--- Log opened Fri Apr 19 00:00:29 2013
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20130419 00:05:34< esr> git push --all claims to have succeeded, but I see only one branch creation - for master. This makes me suspicious.
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20130419 00:24:18< shadowm> esr: Yeah, there is only one branch.
20130419 00:24:33< shadowm> What does git branch -a show for you?
20130419 00:25:16< shadowm> Also, I don't think git push --all covers tags.
20130419 00:25:53< shadowm> "Instead of naming each ref to push, specifies that all refs under refs/heads/ be pushed."
20130419 00:26:01< shadowm> --tags: "All refs under refs/tags are pushed, in addition to refspecs explicitly listed on the command line."
20130419 00:26:23< shadowm> esr: Is there any particular reason you didn't use git push --mirror?
20130419 00:26:49< shadowm> Do you have spurious objects there or something?
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20130419 03:27:13< rsyh93> Hi, I want to submit a project for GSoC but I'm not sure where to start
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20130419 03:46:15< mattsc> rsyh93: A good place to start is the page of possible GSoC projects on the Wesnoth wiki.
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20130419 03:47:39< mattsc> Also, have you played Wesnoth before?  It would be good to have at least some basic familiarity with how the game works, esp. if you are interested in one of the AI projects.
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20130419 03:48:11< rsyh932> I played through the tutorial and a little bit of one of the campaigns
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20130419 03:49:29< mattsc> That's good, but depending on which project you are interested in, you might want some more experience with it (we can give you pointers as to what would be good to do).
20130419 03:49:39< mattsc> Other than that, read up on things and ask questions here.
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20130419 03:50:19< perennate> Hi, I was also interested in possibly applying for the gsoc, especially with the improving the server idea
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20130419 03:50:39< mattsc> The more specific the question, the more likely you'll get an answer - but you sometime might have to wait 12-24h because the person knowing the answer might be half way around the world.  :)
20130419 03:51:03< perennate> for the " Add possibility to give reason for "ignore" " feature request, should there be gUI method to add to ignore or just command is okay
20130419 03:51:32< perennate> at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Add_possibility_to_give_reason_for_.22ignore.22
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20130419 03:51:59< mattsc> Is there a gui method to add somebody to the ignore list?  (sorry, I rarely ever play MP, so I forgot)
20130419 03:52:10< perennate> Yes, there's a button for it at least
20130419 03:52:28< mattsc> Ok, then you should implement it for both methods.
20130419 03:52:40< perennate> I haven't looked at the GUI much, but it's through the friends list I think; okay I'll look into the GUI then
20130419 03:52:41< mattsc> But starting with one, whichever is easier, is fine.
20130419 03:52:59< perennate> Yeah, I think I got it to work correctly through text command so far
20130419 03:53:11< mattsc> These tasks are just suggestions for something to do, you can do all or part of it, or do something entirely different.
20130419 03:53:26< mattsc> Mainly what we want to see is that you can navigate your way around the code and do something with it.
20130419 03:53:53< perennate> Are there any more specific ideas for the server?
20130419 03:54:03< mattsc> Another thing, if you are working on a task on the EasyCoding page, add your name to it, or you might get scooped by somebody ...
20130419 03:54:12< perennate> ok :P
20130419 03:54:57< mattsc> As for the server, I'm not the right person to ask...
20130419 03:55:19< mattsc> Soliton, AI0867, shadowm : ^  Who is the right person to ask?
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20130419 04:03:10< shadowm> mattsc: About the add-ons server project? mordante.
20130419 04:04:09< shadowm> Or you mean something else?
20130419 04:05:57< perennate> shadowm: yeah, thanks; would best way to ask be to PM on forum or how?
20130419 04:07:11< shadowm> He prefers IRC. He reads the logs for this channel (you can find a link to the logs in the channel /topic) and if you mention his name he will read your messages later and reply even if you are not around (which is why you should also read the logs).
20130419 04:07:41< perennate> ah, ok, cool
20130419 04:08:27< perennate> mordante.: I was interested in the gsoc idea with improving the server; was wondering if there are some more specific ideas for it
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20130419 04:21:29< seanl> Anybody on here 
20130419 04:21:42< fendrin> seanl: hi
20130419 04:22:01< seanl> Whats the best way to learn the code for the game so that i can start contributing
20130419 04:22:40< fendrin> seanl: Do you want to contribute c++ or wml code?
20130419 04:22:47< fendrin> seanl: or is it lua?
20130419 04:22:52< seanl> c++
20130419 04:22:58< fendrin> We also have java and python involved.
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20130419 04:23:46< seanl> c++ i want to work on the ai for gsoc 
20130419 04:23:49< fendrin> seanl: The easy coding page is a good start if you already feel confident to alter the codebase and do something useful.
20130419 04:24:42< fendrin> seanl: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20130419 04:24:55< fendrin> seanl: Do you know the game?
20130419 04:25:25< fendrin> seanl: I mean, you could pick a feature you know from the game and look how it is implemented. 
20130419 04:25:58< seanl> Yeah i know the game
20130419 04:26:18< fendrin> seanl: Okay, anything you like especially?
20130419 04:28:33< seanl> i was thinking of helping change the ai recruitment 
20130419 04:30:56< fendrin> seanl: Well, I thought more about a little thing we could look up together and understand at a first glance. The AI is most likely not such a thing.
20130419 04:31:07< fendrin> seanl: I am not  an expert at that field.
20130419 04:31:36< seanl> ok 
20130419 04:31:42< fendrin> seanl: Thus the information that is of most value are better contact persons. You should look for a user named crab_ and mattsc.
20130419 04:31:47< fendrin> wesbot: seen crab_?
20130419 04:31:47< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 11h 44m ago.  10h 37m ago person left:
20130419 04:31:56< fendrin> wesbot: seen mattsc
20130419 04:31:57< wesbot> fendrin: Queried user last spoke 36m 37s ago.  mattsc is currently here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20130419 04:32:06< fendrin> mattsc: are you around?
20130419 04:33:01< mattsc> fendrin: yes, but need to be afk for 10-15 min.  Back after that.
20130419 04:34:09< fendrin> seanl: crab_ is from the Ukraine (<- German word). If he still lives there. Should be early in the morning there.
