question, ask here and somebody else might be able to help.
20130414 22:47:39< razvan_florea> So, I should i find him from tomorrow on?
20130414 22:48:14< mattsc> razvan_florea: well, there's a good chance, but no guarantee.  We cannot speak for him.
20130414 22:48:45< razvan_florea> I understand, thanks
20130414 22:50:27< LordBob_> fendrin: another question: can the dimensions of the minimap change, and/or its shape ?
20130414 22:50:39< fendrin> LordBob_: Sure
20130414 22:50:52< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, it still needs to be a square.
20130414 22:51:01< LordBob_> Duly noted
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20130414 22:52:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Maybe you must know something.
20130414 22:52:34< LordBob_> yes ?
20130414 22:53:43< LordBob_> fendrin: listening
20130414 22:53:43< fendrin> LordBob_: Say you create a quadratic map. It will be displayed like the north-south distance is larger.
20130414 22:54:05< fendrin> LordBob_: That is caused by the hex geometry.
20130414 22:54:21< fendrin> LordBob_: Other hex based games use narrow hex fields to compensate.
20130414 22:54:57< fendrin> LordBob_: We have hexes that feature equal sized borders and thus we have a disarranged geometry.
20130414 22:55:28< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus, to display a square map your minimap is smaller than tall.
20130414 22:55:41< LordBob_> in other words, a map that is a square in its dimensions appears as a rectangle on the minimap
20130414 22:55:50< fendrin> yes
20130414 22:56:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Meaning, the minimap should be larger.
20130414 22:56:13< LordBob_> but the display area of the minimap still has to be a square ?
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20130414 22:56:21< fendrin> larger in vertical dimension.
20130414 22:57:11< fendrin> LordBob_: No, it can be a rectangle.
20130414 22:57:26< LordBob_> now *that* would be nice; For instance, it might free some space for a column of buttons next to the minimap
20130414 22:57:38< fendrin> LordBob_: I used the wrong word. Which brought me to the thoughts about hex field geometry.
20130414 22:58:18< LordBob_> (though maybe it will just *look* better with a square. We will see...
20130414 22:58:47< fendrin> :-)
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20130414 23:02:49< LordBob_> fendrin: can you tell me again what would the editor actions (i.e non-tool-specific, permanent buttons) be ? so far, I've got zoom +/-/1:1, grid, and flip for map actions, and undo/redo for editor actions
20130414 23:03:49< fendrin> LordBob_: resize_map
20130414 23:03:58< LordBob_> (on a side note, I am simply amazed by the flow of candidates that GSoC keeps sending our way. I wish we had something similar for art) 
20130414 23:04:53< fendrin> LordBob_: We should organize the "Wesnoth Summer of Art" better :-)
20130414 23:05:10-!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-76-202-16-62.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze]
20130414 23:05:49< shadowm> We had that once and Jetrel decided to never do it again for reasons I don't recall atm.
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20130414 23:06:41< zookeeper> mattsc, i don't think i have any of those saves, not for any nearly recent version anyway
20130414 23:06:45< LordBob_> weren't those the commissions done by Kitty and tSI ? Or was that even before
20130414 23:06:54< kelpy> on that note, any idea how many GSoC canidates you guys will be accepting?
20130414 23:07:07< shadowm> LordBob_: Yes, kitty and TSI were in it.
20130414 23:07:21< shadowm> Also some other person whose name escapes me atm.
20130414 23:07:24< fendrin> kelpy: So far we only have 2 Mentors this year. 
20130414 23:07:57< fendrin> shadowm: Valkier
20130414 23:08:01< cristianpalianos> Are you expecting more mentors to join?
20130414 23:08:08< shadowm> fendrin: No, not that guy, but he was also in.
20130414 23:08:15< kelpy> fendrin: does 2 mentors = 2 students?
20130414 23:08:20< fendrin> kelpy: yes
20130414 23:08:21< shadowm> fendrin: I omited him on purpose.
20130414 23:08:43< fendrin> cristianpalianos: No, sadly not.
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20130414 23:13:04< Mr_FauxPas> I kind of wonder, Wesnoth is a mature project. How many more new features will it get if future ?
20130414 23:13:33< LordBob_> Shadowm: as far as I remember, Kiity and TSI were the only condidates accepted for WSoA, at least in 2009
20130414 23:13:55< shadowm> LordBob_: We can see who is remembering wrong.
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20130414 23:14:10< mattsc> zookeeper: okay, thanks.
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20130414 23:14:23< LordBob_> shadowm: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25836#p364009
20130414 23:14:34< shadowm> LordBob_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30884
20130414 23:15:01< shadowm> So I was remembering wrong. The WSAS commissions are listed in the first post.
20130414 23:15:01< mattsc> Does anybody else have recent saves of these scenarios?  http://pastebin.com/MW2ATh2W
20130414 23:16:34< mattsc> kelpy: last year Crab_ mentored 2 students, so it might be 3 total, but probably not more than that.
