--- Log opened Wed Apr 17 00:00:18 2013
20130417 00:00:32< fendrin> thunderstruck: Sure
20130417 00:00:53< flix> mattsc: Hello again :) I just noticed that when I load my AI to a normal multiplayer game I encounter the same problem... Two defined stages... Any idea?
20130417 00:02:29< mattsc> flix: without seeing the code it's hard to say, but my guess would be that you have a macro in there somewhere that includes it without you knowing it.  Or something along those lines...
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20130417 00:03:18< flix> mattsc: macros, okay lets see...
20130417 00:03:21< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. So issue #1: it should be possible to (re)assign players between scenarios in MP campaigns
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20130417 00:04:55< thunderstruck> fendrin, issue #2: players should not be allowed to choose standard MP factions when playing MP campaigns. I'm not sure whether I really understood what you meant there, so this might be false.
20130417 00:05:19< Gambit> Github's pack size limit is 2gb
20130417 00:05:23< thunderstruck> fendrin, they should be allowed to choose factions which are stated in that particular MP campaign*
20130417 00:05:31< Gambit> They wanted to know if we needed help, I told them it was our fault, but thanks.
20130417 00:05:48< fendrin> thunderstruck: There might be MP campaigns which allow the player to choose a faction.
20130417 00:06:14< fendrin> thunderstruck: But if you take LoW for example, it doesn't make any sense to play the campaign with drakes.
20130417 00:06:21< thunderstruck> fendrin, ah. so that should be optional and it should be possible to define it somewhere inside a campaign files
20130417 00:06:25< thunderstruck> fendrin, ?
20130417 00:06:33< fendrin> Yes
20130417 00:06:58< fendrin> I bet most MP campaigns are story driven and it is very hard to write a story that fits every faction in Wesnoth.
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20130417 00:08:50< fendrin> thunderstruck: Instead, a story driven MP campaign like LoW features protagonists. In case of LoW that are Kalenz, Landar, Cleodil and Olurf.
20130417 00:09:26< fendrin> thunderstruck: Instead of choosing factions the players or the creator will assign the protagonists to the player.
20130417 00:10:10< thunderstruck> fendrin, so isn't it the same as assigning a side?
20130417 00:10:17< fendrin> thunderstruck: And since you do not know in which order the players want to manage the game it should be possible to say: Player "Nice Guy" is playing Kalenz at side 3.
20130417 00:10:40< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, current side assigning also determines the order of play. And that should be changed.
20130417 00:11:07< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. But wouldn't it cause disbalance in the game play?
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20130417 00:11:55< thunderstruck> fendrin, 'cause I think that campaign developers make their order of turns as they see it is best.
20130417 00:13:26< loonycyborg> Kilian]: I just multiboot to windows xp and build it from command line
20130417 00:13:42< loonycyborg> A single command to build
20130417 00:13:54< loonycyborg> Then upload it to sourceforge :P
20130417 00:13:56< fendrin> thunderstruck: What is the best order depends on how the players like it.
20130417 00:14:04< Kilian]> loonycyborg: thanks for the info
20130417 00:14:57< Kilian]> what do you use for the installer creation? nsis?
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20130417 00:17:05< loonycyborg> Yes
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20130417 00:20:57< thunderstruck> fendrin, let's say the order of turns is: player1, ai1, player2. And the player2 has some units very close to ai1, while player1 is far from ai1. What happens if player2 starts to play before player1?
20130417 00:22:24< fendrin> thunderstruck: The order of the players can't be changed at will during a scenario. Thus it doesn't matter much.
20130417 00:23:11< thunderstruck> fendrin, I meant that this is happening at the very beginning of the game.
20130417 00:23:16< thunderstruck> fendrin, not during a game.
20130417 00:26:07< thunderstruck> fendrin, well, this might not be a best example, but I'm trying to say that the order in which the game is played could make big changes.
20130417 00:26:37< thunderstruck> fendrin, at least that's what I think. You probably know it better as you developed campaigns by yourselves.
20130417 00:26:55< thunderstruck> fendrin, so there are probably no campaigns which would be affected by this.
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20130417 00:29:00< fendrin> thunderstruck: Maybe the "assign protagonists to sides" feature should be optional.
20130417 00:29:15< fendrin> thunderstruck: But in case of LoW I think the campaign would benefit from it.
20130417 00:30:05< thunderstruck> fendrin, yeah. Optional things allow greater flexibility.
20130417 00:31:03< fendrin> thunderstruck: Indeed but wesnoth follows the paradigm: "Options are bad".
20130417 00:31:03< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. issue #3: if player had played on one side in the previous scenario(s), he/she should be placed in appropriate side for the next scenario if possible, but there should also be possible to reassign him/her.
20130417 00:31:17< fendrin> yes
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20130417 00:31:36< thunderstruck> fendrin, are you calling KISS as "options are bad"?
20130417 00:32:11< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, both paradigms are related.
20130417 00:32:56< flix> mattsc: I've got it! it was because I changed the version=10800 inside the ai cfg to something else. Now it's running.
20130417 00:35:09< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/254282
20130417 00:35:32< thunderstruck> fendrin, I imagine it is very hard to keep with that principle as Wesnoth got this big.
20130417 00:35:50< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, I am not a big fan of this paradigms.
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20130417 00:36:41< mattsc> flix: great.  Btw, we should ask Crab_ sometime what the differences between all those version numbers are.  I'm usually using 10710, but using 10703 and 10800 instead seems to make no difference for anything I am doing.
20130417 00:36:49< fendrin> LordBob_: The screenshot shows a menu featuring several icons. The checkbox ones we have since ages. You did the radioboxes and I implemented the engine to use it.
20130417 00:37:16< shadowm> esr: How's the recompression doing?
20130417 00:37:19< fendrin> LordBob_: All actions that have a icon already do feature it. This is only true for the first one here.
20130417 00:37:58< fendrin> LordBob_: Note that this dialog has larger items since the "Resize Map" icon is larger than the font.
20130417 00:38:56< thunderstruck> fendrin, are there anything that I missed out from our previous discussion? Or something more to add?
20130417 00:38:56< LordBob_> fendrin: that's nice to see. I was about to ask about the icon sizes ^^
20130417 00:39:13< fendrin> thunderstruck: I think this is enough for your proposal for now.
20130417 00:40:06< LordBob_> fendrin: based on the latest forum comments, I think we have a winner design-wise. 
20130417 00:40:16< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. I'll try to put it this to my idea page along with other notes/ideas I have tomorrow if I'll have enough time.
20130417 00:40:21< thunderstruck> fendrin, thanks for your help.
20130417 00:40:51< fendrin> thunderstruck: Sure, you are welcome. Please don't bother to ask me more.
20130417 00:41:00< fendrin> LordBob_: Which one?
20130417 00:41:42< LordBob_> fendrin: that would be number 2 from the latest batch
20130417 00:42:29< fendrin> This http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=61415&mode=view one?
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20130417 00:43:18< LordBob_> fendrin: yup. You can use it as a template, and I'll start working on new backgrounds
20130417 00:44:14< fendrin> LordBob_: If we put icons beside the minimap, even the 30 pixel wide ones that won't make the minmap smaller.
20130417 00:44:55< fendrin> I mean compared to how it was before. The sidebar grew to hold exactly one more buttons for terrains ~35 pixels. 
20130417 00:45:08< fendrin> Thus we end up with the same minimap size as before.
20130417 00:45:28< fendrin> The people commenting that the minimap might be to small then weren't aware of this fact.
20130417 00:46:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: it's worth a shot, if only to see how it looks. But there's also the possibility to offer a larger minimap, and the fact that functionnaly those controls don't affect the minimap
20130417 00:48:10< LordBob_> Fendrin: would it be much work to make a screenshot for both alternatives ?
20130417 00:49:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, your mockups are fine enough, I do not think that we need screenshots.
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20130417 00:49:55< fendrin> LordBob_: And, I must say that I like the layouts with only the palette + minimap for small resolutions.
20130417 00:51:24< LordBob_> Fendrin: you mean the one with tools relocated on the left ?