20130419 04:35:10< fendrin> seanl: You might have to live with inconvenient communication times depending on which persons you want to talk/work with.
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20130419 04:35:46< shadowm> It's called the same in English.
20130419 04:36:10< fendrin> seanl: I guess you have already found the src/ai folder containing the c++ ai part?
20130419 04:36:19< fendrin> shadowm: tx
20130419 04:36:19< seanl> yea
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20130419 04:37:38< fendrin> There is a lua interface to it. Thus you only implement the backend in c++ and the actual intelligence is lua scripting.
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20130419 04:38:21< fendrin> An older formula ai called functional scripting language is also around and still functional.
20130419 04:39:10< fendrin> I mean it is working and follows the functional programming paradigm.
20130419 04:39:27< shadowm> Yeah, last time I asked Crab_ about it he said that formula AI would not be maintained further aside from being kept in life support.
20130419 04:39:38< fendrin> Indeed.
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20130419 04:39:53< seanl> So learning lua would be a must?
20130419 04:40:00< fendrin> No.
20130419 04:40:18< fendrin> There is lot of work to do at the backend as well.
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20130419 04:41:18< fendrin> seanl: Something I dislike for example is that the codepathes of most game actions are not sharing the same codepath.
20130419 04:41:50< seanl> hmmm interesting
20130419 04:42:01< fendrin> I mean, there is a file for the ai, and a file for user recruit action.
20130419 04:42:15< fendrin> If you change something you have to do the work twice.
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20130419 04:44:14< mattsc> seanl: Are you going to be around for a little, because I need another 30 min or so.  Sorry for that.
20130419 04:44:38< mattsc> In the meantime, have you checked out the IRC logs of the last week (approximately)?
20130419 04:45:09< seanl> maatsc: yeah that fine i should be around for a while and should be getting on here quite a bit.
20130419 04:45:21< mattsc> Crab_ has given other students quite a bit of information about the AI tasks already, so you might want to read up on that.
20130419 04:45:39< seanl> Ok ill check the logs
20130419 04:45:45< mattsc> seanl: ok, talk to you in a little then (although the person you really want to talk to is Crab_)
20130419 04:45:59< seanl> k thanks
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20130419 04:49:04< grupo> hello there
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20130419 04:55:24< fendrin> hi grupo
20130419 04:55:35< fendrin> shadowm: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=551810#p551810 Do you think my statements hold?
20130419 05:05:12 * shadowm is increasingly curious about the punctuation differences between English and German.
20130419 05:05:36< shadowm> *punctuation/macrostructure
20130419 05:06:28< shadowm> fendrin: I don't know the gamemap rendering code at all.
20130419 05:07:05< mattsc> seanl: ok, I am back.  Still don't have a lot of time, but I can try to answer a couple questions, if you have anything.
20130419 05:08:00< fendrin> shadowm: My third sentence in the posting?
20130419 05:08:39< shadowm> Yes, I suppose that's what you were asking me? I don't really know anything about that code.
20130419 05:10:46< fendrin> shadowm: No, the sentence that sounds very German :-)
20130419 05:13:18< fendrin> shadowm: I just managed to bring the smooth scrolling palette back when one the scroll buttons is used. It was quite tricky.
20130419 05:13:30< fendrin> *of
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20130419 05:25:40< perennate> my god... there's a shooter on my campus
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20130419 05:40:17< mattsc> perennate: you're at MIT?
20130419 05:40:25< perennate> mattsc: yeah
20130419 05:40:43< mattsc> that's scary!
20130419 05:41:07< perennate> I'm in dorm but.. yeah :/ esp after boston marathon
20130419 05:41:34< mattsc> Oh, right, that's right around the corner for you then too ...
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20130419 06:19:43< seanl> perennate:  Says on yahoo it might have just been a firework?
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20130419 07:40:48< Ivanovic> esr: still no git progress news?
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20130419 07:43:14< Ivanovic> esr: if we can't get the changed repo to github soon so that we can back to working on wesnoth i would propose to just move over the old sf.net checkout to github e.g. on saturday or sunday
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20130419 09:02:18< LordBob_> fendrin: ping
20130419 09:02:33< fendrin> LordBob_: pong
20130419 09:03:15< LordBob_> Hello there :)
20130419 09:03:34< fendrin> hi
20130419 09:03:38< LordBob_> Looks like I could soon be done with the backgrounds
20130419 09:03:44< fendrin> nice
20130419 09:03:54< fendrin> I am making progress on the coding side as well.
20130419 09:04:27< fendrin> I had a quick lock on how to avoid the scaling of the elements.
20130419 09:04:44< LordBob_> ha-ha ?
20130419 09:05:10< fendrin> I think it is as easy as just provide large images, which will get scalled if the resolution is even higher.
20130419 09:05:27< fendrin> Thus we only need a extreme large sidebar for example.
20130419 09:05:46< fendrin> Which could be produced by just repeating tiles.
20130419 09:06:41< fendrin> Adding support for real tiling is doable as well, the code in question is only about a side on my screen long.
20130419 09:06:42< LordBob_> Ah. But in this wase, won't it become a resource-guzzler ?
20130419 09:06:49< fendrin> Yes.
20130419 09:07:01< fendrin> That is why I seriously concern to implement real tiling.
20130419 09:07:30< LordBob_> I think that would be an enormous benefit
20130419 09:08:07< LordBob_> Next thing I'll need to know how I need to cut the backgrounds down for you to be able to implement them
20130419 09:08:14< fendrin> Indeed. Currently our gui is only not scaled when you use the 1024x768 resolution.
20130419 09:08:42< LordBob_> Yah, I've started to notice that when doing screenshots on this comuputer
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20130419 09:09:43< fendrin> Even in this resolution, some parts are scaled because we do not have images that even fit our current one.
20130419 09:10:06< fendrin> I think it is a shame that we have neglected our main gui (some dialogs are polished) that long.
20130419 09:11:24< LordBob_> Yeah. Also, it's too bad we can't use partial-cover panels as Blamuryman suggested. There's a huge potential for improvement in there
20130419 09:12:11< fendrin> Well, the performance penalty could be worth the result. 
