--- Log opened Tue Apr 16 00:00:12 2013
20130416 00:00:43< fendrin> LordBob_: Anyway, playing the game on a handheld like the pandora with such a resolution might be fine, but I doubt that a campaign developer won't use a proper computer.
20130416 00:01:26< LordBob_> yeah. Even tablets have a greater resolution these days, so i wouldn't worry about it too much either
20130416 00:03:07< fendrin> LordBob_: Older versions of Wesnoth feature a broken editor gui anyway. At 800x480 there was no room for the palette to display a single item. Thus terrain choosing is impossible.
20130416 00:03:57< LordBob_> fendrin: ok, so it's definitely an improvement :)
20130416 00:04:06< fendrin> yepp
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20130416 00:04:35< LordBob_> and I take it in larger resolutions there will be more space between button rows ?
20130416 00:05:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Not yet, but than be done easily.
20130416 00:06:08< fendrin> s/than/that can
20130416 00:07:54< fendrin> LordBob_: But I do not worry about the vertical space. It is the horizontal that makes everything dense.
20130416 00:08:02< fendrin> I mean the size of the sidebar.
20130416 00:08:27< fendrin> I would like to have at least 2 pixels between the buttons. Currently it is only one.
20130416 00:09:02< LordBob_> Fendrin: not only that; vertical spaces between tools, tool options and the terrain palette really help carry the message that they're distinct subsets
20130416 00:09:42-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20130416 00:10:06< LordBob_> See the mockups: it's not only about even spaces everywhere, but also wider spaces between different sets
20130416 00:10:23< fendrin> LordBob_: The editor's sidebar did already grow some pixels in the horizontal compared to the game one.
20130416 00:10:44< fendrin> LordBob_: Just giving it some more space would solve the problem.
20130416 00:11:40< fendrin> LordBob_: It is just that the current size fits nicely with a 4 item palette at half size (36sized items) or a 2 item palette at fill size (72sized items)
20130416 00:13:00< LordBob_> fendrin: I think we need to do both. 
20130416 00:13:38< LordBob_> (add horizontal space, _and_ vertical space at a few well-chosen locations)
20130416 00:14:18< fendrin> LordBob_: Or we use the 25 icons. Their overlays will fit much better in menues.
20130416 00:15:41< LordBob_> Fendrin: wait...do you mean, going back to 25 pix icons everywhere ?
20130416 00:15:49< LordBob_> or only in menus ?
20130416 00:16:12< Darko> so should i try again here in the channel , tomorrow at this time ?
20130416 00:16:27< Darko> or should i come earlier ? because of time differences ..
20130416 00:17:29< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, if we go back to 25 everywhere there will be no more space problems.
20130416 00:18:02< fendrin> Darko: Depends on who you want to talk to.
20130416 00:18:33< Darko> it seems that shadowm is the one to talk to about activating accounts 
20130416 00:19:18< fendrin> Darko: shadowm lives in Chile. 
20130416 00:19:54< Darko> hmm okay , i will check it out , thank you :) , and thank you all
20130416 00:20:20< fendrin> Darko: He is most likely available soon.
20130416 00:20:45< LordBob_> fendrin: if we do that, though, we loose the benefice of clearer icons for larger screens. :s
20130416 00:21:13< LordBob_> How about using different icon/button sizes on lower resolutions ?
20130416 00:21:22< fendrin> LordBob_: Can be done.
20130416 00:22:21< Darko> @fendrin , yeah i checked the time zone , but now its 12:21 am , i will try again in a better timing 
20130416 00:22:44< fendrin> Darko: Where are you from?
20130416 00:23:00< Darko> @fendrin i am from Egypt 
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20130416 00:23:25< fendrin> LordBob_: The current menu used icons are 18 pixels high.
20130416 00:23:37< LordBob_> fendrin: let's do it, then. Since I'm going to make several sets anyway, we might as well add one more 
20130416 00:24:21< LordBob_> speaking of menu icons, there wasn't a menu on the screenshot. Would you have one somewhere ?
20130416 00:25:07< fendrin> LordBob_: I will create one at once.
20130416 00:25:54< fendrin> LordBob_: Do you want one with the 30 pixel overlays?
20130416 00:26:12< LordBob_> you mean, in the menus ?
20130416 00:26:19< fendrin> yes
20130416 00:26:37< fendrin> or just a menu with the old 18 pixel icons?
20130416 00:26:39< LordBob_> nah; We already know that will be too large
20130416 00:26:46< LordBob_> So, 18 pixels
20130416 00:28:12< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/254178
20130416 00:28:20< fendrin> LordBob_: The checkboxes
20130416 00:32:35< LordBob_> fendrin: they're the 18 pixels for menu icons ?
20130416 00:32:36< jetrel2> Anybody know how to do an rsync where it will absolutely, positively always overwrite the receiver?
20130416 00:32:49< jetrel2> This should be really simple, and it's driving me batty.
20130416 00:33:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, they are also used in dialogs. It is just that their size matches the font and thus the line with the icon is not drawn bigger than items without icon.
20130416 00:34:22< LordBob_> fendrin: ok
20130416 00:34:47< LordBob_> Fendrin: if I sum it up, we need the following
20130416 00:34:55< LordBob_> 18 pix icons for menus
20130416 00:35:05< LordBob_> 25 pix icons for small resolutions
20130416 00:35:12< LordBob_> 30 pix for large resolutions
20130416 00:35:21< LordBob_> 60 pix for the future
20130416 00:35:27< fendrin> LordBob_: In an ideal world, we would support adjusting font sizes (remember visual impaired persons) and vector graphic icons that scale perfectly.
20130416 00:35:45< LordBob_> and 512 just for the show, which will most likely be my working size
20130416 00:36:02< Darko> okay i am out , thanks everyone :)
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20130416 00:36:29< LordBob_> maybe we're not yet ready for vector graphics :p
20130416 00:36:40< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, another problem to code around.
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20130416 00:37:17< LordBob_> nt nt, let us not come up with two new problems for every idea we consider :p
20130416 00:37:22< fendrin> LordBob_: All I need is a library that takes a vector image file and renders into a sdl surface. Might be available and easy to put in place.
20130416 00:37:37< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, vector graphics would solve a lot of our problems.
20130416 00:38:08< fendrin> LordBob_: The question is if we have any artists that can produce vector art.
20130416 00:38:22< fendrin> s/that/who
20130416 00:38:52< LordBob_> Fendrin: I don't doubt the code. What I'm worried about is the part where I try to create vector art for every single bit of interface used in Wesnoth
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20130416 00:39:15< LordBob_> With any luck, this might just get done by the year 2050
20130416 00:39:50< LordBob_> When the rest of the world will already have switched to holographic synthatrons :p
20130416 00:39:54< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, we can start slow, just use vector images we have them and stay with the images elsewhere. I do not propose a sudden switch.
20130416 00:41:03< LordBob_> We can try it, but I still have doubts. Namely, vector art works very well in large sizes but I find it too impredictable in small format
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20130416 00:42:27< LordBob_> So, in the case of our current UI, I think scaling down to 25 or 30 pixels is just about that size where pixel art actually works better :s
20130416 00:42:55< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, and the look of vector art might collide with our pixel art unit we use elsewhere. 