20130417 00:52:24< fendrin> LordBob_: 5 +6
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20130417 00:54:33< LordBob_> So, we would apply this layout for small resolutions, and the layout in 2 for anything above 800*480 ?
20130417 00:54:43< LordBob_> won't it be a bother, code-wise ?
20130417 00:54:56< fendrin> LordBob_: But for large resolutions number 2 is fine, except that we still might to consider map related icons being beside or above the minimap.
20130417 00:55:12< fendrin> LordBob_: No, theme wml is able to do that nicely.
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20130417 00:56:14< fendrin> LordBob_: Still, I like to find a good solution for high resolutions. We later make sure that the editor still works on that tiny 800x480 but it has no priority.
20130417 00:56:36< LordBob_> Agreed.
20130417 00:57:13< fendrin> LordBob_: For the coding of the layout, it would be nice to have the fitting background images first.
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20130417 00:57:43< LordBob_> Let's try the minimap with 30 pix icons on its side (as in #3), and everything else ans in #2
20130417 00:58:30< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah. That is fine. #2 with the minimap of #3
20130417 00:59:44< fendrin> LordBob_: But let's have 5 buttons there. It will make the minimap being more in height than in width which corresponds to the hex field geometry issue we already discussed.
20130417 01:01:41< LordBob_> fendrin: let's give it a try. But in the end, what should really make the decision regarding minimap geometry is how well players can use the minimap
20130417 01:02:05< LordBob_> If no-one so far has been bothered by its aspect ratio, then maybe we shouldn't either
20130417 01:02:22< fendrin> LordBob_: Have a look at my screenshot. It already features 5 buttons beside the map.
20130417 01:02:58< fendrin> LordBob_: The minimap has roughly the geometry of the game's minimap. If this isn't fine, we should change it in both instances.
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20130417 01:04:31< LordBob_> Mmh...Okay, but it doesn't leave much space for decoration
20130417 01:05:11< LordBob_> we're going to end with a /me wants to put fancy stuff everywhere :p
20130417 01:05:32< fendrin> LordBob_: I think some fancy decoration is fine for a fantasy themed game.
20130417 01:05:33< LordBob_> and can't due to a lack of space
20130417 01:06:08< LordBob_> anyway, i
20130417 01:06:48< fendrin> LordBob_: Just give the sidebar some more pixels in the vertical and add your decoration.
20130417 01:06:48< LordBob_> I'll provide placeholder backgrounds with a grid for buttons placement, so that you can work on the layout without being delayed by my own progress
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20130417 01:09:08< fendrin> LordBob_: Embedding the buttons in a grid might be a good idea anyway, not only for a first try. 
20130417 01:09:21< LordBob_> One thing that I'd want to check: I konw that ingame at least, there is (was ?) a space reserved in the upper menu bar to display informative text. Does it also exist in the editor, and how big is it ?
20130417 01:10:08< fendrin> You mean the terrain info + coordinates of the current hex field under the cursor?
20130417 01:10:10< LordBob_> *know
20130417 01:10:19< LordBob_> yeah, that
20130417 01:10:33< fendrin> LordBob_: Look at the screenshot.
20130417 01:11:01< LordBob_> well, there isn't anything displayed because a menu is active
20130417 01:11:04< fendrin> This extra information has always been a problem. The terrain info can be very brief like just "Swallow Water"
20130417 01:11:36< fendrin> Or be very large when you have mixed terrain.
20130417 01:12:39< fendrin> LordBob_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=551544#p551544
20130417 01:13:42< LordBob_> Thanks. So, this means I should avoid placing decorative stuff in the upper right corner
20130417 01:14:16< LordBob_> Or, maybe, nothing that does beyond a third of the minimap ?
20130417 01:14:19< fendrin> LordBob_: I think we should discuss to find another solution for the terrain info. For both, the game and the editor.
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20130417 01:14:40< fendrin> LordBob_: The main problem is that I need some more menus in the editor.
20130417 01:15:05< fendrin> LordBob_: At least two, one for the areas and one for the side handling.
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20130417 01:15:39< fendrin> The terrain info is unpredictable in size, thus there is space wasted which is only used sometimes.
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20130417 01:16:57< LordBob_> Well, yeah. since we're going to add new bars, might as well throw a tiny one somewhere for that text
20130417 01:17:50< fendrin> Maybe there is a solution without a bar.
20130417 01:18:19< Kilian]> no bar, no beer ...
20130417 01:19:33< LordBob_> Yeah, maybe a beer is a solution
20130417 01:19:38< LordBob_> but no bears, please
20130417 01:19:48< fendrin> beer only leads to more beer...
20130417 01:20:17< LordBob_> and we don't want our editor crowded with beer, for fear that it develops a beard
20130417 01:21:34 * LordBob_ is cracking. time to sleep draws near -.-
20130417 01:21:49< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, let's get back on topic. The terrain info wastes a lot of space that I want to use for menus.
20130417 01:22:00< LordBob_> absolutely
20130417 01:22:13< fendrin> This is also true for the game on small resolutions.
20130417 01:22:54< LordBob_> but then, overlaying it right on top of the terrain might be hardly readable
20130417 01:23:15< fendrin> LordBob_: Do you want to finish the discussion of the terrain info or do you prefer to sleep first?
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20130417 01:23:52< LordBob_> This might go on for a while. Let's resume the discussion tomorrow
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20130417 01:24:28< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, have a nice sleep :-)
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20130417 01:24:52< LordBob_> Thanks. G'night everyone
20130417 01:24:58< fendrin> bye
20130417 01:25:01< Kilian]> gn8
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20130417 01:54:44< AI0867> fendrin: I got a segfault in the editor on a fairly recent version: http://pastebin.com/3JjWaLw5
20130417 01:55:24< AI0867> in fact, the most recent version
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20130417 02:20:44< fendrin> AI0867: How to reproduce?
20130417 02:26:37< AI0867> I opened 3 maps, closed the original, went fullscreen, scrolled around some...
20130417 02:26:40< AI0867> not sure
20130417 02:39:23< fendrin> AI0867: Okay, tx
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20130417 03:25:53< beetlenaut> AI0867: Are you who I talk to about getting access to the git repo when it's up?
20130417 03:26:57< shadowm> beetlenaut: Also me, unofficially.
20130417 03:27:10< Gambit> Also me, even more unofficially
20130417 03:27:24< Gambit> No, not me.
20130417 03:27:30< beetlenaut> Do I need to do anything, or did I just do it?
20130417 03:27:39< shadowm> What did you do?
20130417 03:27:50< beetlenaut> Asked to get access.
20130417 03:28:07< shadowm> I don't have a magic crystal ball, so I don't know what your account name is.
20130417 03:28:22< beetlenaut> For github?
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20130417 03:29:41< shadowm> Yeah?
20130417 03:29:49< beetlenaut> It's the same as here: beetlenaut
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20130417 03:32:11< shadowm> Added.
20130417 03:32:34< beetlenaut> Thanks.
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20130417 04:28:36 * shadowm prods esr.
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20130417 04:49:02< esr> Working on it.
20130417 04:49:19< Gambit> So esr, about that turd.
20130417 04:49:52< esr> I still don't know that *this* version will upload.
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20130417 04:50:20< Gambit> Github support says if you run into any other problems with the repo you accidentally inflated to an absurd size, just let them know.
20130417 04:50:38< Gambit> And also the max pack file size their servers are configured to accept is 2gb.
20130417 04:50:52< Gambit> But I assume repacking it will get it back down to 1.6gb where it belongs.
20130417 04:51:23< Gambit> Now I have to go finish wiping off my nose. Good night.
20130417 04:51:44< vultraz> What?
20130417 04:51:51< vultraz> What happened?
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20130417 07:22:40< elf11> Hello, I am a 3rd year student in the CS field and I am interested in working with Wesnoth for this GSoC edition. I have been looking at the ideas page and I findthe AI projects interesting. Right now I am setting up the environment and all the dependencies that I need to compile Wesnoth locally.