20130419 09:12:21< LordBob_> Although his idea would work better in high res such as 1600*1200. With that, there'd be plenty of space for nice icons and decorated panels
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20130419 09:13:33< fendrin> LordBob_: I started to implement an icon based theme even before Blamuryman posted the mockups some years ago.
20130419 09:14:03< lipkab> fendrin: The smart fog has already made a serious impact on performance, don't think we should make another one.
20130419 09:14:03< fendrin> LordBob_: I have the thing somewhere on disc, later I will show you some screenshots.
20130419 09:14:20< fendrin> lipkab: smart fog?
20130419 09:14:45< lipkab> The continous fog update.
20130419 09:14:55< lipkab> *continuous.
20130419 09:15:04< fendrin> lipkab: I thought it had been removed again.
20130419 09:15:25< lipkab> Never heard of that.
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20130419 09:15:40< lipkab> jamit improved it quite a bit, but it's still there.
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20130419 09:15:48< LordBob_> fendrin: icon-based theme is pleasing to hear :) I propose that we first produce a fully-functionnal "classic style" UI to make sure that some minimal evolution takes place at least, and then we let ideas run wild and see where this lands :)
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20130419 09:17:11< fendrin> lipkab: The performance penalty might be quite small. We already redraw the game map constantly since we have the animated terrain. I guess unless a user does not disable the animated map, it won't be noticeable.
20130419 09:17:43< fendrin> lipkab: And if the player does so, I might be able to turn of the volatile drawing, or do it less resource intensive.
20130419 09:18:52< fendrin> LordBob_: It especially worked well with the weapons. I used the images we have in the attack dialog (every weapon features an icon there), combined it with an icon for the damage type and one for the melee/ranged.
20130419 09:19:20< fendrin> LordBob_: All this icons are available already.
20130419 09:20:42< LordBob_> I've seen the existing set in the ressource folder. They might require some simplification to work well in an environment that shows many small-scale icons, but overal it's a really nice start
20130419 09:21:50< LordBob_> Some icons such as the upkeep are immediately recognizable despite their small size, however for some of the unit trait icons I had to look twice
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20130419 09:24:21< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, there are still the tooltips which tell the player the meaning of the icons.
20130419 09:25:54< LordBob_> Fendrin: and use them we shall. But still, it will feel like a huge improvement if we're able to come up with a set of icons that are all as easily recognizable as these upkeep/income ones
20130419 09:26:07< fendrin> Indeed.
20130419 09:26:19< LordBob_> Anyway, back to the matter at hand. 
20130419 09:26:30< fendrin> LordBob_: Before you finish a first usable set of graphics, I think we should talk a little about sizes.
20130419 09:26:45< LordBob_> Yup
20130419 09:26:52< fendrin> I mean if you provide a new background, for both the editor and the game sidebar.
20130419 09:27:03< ancestral> LordBob_: If you or anyone does remake any small icons, if there were double-sized ones, that would be totally great. My “retina”-display would thank you for it
20130419 09:27:04< LordBob_> Especially if we're going to tile stuff
20130419 09:27:23< ancestral> (varations/alternates)
20130419 09:28:34< fendrin> LordBob_, ancestral: I like to introduce support for high resolutions. But there is a rule: Every gui element shall be visible at it's full size and beautifulness at the default resolution of 1024x768.
20130419 09:28:55< fendrin> I think this rule is silly with todays displays.
20130419 09:29:00< LordBob_> ancestral: I did take note of your comment the other day. I'm even considering a high res version of every UI control, such as this one: http://imagebin.org/254575
20130419 09:29:13< fendrin> But I couldn't convince Ivanovic to allow me support for higher resolutions.
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20130419 09:30:42< LordBob_> Fendrin: do you mean we cannot even consider creating an alternate display for high res screens ocne we have a working 1024*768 ?
20130419 09:32:08< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, we can. But we have to fight for the idea.
20130419 09:32:18< ancestral> LordBob_: Well, if anything, it’s really easy to downscale than it is to upscale
20130419 09:32:28< fendrin> There is no technical reason not to do so.
20130419 09:32:40< fendrin> It is just an ancient paradigm.
20130419 09:32:47< ancestral> Or, just make the large versions and store it away for later
20130419 09:33:45< fendrin> LordBob_: At least it should be doable to have the wml for the theme being down-loadable from the addon server.
20130419 09:33:55< LordBob_> Fendrin: absolutely. I'm all for giving "the full size and beauty" to average screens, but this shouldn't mean larger screens only get the full pixelated ugliness
20130419 09:34:47< fendrin> LordBob_: I think aiming for full HD is a good idea. Most new screens feature at least this resolution.
20130419 09:34:56< ancestral> It is trivial to create a double-sized GUI theme for resolutions greater than HD. I’ve played with it, it’s just a matter of getting the numbers right and having bigger images
20130419 09:35:20< fendrin> ancestral: Indeed, there is no technical reason not to support high resolutions.
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20130419 09:36:04< zookeeper> sure there's no problem in _making_ more themes for bigger resolutions, it's just the maintenance which will get much more cumbersome.
20130419 09:36:08< LordBob_> Fendrin, Ancestral: agreed. Let's first focus on creating a functional 1024 as we should, and then let's create some sort of HD display UMC
20130419 09:36:24< fendrin> zookeeper: Which maintenance?
20130419 09:37:36< LordBob_> fendrin: there's always maintenance implied, one way or the other
20130419 09:38:27< ancestral> Fortunately, Wesnoth is a pixel art game. The actual in-game graphics don’t need special treatment; the UI of course is different
20130419 09:39:26< fendrin> Well, our current themes know about 1024x768, 800x600, 1024x600 and 800x480. Adding one or two more resolutions will not let the maintenance work explode.
20130419 09:39:33< LordBob_> maybe a menu will be relocated, maybe the map drawing routine will eventually change and this has repercussions on the UI, maybe a glitch happens. Shit just happens. Either way, it's true that supporting different themes involved increased maintenance
20130419 09:40:21< fendrin> Well no. The support for different resolutions is part of a theme.
20130419 09:40:22< zookeeper> that said, i do think a HD theme makes sense. 1024x768 is a pretty ancient resolution.