20130416 00:43:06< LordBob_> exactly
20130416 00:43:08< fendrin> s/unit/units
20130416 00:43:33 * jetrel2 mutters nevermind
20130416 00:43:42< LordBob_> So, let's set aside vector art for Wesnoth 2.0
20130416 00:43:44< jetrel2> Was failing silently on an ssh thing
20130416 00:44:12 * LordBob_ wish he had at least known what an rsync is.
20130416 00:44:39< jetrel2> LordBob_:  it's a command-line tool for copying files from one computer to another
20130416 00:45:13< jetrel2> It's especially centered on doing backups by only copying things which have changed
20130416 00:45:13 * LordBob_ is now absolutely certain that he definitely cannot be of any help :p
20130416 00:49:16< jetrel2> I should've seen the warning sign earlier.
20130416 00:49:38< jetrel2> "Why is it asking me for my login password only when I copy the files back, not when I copy to?"
20130416 00:49:47< fendrin> LordBob_: On a file level, meaning it transfers only those parts of files that changed, not the whole file.
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20130416 00:51:37< LordBob_> fendrin: one thing that I'd like to see is a finite list of functions that will require icons now or in the future, plus the different palette groups (terrain, units, villages, whichever)
20130416 00:52:22< fendrin> LordBob_: For the terrain groups, just look in your favorite wesnoth copy.
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20130416 00:52:57< fendrin> LordBob_: They are in images/buttons and named group-something
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20130416 00:54:16< fendrin> LordBob_: Then the 10 tools (only 9 defined now). But I am confident that the 10 will be a "Define Path" tool.
20130416 00:55:02< fendrin> LordBob_: cut,paste,copy, select all, select none, invert selection
20130416 00:55:28< fendrin> LordBob_: switch fg/bg item in the palette (currently only for terrain but I would make the icon generic)
20130416 00:56:07< fendrin> the zooms, grid, flip, resize
20130416 00:57:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: so far, we're good. I was thinking, maybe also a ToD button that would open the editor settings dialog
20130416 00:57:39< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, makes sense.
20130416 00:57:54< LordBob_> or a ToD buttons that just makes the day go by
20130416 00:58:03< LordBob_> *button
20130416 00:58:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Ah, there is also a partial undo.
20130416 00:58:33< LordBob_> That's a new one. What does it do ?
20130416 00:58:49< fendrin> LordBob_: Partial undo means it undoes only the last step of a otherwise completely to undo action.
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20130416 00:59:04< fendrin> LordBob_: For example: You move a unit 5 hex fields wide.
20130416 00:59:39< fendrin> LordBob_: The undo would just place it back to the starting point while the partial will undo every single step one for one.
20130416 00:59:59< LordBob_> That would be a game feature, though ?
20130416 01:00:38< fendrin> LordBob_: I think the game itself does not support the concept of partial undoes. But I am not sure. Anyway, it can be implemented later if wanted.
20130416 01:01:13< LordBob_> What situations in the editor would make use of the partial undo, then ?
20130416 01:02:06< LordBob_> (anyway, partial undo/redo icons are quite doable)
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20130416 01:02:38< fendrin> LordBob_: The unit example is valid, the unit tool supports moving units by drag and drop. 
20130416 01:03:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Still you can have another one: You use the paint tool to draw a whole region of the map without every releasing the button.
20130416 01:03:28< fendrin> LordBob_: You are fine with everything but not the last 5 painted hex fields.
20130416 01:03:35< LordBob_> and in this case, how does the editor define the "path" of which you undo the steps ?
20130416 01:03:58< LordBob_> (s
20130416 01:04:01< LordBob_> for the unit)
20130416 01:04:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Since you never let go the mouse button undo would just remove the whole while partial undo does the trick.
20130416 01:04:59< LordBob_> yeah, but does this mean the editor actually logs every single hex the cursor has occupied ?
20130416 01:05:03< fendrin> LordBob_: The editor stores an undo action for every action done. If you undo a unit move it just applies reverting move actions.
20130416 01:06:07< LordBob_> I get that. But simply storing "was at A, went to Z" is conpletely different from storing every single letter in between.
20130416 01:06:30< LordBob_> With a large brush and many layers, this is precisely how you put Photoshop on its knees
20130416 01:06:50< LordBob_> *and that should have been "completely"
20130416 01:07:02< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the undo/restore stack is cleared from time to time.
20130416 01:07:58< fendrin> LordBob_: On the other hand, the "Define Path" tool works similar to the "Define named Area" one.
20130416 01:08:13< fendrin> LordBob_: I mean it uses similar data structures.
20130416 01:08:26< LordBob_> Oh well, anyway these are technical considerations. But judging by how it works in imaging software, they might be trickier to implement than they sound
20130416 01:08:46< fendrin> LordBob_: While the area is a set of hex fields without any dedicated order, the path is a list of hex fields.
20130416 01:09:20< LordBob_> And I take it it is not visible to the player and is also used in AI /scripting ?
20130416 01:10:18< fendrin> LordBob_: Indeed, the path is used like the area to script events or to guide the ai.
20130416 01:10:50< LordBob_> so, name area and define path, that'd be two more buttons
20130416 01:11:17< fendrin> LordBob_: My current area handling was menu based only.
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20130416 01:11:58< fendrin> LordBob_: You know, all you need to define an area is the selection tool and a menu entry to define it. But this can be an utility button for the slection tool.
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20130416 01:13:31< LordBob_> true
20130416 01:14:32< LordBob_> speaking of utility buttons, your editor screenshot did not seem to include space for those beyond the brush size controls
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20130416 01:14:46< fendrin> LordBob_: The path tool on the other hand needs an extra tool, because you need to define the path step by step.
20130416 01:14:55< LordBob_> ounless you placethem in the blak spots of the top bar ?
20130416 01:15:03< fendrin> Yes, that was the plan.
20130416 01:15:22< LordBob_> *unless / place them / blank spots
20130416 01:16:21< LordBob_> Hm... I still doubt wether the result will be intuitive
20130416 01:16:34< shadowm> esr: Around?
20130416 01:17:25< LordBob_> I mean, if the user picks his tool on the right side of the screen and choses brush sizes and palettes over there, he won't be expecting tool-related icons to appear at the top of the screen
20130416 01:23:00< LordBob_> fendrin: anyway, I'm about to crash, so we can resume tomorrow. I'll try to come up with refined mock-ups for both the small and standard screen resolutions.
20130416 01:23:28< LordBob_> later, people
20130416 01:23:30< fendrin> LordBob_: Agreed, I will see to place them around the tools.
20130416 01:23:40< fendrin> LordBob_: Bye, bonne nuit.
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20130416 02:00:59< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • [READ-ME] Hotmail/Live.com/Outlook email issues by shadowmaster [ 04-15-2013 23:53 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p551631 ]
20130416 02:01:22< mattsc> Nobody has complained, so I am going to delete the tasks marked for deletion on the EasyCoding page.
20130416 02:13:30< shadowm> Whoever sees Darko again tell him that I activated his forum account (dragon4all2005, determined via IP and email address heuristics).