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20130417 07:25:28< elf11> I've looked at the EasyCoding and NotSoEasyCoding pages and I want to ask if anyone has any suggestions about some coding tasks that would help me getting started to better understand the code in the AI. I've looked through the AI source code, but I want something more hands-on, so any suggestions?
20130417 07:25:31< elf11> Thank you :)
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20130417 07:35:49< elf11> I also have experience with C++ and little experience with AI implementation too, I have participated in a competition my university has organized last year were we had to implement an AI for ants(something similar to this http://aichallenge.org/). Last summer I worked as an intern for a local company for iOS game development. So I will wait for your suggestions and in the meantime I will finish my set up and start compiling. 
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20130417 08:42:02< ancestral> Seems like I always want to post when there’s maintenance going on
20130417 08:42:29< ancestral> SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]   Too many connections [1040]
20130417 08:43:28< vultraz> ancestral: yeah I'm getting that too
20130417 08:44:06< ancestral> Maybe this isn’t maintenance
20130417 08:44:32< vultraz> shadowm?
20130417 08:44:45< vultraz> it's too early for maintence I think...
20130417 08:44:56< vultraz> unless it changed when the clocks did
20130417 08:44:56< shadowm> Backup in progress.
20130417 08:45:09< shadowm> 03:44:56 <vultraz> unless it changed when the clocks did
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20130417 08:45:18< shadowm> I hope you realize the problem with that statement.
20130417 08:46:19< vultraz> er..
20130417 08:46:22< vultraz> nvm
20130417 08:46:24< vultraz> :P
20130417 08:51:33< ancestral> s/it/the day  or  s/it/DST  etc.
20130417 08:52:09< kelpy> ooh!
20130417 08:52:11< kelpy> question
20130417 08:52:16< kelpy> what doe the s/ mean?
20130417 08:52:25< kelpy> *does
20130417 08:53:03< ancestral> kelpy: Substitution
20130417 08:53:05< ancestral> It’s a Perl thing
20130417 08:53:11< ancestral> http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/s.html
20130417 08:53:31< kelpy> ahhhhhhhhh
20130417 08:53:35< kelpy> ty :)
20130417 08:53:37< ancestral> Basically s/theOldString/theNewString
20130417 08:53:39< shadowm> It actually comes from ed.
20130417 08:53:49< ancestral> ^
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20130417 08:56:06< kelpy> ed?
20130417 08:56:31< shadowm> An ancient text editor.
20130417 08:56:46< kelpy> ah
20130417 08:57:03< shadowm> It's still found in most Unix-based systems.
20130417 08:58:30< shadowm> The sed and Perl versions of the s/PATTERN/REPL/FLAGS command are of course much better known.
20130417 08:59:01< elf11> hello
20130417 08:59:10< shadowm> Hi there, elf11 .
20130417 08:59:37< shadowm> elf11: Regarding AI stuff, the best person to ask about it is Crab_.
20130417 09:00:21< elf11> Oh, okay, thank you. I will wait for him to come online then :) I compiled and build the game from sources everything went alright
20130417 09:00:32< elf11> in the meantime I'll look some more through the code
20130417 09:00:33< elf11> :)
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20130417 09:55:47< LordBob_> Hello people.
20130417 09:56:36< vultraz> hullo
20130417 09:57:27< LordBob_> Would someone be able to point me to the folder in the game package where images for UI elements are stored ? So far, I've found most buttons and the dialog windows, but I'm at a loss for the screen background bars
20130417 09:59:19< shadowm> You have /data/core/images/themes, and pretty much every subdir in /images (yes, /mages, not /data/core/images).
20130417 10:00:28< LordBob_> Perfect. Thank you, shadowm
20130417 10:00:31< shadowm> Okay, /images/[buttons,dialogs,misc] at least, not all subdirs.
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20130417 10:33:00< DaveahamLincoln> so...I've realized that I'm in no way qualified to do this for GSoC, but I'd like to tinker anyway, and hopefully learn something in the process.  currently working on the starting gold bug (https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?20734).  do I need to rebuild every time I make a change in the source or is there an easier way to test my changes?
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20130417 10:37:29< _Coffee> DaveahamLincoln: you can do a few things to speed it up
20130417 10:37:49< _Coffee> do you compile with scons?
20130417 10:37:56< DaveahamLincoln> yep
20130417 10:38:04< _Coffee> then don't do a straight sons
20130417 10:38:15< _Coffee> use the -j parameter to parallel build
20130417 10:38:18< _Coffee> much faster
20130417 10:38:33< _Coffee> I do "scons -j 3" (I have 4 processors)
20130417 10:38:39< _Coffee> leaving one spare
20130417 10:39:06< _Coffee> you can also create script that will launch a test scenario straight up
20130417 10:39:10< shadowm> Some people advise the opposite, -j <# cores + 1>.
20130417 10:39:21< _Coffee> by using "wesnoth -m", etc.
20130417 10:39:24< _Coffee> yeah
20130417 10:39:30< _Coffee> worht testing
20130417 10:39:39< _Coffee> I have no hyperthreading so it slows down for me with more
20130417 10:39:49< DaveahamLincoln> sounds good.  how does the wesnoth -m functionality work?
20130417 10:39:59< DaveahamLincoln> er...flag...
20130417 10:40:01< _Coffee> read the f* manual :)
20130417 10:40:13< _Coffee> this will start a multiplayer scenario
20130417 10:40:20< shadowm> wesnoth --help
20130417 10:40:40< DaveahamLincoln> sweet, didn't know that was a thing.  thanks guys!
20130417 10:41:53< thunderstruck> DaveahamLincoln, I think that bug has been fixed: https://gna.org/patch/?3846
20130417 10:42:36< DaveahamLincoln> well, at least I had the same solution
20130417 10:42:44< DaveahamLincoln> it's something
20130417 10:42:59< thunderstruck> DaveahamLincoln, that's great. I'm just letting you know in case you didn't notice.
20130417 10:43:12< DaveahamLincoln> thanks thunderstruck
20130417 10:43:20< DaveahamLincoln> everything moves so fast!!!
20130417 10:44:04< _Coffee> wesnoth's been around a while -- I'm sure there are bugs that have lasted a long time there :D
20130417 10:44:50< shadowm> Wesnoth has been around for about 9.9 years.
20130417 10:44:57< _Coffee> I'm sure you'll find a bug or 2 to keep you happy
20130417 10:45:44< DaveahamLincoln> It'll give me something to do in my philosophy class at the very least :D
20130417 10:46:27< _Coffee> lol, I'm not sure any of us can encourage that sort of thing
20130417 10:49:32< DaveahamLincoln> er...in that case...it'll give me something to do "in my free time" at the very least.
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20130417 11:05:04< elf11> okay, I've done the draft for the proposal, now waiting for Crab_ to talk about the AI projects
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20130417 15:53:46< razvan_florea> hello!
20130417 15:54:22< razvan_florea> i want to write some testing code
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20130417 15:55:08< razvan_florea> iand i need some help
20130417 15:55:28< razvan_florea> anybody can help me?
20130417 15:56:24< razvan_florea> i want to get familiarized with the code in order to make a good application for gsoc
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20130417 15:57:45< dementor> Is there a developers mailing list?
20130417 15:57:51< dementor> I could not find one for this.
20130417 15:58:09< razvan_florea> dementor, yes
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20130417 15:58:17< razvan_florea> just a minute
20130417 15:59:03< razvan_florea> https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev/
20130417 16:01:07< dementor> thanks
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20130417 16:53:21< mattsc> razvan_florea: it's hard to help with such a general questions.  We usually recommend that you grab a bug or one of the easy coding tasks and just try it.  Then ask if you have specific questions.
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20130417 16:55:31< mattsc> bumbadadabum: FYI, most of the Goto Micro AI is up and running.  I am currently struggling with the avoid_enemies= key.
20130417 16:55:55< mattsc> It's conceptually simple, but there are so many combinations of path finding to do that it can be really slow.
20130417 16:55:56< bumbadadabum> mattsc: Awesome!