20130419 09:40:39< fendrin> Adding a new resolution does not imply a new theme.
20130419 09:40:55< zookeeper> fine
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20130419 09:41:53< ancestral> It's just adding a few lines into an existing theme
20130419 09:41:59< fendrin> yo
20130419 09:42:02< LordBob_> fendrin: that depends what we do. for instance, if we try Blamuryman's thing, shouldn't that part happen in a separate, experimental theme ?
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20130419 09:43:01< LordBob_> anyway, we're still in the middle of upgrading the 1024 theme. Let's not waste energy and lose steam before that part is done.
20130419 09:43:03< fendrin> Yes. But theme wml is easy. You saw how quick I implemented most of your mockup in a short time.
20130419 09:43:11< LordBob_> True
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20130419 09:44:02< vultraz> fendrin: you understand all that fancy rect= stuff? o_O
20130419 09:44:08< LordBob_> Fendrin: before we derailed the discussion, you wanted to tell me something about sizes
20130419 09:45:06< LordBob_> (and a separate question: does theme WML resemble CSS at least in part ?)
20130419 09:45:17< LordBob_> (because that, I know)
20130419 09:46:28< fendrin> vultraz: Yes, if you got it once, it's only a matter of getting the numbers right, like ancestral already stated.
20130419 09:47:01< fendrin> vultraz: Well, I have read the spare documentation and then just read the code behind it.
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20130419 09:47:40< fendrin> vultraz: The code which translates the theme wml into screen dimensions is just about a side on my display.
20130419 09:48:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, let's go a little bit in details. There is the theme wml which uses gui1 elements to produce the main screen.
20130419 09:48:55< fendrin> LordBob_: Then you have old gui1 dialogs, those are just hardcoded.
20130419 09:49:27< vultraz> LordBob_: what's the font you use on your mockups?
20130419 09:49:37< fendrin> LordBob_: And then you have the gui2 dialogs which use a system that is more like other modern gui systems.
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20130419 09:50:51< LordBob_> vultraz: the font is named "Ignite the light", but I don't remember where I got it from . It's a free font, so likely on dafont.com
20130419 09:51:04< LordBob_> fendrin: all right
20130419 09:51:06< fendrin> LordBob_: Theme wml defines four coordinates for every element. 
20130419 09:51:21< LordBob_> four ?
20130419 09:51:38< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, the four edges of a rectangle.
20130419 09:51:58< fendrin> LordBob_: Where does the rectangle start? x/y
20130419 09:52:02< vultraz> oh, that;s what it is
20130419 09:52:09< fendrin> Where does it end? a/b
20130419 09:52:19< LordBob_> ah, all right. So, a (x,y) set of coordinates for each corner of the rectangle
20130419 09:52:41< LordBob_> (with x,y = abscisse and ordinate)
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20130419 09:52:50< fendrin> To define a rectangle you need only the upper left and the lower right point, right?
20130419 09:52:57< fendrin> x/y is the upper left 
20130419 09:53:02< fendrin> a/b the lower right
20130419 09:53:08< LordBob_> Ok
20130419 09:53:43< vultraz> but what's all the = + - stuff
20130419 09:54:08< fendrin> say your first element is at 20/20 and it's size is 10/10.
20130419 09:54:35< LordBob_> would yo
20130419 09:54:39< fendrin> Then you define a second one which uses the first one as reference
20130419 09:54:59< fendrin> +3 +3 +3 +3 
20130419 09:54:59< LordBob_> would you have an example file that i could check while you explain ?
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20130419 09:56:02< fendrin> LordBob_: look into data/themes/default.cfg
20130419 09:56:06< fendrin> for the game
20130419 09:56:11< LordBob_> (thanks)
20130419 09:56:14< fendrin> or data/themes/editor.cfg
20130419 09:56:17< fendrin> for the editor.
20130419 09:56:45< fendrin> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=213708#213708 <-- some spare explanation of how the thing works
20130419 09:57:51< fendrin> okay, the example above will lead the second element to be at 23/23/13/13
20130419 09:57:53< LordBob_> okay, got it. so the coordinates you were explaining are the "rect=" lines
20130419 09:57:58< fendrin> yes
20130419 09:58:05< fendrin> also note the ref line
20130419 09:58:29< fendrin> which defines the element we refer to.
20130419 09:58:45< fendrin> if there is no ref line, the element defined before is taken as ref automatically.
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20130419 09:58:55< fendrin> you can place your element absolute
20130419 09:59:26< fendrin> or define it's size and position relative to the ref= element.
20130419 10:00:18< fendrin> the xancor and yancor defines how the element behaves if the current resolution isn't matching the defined one exactly.
20130419 10:00:47< fendrin> say a element is at 150/180 at 1024x768
20130419 10:00:54< LordBob_> ok, this part resembles CSS indeed.
20130419 10:01:16< fendrin> If you do define the ancors to be fixed it will be at the same coordinates in a larger screen.
20130419 10:02:23< LordBob_> Whereas if you say the anchor is right, or bottom ?
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20130419 10:02:56< fendrin> say the anchor is right and your element is 80 pixels away from the right border.
20130419 10:03:16< fendrin> It will stay 80 pixels away from it in other resolutions. 
20130419 10:03:25< fendrin> Which means different coordinates there.
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20130419 10:04:50< fendrin> another example:
20130419 10:05:01< fendrin> one of the editor tool buttons.
20130419 10:05:42< fendrin> The first button, the draw one:
20130419 10:05:48< fendrin>  ref=mini-map
20130419 10:05:50< fendrin>             rect="=-30,+8,+30,+30"
20130419 10:06:51< fendrin> The button left/upper corner will start 30 pixels to the left of the mini-map.
20130419 10:07:06< fendrin> And 8 pixels below the minimap.
20130419 10:07:25< fendrin> The size of the buttons will be 30x30 pixels.
20130419 10:07:59< fendrin> LordBob_, vultraz: Did you got it? Isn't that hard black magic, is it?
20130419 10:08:01< LordBob_> Okay
20130419 10:08:28< vultraz> I guess
20130419 10:08:54< LordBob_> Indeed not. It takes some time getting used to the reference system, but beyond that it's really just maths
20130419 10:08:57< fendrin> Also see the [resolution] tags, which defines what is changed if the resultion does match it.