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20130414 23:18:33< LordBob_> shadowm: now that you mention it, though, maybe Jetrel did at some point bring up that it was a pain to have to work art commissions over a (relatively) short period of time
20130414 23:18:53< shadowm> Mr_FauxPas: Even though Wesnoth is a mature project, there are many things that still remain to be done according to the ever evolving needs of both players and content creators, things that were done wrong and need to be redone, and things that no longer scale well for our current needs and need to be replaced (e.g. the add-ons server).
20130414 23:18:56< LordBob_> Dunno if this had any weight in his decision, though
20130414 23:19:22< shadowm> Mr_FauxPas: So I'd say there's a lot of future left for Wesnoth. Perhaps more than I'm currently comfortable with, in fact.
20130414 23:19:33< shadowm> This reminds me I've been meaning to ask boucman something.
20130414 23:20:07< boucman> yes ?
20130414 23:20:11< shadowm> boucman: I remember that some years ago we had a particle system engine project as part of GSoC and it was developed out-of-tree. Whatever happened to that and will it ever land in production=
20130414 23:20:15< shadowm> *?
20130414 23:20:24< shadowm> Or was that just a neat time and money sink for Google.
20130414 23:20:40< boucman> shadowm: it was last year, and wasn't successfull
20130414 23:20:50< boucman> so yeah, sink :(
20130414 23:21:00< shadowm> Oh, I don't remember that student being failed.
20130414 23:21:03< shadowm> What was the problem?
20130414 23:21:56< LordBob_> fendrin: sorry to bother again, but did you mean resize map as an editor action, or minimap action ?
20130414 23:22:26< shadowm> LordBob_: Maybe. As you can see in the thread in the staff forum, TSI's work on the drakes continued after WSAS.
20130414 23:23:04< Mr_FauxPas> The wildest idea I had about Wesnoth was during a Tower Defense multiplayer game... Making it possible to play Wesnoth in more real-time mode. But then it wouldn't be Wesnoth :P
20130414 23:23:07< shadowm> You can also see Jetrel hasn't kept that thread up to date with the latest commissions.
20130414 23:23:37< LordBob_> I can see that, yes
20130414 23:24:18< shadowm> Jetrel in general is allergic to "meta" work like that, and I can't say I'd blame him.
20130414 23:24:30< shadowm> s/'d//
20130414 23:25:13< shadowm> Sometimes I try to be organized like that for my own projects and the result turns out be disappointing because I spend more time thinking about the organization rather than the actual grunt work.
20130414 23:25:48< LordBob_> Aye, that's a frustration I can relate to
20130414 23:25:56< fendrin> LordBob_: resize map is a editor specific minimap action, while zoom and undos are doable in the game as well. still zoom is somehow map specific.
20130414 23:27:37< shadowm> boucman: I for one was really looking forward to eventually being able to do fancy visual effects without having to make a bunch of graphics through poorly documented procedures which eventually result in poor maintainability.
20130414 23:27:57< boucman> yeah :(
20130414 23:28:17< shadowm> Been there, done that. Nowadays I just abstain from making non-pixely halos.
20130414 23:28:48< LordBob_> fendrin: then which functions would you pick as "general editor actions" to display permanently ? So far it's only undo/redo
20130414 23:29:24< fendrin> LordBob_: No, undo/redo are also game actions.
20130414 23:30:05< fendrin> LordBob_: But I would display undo/redo/zoom +/1/1:1 and grid as always available actions.
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20130414 23:30:10< fendrin> and resize
20130414 23:30:13< LordBob_> Okay, I am (slooooowwly) getting the hang of this 
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20130414 23:30:53< fendrin> LordBob_: Everything shared action, could be featured on the same position in the revised game gui as well.
20130414 23:31:11< LordBob_> What I'd like to do, then, is to place near the minimap buttons that only concern display, such as zoom and grid
20130414 23:31:33< fendrin> and resize
20130414 23:31:40< fendrin> ?
20130414 23:31:41< LordBob_> Does flip enter this category, and is it editor-specific ?
20130414 23:31:54< fendrin> flip is not implemented yet
20130414 23:32:07< fendrin> it flips the map in the editor while in the game it only flips the viewpoint.
20130414 23:32:10< LordBob_> resize is editor-specific and completely changes the map, doesn't it ?
20130414 23:32:16< fendrin> yes
20130414 23:33:09< LordBob_> so maybe flip can go near the minimap. As for resize...I'd rather place it in a general-purpose bar
20130414 23:33:37< fendrin> yes
20130414 23:33:56< LordBob_> or maybe it can't. If the same button as different effects in game and in the editor, it might be best to place it in different menus as well
20130414 23:34:11< fendrin> Well, the result is the same.
20130414 23:34:14< shadowm> Wait.
20130414 23:34:18< fendrin> You see the map being flipped.
20130414 23:34:29< shadowm> fendrin: You want to be able to flip the gamemap in-game?
20130414 23:34:39< fendrin> yes, why not?
20130414 23:34:49< shadowm> No, the first question is: why?
20130414 23:35:24< fendrin> Perspective change really gives me an advantage. I am getting situations better if I can view from different angles. 
20130414 23:35:25< LordBob_> Now that you mention it...wouldn't it utterly confuse the player in a game here the point of view hardly matters anyway ?