20130417 16:56:09< bumbadadabum> (not the avoid_enemies= part)
20130417 16:57:46< mattsc> bumbadadabum: if there's something specific that you want out of it that it doesn't do atm, let me know.  It's likely easier to do now that later.
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20130417 17:00:58< flix> mattsc: why is this on the EasyCoding page?: "Set up a capability for letting a custom AI choose what unit type a unit advances to at the time of leveling up." Isn't it quite complex? As far as I can see it is chosen randomly inside dialogs.*pp what unit will a non human player advance to. A lot of design decisions have to be made if I would try to implement such functionality. For example the AI need to be activated inside a humans turn (when a AI's unit i
20130417 17:02:02< bumbadadabum> mattsc: the goto unit's caution?
20130417 17:02:13< bumbadadabum> although that's not really big
20130417 17:02:29< elf11> mattsc, do you have any suggestions for some starting tasks to get a better more familiar with the code regarding the AI GSoC projects?
20130417 17:02:50< mattsc> bumbadadabum: that's what avoid_enemies is supposed to be.  It's not just a true/false, but a numerical value how much the unit tries to avoid enemies.
20130417 17:03:13< bumbadadabum> oh ok
20130417 17:03:27< bumbadadabum> mattsc: is there already a micro_ai for targeting units?
20130417 17:03:37< mattsc> elf11: the ideas I had are on the Easy Coding page.
20130417 17:04:04< elf11> I've looked through them already, was thinking more if you have a suggestion on where to start :)
20130417 17:05:10< mattsc> flix: this task is not meant as setting up the decision process which unit to advance to, but to give a custom AI the option to choose the advancement, based on a function that can then be provided by the AI coder.
20130417 17:06:14< mattsc> elf11: How to get started on the GSoC projects themselves?
20130417 17:06:22< razvan_florea> mattsc: I have a specific question
20130417 17:07:02< razvan_florea> mattsc: I'm trying to give a mark to all the hexes that a player can reach
20130417 17:07:40< razvan_florea> The mark will be better for the hexes that can provide safety
20130417 17:08:11< razvan_florea> I don't know where will be the best choice to put my function
20130417 17:09:13< mattsc> razvan_florea: I assume you mean a C++ function  (in which case I might not know the answer) ?
20130417 17:09:14< razvan_florea> I need to have access at the map to take into consideration when calculating the enemies, the ground...
20130417 17:09:23< razvan_florea> yes, c++
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20130417 17:11:02< mattsc> razvan_florea: and this is for moving units with the AI?
20130417 17:11:23< mattsc> as in, find places to move toward?
20130417 17:12:20< razvan_florea> Crab gave me a task
20130417 17:12:33< razvan_florea> It could be for moving units with that AI
20130417 17:12:53< flix> mattsc: okay, this function should not be a CA, right? It have to be implemented by a AI developer independent to the CAs and outside the main_loop somehow. Is there something similar to this I could take a look at? 
20130417 17:12:55< mattsc> razvan_florea: The path finding functions are currently in src/pathfind, so you could start there.
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20130417 17:13:14< mattsc> ... and then Crab_ could tell you later if it should be somewhere else
20130417 17:13:20< mattsc> afk for a few minutes ...
20130417 17:15:51< elf11> mattsc, what I am asking is that I want to work on setting up a capability for letting a custom AI choose what unit type a unit advances to at the time of leveling up so what files in the AI source code files should I look more carefully into?
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20130417 17:22:50< flix> elf11: seems that we are working on the same problem. If you want we can try to figure this out together. I haven't any specific ideas yet neither ;). I you've overseen it start by reading my questions to mattsc above
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20130417 17:25:49< elf11> flix, hello, I've seen in the ideas page that you were working on the goto_x, goto_y issue, did you figure that one out? and yes we can try to figure this one together, I've read your question to mattsc
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20130417 17:27:58< flix> elf11: yes, i did. Let's wait for mattsc to return. Maybe he can give us some hints
20130417 17:29:54< elf11> flix, yeah, I've seen the patch :) and yes let's wait for mattsc to return
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20130417 17:36:10< mattsc> flix, elf11: sorry, phone call ...
20130417 17:36:35< elf11> mattsc, no problem
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20130417 17:37:18< mattsc> To be honest, I am not exactly sure what the best way of doing this is, but here's how I would start to look into it (I am coming into this more from the "user" side, although I do minor meddling with the C++ code occasionally):
20130417 17:37:41< Nephro> Hello. To any students applying for the AI projects: I might answer some of your questions. I've done some work with AI in wesnoth.
20130417 17:38:03< mattsc> Hi, Nephro.
20130417 17:38:15< Nephro> hi, mattsc 
20130417 17:38:31< mattsc> Yeah, Nephro might be better to talk to about it, so let me just outline the idea:
20130417 17:39:10< mattsc> So, when a unit advances and it's on a human-controlled side, the game brings up a selection dialog.
20130417 17:40:05< mattsc> If it is on an AI-controlled side, we could check whether an evaluation function is defined.  If not, use the current method.  If yes, get the unit type from that function.
20130417 17:40:37< mattsc> The evaluation function could be a lua function defined in as and aspect in an [ai] tag.
20130417 17:40:55< mattsc> * defined as an aspect in ...
20130417 17:41:05< mattsc> That's kind of how I had imagined it.
20130417 17:41:38< flix> mattsc: as an aspect? Souds good to me. Are the any aspects which are defined as a function like this one? So we can have a look?
20130417 17:42:01< mattsc> flix: so yes, you are right.  It should not be a CA, but simply a "hook" to an evaluation function.
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20130417 17:43:01< mattsc> flix: I don't think so.  Current aspects are all either indivdual values or filters (of a sort) AFAIK
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20130417 17:44:33< bumbadadabum> thunderstruck: http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs-aloft.gif
20130417 17:44:48< bumbadadabum> I like what you want to do
20130417 17:44:53< flix> mattsc: I understand... Okay we try to figure it out. Assuming we have defined such an aspect later. Any idea how we actually could test it? 
20130417 17:45:03< mattsc> flix: but you could probably look at how the CA evaluation functions are executed and try to use the same method.
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20130417 17:46:34< mattsc> flix: testing, yeah, that part I know.  You set up a situation in a testing scenario where a unit is certain to level up on the next attack, then run that attack.
20130417 17:47:02< mattsc> I would do that using the test scenario in AI-demos, so you can use that as a template.
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20130417 17:47:41< mattsc> Then it's a simple as: load save, right-click to test, repeat.
20130417 17:48:07< mattsc> Or, if you don't actually execute things, it's just right-clicking without even having to reload in between.
20130417 17:48:23< Stephen_Nieroda> Can any dev tell me if starting gold of 0 in Sceptre of Fire is intentional or a bug?
20130417 17:48:37< Stephen_Nieroda> As seen in this bug report: http://gna.org/bugs/?20734
20130417 17:49:02< zookeeper> bug
20130417 17:49:35< mattsc> As for implementing this task, I'm sorry that I am not of more help.  I _think_ it should be relatively easy to do this, but I might not now the intricacies of it.
20130417 17:49:37< bumbadadabum> Stephen_Nieroda: That's not fixed?
20130417 17:49:53< zookeeper> bumbadadabum, it was only recently spotted, AFAIK
20130417 17:49:56< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: Am I allowed to change this to 100 and submit a patch?
20130417 17:50:07< mattsc> If you want to be certain before getting started, you'll have to ask Crab_, or maybe Nephro 
20130417 17:50:09< zookeeper> bumbadadabum, no, we want the bug itself fixed
20130417 17:50:31< zookeeper> (if no one fixes the bug before the next release, then sure, i'll do it)
20130417 17:50:32< bumbadadabum> uhu
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20130417 17:50:49< bumbadadabum> wouldn't changing it to 100 work for now
20130417 17:50:54< zookeeper> it would
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20130417 17:51:11< bumbadadabum> It's not like it hurts anything
20130417 17:51:13< flix> mattsc: okay, we will try to figure something out... I'll write a note to the wiki page as soon as we have specific ideas
20130417 17:51:29< bumbadadabum> it just makes it playable until the bug itself is fixed
20130417 17:53:25< mattsc> bumbadadabum, zookeeper, Stephen_Nieroda: a patch was submitted on this: https://gna.org/patch/?3846
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20130417 17:55:43< zookeeper> i guess he makes a good point that it'd even be better to not fix it WML-side... at least this way we notice if the default breaks.