20130419 10:09:51< fendrin> I mean [partialresolution]
20130419 10:10:19< fendrin> a partialresolution inherits the values of a parent one, and just defines some modifications.
20130419 10:10:26< LordBob_> Ok, I've found them. so today we support the full 1024 and 3 lower resolutions
20130419 10:10:37< LordBob_> (for the game UI)
20130419 10:10:38< fendrin> We could just define a highres one and exchange the buttons there with the bigger ones.
20130419 10:11:05< fendrin> yes
20130419 10:11:27< vultraz> aren't most screens today higher res than 1024*768?
20130419 10:11:36< vultraz> and wider, too?
20130419 10:12:40< LordBob_> Vultraz: that's the case in most new computers. But not everyone has a brand new machine at home, and I think the philosophy of wesnoth has always been to remain accessible to this part of their target demographic
20130419 10:12:58< vultraz> cater to the minority, you mean?
20130419 10:13:23 * vultraz shrugs
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20130419 10:13:52< LordBob_> Well, I'm pretty certain it wasn't a minority at the time they decided to adopt this resolution as their default
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20130419 10:14:15< LordBob_> It's relatively recent that everyone one has a flat high res screen at home.
20130419 10:14:22< vultraz> my monitor is around er...2 years old, and it's 1600x900
20130419 10:14:34< fendrin> mine is 1680x1050
20130419 10:14:54< fendrin> 16:10
20130419 10:15:00< fendrin> yours is at 16:9
20130419 10:15:06< LordBob_> And my graphics tablet is 1600*1200. But not ten years ago, such screens costed an arm and a leg
20130419 10:15:07< vultraz> I like 16:9 better
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20130419 10:15:23< fendrin> I like 16:10 better
20130419 10:15:34< fendrin> But for watching movies the 16:9 is the better one. 
20130419 10:15:47< fendrin> For coding I like the extra space in the vertical.
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20130419 10:16:42< vultraz> Most screens above 20" probably have 1080p res
20130419 10:17:32< LordBob_> Fendrin: since we're mentionning resolutions, even on such a simple subject the 3 of us already have different screens. How does the game handle resolutions that are not implemened in its theme WML ?
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20130419 10:18:13< vultraz> (My wesnoth window is usually some weird res since I ususally play in maximized window mode
20130419 10:18:27< vultraz> because I multitask a lot
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20130419 10:18:58< LordBob_> (same here, but while it didn't bother me so far, I need to take interest now that we're trying to create this new UI)
20130419 10:19:08< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, image locations get translated, the image size stays the same.
20130419 10:19:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Except for the [panel] ones, their images will get scaled to cover all the screen.
20130419 10:19:42< fendrin> LordBob_: That is where I need to add the tiling feature.
20130419 10:19:58< LordBob_> Hence the stretching. I get it
20130419 10:21:15< fendrin> yepp
20130419 10:21:43< LordBob_> Fendrin: well, that was an enlightening chat. I'll go and finish the screen layout, for now.
20130419 10:22:03< fendrin> LordBob_: Glad I could bring some light in our dark world :-)
20130419 10:22:43< LordBob_> Fendrin : Heh, it's not so dark. There's even sunshine out here
20130419 10:22:51< fendrin> LordBob_: Note that the translation of the position depends on the ancors.
20130419 10:23:09< LordBob_> Duly noted. 
20130419 10:23:43< LordBob_> I'll likely spend some time squitting at this default.cg when slicing the backgrounds ^^
20130419 10:24:23< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, do so. You will have some funny results unless you got some experience, just don't give up that early.
20130419 10:24:34< fendrin> LordBob_: And you can always ask me how to do it.
20130419 10:25:38 * vultraz got some funny results playing around themes the other week
20130419 10:25:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Also note that a wrong coding might work perfectly at the 1024x768 resolution but get horrible corrupted at other resolutions. 
20130419 10:26:04< LordBob_> To begin with, the basics are where I'll need help the most. Do I just tinker with the cfg, drop new images in the appripriate folder and launch the game to test it, or is there more to do ?
20130419 10:26:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Still this shouldn't bother you, for screenshots and development it is fine and can be corrected later on.
20130419 10:26:29< LordBob_> *appropriate
20130419 10:26:46< fendrin> LordBob_: No, either you replace the images or you just change the image= attribute of an element.
20130419 10:27:01< fendrin> if you prefer to add a different named image
20130419 10:27:25< fendrin> LordBob_: There is nothing more to be done.
20130419 10:27:49< LordBob_> Ok. No compiling, no burning candles or voodoo rituals. Got it.
20130419 10:28:00< fendrin> yepp
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20130419 10:28:23< fendrin> The theme wml and the gui1 behind it isn't as bad as its reputy beyond the community.
20130419 10:29:19< LordBob_> What I'll do for now is finish the 1024*768 backgrounds, try to slice them properly and them send them to you. 
20130419 10:29:30< fendrin> cool
20130419 10:29:43< fendrin> LordBob_: Wait, please wait for another little chat.
20130419 10:29:47< LordBob_> Once this much is done, I'll start anew with a high res screen
20130419 10:29:59< vultraz> I wonder when  GUI2 will be ready to handle themes
20130419 10:30:01< LordBob_> I'm all ears
20130419 10:30:12< fendrin> vultraz: Nope, no theme support for GUI2 yet.
20130419 10:30:19< fendrin> I wanted to talk about sizes.
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20130419 10:30:43< vultraz> fendrin: I know, I'm wondering when it will
20130419 10:30:57< LordBob_> Ah, yes sizes. . Maybe the third attempt will succeed
20130419 10:31:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Note that the current editor sidebar is large enough to feature two unit/terrain/72p images in a row.
20130419 10:31:47< fendrin> LordBob_: I would like to have the game sidebar being large enough to feature two 72p images in a row as well.
20130419 10:32:03< fendrin> LordBob_: This allows the editor palette to be also used in the game without much fuss.
20130419 10:32:27< fendrin> LordBob_: Also, Wesnoth is mostly about combat interaction between two units.