20130416 02:13:47< shadowm> (Yes, I like throwing the word 'heuristic' around for no reason in particular.)
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20130416 02:21:36< flix> mattsc: I spend some time with the recruitment algorithms in the MircoAI demo. It's really hard to read it (I like LUA though). But I got a basic idea of what it's capable of. I don't know yet if I can make use of this in my purpose idea...  btw: The Bottleneck-Defense Micro AI is great! When the AI is playing it's like watching a movie :D
20130416 02:26:37< mattsc> flix: Thanks  :)  The Bottleneck Defense was my first attempt at a "real AI" behavior.  The recruitment algorithm is almost entirely done by Alarantalara, so he'd be the best person to ask if you have questions.
20130416 02:27:25< mattsc> Also, I wasn't suggesting that you should use it in your idea, just pointing you to some other things that have been done.
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20130416 02:34:24< flix> mattsc: I realized this, and it's definitely good to know that there was some work done from where I could get some ideas later. Good night!
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20130416 02:44:07< fendrin> shadowm: hi there
20130416 02:46:25< fendrin> shadowm: There is a menu in the replay gui featuring 3 exclusive items. Shall I display 3 radiobuttons instead?
20130416 02:48:23< shadowm> Is that even possible yet?
20130416 02:48:53< fendrin> shadowm: Sure, why not. It is just that 3 radiobuttons in row instead of a column might look strange.
20130416 02:49:41< fendrin> shadowm: What I can do easily is adding the radiobutton icons to the menu items, like it is done with checkbox and dual state items.
20130416 02:50:42< shadowm> Row? Column? What.
20130416 02:50:47< shadowm> All menus display their items in columns,.
20130416 02:50:55< shadowm> *on columns.
20130416 02:50:56< fendrin> yes
20130416 02:51:16< fendrin> I can replace the menu button with just 3 checkboxes on the extra replay bar.
20130416 02:51:37< fendrin> There is enough space left.
20130416 02:51:41< shadowm> Okay, no.
20130416 02:51:48< fendrin> But radiobuttons don't work that well in a row.
20130416 02:51:53< shadowm> Did you check translations?
20130416 02:52:02< shadowm> You are talking of the POV dropdown menu, aren't you?
20130416 02:52:14< fendrin> Indeed, yes. The point of view menu.
20130416 02:52:43< shadowm> I don't see why it shouldn't be a dropdown menu.
20130416 02:52:59< shadowm> In fact, it _must_ be a dropdown menu, now that I think of it.
20130416 02:53:09< fendrin> Okay, I will then just add the icons to the menu. Similar to how we already do with checkbox icons when the action is a dual state one.
20130416 02:53:12< shadowm> You can have up to 9 sides in most scenarios (9 menu items + 2).
20130416 02:53:25< shadowm> In one AtS scenario there are 14 sides (14 menu items + 2).
20130416 02:53:28< fendrin> Ah yes, I see.
20130416 02:54:35< shadowm> Okay, it seems the menu takes into account some vague definition of "teams" rather than individual sides?
20130416 02:54:42< shadowm> Either way you can have an arbitrary number of items there.
20130416 02:55:07< shadowm> That will quickly become a problem on, say, 800x480, with certain scenarios.
20130416 02:55:47< fendrin> Yeah, very right. Getting rid of the menu and put the radiobuttons on the bar is out of question. 
20130416 02:56:50< shadowm> If you can give the menu items the radio button appearance like you say, then cool.
20130416 02:57:08< fendrin> Yeah, that is a little bit coding work but not much.
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20130416 02:57:40< fendrin> Would be a shame to not use Lord Bob's new radiobutton images.
20130416 02:58:32< fendrin> shadowm: Currently the item is a little broken, you can't see in which state it is.
20130416 03:02:07< fendrin> shadowm: I have also turned *every* menu buttons into turbo typed ones, like it is with qt/gtk+ and every other gui I have tested (beside Wesnoth).
20130416 03:02:23< shadowm> Wait what.
20130416 03:02:59< shadowm> Ah you mean that the menu is displayed on mouse-down instead of click?
20130416 03:03:06< fendrin> yes
20130416 03:03:50< fendrin> I think the philosophy behind that gui behavior is that it gives a faster impression of gui reaction while it does not hurt. 
20130416 03:04:06< fendrin> Opening a menu is uncritical.
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20130416 03:09:15< fendrin> shadowm: Also, the current theme wml tag [menu] has become a brother [action]. This allows me to remove some hacks to display one item menus.
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20130416 03:09:45< fendrin> shadowm: And the [action] tag allows to bind more than one action to a button. This can easily be used for multiple purpose buttons.
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20130416 03:49:32< fendrin> hi Crendgrim
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20130416 04:50:30< shadowm> AI0867, mordante: Do you know whether git-svn can do the svn switch --relocate thing, or would one need to make a new git-svn tree with the new URLs instead?
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20130416 04:54:47< AI0867> not sure
20130416 04:55:00< AI0867> editing .git/config *might* be sufficient
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20130416 04:55:41< shadowm> Yeah, but wouldn't it get confused and refetch everything then?
20130416 04:55:57< shadowm> After all, with the defaults the repository URL is even included in every commit message.
20130416 04:56:07< shadowm> e.g. git-svn-id: https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/After_the_Storm@18010 87cc232e-6748-0410-ac04-a3fa75566414
20130416 04:57:29< shadowm> Uh. https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitSvnSwitch
20130416 04:58:09< shadowm> Wat.
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20130416 05:00:08< shadowm> I'm finding some answers that aren't actually answers so much as they are hacky workarounds.
20130416 05:00:15< shadowm> It seems git-svn does not have any such functionality.
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20130416 05:00:41< shadowm> Wow, it's incredibly tempting to save me all the pain and just move my crap to GitHub instead.
20130416 05:02:03< shadowm> I guess I'll just have to regenerate my git-svn trees after we switch wesnoth-umc-dev to Allura unless I wanted to risk history loss and other screw-ups along the same line.
20130416 05:02:19< shadowm> (I certainly don't.)
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20130416 05:08:51< AI0867> um, just try it out on master, and have everything else in feature branches?
20130416 05:09:05< AI0867> with a backup_master so you can generate a list of patches if needed?
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20130416 05:11:11< shadowm> Not sure if that makes sense to me.
20130416 05:11:30< Gambit> shadowm: But parts of Github are proprietary.
20130416 05:11:34< Gambit> So that makes them evil because reasons.
20130416 05:11:39< Gambit> No I am not being religious.
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20130416 07:32:33< shadowm> esr: Around?
20130416 07:32:41< shadowm> 02:32:27 -!-  idle     : 0 days 0 hours 0 mins 11 secs [signon: Sun Apr 14 18:18:19 2013]
20130416 07:32:49< shadowm> I think the answer is 'yes'.
20130416 07:32:57< shadowm> Any progress?
20130416 07:34:10< esr> Compression is at 61%
20130416 07:34:56< shadowm> Okay.
20130416 07:35:14< DaveahamLincoln> Hello everyone, found this on the GSoC page and I thought I'd drop in and say hi.
20130416 07:35:26< shadowm> Hi there, DaveahamLincoln .