20130417 17:55:53< zookeeper> s/fix/clarify
20130417 17:56:27< mattsc> flix, elf11: ok, sounds good.  I know Lua AI reasonably well (and how to use the AI in general) and am happy to help with those types of questions.
20130417 17:56:30< zookeeper> we could add some other unconventional WML here and there just for that purpose, too :P
20130417 17:56:43< mattsc> I only have a basic understanding of the C++ side of things, so I have to refer you to others cc. "hardcore implementation questions".  :)
20130417 17:57:12< flix> mattsc: thank you! We appreciate it!!!
20130417 17:57:24< elf11> mattsc, thank you :)
20130417 17:57:52< mattsc> flix, elf11: no worries.  I am happy to see so much interest in the AI tasks!
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20130417 18:14:33< StephenNieroda> Hello, I need to fix a bug for a class. Are there any easy one's available that aren't already patched?
20130417 18:15:00< StephenNieroda> I was having trouble finding available ones in the bug database
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20130417 18:27:40< fendrin> LordBob_: hello
20130417 18:27:59< LordBob_> Hi fendrin
20130417 18:28:32< thunderstruck> bumbadadabum, what exactly were you talking about? If it is about GSoC, I haven't put my proposal yet..
20130417 18:29:07< fendrin> LordBob_: I have a proposal for the terrain info problem.
20130417 18:29:28< LordBob_> fendrin: go ahead, we didn't finish that part yesterday
20130417 18:31:34< fendrin> A terrain is either a base terrain, for those a unit_type comes with values like resistance and move costs.
20130417 18:31:48< fendrin> Or it is an alias of a base terrain.
20130417 18:32:18< fendrin> Or it is a mixed terrain, being mixed at of most 3 base terrains.
20130417 18:32:44< LordBob_> So far, I get it
20130417 18:33:03< fendrin> The base terrains match the terrain groups mostly.
20130417 18:33:31< fendrin> With the exception of swamp, riff and deep water.
20130417 18:33:58< fendrin> Thus I propose to use the editor group terrain icons for displaying the configuration of a terrain.
20130417 18:34:34< fendrin> This will give us a widget that has a predictable size.
20130417 18:35:10< fendrin> joah
20130417 18:36:01< LordBob_> Just to be sure, we're still refering to the terrain info display that currently occupies the right end of the menu bar ?
20130417 18:36:34< fendrin> yes
20130417 18:37:20< LordBob_> okay. So you would detect the terrain type and return its parent group icon
20130417 18:37:35< LordBob_> How about the three specific ones you mentionned ?
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20130417 18:38:11< fendrin> Well, those have no icons... Thus I would need an artist...
20130417 18:38:45< LordBob_> Ah. I might know one... :D
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20130417 18:39:49< fendrin> Well, I have no icons at all since the current terrain group buttons are in one piece, there are no overlay icons. They would all have to be extracted.
20130417 18:41:03< fendrin> LordBob_: I would also use this terrain icons everywhere a unit's terrain values are shown.
20130417 18:41:13< LordBob_> No sweat, I was already planning to revamp them anyway. What would be their required size ? 
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20130417 18:44:00< fendrin> LordBob_: Icons currently displayed in the topbar are at 16x16.
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20130417 18:47:01< LordBob_> Such as the upkeep, gold etc. ? Ok. That's tiny, though. Some of those icons might be difficult to recognize
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20130417 18:48:07< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the icons in the group buttons are mostly at the 16x16 size already. 
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20130417 18:49:12< LordBob_> True. But since we will have a 30 pixels button for group selection, I was hoping maybe to enlarge them. Ah, nevermind
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20130417 18:52:09< LordBob_> Fendrin: another question: what would happen with terrains such as bridges ? As far as I know there is such a group, but I doubt there's such an attribute as "bridge resistance". What would show up in the terrain info ?
20130417 18:52:47< fendrin> LordBob_: A bridge is a mixed terrain between flat and the water it covers. 
20130417 18:53:21< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus it is <flat icon>/<shallow water icon> or <flat icon>/<deep water icon>
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20130417 18:55:32< LordBob_> Okay. So, no matter the terrain, you'll always have a mean of returning its "base terrain" components. That's great
20130417 18:55:41< fendrin> indeed
20130417 18:57:11< LordBob_> Fendrin: while we're at icons, what became of unit traits and resistances icons? I found a thread in the forum when doing UI search, but haven't played enough recently to know if it was done in the end
20130417 18:57:46< fendrin> LordBob_: I have a working prototype featuring them. I have hope that we put them in use when we redo the game gui.
20130417 18:59:21< LordBob_> Nice. Let me know if you're still missing any: I'll soon be doing a whole lot of icons, so it might be a good opportunity
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20130417 19:38:03< Crab___> elf11: hello
20130417 19:38:16< elf11> Crab___, hello
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20130417 19:38:58< Crab_> elf11: I see in the logs that you wanted to talk about the AI GSOC projects
20130417 19:39:04< elf11> I am glad that I've caught you online, I don't know if you've read what I posted earlier
20130417 19:39:19< elf11> yeah that :)
20130417 19:40:01< elf11> in the meantime I've set up codeblocks for working with wesnoth and also read the Hacking guide and looked over the easy coding task
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20130417 19:41:32< elf11> wanted to ask what the right approach to apply with your organization would be and were should I start? Did I do anything wrong so far?(that would be hard since I didn't do much but ehh)
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20130417 19:44:13< Crab_> elf11: you're doing everything right so far. we definitely want you to create a wiki page with your proposal, and 1-2 patches/bugfixes from you. In what particular project you're interested (as we have several AI-related ideas) ?
20130417 19:44:31< Crab_> hi, Nephro
20130417 19:44:41< Nephro> Hi, Crab_ :)
20130417 19:44:52< flix> Crab__: hello Crab_! Have you read my questions? It's logged at 2013/04/15 17:18:54 
20130417 19:45:57< Crab_> flix: yes, I read that one. 
20130417 19:46:54< elf11> Crab_, the wiki page is up there, with the initialQuestionnaire
20130417 19:46:57< Crab_> flix: the improved recruitment algorithm should be harder and more fun to play against. if scenario author wants, he should be able to customize it (that might make recruitment play better or worse, no particular guarantees)
20130417 19:48:27< Crab_> flix: current combat analysis is only partially good. two problems (1) see that map has a lot of water, recruit fish; see where enemies are, they are on land. send fish on land. not good :)  
20130417 19:48:40< elf11> I was thinking about the defense strategy project and would you suggest any bugfixes I should start looking into?
20130417 19:49:09< Crab_> elf11: (a few minutes)
20130417 19:49:21< elf11> Crab_, okay :)
20130417 19:51:26< Crab_> flix: and (2) current combat analysis overrates expensive high-hp-and-damage units, leading to AI recruiting a small amount of expensive units instead of a better mix of low-level units.
20130417 19:52:18< flix> Crab_: hasn't (1) something to do with map analystics and not with combat analystics?
20130417 19:52:57< flix> Crab_: (2) not thought of this so far, right it can be improved!
20130417 19:53:37< Crab_> flix: (1) is a problem of 'lack of communications between map analystics and actual usage of the unit'
20130417 19:54:05< Crab_> flix: to view (2), play vs AI which can recruit a L2 unit. it'll heavily prefer it.
20130417 19:54:23< Crab_> flix: next, recruiting only a few units in the first round is not good in MP context, since if you skip most of your recruitment on turn 1, you will not have enough units when you meet 'in the middle of the map'
20130417 19:55:23< Crab_> flix: your 'purposes' idea might work, but you need to integrate it with later 'capture villages' and 'move to targets' AI phases (so, the units would be initially used taking the initial purpose of their recruitment into account
20130417 19:56:00< Crab_> elf11: for the 'improve AI defense' project, it's important to understand the problem we have with current AI
20130417 19:56:56< Crab_> elf11: afterwards, I might be able to suggest a few initial tasks that can be done.