20130419 10:32:53< fendrin> Thus, I like to display both units involved in the sidebar.
20130419 10:33:10< fendrin> Meaning your currently selected unit is visibly and a possible attack target as well.
20130419 10:33:27< fendrin> Currently you need to switch between them constantly to compare each value.
20130419 10:33:42< LordBob_> So, you're saying the target width of the future game UI should at least be the same as that of the editor
20130419 10:33:43< fendrin> Having them both side by side is a relief.
20130419 10:33:53< LordBob_> *game UI right paneml
20130419 10:33:57< fendrin> Yes, that is my opinion.
20130419 10:33:59< LordBob_> **paneL
20130419 10:34:19< fendrin> The old sidebar was designed with low resolutions and non wide screeens.
20130419 10:34:22< fendrin> in mind
20130419 10:34:38< LordBob_> Though, doesn't the combat preview windo do just that ?
20130419 10:34:47< fendrin> Yes, it does.
20130419 10:35:01< LordBob_> So, why do it in the sidebar ?
20130419 10:35:26< LordBob_> *and windoW. God, such writing, how do I do it
20130419 10:35:48< fendrin> The combat preview is modal.
20130419 10:36:03< fendrin> Once opened you can neither change the selected nor the target unit.
20130419 10:36:45< fendrin> Thus you need to dismiss the dialog, choice a new combination, open it again...
20130419 10:37:15< LordBob_> Well...You always need to select something anyway
20130419 10:37:37< fendrin> No.
20130419 10:37:41< fendrin> Well, yes.
20130419 10:37:47< fendrin> You need to choice your attacker.
20130419 10:38:00< fendrin> But for the attecked unit it is enough to hover above it.
20130419 10:38:10< fendrin> s/attecked/attacked
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20130419 10:38:46< LordBob_> If I understand, you would like to relocate the content of the combat preview dialog so that it appears in the sidebar when the mouse hovers a possible target ?
20130419 10:39:21< LordBob_> (or at least its key elements)
20130419 10:39:27< fendrin> LordBob_: I have already coded a new theme called "widescreen" that features it.
20130419 10:39:43< fendrin> LordBob_: But widescreen uses a second sidebar on the left.
20130419 10:40:01< fendrin> LordBob_: Just try it out. Go to the preferences and choice the widescreen theme.
20130419 10:40:25< LordBob_> Can i do it with 1.11.0 ?
20130419 10:40:36< LordBob_> (which is the version currently istalled on my computer)
20130419 10:40:58< fendrin> yes
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20130419 10:46:05< LordBob_> Fendrin: tried it. functionnaly, having to look at both sides of the screen is worse than the attck dialog, though
20130419 10:46:17< LordBob_> *attack
20130419 10:46:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, that is why I like to have it in a wider sidebar.
20130419 10:47:39< LordBob_> It might be a great feature to add to a high res display, indeed.
20130419 10:47:51< vultraz> yeah, the widescreen theme is kinda annoying
20130419 10:48:42< fendrin> LordBob_: Most lowres screens are wide screens. Handhelds (pandora, iphone, androids) even those with low resolutions, all are wide screens.
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20130419 10:48:45< LordBob_> As for the default 1024*768, I think the side bar's already crowded. sprites may fit in a 72pix columns, but I doubt the unit description will
20130419 10:49:06< LordBob_> even with icons
20130419 10:49:37< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus a bigger sidebar should not be much of a problem for lowres as well.
20130419 10:50:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: how wide? 200 pixels ? More ?
20130419 10:50:47< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I think the size of the current editor one is fine.
20130419 10:51:23< fendrin> LordBob_: It is 174.
20130419 10:51:40< fendrin> 72 x 2 + fancy borders.
20130419 10:53:18< LordBob_> Vultraz: exactly. Once you strip the bar of its bling, the usable width is not even 160 pixels. It might be difficult to fit in there two columns with units that have a long name, or many special attributes
20130419 10:54:30< LordBob_> Fendrin: anyway, I'll keep this in mind when designing the game UI. I already have a couple ideas as to how this could be done
20130419 10:54:58< fendrin> LordBob_: An icon based unit display will fit on less space.
20130419 10:55:16< vultraz> I'm not sure I'm a fan of replacing everything with icons
20130419 10:56:04< lipkab> Me neither.
20130419 10:57:08< fendrin> Well, that is pretty vague.
20130419 10:57:20< fendrin> Which values don't you like to be represented by icons?
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20130419 10:59:54< lipkabb> fendrin: Traits and abilities, for example.
20130419 11:00:33< fendrin> Uh, I thought exactly those would be fine with icons.
20130419 11:00:37< LordBob_> Fendrin: I fear even with icons we won't be able to go below 250 pixels for the overal panel width. In high res that's a piece of cake, but in 1024 is nearly a quarter of the screen :/
20130419 11:00:58< vultraz> LordBob_: why 250?
20130419 11:01:17< vultraz> fendrin: and what if the user wanted to add a custom ability of which he does not have a icon, a thing already done in many umcs
20130419 11:01:24< LordBob_> No matter what we do with icons, unit names may take longer spaces, and so do weapons descriptions
20130419 11:01:41< lipkabb> fendrin: That would require UMC authors to create a new icon for every new trait or ability they make.
20130419 11:01:43< LordBob_> hence, a little less than twice the current panel if we wish to fit two units
20130419 11:01:43< fendrin> lipkabb: You always have tooltips for each icon to make sure that you can read the thing if the icon is unclear.
20130419 11:03:03< lipkabb> I'd still be more happy to just look at the side bar and read the names.
20130419 11:03:39< lipkabb> What's the problem with the current layout, by the way?
20130419 11:03:54< lipkabb> I think the game screen is pretty nice and usable.