20130416 07:36:12< shadowm> esr: You said you migrated one Subversion-based SF.net project to Allura before. Did it use SVN hooks before the transition?
20130416 07:37:09< esr> I don't believe so.  Unless...possibly...they were canned hooks set up by SF itself.
20130416 07:37:16< shadowm> Goddammit.
20130416 07:37:25< esr> ?
20130416 07:37:30< shadowm> esr: Did you have a commits ML at least?
20130416 07:37:52< shadowm> With the 'classic' infrastructure, Subversion repositories in SF.net may only be assigned a limited set of hooks through the web interface. With Allura, AFAICT Subversion repositories may be given arbitrary hooks through the awkward shell system.
20130416 07:38:00< esr> No.  I didn't set up the project I'm thinking of.
20130416 07:38:18< shadowm> I want to know if the Allura upgrade for a Subversion repo under SF.net's classic infra automatically copies over those hooks.
20130416 07:38:30< esr> So what's the problem?  Ah, I see.
20130416 07:38:36< esr> I don't know.
20130416 07:38:43< shadowm> I tried adminrepo on the Wesnoth-UMC-Dev repo (which is currently under the classic infra) and didn't even get a hooks dir to inspect.
20130416 07:38:51< shadowm> Even though we have two or three hooks enabled in the web interface.
20130416 07:39:07< shadowm> I created a SVN repo under a project I already switched to Allura and got a default hooks dir.
20130416 07:39:43< shadowm> So I wanted to know if switching Wesnoth-UMC-Dev to Allura means I will have to collect the hooks we currently use from somewhere else, or they will be automatically transferred.
20130416 07:41:12< shadowm> esr: If you have some time there, you might want to delete the Wiki that the Allura switch automatically created for Wesnoth.
20130416 07:41:30< shadowm> It's misleading and AFAICT there is no way to have it redirect to our real on-site wiki.
20130416 07:42:05< shadowm> And obviously I don't have the access necessary to delete it myself and the other people with admin access are either inactive or have as much knowledge about Allura as I do.
20130416 07:43:37< esr> I'll try, but the interface is a bit broken that way - some feature apparently *cannot* be deleted once created.
20130416 07:43:59< shadowm> I could delete Wesnoth RCX's wiki after switching it to Allura
20130416 07:44:11< shadowm> Or more specifically, after using it as testing grounds for Allura's SVN infra.
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20130416 07:57:19< DaveahamLincoln> I'm in the process of getting the trunk source from the repo.  When I try to apt-get build-dep wesnoth I'm getting 'unable to locate a source package for wesnoth-1.10.'  Any ideas as to why that might be?  
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20130416 08:11:07< shadowm> DaveahamLincoln: Could you pastebin the entirety of the error message?
20130416 08:11:33< DaveahamLincoln> sure, gimme one sec.  wroking across 2 machines atm
20130416 08:15:09< DaveahamLincoln> http://pastebin.com/r8uetTnN
20130416 08:15:24< DaveahamLincoln> is what I'm dealing with now
20130416 08:15:52< shadowm> Could you pastebin your apt sources instead? It looks like you did something wrong.
20130416 08:16:16< DaveahamLincoln> sure
20130416 08:16:30< shadowm> As in, including the source repository for the wrong distribution.
20130416 08:17:16< DaveahamLincoln> pastebin.com/xBy84k45
20130416 08:17:56< DaveahamLincoln> I'm on Mint, if that makes a difference.
20130416 08:18:18 * shadowm grits teeth.
20130416 08:18:42< DaveahamLincoln> Oh dear.
20130416 08:18:54< shadowm> Okay, try pairing every deb-src line with its matching deb line.
20130416 08:18:59< shadowm> You have a duplicate source line, too.
20130416 08:19:32< DaveahamLincoln> kk, 1 sec
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20130416 08:22:21< DaveahamLincoln> still getting the error from r8uetTnN.  Here's the amended sources.list: http://pastebin.com/aLxvFMin
20130416 08:23:43< shadowm> Could you try installing any of the dependencies by hand to see what's preventing them from being installed?
20130416 08:23:58< DaveahamLincoln> sure
20130416 08:24:38< shadowm> I really have no experience with mixed distributions like Mint. :/
20130416 08:25:08< shadowm> I mean, aside from running Debian testing+unstable+experimental at various points in time.
20130416 08:26:05< DaveahamLincoln> looks like I've got a broken package, I'll try repairing.  what distro would you suggest for this, in terms of ease of use?  I've got a laptop I'm not using so putting something else on it won't be a big deal.
20130416 08:26:30< shadowm> Well, Mint seems to be popular because of its ease of use.
20130416 08:27:31< DaveahamLincoln> I mean ease of use for this particular project, not ease of use overall
20130416 08:27:32< shadowm> I am really the worst person to ask about user-friendly distributions seeing as how I've been running Debian since 2008...
20130416 08:27:37< DaveahamLincoln> ahaha
20130416 08:27:44< DaveahamLincoln> fair enough
20130416 08:27:47< shadowm> DaveahamLincoln: Any Debian-based distribution should do for Wesnoth, and you've got one there...
20130416 08:30:01< DaveahamLincoln> hmm...I'll keep troubleshooting it.  It's probably just a problem with apttiude, I get weird issues with it sometimes
20130416 08:30:13< shadowm> I am personally not very familiarized with Mint or anything descended from Ubuntu, including Ubuntu itself, other than hearsay.
20130416 08:31:22< kelpy> Im running it on Ubuntu now, but havent seen your error before
20130416 08:32:12< DaveahamLincoln> I think it might be because it's a baked version my CS department gave us, lots of built in stuff that gunks things up on occasion
20130416 08:32:32< shadowm> I'm sure there's a way to get apt-get or aptitude to be more verbose about broken dependencies, but I don't remember what it is atm. Haven't had to deal with breakage of any sort for quite a while.
20130416 08:33:55< DaveahamLincoln> right now I'm just running a fix broken cycle, seems to have caught the contents of my error, so so far so good
20130416 08:34:16< kelpy> oh, well if that doesnt work
20130416 08:34:25< badola> apt-get --build-deps 
20130416 08:34:37< kelpy> sometimes an apt-get autoremove can clear up some broken dependency issues
20130416 08:35:16< shadowm> badola: I think you mean apt-get build-dep (unless you meant apt-get source --build, which isn't wanted in this case).
20130416 08:35:50< badola> yeah apt-get build-dep
20130416 08:36:07< badola> it helps resolve all needed dependencies
20130416 08:36:41< DaveahamLincoln> I'll try that if this doesn't catch it.  gonna let it run and go grab some food before the commissary closes.  should be back in 10ish (thanks for the help so far, I feel like a complete and utter noob...not a good start :/)
20130416 08:37:19< shadowm> DaveahamLincoln: But wasn't build-dep where you started? :p
20130416 08:37:44< DaveahamLincoln> yeah, I didn't do --build dep though
20130416 08:37:51< DaveahamLincoln> er --build-dep
20130416 08:37:58< shadowm> There is no such switch.
20130416 08:37:59< DaveahamLincoln> just build-dep
20130416 08:38:10< DaveahamLincoln> ok
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20130416 08:38:30< DaveahamLincoln> so yeah, that was the original problem @badola
20130416 08:43:28< badola> Hahaha.. sad for you... 