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20130417 19:57:41< Crab_> elf11: but, first, you need to learn (if you haven't already) what problem we have with our current AI that we want to fix during the summer
20130417 19:57:57< elf11> Crab_, from what I understand so far, the AI is really aggressive but it's not so great with defending
20130417 19:58:26< Crab_> elf11: it's great at killing things, not great when defending. so we artificially make it agressive to 'hide' the problem.
20130417 19:58:40< elf11> from the games I've played I've seen it going really forward with the attacks but not really keeping any troops near the "home base"
20130417 19:58:45< Crab_> elf11: as a direct consequence, it would happily attack at 1:2 gold disadvantage
20130417 19:59:23< Crab_> elf11: so, if you play '300 gold for you, 300 for AI', you'll beat it easily since it would be glad to burn 300 gold of units to kill 150 gold of your units.
20130417 19:59:57< Crab_> and '300 gold for you, 600 for AI' would be (somewhat) balanced (but due to promotions you'll win anyway since your units will be promoted first)
20130417 20:01:06< Crab_> elf11: And when we tell the AI 'only attack at 1:1 gold advantage', we have a problem:
20130417 20:01:24< flix> Crab_: Okay, thanks so far. Have you read the think I wrote on the bottom of the wiki page? That I think the recruitment could be even make use of purpose_requests without an impact to other phases? Especially it could be more configurable for a Scenario editor ("make me 2/4 units good in water an 1/4 to combat grunts and 1/4 rare units for diversity").
20130417 20:01:42< elf11> okay, so somehow we need to level up the situation, what I don't understand it's this statement from the wiki "AI would only do the attacks which are 'good at killing things', but would not do the attacks, leaving only several units on the frontline. "
20130417 20:02:23< Crab_> elf11: for example, AI has 10 units. 4 of those will have attacks that are better than 1:1. AI would make those attacks. but, (1) it would have no clue what to do with the remaining 6 units (unless any good attacks appear later). and (2) it will not consider the effect of next-turn counterattacks on those 4 units which have attacked.
20130417 20:02:35< Crab_> elf11: try playing the AI which has aggression set to 0 or 0.1
20130417 20:02:50< Crab_> elf11: you'll see how it messes things up.
20130417 20:02:59< elf11> okay, will do
20130417 20:03:38< elf11> Crab_, that example up there ^ gave me so much insight :D thanks
20130417 20:03:49< Crab_> elf11: you can change default aggression in data/ai/utils/default_config.cfg
20130417 20:04:01< elf11> I know, thanks
20130417 20:04:43< Crab_> elf11: note that we don't know the solutions to the problem. some ideas: (A) make the AI defend/retreat with most of the units during the 'bad time of day' and do the usuall all-out-attack during the power phase.
20130417 20:05:11< elf11> Crab_, what if we split the units of the AI
20130417 20:05:13< Crab_> elf11: (B) make the AI know how to use the units which don't have good attacks to shield other units
20130417 20:05:31< Crab_> elf11: or (C) make the AI consider the effect of next turn counter-attack better.
20130417 20:06:02< elf11> Yeah, something like that, some units that are better at defending will have to shield and support the attacking units
20130417 20:06:33< Crab_> elf11: something like that. so, play vs low-aggression AI to see how it is, and then let's talk again to find some good starting tasks.
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20130417 20:07:32< elf11> Crab_, I am on that one :)
20130417 20:08:21< Crab_> flix: (reading)
20130417 20:09:49< Crab_> flix: I would say that it's important for the AI to store the 'purpose' of the recruited units with the unit and use it initially (it might become obsolete after a turn or two, but it might be helpful on the next turn if the idea behind recruiting the unit is still valid)
20130417 20:10:56< Crab_> flix: also note that scenario creators would be happy not to tweak recruitment at all in most cases
20130417 20:11:27< Crab_> flix: but if they spot any glitches or things that they don't like, they'll try to change any parameters we give to them trying to make the AI behave 'better' (for their definition of better)
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20130417 20:11:48< flix> Crab_: Yes, storing shouldn't be a problem. But making use of the 'purposes' in the other phases. So I thought, that for my project I should start only altering the recruitment phase (and store purpuses). If i'm successfull, I could later add functionality in other phases
20130417 20:12:28< Crab_> flix: if you add a system of storing 'ai hints' in units, that can be later used by other stages/candidate actions.
20130417 20:12:45< Crab_> flix: and you're right, the main focus of the project is recruitment phase.
20130417 20:14:21< flix> Crab_: can I use this idea for my proposal? Should we define some project goals for that (later)? 
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20130417 20:14:50< Crab_> flix: by the way, some things that scenario designers don't like include "AI recruits tons of same unit", "AI doesn't recruit a special unit I gave it and I absolutely want it to recruit" , (you can also ask for more on wesnoth's forums)
20130417 20:15:35< flix> Crab_: I will have a look on related topics in the forum!
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20130417 20:15:46< Crab_> flix: afterwards, you can just ask :)
20130417 20:15:52< Crab_> flix: but looking first is a good idea as well.
20130417 20:15:52< flix> okay
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20130417 20:16:56< Crab_> flix: yes, you can base your proposal on purpose-driven-recruitment. I think that you should provide a mechanism for passing the info to other phases (but actually changing them is not a high priority)
20130417 20:18:42< flix> Crab_: great! Just 2 more questions: 1. The current RCA AI does't use map analystics at all, right? Is there some work done? Where can I find it?
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20130417 20:21:34< Crab_> flix: current recruitment used in RCA ai is the same pre-RCA recruitment that was in wesnoth for years (with maybe a few bugs fixed and features added). in the past it used basic map analysis to fully blocklist some recruits based on 'bad terrain for them', ( analyze_potential_recruit_movements function ) but it wasn't working well.
20130417 20:23:10< flix> Crab_: ah, it's commented out, I see. But I should find the code
20130417 20:23:29< Crab_> flix: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/ai/formula/recruitment.fai is much more advanced (that recruitment wins vs default recruitment pretty easily).  but it's in pretty funny functional language called formula_ai :)
20130417 20:24:00< flix> Crab_: thanks, I will have a look later!
20130417 20:24:14< Crab_> flix: if you can learn to read it, you can try to see the ideas the original author used. afair, it amounted to finding 'important' locations and checking the performance of units on those locations
20130417 20:24:34< Crab_> flix: note that when developing it, the author used to display the 'important' locations on the map (for easy debugging)
20130417 20:25:17< flix> Crab_: wow, I was wondering if there is something like this! I'm excited to see this
20130417 20:26:03< Crab_> flix: it actually worked (and should still work), but it had bugs and was working only on some maps. but when it worked, it was much better than default ai (and it was proven by running wesnoth in command-line-only mode thousands of times to check it)
20130417 20:26:39< flix> Crab_ :D okay, thanks
20130417 20:29:05< flix> Crab_, elf11, (mattsc): Elf11 and me, we are trying to figure out how to do this task from the Easy coding page: "Set up a capability for letting a custom AI choose what unit type a unit advances to at the time of leveling up."  mattsc suggested to provide functionality to include a lua-function as a [aspect]. Can you estimate how complicated this is to implement this?
20130417 20:30:10< Crab_> for advancements on the AIs turn - easy
20130417 20:30:25< flix> Crab_: As far as I can see, we have to go pretty deep into how the configs are parsed, the aspecs are stored and functions from LUA are evaluated in c++
20130417 20:30:30< Crab_> for out-of-turn advancements - quite complicated (as human can't do it either)
20130417 20:31:36< flix> Crab_: Thats why it would be great, if a scenario editor could define a function as a aspect (with lua). So everytime a AI unit advances this function would be evaluated
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20130417 20:34:26< flix> Crab_: And it would't be 'clean' if we would just do it for the ai's turn. As a scenario editor I would be confused and would't like it.