20130419 11:04:29< LordBob_> Fendrin: anyway, let's not be too hasty. Right now, the most pressing matter should be to wrap up the editor. We'll have plenty of time afterwards to refine game UI concepts :)
20130419 11:04:57< fendrin> LordBob_: Indeed. I just wanted to make sure that we can reuse your work for the game as well :-)
20130419 11:05:35-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Git migration to GitHub in progress, please *stop* committing to SF | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 173 bugs, 333 feature requests, 25 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130419 11:07:19< LordBob_> lipkabb: part of the problem, I think, is that text-based information are unpredictable when it comes to layout UI elements. Therefore, it limits possibilities in terms of new functionalities 
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20130419 11:07:35< LordBob_> fendrin: that won't be a problem, no need to worry
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20130419 11:08:29< fendrin> lipkabb: I see several problems: 1) I need to use the time consuming battle preview pane to compare units. 2) On low resolutions a unit with more than 3 weapons can't be displayed properly. 3) What LordBob_ just sayed. Especially true when it comes to translations. 4) On high resolutions much space is wasted by a mostly empty sidebar.
20130419 11:11:16< fendrin> lipkabb: What I really like to do is replacing the current terrain info text display with an icon based one.
20130419 11:12:07< fendrin> lipkabb: The terrain info is even broken on 1024x768.
20130419 11:13:30< lipkabb> fendrin: I don't think that 1. is a widespread issue, I for one don't really use the attack dialog to *compare* units.
20130419 11:14:11< lipkabb> As for the resolution stuff, many of the future low-res Wesnoth users will be likely to use a touch device.
20130419 11:14:14< fendrin> lipkabb: You can do all the maths in your mind? Respect!
20130419 11:14:58< lipkabb> The icon + tooltip solution might not be attractive to them.
20130419 11:15:39< lipkabb> fendrin: How would the icon-based terrain display look like...?
20130419 11:16:08< lipkabb> The only thing you could replace with an icon is the terrain name, isn't it?
20130419 11:16:41< fendrin> lipkabb: The terrain name is fine some kind of toolkit or terrain info dialog.
20130419 11:16:54< fendrin> s/fine some/fine as some
20130419 11:17:03< fendrin> s/toolkit/tooltip
20130419 11:17:35< zookeeper> err
20130419 11:17:45< zookeeper> how are you gonna get your mouse over the terrain info display?
20130419 11:17:56< zookeeper> ...in a way which doesn't make the display disappear?
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20130419 11:19:23< fendrin> I change the c++ code behind the display.
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20130419 11:19:46< zookeeper> we are talking about the normal in-game terrain info display at the right of the top bar, right?
20130419 11:19:52< fendrin> yes
20130419 11:20:18< zookeeper> so, how is the player supposed to both hover over a hex and the display at the same time in order to invoke the tooltip?
20130419 11:21:45< zookeeper> or is the intent that there will be some neutral icons there which are shown when the player is not hovering on any hex, allowing the player to check the tooltips even when there's no hex being pointed to?
20130419 11:21:46< fendrin> zookeeper: One moment, please. Phone.
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20130419 11:25:44< fendrin> zookeeper: The player can either press the right mouse button on a hex field and choose a terrain info context menu entry.
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20130419 11:26:15< fendrin> This will either bring up a new terrain info dialog or use the help system.
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20130419 11:27:03< fendrin> Or you click on  a hex field which will select it. (in fact that is already true for ages it is just that the display does not highlight a hex field with no unit on it, which can be changed)
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20130419 11:28:38< zookeeper> i damn well can't select en empty hex by clicking on it
20130419 11:28:48< fendrin> you can
20130419 11:28:59< fendrin> the engine is selecting that field
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20130419 11:29:12< fendrin> just read the c++ code.
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20130419 11:29:35< zookeeper> ok, so what happens to the terrain info display when i select a hex, and then hover over other hexes?
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20130419 11:30:31< fendrin> zookeeper: It can either stay fixed at the selected hex field or show the one currently under the mouse.
20130419 11:30:49< zookeeper> okay
20130419 11:30:57< fendrin> What is more important, if you move the mouse to the top bar, or sidebar, meaning you leave the game map.
20130419 11:31:19< fendrin> The terrain info won't disappear as it does currently, but show the selected one.
20130419 11:31:27< zookeeper> what's the motivation to turn the display into icons, though?
20130419 11:31:59< fendrin> zookeeper: Have a look at 1024x768. For most terrains the display is already broken.
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20130419 11:32:43< zookeeper> yeah, fair enough
20130419 11:33:29< fendrin> zookeeper: To fix this, one would need to reduce the size of the other elements very much since you need to argue about translations as well.
20130419 11:33:49< fendrin> zookeeper: A icon based display would have a predictable size.
20130419 11:34:01< zookeeper> so you'd turn only the terrain name and aliasing info into icons, but not the defense/movement info?
20130419 11:34:26< fendrin> zookeeper: We do not have a terrain that is based on more than 3 base terrains currently in mainline.
20130419 11:35:03< zookeeper> see, what i've always wanted is some way to display _how_ the aliasing works for a given terrain. with icons that'd maybe be easier to do than with text.
20130419 11:35:05< fendrin> zookeeper: Thus every mainline terrain can be displayed with 3 icons.
20130419 11:35:47< fendrin> zookeeper: I think defense/movement is fine. Not very big and it has a predictable size already.
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20130419 11:36:13< zookeeper> okay
20130419 11:36:21< zookeeper> no objection from me
20130419 11:36:53< fendrin> zookeeper: At least the terrain info box/dialog/help/whatever should feature a full description of how a terrain works movement/defense/vision wise.
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20130419 11:37:13< fendrin> zookeeper: And if we find a cleaver way I would like to display that in the bar as well.
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20130419 11:41:18< fendrin> zookeeper: Between the icons for the base terrains there would be some icons which display if the lower / higher value is counted.
20130419 11:42:05< zookeeper> or some kind of coloured borders or something
20130419 11:42:18< fendrin> good idea 
20130419 11:42:38< fendrin> There are a few possibilities, iirc.
20130419 11:42:51< fendrin> The terrain may feature min of both bases for both values.
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20130419 11:43:11< vultraz> One thing I have against fancifying (is that a word?) the UI with buttons and fancy stuff is that we'll start to look like world of warcraft or something
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20130419 11:43:29< vultraz> buttons and fancy, cluttered interfaces everywhere
20130419 11:43:31< fendrin> vultraz: Ah yes, I like the world of warcraft gui.
20130419 11:43:44< vultraz> icons that make you look like DUDE what IS this
20130419 11:44:01< fendrin> vultraz: Okay, let's see.