20130416 08:43:47< badola> even I won't be that much of a help then
20130416 08:43:57< badola> I myself use openSuse
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20130416 08:45:34 * Soliton recently discovered that openSuSE has aptitude emulation which maps commands to zypper and yast.
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20130416 09:10:40< DaveahamLincoln> woo!  think I got it, used aptitude to downgrade the packages that were causing the issue and then upgraded them manually.
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20130416 09:16:31< badola> awesome.. :-) 
20130416 09:18:38< DaveahamLincoln> fwiw and for the record, it seems like apt-get install foo is the less verbose version of aptitude install foo.  Learning stuff already!  Hooray for learning.
20130416 09:19:41< shadowm> aptitude tends to be slow and noisy here, yes.
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20130416 10:04:31< thunderstruck> Crab_, I was reading past year proposals and now I'm not sure how should I write my proposal, because I might not be able to be as specific as those proposal authors. 'mp campaign support' involves modifying a lot of previous code, i.e. AI proposals are more about new code, so it is quite easy to say what classes (possibly even methods) you are going to implement, but 'mp campaign support' requires to tink
20130416 10:04:32< thunderstruck> er the code in various places. So, I wonder how should I go about it?
20130416 10:07:01< Crab_> thunderstruck: most important part is to agree on project goals
20130416 10:08:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: those can be high-level goals. just to have an understanding between us about what you think you would be doing during the summer.
20130416 10:09:30< thunderstruck> Crab_, hmm.. I thought that most important part is to show you that a student knows what he is doing and has an idea how to do it.
20130416 10:09:43< Crab_> thunderstruck: well, then, as a next step, we'll have to help you demonstrate that you can indeed do those things (patches,bugfixes, some stating tasks)
20130416 10:10:13< Crab_> thunderstruck: but, we need to have an agreement on things that are 'in scope' of the project
20130416 10:10:30< Crab_> thunderstruck: that would also show that you understand what we want done
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20130416 10:14:10< Crab_> thunderstruck: coding skill would be best demonstrated in tasks and actual code
20130416 10:15:02< thunderstruck> Crab_, indeed. I already submitted a few patches by the way. I've been hanging here for quite a while.
20130416 10:15:24< Crab_> thunderstruck: I know.
20130416 10:15:47< Crab_> thunderstruck: but be sure to mention them on the project page.
20130416 10:16:50< thunderstruck> Crab_, wasn't too active, though. Mainly because of my studies.
20130416 10:16:58< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'll mention them of course.
20130416 10:17:33< Crab_> thunderstruck: have you talked with fendin already about his requirements and ideas?
20130416 10:18:59< thunderstruck> Crab_, I've talked with yesterday and figured out some things. There are still many requirements/ideas which needs to be clarified, though.
20130416 10:19:11< Crab_> thunderstruck: have you started the project page already?
20130416 10:19:28< thunderstruck> with him*
20130416 10:20:11< thunderstruck> Crab_, no I haven't. I'm taking keeping my notes locally for now :)
20130416 10:20:36< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'll have to turn them into something that other people than me can understand.
20130416 10:20:38< Crab_> thunderstruck: ok. after you create even a small project page, you can ping me and I'll read it, and provide some feedback.
20130416 10:21:17< thunderstruck> Crab_, sure. I feel it is silly to ask, but I can't find how can I copy gsoc template page?
20130416 10:21:35< thunderstruck> Crab_, and I have registered with a site.
20130416 10:21:38< Crab_> thunderstruck: edit the template page, copy all the text, create a new page, paste all the next
20130416 10:22:15< thunderstruck> Crab_, oh, well. It was a silly question indeed.
20130416 10:22:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: not at all
20130416 10:23:04< Crab_> thunderstruck: a silly question is probably... where you learn nothing from an answer
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20130416 10:24:23< thunderstruck> Crab_, one last thing. I am going to post a message on forum asking UMC devs/players what they would like MP campaigns to be like. E.g. how new players should join the game, how SP campaign should be turned to MP etc.
20130416 10:25:17< thunderstruck> Crab_, and then I'll talk with fendrin, you or anyone who has something to say about that idea.
20130416 10:25:38< thunderstruck> Crab_, and I'll try to merge them together including my own ideas.
20130416 10:26:43< Crab_> thunderstruck: ok. but note that during the project it would make sense to finish everything 'basic' with one campaign first, then add extra features.
20130416 10:27:04< Crab_> So make sure to note all the basic things that are needed to make LoW work, and let them have priority.
20130416 10:30:32< thunderstruck> Crab_, talking about LoW, I can't get it to work as MP.
20130416 10:31:01< Crab_> thunderstruck: I'll take a look at it (slightly later)
20130416 10:31:26< Crab_> thunderstruck: maybe something is messed up. should be easy to fix.
20130416 10:32:26< thunderstruck> Crab_, I think I can look at it myself. fendrin told me that I should run './wesnoth -d'. Is that right?
20130416 10:32:44< thunderstruck> in order to see LoW as MP.
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20130416 10:33:26< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes, that launches wesnoth in super-debug mode
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20130416 10:33:42< Crab_> it's slightly more powerful than typing :debug from in-game console
20130416 10:34:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. Talking about debug. What's is the difference between two debugging options you mentioned and running './wesnoth-debug'
20130416 10:34:50< thunderstruck> after compiled with 'scons build=debug'?
20130416 10:35:21< thunderstruck> What's the*
20130416 10:35:51< thunderstruck> And apart that my computer becomes x10 slower..
20130416 10:39:32< Crab_> ./wesnoth-debug is a binary with debug symbols. if it segfaults, you can get line numbers in the stack trace. also, you can attach a debugger there  and do it line-by-line. that's why it's way slower.
20130416 10:39:57< Crab_> -d switch enables some blocks of C++ code hidden behind something like "if (options::mp_debug()) {}" statements
20130416 10:40:06< Crab_> :debug enables a subset of those blocks
20130416 10:40:24< Crab_> so, you can run ./wesnoth-debug -d , those are two separate things.
20130416 10:41:02< Crab_> I tend to not use ./wesnoth-debug since it's too slow to compile for my taste
20130416 10:41:44< shadowm> It's lightning fast to build here with 16 GiB of RAM and an adequate quad-core processor with HT.
20130416 10:41:57< thunderstruck> shadowm, good for you :)
20130416 10:42:20< shadowm> As well as an appropriate HDD on a 6 Gbps SATA link. An SSD would do even better.
20130416 10:43:18< shadowm> Really, the worst part about debug builds is the linking step because you have to fit a lot of data into memory.
20130416 10:43:36< shadowm> On my laptop with 4 GiB of RAM that results in thrashing if I have KDE and a web browser running.
20130416 10:44:31< shadowm> Some pretty build figures: http://pastebin.com/7HaFTBgX
20130416 10:45:37< shadowm> More realistic figures corresponding to the files that are actually needed during the linking step for the wesnoth-debug binary: http://pastebin.com/CEjjvNi0
20130416 10:45:49< shadowm> Note that libwesnoth_extras.a is 904 MiB.