20130417 20:34:32< Crab_> flix: yes, it has to be an aspect. aspects can be defined in C++ or lua. the default definition might be a C++ aspect (which does the usual random choice, for example)
20130417 20:35:19< Crab_> flix: even humans cannot select advancements out-of-turn. that's a consequence of a general rule 'when it's not your turn, the game doesn't wait for your actions'
20130417 20:35:36< Crab_> flix: to let the AI select advancements out of turn, enable it for humans first.
20130417 20:35:59< flix> Crab_: Oh I didn't know that, okay.
20130417 20:36:13< Crab_> flix: if someone does it for humans, it'll be pretty easy to extend it to AI
20130417 20:36:34< flix> Crab_: Is there a parameter for this or is it a feature request? :)
20130417 20:36:48< Crab_> flix: it's like a lazy feature request somewhere
20130417 20:37:05< Crab_> flix: and there's an era where it's possible to pre-set advancements.
20130417 20:37:32< Crab_> flix: you set (on your turn) into what you'd like you unit to advance (if it happens out of your turn)
20130417 20:40:32< flix> Crab_: I see. So we could start by letting a human chose the advancement out of turn? It seems not so hard for me, why isn't this implemented yet? Are there maybe some complexities when it comes to network games? 
20130417 20:41:09< Crab_> flix: for that easy coding task, it's probably better to let the AI do advancement on it's own turn.
20130417 20:41:47< Crab_> flix: but, if you want a much harder task, you can try to see if it'd be possible to allow advancements out of turn (but it's way messier :) )
20130417 20:41:51< flix> Crab_: and provide a aspect-lua-function for this?
20130417 20:43:24< elf11> Crab_, I've played some session with the AI aggression set to 0, it does attack badly, like it only attacks when it has superior number or units, the AI spreading on the map is also affected somehow, or it might have just been a coincidence?
20130417 20:44:19< Crab_> flix: yes, the place which now calls a UI dialog to select units for humans and does a random selection for the AI would instead call AI to do it (which would call an aspect function)
20130417 20:45:50< Crab_> elf11: it's most likely a consequence of 'attack rating = aggression_part - some_stuff' . now with aggression 0, aggression-based part of the rating is usually smaller, so that -some_stuff part brings the attack rating down so the AI tries to avoid attacks if there're any 'bad circumstances' like enemy units present around.
20130417 20:46:02< Nephro> Crab_: are there going to be other project suggestions or the list is somewhat final?
20130417 20:46:40< Crab_> Nephro: a student can propose his own idea, so the list is not final. but most likely the list won't be expanded unless there'll be other mentors.
20130417 20:46:57< flix> Crab_: Okay, the "(which would call an aspect function)" seems to me the hardest part, because I don't know yet how c++ and lua are working together. I had a look into how c++ handles the CAs written in lua. Is there another place we could have a look at?
20130417 20:47:17< Crab_> Nephro: so if you'd volunteer as a mentor (you've got enough experience to do that :) ), for example, you're welcome to add your own ideas :)
20130417 20:47:45< Crab_> flix: it's somewhat tricky here. to make it simpler, ignore lua for the moment
20130417 20:48:12< Crab_> flix: we have the 'ai context', containing all stuff that are specific to a particular AI
20130417 20:48:38< Crab_> flix: it has a bunch of aspects, which are usually evaluated to values
20130417 20:48:44< elf11> Crab_, I understand, so maybe the attack_ratting should be calculated some other way...
20130417 20:49:12< elf11> besides splitting the units in 2, defending units and attacking units for the AI
20130417 20:49:18< flix> Crab_: So we first assume, that the aspect is static? Like 'advance unit1 always to unit2'
20130417 20:49:34< Crab_> flix: e.g. aggression is of type double, there are bool/string aspects
20130417 20:50:14< Crab_> flix: so, you can make a new aspect of string type (and let this string be 'advance unit1 to unit2, ... ')
20130417 20:50:17< flix> I've seen this, so I thought moving functions around in the 'ai context' is maybe a little bit tricky
20130417 20:50:27< Crab_> flix: that's a good first start.
20130417 20:50:42< Nephro> Crab_: I'm in a weird spot right now, financially, if it'd be possible, I'd rather try myself as a student once more, though I see, how that could be a bit weird on it's own. I'm also still waiting on the reply from the summer placement, and even though I am not the most optimistic about it, I'd rather not make any moves before I receive it
20130417 20:50:43< Crab_> flix: but, you can make an aspect a type of which would be 'function which takes a unit and returns a string'
20130417 20:51:41< Crab_> Nephro: gsoc timelines are shifted this year, so you have some time
20130417 20:52:09< elf11> Crab_, so what next?
20130417 20:52:33< Crab_> flix: so, when implementing it in C++, it'll get a unit, get a list of all possible advancements, select random.
20130417 20:53:17< Crab_> flix: when implementing it in lua, you'd just wrap a lua function that takes a unit and returns a string (and let the function writer figure out what advancement to select and return)
20130417 20:53:25< Nephro> Crab_: how much time daily would mentoring approx. take? I'd be more than happy to try and help someone out throughout his GSoC, if I get the summer placement, as long as it doesn't interfere too much. 
20130417 20:54:14< Crab_> Nephro: depends on the student you pick. 2-10 hours.
20130417 20:59:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, hi.
20130417 20:59:47< Crab_> thunderstruck: hi
20130417 21:00:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, I made a draft for my proposal. There are mainly requirements there.
20130417 21:00:14< thunderstruck> Crab_, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Thunderstruck
20130417 21:00:28< Crab_> thunderstruck: (will read in a few minutes), thanks
20130417 21:00:33< flix> Crab_: I don't understand yet, how to actually deal with this functions. But I start to implement a static version, okay?
20130417 21:00:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, thanks.
20130417 21:01:07< Crab_> flix: yes. do a static C++ version, it'll be easy enough, copy any existing string aspect, then find a way to call the ai from the place where advancements are selected.
20130417 21:01:15< Crab_> elf11: so, next, you need to show us that you can do some AI modifications in wesnoth (using C++ or lua)
20130417 21:01:31< thunderstruck> fendrin, I think it would also be nice if you read my proposal draft when you have a moment :) http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Thunderstruck
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20130417 21:03:43< Crab_> elf11: I can try to find some small task for you, if you want.
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20130417 21:04:20< elf11> Crab_, okay I will prefer C++ but I will lear lua too :) and yes please if you'd like to find something for me to tweak it would be grand
20130417 21:06:03< mattsc> Crab_, elf11: how about making the old (easier) aspect format work again in [ai] tags specifying a new version?
20130417 21:06:29< Crab_> mattsc: that's slightly different task. also good, but not as good with actually making the AI do something.
20130417 21:06:45< mattsc> Crab_: true
20130417 21:11:34< Crab_> elf11: (thinking about a suitable task atm)
20130417 21:12:40< elf11> Crab_, okay, no problem in the meantime I am looking with flix through the AI unit leveling up one :)
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20130417 21:20:52< kelpy> Crab_; got a moment?
20130417 21:21:04< Crab_> elf11: a good thing to try would be something like that : make the AI understand how to deal with own units which are close to levelup or enemy units which are close to levelup (whatever would be easier). humans can usually arrange (with a pretty high %chance) a levelup of their own unit if it has like 38/39 xp
20130417 21:21:18< Crab_> elf11: (even if it has 1-2 hp left); then can also arrange (with a pretty high %chance) an attack on enemy unit in a similar situation which will kill that unit while not letting it levelup.
20130417 21:22:02< Crab_> elf11: for the demo purposes, it's ok if you make the AI do only those attacks (or only one of those attacks)
20130417 21:22:14< Crab_> kelpy: a bit
20130417 21:23:01< kelpy> Crab_; when you do, Id like to discuss the recruitment algorithm refactoring.
20130417 21:23:03< Crab_> elf11: e.g. as a chess puzzle - when the units would be positioned on a map in a way that would allow a combo to levelup own unit or prevent enemy levelup, the AI should have enough knowledge to see it (either by doing it or by displaying some info things)
20130417 21:23:35< Crab_> kelpy: tomorrow from ~11:00 GMT to ~19:00 GMT would be a good time.