20130414 23:35:58< shadowm> fendrin: Uh.
20130414 23:36:21< LordBob_> I can understand this in a 3D and/or tricky camera setting; But even in a strategy game ?
20130414 23:36:25< shadowm> How would you implement the in-game flip? By just flipping the rendered map around?
20130414 23:36:40< fendrin> yes
20130414 23:37:12< shadowm> Because otherwise it'd be very easy to screw up builder rules and introduce an insane amount of complexity to pretty much everything under the hood.
20130414 23:37:28< shadowm> In fact, even flipping the rendered map around still raises a lot of questions.
20130414 23:37:32< zookeeper> good grief. where do you come up with these ideas? D:
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20130414 23:38:20< fendrin> It was somewhere on the forum.
20130414 23:38:50< shadowm> What I mean is that the game isn't just a map of hexes rendered in a neat fashion following a complicated set of rules.
20130414 23:39:00< shadowm> There are also units, and items, and haloes, and shroud, and fog.
20130414 23:39:50< fendrin> Indeed.
20130414 23:40:07< shadowm> So you'd need to introduce a ridiculous amount of complexity to the underlying code for all those "layers" for very little gain.
20130414 23:41:00< fendrin> shadowm: Wait, all this stuff is done on hex fields and their coordinates don't change. 1/1 is still 1/1.
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20130414 23:41:18< fendrin> shadowm: Just that the position on the screen is different. 
20130414 23:41:23< shadowm> Exactly.
20130414 23:41:30< shadowm> And that affects a lot of things as I said above.
20130414 23:41:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20130414 23:42:09< fendrin> Well, if this isn't separated in different layers then it is time to do it.
20130414 23:42:50< fendrin> But this isn't the problem now.
20130414 23:42:50< shadowm> Okasy, you know what, I'll just step aside... and... kind of let you discuss that with mordante or whoever when the time comes.
20130414 23:42:54< shadowm> *Okay
20130414 23:43:00< fendrin> sure
20130414 23:43:21< LordBob_> fendrin: back to the flip button: in the editor, would it only change the display, or would it also alter the actual geography ?
20130414 23:43:30< fendrin> There was a working flip map implementation in the editor once, thus the item is still left.
20130414 23:43:43< fendrin> LordBob_: It would change the actual geography.
20130414 23:43:46< Mr_FauxPas> Hm. And how about making the map look like 3D adventure maps from GameBoy Advenced games .. >) ?
20130414 23:44:07< shadowm> esr: Not to put pressure on you or anything, but... how is it going there?
20130414 23:44:55< LordBob_> fendrin: then I suggest we place it in different menus, lest it causes confusion
20130414 23:47:05< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay
20130414 23:49:01< LordBob_> Fendrin: here's what I have so far: http://imagebin.org/254036
20130414 23:49:29< esr> shadowm: Working on it.  Don't expect results soon; the file treanfers, compression overhead, and everything else pile up fast.
20130414 23:49:34< LordBob_> Neither button listing nor bar positions are final, though
20130414 23:49:55< shadowm> esr: I assume you are trying to upload a tarball to baldras?
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20130414 23:50:39< LordBob_> Fendrin: ideally, I'd relocate display-oriented actions in a columwn on the right side of the minimap
20130414 23:51:34< fendrin> LordBob_: Hmmm, that is the gui layout of the replay screen.
20130414 23:51:36< LordBob_> Fendrin: there would also be an additional row of tool options below the brush tip buttons
20130414 23:52:14< LordBob_> Is that a good thing ?
20130414 23:53:30< LordBob_> Fendrin: anyway, I'll resume work on those mockups tomorrow; now is the time for sleep.
20130414 23:53:37< LordBob_> Good night people
20130414 23:53:46< fendrin> LordBob_: bye
20130414 23:53:51< esr> Yes, I did.
20130414 23:54:03< esr> Sorry, wrong window.
20130414 23:54:25-!- LordBob_ [~chatzilla@2a01:e34:ee82:47e0:21e:c2ff:fe01:261f] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130326150557]]
20130414 23:54:49< Ivanovic> esr: so are you uploading the uncompressed git to baldras now to compress it there?
20130414 23:55:02< Ivanovic> that machine should have enough diskspace, memory and cpu power to get the job done
20130414 23:55:14< Ivanovic> and from there upoad to github should be reasonable fast, too
20130414 23:55:58< esr> No.  The last time I tried that, the file transfer took forever.  So I bought mor RAM for my machine and did the production pack here.
20130414 23:58:24< shadowm> Just noting that the GitHub upload from baldras was extremely fast.
20130414 23:58:41< Ivanovic> shadowm: but uploading 10GB *TO* baldras can take ages
20130414 23:58:42< shadowm> The part that took forever was waiting for the sync step after the upload.
20130414 23:58:53< Ivanovic> there the upload of 2GB to github might be the better solution
20130414 23:59:02< shadowm> Ivanovic: Well, ideally one would try to tarball it with some light settings.
20130414 23:59:39< shadowm> Wait.
--- Log closed Mon Apr 15 00:00:01 2013