20130416 10:46:42< thunderstruck> It seems that I have to put more RAM into my laptop or forget to use gdb with Wesnoth.
20130416 10:46:46< shadowm> Also, game.o alone is 6.1 MiB.
20130416 10:46:53< thunderstruck> or I should forget*
20130416 10:47:14< shadowm> thunderstruck: An adequate strategy is avoiding having other applications running during build.
20130416 10:47:55< shadowm> That is, assuming you have at least 4 GiB. Things were becoming absolutely unbearable with just 2 GiB on my other laptop before I actually invested money on additional RAM.
20130416 10:48:20< thunderstruck> shadowm, I guess that I should switch distros too. Unity is quite resource heavy.
20130416 10:49:34< shadowm> Yeah.
20130416 10:50:20< thunderstruck> shadowm, I'm planning to try debian for quite a while and over a past few days I heard folks here talking about it. 
20130416 10:50:39< thunderstruck> shadowm, so, how bad actually is to use debian stable?
20130416 10:50:51< thunderstruck> in terms of old packages.
20130416 10:51:16< shadowm> In my experience? Not at all, I just get bored of running the same old crap after a while because I'm like a toddler with a short attention span in that respect
20130416 10:51:33< shadowm> So I tend to run testing most of the time.
20130416 10:52:29< shadowm> Wesnoth itself is always meant to be able to build and run properly on Debian stable.
20130416 10:52:38< thunderstruck> shadowm, I see. Well, probably a bigger problem for me is to find a distro which would not require days to get audio or something to work.
20130416 10:52:49< shadowm> In fact, you will even find 1.10 on backports.
20130416 10:52:54< thunderstruck> I only use Ubuntu because my audio works with it out of the box.
20130416 10:53:08< thunderstruck> It seems that I have not a common laptop.
20130416 10:53:51< thunderstruck> uncommon*
20130416 10:53:53< shadowm> Luckily for me my last two laptops didn't give me trouble in that regard.
20130416 10:54:03< shadowm> My desktop, on the other hand... :D
20130416 10:55:36< shadowm> I do generally run my own kernels from upstream instead of Debian's stock kernels anyway, because I got some weird infatuation with building kernels back in my openSUSE days.
20130416 10:55:37< thunderstruck> shadowm, well, as I heard from the specs, your desktop seems to be of at least relatively new technology and that is what usually causes problems with Linux.
20130416 10:56:35< shadowm> Yeah. Only the most basic functionality of my sound controller is supported as of Linux 3.8, and Debian testing has 3.2.
20130416 10:57:02< shadowm> Things like frontal plugs don't work, volume controls are wonky and mislabeled, etc.
20130416 10:58:10< shadowm> I _think_ better support for it is coming in Linux 3.9, but I'm stuck with 3.7 for now because of... reasons.
20130416 10:58:38< shadowm> The bottomline is that I'm avoiding controllers from Creative Labs in the future.
20130416 10:58:42< thunderstruck> shadowm, my laptop got separate keys for media control (it is huge 17.3 inch laptop) and they work fine with Ubuntu. Actually, better than with Windows.
20130416 10:58:53< thunderstruck> laptop has*
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20130416 11:00:17< thunderstruck> shadowm, that is another reason I run Ubuntu. I can be proud that something works better than with Windows.
20130416 11:00:27< thunderstruck> from the hardware point of view*
20130416 11:03:25< shadowm> I can't say for sure anything about Windows seeing as how I stopped using it outside of VMs circa 2007.
20130416 11:04:36< shadowm> I mean, it's lightning fast to boot with the assistance of Linux's file caching strategy (and a single-file virtual hard disk image) and VirtualBox, but that's all I know for sure.
20130416 11:04:40< shadowm> :p
20130416 11:05:59< shadowm> (It also helps using XP instead of its more heavy-weight successors.)
20130416 11:12:23< thunderstruck> shadowm, yeah, but I'm glad that I can get by without using nor XP, nor its predecessors or successors.
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20130416 11:15:52< badola_> can anyone help me out here, http://pastebin.com/7RpNBJV5
20130416 11:16:30< badola_> I have the libraries installed, my distro -openSuse 12.3 x86_64
20130416 11:16:51< Anakonda> how did you install them
20130416 11:17:03< badola_> through yast
20130416 11:18:34< badola_> I first installed only the 64bit libraries... but then the compilation was failing
20130416 11:18:43< Anakonda> it says they are invalid
20130416 11:18:50< badola_> so I also installed the 32bit libraries as well... of libSDL
20130416 11:19:16< Anakonda> you should have 64bit libs
20130416 11:19:30< Anakonda> why it was failing with 64bits
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20130416 11:19:53< badola_> it was not able to find the right version of 64bit libs
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20130416 11:20:38< Anakonda> hmm
20130416 11:21:07< badola_> shall I try and compile SDL to get through this..??
20130416 11:21:19< Anakonda> in that case I suggest that you download latest source of sdl and compile it
20130416 11:21:45< badola_> Thanks Anakonda , I will do so. :)
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20130416 12:05:47< badola_> worked.. :) though I had to compile all the SDL libs manually, but finally it compiled and run.. Thanks for the suggestion Anakonda .
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20130416 15:26:40< vultraz> hey LordBob_ 
20130416 15:26:51< LordBob_> Hi Vultraz
20130416 15:27:01< LordBob_> How are you ?
20130416 15:27:14< vultraz> good
20130416 15:27:25< vultraz> watching Psych
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20130416 15:28:50< LordBob_> The detective drama ?
20130416 15:29:35< LordBob_> Fendrin, you there ?
20130416 15:30:05< vultraz> yes
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20130416 15:42:45< vultraz> LordBob_: seems mockup #2 is the clear favorite 
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20130416 15:45:01< LordBob_> So far it does, Vultraz, and that's why most of the new mock-ups are mostly refining that concept. However, #2 isn't so good in smaller resolutions
20130416 15:46:19< vultraz> oh didn't see you had posted more
20130416 15:46:40< LordBob_> I did it just now
20130416 15:49:20< vultraz> LordBob_: how about no top bar?
20130416 15:50:06< vultraz> the first new screenshot you posted, but with the top buttons on the left
20130416 15:52:16< LordBob_> Vultraz: I'm not sure. It could work, of course, but the top bar is the spot where clipboard and other common-use commands are found in most applications these days. Placing them on the side might work against most users' intuitions
20130416 15:53:21< vultraz> hm...
20130416 15:53:30< vultraz> ok, it's alright the way it is
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20130416 16:23:11< dragos___> Hello!
20130416 16:23:41< dragos___> Crab_: I've finish the mirror recruiting function, I'm now working on the retreat one. 
20130416 16:24:18< Crab_> dragos___: hello! great. you're welcome to send the code when you'll want me to take a look at it
20130416 16:25:31< dragos___> Crab_: Sure :). I'll try to write the retreat function as well so I can send the both at the same time. If it will take more time then I expect I'll just send this one. 
20130416 16:25:38< Crab_> ok
20130416 16:26:00< Crab_> by the way, lua or C++ ?