20130417 21:23:43< Crab_> kelpy: but I can answer a quick question or two now
20130417 21:23:53< kelpy> Crab_; ty
20130417 21:24:04< kelpy> I can wait
20130417 21:24:19< thunderstruck> kelpy, it seems that when the Crab_ shows up here this channel gets wild :)
20130417 21:24:40< kelpy> thunderstruck: Im noticing :P
20130417 21:24:49< kelpy> hes quite popular
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20130417 21:27:14< Crab_> kelpy: you can also send questions via forum PM (Crab on wesnoth's forums)
20130417 21:28:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: (reading)
20130417 21:29:11< thunderstruck> Crab_, I hope that you won't be bothered because it is so draft-ish
20130417 21:30:11< thunderstruck> Crab_, and what I want to know if I am heading towards the right direction. If so, are there any false/ambiguous (except the ones marked with '?') requirements?
20130417 21:30:47< Crab_> thunderstruck: the direction looks good. it shows that you've been talking with fendrin recently :)
20130417 21:31:17< lipkab> thunderstruck: How much do you plan to alter the MP interface...?
20130417 21:31:30< thunderstruck> Crab_, I've also posted the message on the forums: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38683
20130417 21:31:36< lipkab> I was planning an overhaul myself.
20130417 21:31:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, but I haven't used any of those ideas, yet.
20130417 21:31:57< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'll add them later as lower priorities/optional or something.
20130417 21:31:59< Crab_> lipkab: we want some new dialogs mostly, plus we want to extend the 'assign players to sides dialog'
20130417 21:32:11< lipkab> Ah ok.
20130417 21:32:42< lipkab> That shouldn't be too much interference.
20130417 21:32:48< Crab_> thunderstruck: 'Allow the game to be played in custom turns (specified not by the campaign's designer, but the players).' can be tricky as the scenario can have events or code tied to side number.
20130417 21:32:53< Crab_> lipkab: great
20130417 21:33:11< Crab_> thunderstruck: campaign designer has to actively 'not care about turn order of ...' in order for it to work.
20130417 21:33:19< thunderstruck> lipkab, yeah. There shouldn't be very drastic changes. Basically GUI just would need to be adjusted because of some engine changes.
20130417 21:33:23< elf11> Crab_, okay so what I would have to do would be for the AI own units to help them upgrade, like if they have high XP they would attack the human units most vulnerable
20130417 21:33:26< elf11> right?
20130417 21:34:13< Crab_> elf11: count the number of XPs you need to upgrade, see where you can get it with best effect. AI already considers healing-at-levelup, but it doesn't consider other benefits fully.
20130417 21:35:35< Crab_> elf11: if you need 3xp, you can attack a L3 unit that hopefully won't kill you
20130417 21:35:48< thunderstruck> Crab_, as for the first point, you are probably right. I don't know too much about those events/code tied.
20130417 21:36:21< thunderstruck> Crab_, but as for the second, wouldn't be the problem solved because 'custom_turns' is optional thing?
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20130417 21:36:52< thunderstruck> Crab_, and also, this is one of the low priority tasks. 
20130417 21:37:39< thunderstruck> Crab_, I don't know too much about them, yet* :)
20130417 21:37:49< Crab_> elf11: as a side note - also, if you have like 38/39xp, you're awfully tough to kill (since opponent will levelup you if he attacks you without killing) - so those units can be useful as shields
20130417 21:38:06< Crab_> elf11: but, for the demo purposes, just find one scenario that is easiest for you to handle
20130417 21:38:51< Crab_> thunderstruck: I suggest putting some stars next to your requirement list items to mark important-vs-not-important
20130417 21:39:16< Crab_> thunderstruck: overall, the list looks good. prioritize it to find several most important tasks.
20130417 21:39:27< thunderstruck> Crab_, that was going to be my next step. I just saw you here, so I quickly finished my draft in order to show it to you.
20130417 21:39:37< Crab_> thunderstruck: great, thanks for that.
20130417 21:40:10< thunderstruck> Crab_, and the step after that, I guess, should be trying to figure out how the top priority tasks should be implemented?
20130417 21:40:39< Crab_> elf11: note that a common human strategy is to 'damage enemy unit by own powerful unit, trying to maximize the % that a weak unit would be able to kill and gain the kill XP.'
20130417 21:41:26< Crab_> elf11: but note that I want a demo from you - so, cut corners, do something simple, ask questions if necessary.
20130417 21:41:56< Crab_> elf11: I just want to have an example of your work (and you'll learn about the parts of code you'll use during your project)
20130417 21:42:38< Crab_> thunderstruck: the next step would probably create some kind of timeline 'first we do that (making X,Y work), then we do that (making Z work), ...'
20130417 21:42:57< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, not only 'how' but 'in what order'
20130417 21:43:03< Crab_> (and bye for today..)
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20130417 21:43:13< elf11> Crab_, okay so I will take into consideration the moment when the AI has a unit close to level up and a good map arrangement in order for it to attack the human units
20130417 21:43:17< thunderstruck> Crab_, bye. Thanks for the help.
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20130417 21:56:07< kelpy> he probably decided he actually needed to do some work :P
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20130417 22:04:24< ValentinD> Hi all, I'm lookinf for Crab_, any idea when he would be connected ?
20130417 22:05:01< thunderstruck> ValentinD, he left about 20 mins ago.
20130417 22:05:09-!- Kexoth [~kex@89.205.70.185] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130417 22:05:13< ValentinD> Damn !
20130417 22:05:14< thunderstruck> ValentinD, you could try to leave him message on the forums.
20130417 22:05:23< thunderstruck> in the*
20130417 22:06:08< ValentinD> Sounds good, thanks !
20130417 22:17:57< flix> I am trying to run wesnoth with the '--test arg' parameter. What format should arg be? A path doesn't seem to work
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20130417 22:19:54< mattsc> flix: it is the ID of the test scenario, which must be in a location Wesnoth knows about in test scenario mode
20130417 22:20:30< mattsc> E.g. for my favorite example ;) : http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs#Micro_AI_Test_and_Demo_Scenarios
20130417 22:22:15< flix> mattsc: there they are again :D
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20130417 22:29:53< flix> mattsc: Is the User data directory a "location wesnoth knows about"? I prefere not to alter too much in my local git repo.
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20130417 22:32:23< lipkab> flix: The user data folder is not within the repo.
20130417 22:32:41< mattsc> flix: check out data/_main.cfg and the '#ifdef TEST' block in it.
20130417 22:33:34< flix> libkap: thx, but thats why i'm asking ;) so I can put my stuff inside there so it wont affect my repo
20130417 22:35:59< lipkab> flix: Oh well. Start Wesnoth from the command line and it'll print the userdata directory's path (along with other information).
20130417 22:37:38< flix> libkab: I know where it is. I try to start a test scenario, which lays my userdata dictionary via '--test arg' 
20130417 22:38:05< flix> *in my userdata dictionary
20130417 22:38:32< lipkab> Ok, then I don't understand the question.
20130417 22:38:33< mattsc> flix: did you see my note ^.  That tells you where you can put test files.
20130417 22:38:44< mattsc> Or what to edit if you want to define a new location.
20130417 22:39:03< flix> mattsc: yes, it was helpful
20130417 22:39:27< mattsc> great
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20130417 23:15:00< Ivanovic> esr: any news from the repackaging? did it complete this time?
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20130417 23:56:17< mattsc> flix: sorry, I was doing something in parallel earlier, so didn't have much time.
20130417 23:57:18< mattsc> I don't know if it was obvious from what I wrote that you could put an '#ifdef TEST' into the _main.cfg of a directory in the user data directory, and then be able to access that test scenario from the cl with '-t'
20130417 23:58:24< mattsc> In fact, I should set it up so that the AI-demos test scenario is accessed in that way (I'm currently doing it differently)
20130417 23:59:48< flix> mattsc: i actually digged even into the python parsing functions until I found out, how to include a file from the users dictionary (now I know with "~" :D)
--- Log closed Thu Apr 18 00:00:22 2013