20130416 16:26:17< Crab_> (just curious at this time)
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20130416 16:27:49< anup> want to do a GSOC project
20130416 16:29:00< anup> to whome I should refer and can u give me the name of the mentor
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20130416 16:43:58< dragos___> Oh sorry I didn't see you typed. I wrote in in C++
20130416 16:44:34< dragos___> Even though I think it would've took the same time to write in in LUA
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20130416 16:45:58< dragos___> Crab_: I wrote like you said in the lua/core and made a function in lua so when I use ai.mirror_recruit() it will recruit the units that the other player recruited
20130416 16:46:22< Crab_> ok
20130416 16:46:42< Crab_> will be waiting for the code, then (but there's plenty of time so no reason to hurry)
20130416 16:48:29< badola> Hi Crab_ 
20130416 16:49:11< badola> Yesterday I had a talk with Ivanovic, and he suggested me to get started with some bugs.
20130416 16:49:44< dragos___> Crab_: Ok. I'll do the retreat function and I'll send you the code
20130416 16:50:14< Crab_> badola: yes, either bugfixes or doing some project-specific warmup tasks is a great idea
20130416 16:50:14< badola> In particular I am interested in the project Multiplayer_Campaign_Support_2013, for GSoC this year.
20130416 16:50:31< badola> I would like to get a project specific warmup.
20130416 16:50:50< badola> or a bug which will help in into diving into code,
20130416 16:51:00< badola> My core competency is C++
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20130416 16:52:10< badola> where should I begin, I have compiled and tested the code already (my OS = openSuse 12.3 x64)
20130416 16:54:20< Crab_> badola: bugs are usually not project-specific, just whatever stuff we have at bugs.wesnoth.org. 
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20130416 16:55:08< Crab_> badola: for this particular project, we want to make the legend of wesmere to be playable as a multiplayer campaign (and, in the  course of doing so, we'll fix quite a ton of bugs)
20130416 16:55:23< Crab_> and it's all in C++ (with some C++ gui stuff, as well)
20130416 16:56:00< badola> LoW, that Kalenz one, right,..?
20130416 16:56:30< badola> I have played single player campaign a lot, actually, that is why I was interested in this project. :)
20130416 16:57:12< Crab_> badola: yes
20130416 16:57:33< badola> Why LoW, when I thought that the Prince Konrad one was a far better story. (My personal favorite)
20130416 16:58:13< badola> LoW starts with two elves, if I remember properly.. 
20130416 16:58:36< badola> So are we planning to remove that elf, and let the other player join in the map..??
20130416 16:58:52< Crab_> one player plays one elf, another player plays the second elf
20130416 16:59:02< badola> I see..
20130416 16:59:03< Crab_> in some scenarios we can get a third player for the dwarf
20130416 16:59:20< badola> Hmmm... that would be interesting...
20130416 17:00:04< badola> Does this project only pertains to LoW, or are we gonna implement it in all the campaigns as well..?
20130416 17:00:12< Crab_> LoW is a test case
20130416 17:00:20< Crab_> but no other mainline campaigns so far
20130416 17:00:42< badola> One thing that I was thinking though, we may have to introduce larger maps to accomodate more players.
20130416 17:01:02< Crab_> I have to go afk now, please mail\PM me so I'll be able to tell you some ideas for warmup tasks.
20130416 17:01:04< badola> and more enemies as well.. (I mean orcs)
20130416 17:01:16< Crab_> if we provide the tools, scenario creators would create good scenarios.
20130416 17:01:23< badola> your mail_id please..??
20130416 17:01:32< Crab_> terraninfo@terraninfo.net
20130416 17:01:48< Crab_> or 'Crab' on wesnoth's forums
20130416 17:01:49< badola> thanks I will mail you... :)
20130416 17:01:53< Crab_> ok, thanks.
20130416 17:02:00< badola> yeah sure.. 
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20130416 17:02:08< badola> thanks for the help..
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20130416 17:20:58< vultraz> fendrin: suggestion: a Close All Maps menu button
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20130416 18:10:10< fendrin> hi vul
20130416 18:10:14< fendrin> LordBob_: hello
20130416 18:10:28< LordBob_> Hi fendrin
20130416 18:11:08< LordBob_> I've done a couple more screen mock-ups. I think we're almost there and the next batch will likely produce the final working plan :)
20130416 18:12:17< LordBob_> Though we'll have to wait until we discuss it further: I'll be absent for a couple hours
20130416 18:14:20< fendrin> LordBob_: One moment please.
20130416 18:14:52< LordBob_> Okay, but only a minute
20130416 18:14:56< fendrin> LordBob_: Today is my RolePlaying evening (Dungeons&Dragons). That means I am not available either.
20130416 18:14:58< LordBob_> I'm all ears
20130416 18:15:19< fendrin> LordBob_: But I am back around 11:30 German time.
20130416 18:15:55< fendrin> We can discuss the gui then.
20130416 18:16:28< LordBob_> Okay. I'll surely be online by then, but if you don't feel it, we can wait
20130416 18:16:47< LordBob_> *feel like it
20130416 18:17:11< LordBob_> See you later and enjoy your evening
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20130416 18:20:03< fendrin> tx
20130416 18:20:13< fendrin> hi noy
20130416 18:20:58< fendrin> thunderstruck: hi
20130416 18:21:13< thunderstruck> fendrin, hi
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20130416 18:22:14< fendrin> thunderstruck: About LoW. Which version of Wesnoth are you using? The dev from the git respository?
20130416 18:22:49< thunderstruck> fendrin, yes. But I already figured out what was the problem.
20130416 18:23:10< thunderstruck> fendrin, in the _main.cfg there is an #ifdef MULTIPLAYER_DISABLED
20130416 18:23:26< thunderstruck> fendrin, so I removed '_DISABLED' part and it works
20130416 18:23:57< fendrin> thunderstruck: You see that I have ~15 start scenarios for LoW. Each for one chapter and difficult level.
20130416 18:24:13< thunderstruck> fendrin, yes, I see that.
20130416 18:24:28< fendrin> thunderstruck: At the end it would be nice to have only one for each chapter, or best only one at all.
20130416 18:24:45< thunderstruck> fendrin, yup. I already have that in my notes.
20130416 18:25:11< fendrin> thunderstruck: The chapters are done for two reasons: First, 20 scenarios are too much for a MP campaign.
20130416 18:25:37< fendrin> thunderstruck: Second, The number of players change from chapter to chapter (with one exception).
20130416 18:26:13< fendrin> thunderstruck: Thus getting rid of the chapters is only possible if there was a fallback to the player assignment screen between the scenarios.
20130416 18:27:52< fendrin> thunderstruck: The player assignment dialog is another issue. In most MP campaigns the player does most likely not play a predefined faction.
20130416 18:28:38< fendrin> thunderstruck: But he plays a protagonist with a custom recruit list.
20130416 18:29:28< fendrin> thunderstruck: Thus the creator of the game should be allowed to configure a different set of options.
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20130416 18:30:58< fendrin> thunderstruck: A player should be able to choose (or the creator for him) a side, defining the order in a turn.
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20130416 18:31:15< fendrin> thunderstruck: Second, a protagonist bound to the side.
20130416 18:32:01< thunderstruck> fendrin, I have to go AFK for a few minutes, I'll write you back then.
20130416 18:32:32< fendrin> thunderstruck: Okay, but in half an hour I leave and I will be back in about ~4,5 hours.
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20130416 18:35:36< thunderstruck> fendrin, I'm back. Sorry about that.
20130416 18:35:48< thunderstruck> fendrin, what does it mean 'bound to the side' in this context?
20130416 18:36:27< thunderstruck> fendrin, and about what exception you were talking at [17:25
20130416 18:36:29< thunderstruck> ]?
20130416 18:36:31< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, in current multiplayer assignment screen you just bound players to sides and choose a faction + leader?
20130416 18:36:50< thunderstruck> fendrin, yeahn
20130416 18:36:53< thunderstruck> yeah*
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20130416 18:38:11< fendrin> Okay, but the order of the players does matter. Depending on the game style of the players it might make sense that the player of the only side which features leaders (Cloedil's) plays before or after the others.
20130416 18:38:43< fendrin> thunderstruck: In one case the healers are placed first and the allies must move towards the healers on their turn.
20130416 18:39:19< fendrin> thunderstruck: In the other case the units are placed first and it is up to the player of Cleodil to place the healers to the wounded units.
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20130416 18:40:10< fendrin> thunderstruck: Because of that you choose a protagonist (a side) and second, you choose a number for the side.
20130416 18:40:38< fendrin> thunderstruck: Between chapter 3 and 4 the number of players does not change.
20130416 18:41:26< fendrin> s/only side which features leaders/only side which features healers
20130416 18:42:46< fendrin> thunderstruck: okay?
20130416 18:43:17< thunderstruck> fendrin, so the order of players (if possible) should be determined automatically?
20130416 18:43:32< fendrin> no
20130416 18:43:38< fendrin> It should be assignable.
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20130416 18:44:58< fendrin> Say the player thunderstruck joins a not yet started game and thus he appears on the assignment screen.
20130416 18:45:51< fendrin> Either the player himself or the creator of the game will now assign him a role and a side number.
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20130416 18:48:11< thunderstruck> fendrin, well, what I meant by 'automatically' that if player played as a leader the last scenario, he should play it as a leader again in the next scenario unless the game creator reasigns a new role
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20130416 18:48:39< thunderstruck> for him
20130416 18:49:11< fendrin> thunderstruck: Ah yes. There is another issue. In scenario 3 each player plays 2 sides. Later in scenario 7 the same player should control exactly the same sides again.
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20130416 18:50:07< thunderstruck> fendrin, to be honest, I feel a bit confused after your example at [17:38] and [17:39]
20130416 18:50:39< thunderstruck> How does that influence players assignment?
20130416 18:52:19< thunderstruck> fendrin, the issue you mentioned could be solved by assigning a 'mp_player_id' or something to every side in every scenario
20130416 18:53:39< thunderstruck> And the game using that id should place a player to the relevant side if possible
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20130416 19:55:34< Ivanovic> esr: what is the current status of the recompression?
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20130416 20:02:06< mordante> servus
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20130416 20:03:11< mordante> vultraz, I can commit a fix to DiD once the new repo is up and running
20130416 20:03:26< vultraz> ok
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20130416 20:05:02< mordante> LordBob_, fendrin would it be possible to create a wiki page with the new GUI ideas?
20130416 20:05:34< mordante> LordBob_, fendrin FYI in GUI2 it is possible to select GUI elements depending on the size of the screen
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20130416 20:06:20< mordante> eg a button on 25x25 button if the screensize <= 800x600 else 30x30
20130416 20:06:43< mordante> (more tiers are from the code's point of view possible as well)
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20130416 21:11:21< LordBob_> mordante: a wiki page is quite doable, I can even complete the existing GUI revisions page. I would just like to wait until we're fixed on a concept, though
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20130416 21:24:00< mordante> LordBob_, no problem, just like to see the concept nicely fleshed out, I expect some changes to GUI2 are required and having the images together makes it easier to see what needs changing
20130416 21:27:41< LordBob_> mordante: speaking of GUI2; would there be a wiki pageforum thread(s) where I can see what it covers ? It might help avoid wrong choices in upcoming design phases
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20130416 21:32:32< mordante> LordBob_, all information regarding it is on the wiki http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUIToolkit
20130416 21:33:20< mordante> LordBob_, but IMO GUI2 should be adapted to support what we want the GUI to look like
20130416 21:33:23< LordBob_> Great, thanks. So far, all I had found was the GUI improvement thread started by eleazar back in 2010
20130416 21:33:56< mordante> you also saw freim's proposal http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GUI ?
20130416 21:34:31< LordBob_> Yup; Saw it the other say, but I hadn't been able to find it again. I bookmarked
20130416 21:34:55< mordante> ok
20130416 21:36:57< LordBob_> Mordante: so if I get your meaning correctly, so far GUI2 is focused on how the game handles UI elements from a technical point of view, but doesn't include a visual facelift ?
20130416 21:37:31< mordante> yes but it should make it easier to add new art
20130416 21:37:45< mordante> but let's say I'm not an artist
20130416 21:38:12< LordBob_> well, I may know one who is willing to give it a shot :p
20130416 21:38:22< mordante> :-)
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20130416 21:45:08< mordante> I'm off night
20130416 21:45:22< LordBob_> 'night, mordante
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20130416 23:00:37< Kilian]> Hi
20130416 23:01:36< Kilian]> I have a question about the packaging process of the windows packages, do you have a build server managing that task?
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20130416 23:21:44< fendrin> hi LordBob_
20130416 23:22:54< LordBob_> 4lo Fendrin$
20130416 23:23:19< LordBob_> (d'oh, forgot to remove my boxing gloves again, it seems... )
20130416 23:23:27< fendrin> Kilian]: loonycyborg is our windows builder, iirc. He might be able to answer your questions.
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20130416 23:23:37< LordBob_> How was DnD ?
20130416 23:24:15< Kilian]> fendrin: thanks
20130416 23:24:24< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, we play a German roleplaying system. I just told you it was DnD because that is well known :-)
20130416 23:24:34< fendrin> LordBob_: It was very fine, tx.
20130416 23:24:45< bumbadadabum> fendrin: Did you slay any dragons?
20130416 23:25:47< fendrin> bumbadadabum: No, I am the game master. And our first 3 evenings went along without any fighting at all. But that will change soon...
20130416 23:26:04< bumbadadabum> fendrin: did you kill any characters?
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20130416 23:26:50< fendrin> bumbadadabum: Well, yes. But all NPC. It was a ship voyage and the ship went to the ground of sea during a storm. Many sailors died.
20130416 23:27:33< bumbadadabum> no "you roll 1, a rock falls on your head and you die"?
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20130416 23:49:15< flix> does somebody know how to use the AI Arena? I try to plug in a own recruitment CA and have problems with it.
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20130416 23:52:03< flix> when i :inspect the "ai component structure" I see two stage[main-loops] defined. One with my recruitment CA and one with the default recruitment CA
20130416 23:53:37< mattsc> flix: I have never used it as I have my own test scenarios, sorry
20130416 23:58:36< thunderstruck> fendrin, hi again. Are you able to continue our discussion? Or maybe we should just start over and clarify the main issues with MP campaign support?
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 17 00:00:18 2013