20130419 11:44:48< fendrin> vultraz: We already have icons for weapons. Using them instead of the weapons name seems like a good idea to me. The images are all of high quality and you get easily if it is a bow or a sword or axe.
20130419 11:45:08< vultraz> yes, but that means more space used
20130419 11:45:20< vultraz> even 4 weapons would reach the buttom of my screen
20130419 11:45:22< fendrin> But it is predictable space.
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20130419 11:46:03< vultraz> there are addons like SXRPG where you can get up to 7 weapons
20130419 11:46:17< fendrin> vultraz: Currently a weapon featuring at least one special ability is consuming the same space as the iconized version does.
20130419 11:46:17< vultraz> unless you propose adding a scroll bar to the weapons list?
20130419 11:46:53< zookeeper> don't turn unit info into icons just because
20130419 11:47:55< vultraz> I think the only problem with the current interface is the way unit traits and abilities can run off the screen
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20130419 11:48:27< fendrin> vultraz: I like to use the editor palette for the weapons list. This means that you have no scroll buttons visible for all mainline content, since mainline does not feature units with more than 3 weapons. But if you have an addon with 7 or more weapons a unit, it can be displayed at all resolutions.
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20130419 11:49:50< zookeeper> sounds particularly harebrained.
20130419 11:49:51< vultraz> so you're going to make the palette a widget?
20130419 11:50:09< fendrin> vultraz: It is already a widget.
20130419 11:50:15< vultraz> really?
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20130419 11:50:31< fendrin> sure
20130419 11:50:31< vultraz> so I could make a custom theme with said palette?
20130419 11:50:41< fendrin> vultraz: Yes
20130419 11:51:08< vultraz> huh
20130419 11:51:11< vultraz> and how would I fill it
20130419 11:51:12< zookeeper> you can't display damage and range and damage type in an icon. you still need text for those, as a tooltip are not good enough for information that you need to constantly view.
20130419 11:51:50< fendrin> The damage type is fine as an icon
20130419 11:52:04< fendrin> the amount of damage/strikes will be a value.
20130419 11:52:14< fendrin> range is fine as icon as well
20130419 11:52:18< LordBob_> fendrin: regardless of the rest, I'm not sure it would be a good thing to use the individual weapon icons in the unit info. If we're relying on icons to carry meaning, then their number should be few and they ough to prioritize clarity over bling.
20130419 11:52:45 * zookeeper wonders what "will be a value" means
20130419 11:52:53< fendrin> a digit
20130419 11:52:56< vultraz> if we start getting icons everywhere
20130419 11:53:01< LordBob_> I would us icons for damage type, range, and weapons special effects. the rest, text.
20130419 11:53:04< vultraz> we'll confuse new players
20130419 11:53:20< zookeeper> so the weapon info for a given attack would look like this: "[ICON] 6-2" ?
20130419 11:53:30< vultraz> the advantage of the text is that you can see immediately what the stats are
20130419 11:53:41< vultraz> plus, you can easily add new weapons and stuff without making new icons
20130419 11:53:44< zookeeper> text is awesome. icons are infinitely less accessible.
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20130419 11:54:17< LordBob_> zookeeper: I would rather have [range icon] lance 6-2 [damage type icon]
20130419 11:55:02< fendrin> vultraz: Do you think an image showing a bow is in any way more confusing than the word "bow"?
20130419 11:55:16< zookeeper> icons are great for things where the user needs to identify a given element immediately at a glance. when you look at the unit info, you don't need to identify whether the weapon is a sword or a halberd or an axe or a spear, you need to identify its stats.
20130419 11:55:17< LordBob_> Anyway, there are/have been millions of World of Warcraft suscribers out there to prove that too many icons doesn't discourage players
20130419 11:55:18< vultraz> what if you have an attack that's not immediately obvious?
20130419 11:55:43< fendrin> vultraz: Example?
20130419 11:55:47< zookeeper> so yes, small icons for range and damage type would be a whole lot more useful than showing the attack icon there
20130419 11:56:13< fendrin> zookeeper: Yeah
20130419 11:56:17< vultraz> well, how about the Noctum attack in AtS
20130419 11:56:28< vultraz> it's icon is a beam or purple light
20130419 11:56:36< vultraz> people would look at that and be like wha?
20130419 11:56:53< LordBob_> Vultraz: see zookeeper's line above
20130419 11:57:16< zookeeper> additionally, our attack icons would look like some sort of triggerable abilities or whatever
20130419 11:57:57< fendrin> vultraz: I would think that unit features a magical purple beam with the stats I can see beside it. If I would like to know the confusing "Noctum" name I can consult the tooltip.
20130419 11:58:34< vultraz> also, zookeeper's point
20130419 12:00:07< zookeeper> LordBob_, screen space -wise, the biggest problem with attacks are weapon specials, since a single attack might have several
20130419 12:00:17< vultraz> I think making users need more art for umc is bad
20130419 12:00:25< zookeeper> i don't think those should be iconified because there's just so many of them you'd need to remember
20130419 12:01:07< vultraz> any element that the user can modify should be easily modifiable
20130419 12:01:33< zookeeper> i think we need to display at least two specials comfortably in the UI, but for >2 it's ok to rely on a tooltip like now
20130419 12:02:17< fendrin> zookeeper: My prototype features room for 3 weapon special icons.
20130419 12:02:50< vultraz> weapon special icons?
20130419 12:02:55< fendrin> yes
20130419 12:03:04< vultraz> what about all the umc that have custom weapon specials
20130419 12:03:45< vultraz> ok if you want to give all mainline specials an icon, but users do make new ones
20130419 12:04:02< vultraz> not many can do art
20130419 12:04:18< vultraz> you'd force them to reuse stuff, or produce ugly stuff
20130419 12:04:36< vultraz> that's basically the whole problem with the icon stuff, as far as I can see
20130419 12:04:40< fendrin> or we provide a fallback to a text only display.
20130419 12:05:07< vultraz> and have users asking why some are in text and some not?
20130419 12:05:09< zookeeper> then we don't need the icons in the first place
20130419 12:05:53< fendrin> Sure, we do not need unit images as well, it would be enough to write "Elvish Archer" on a hex field.
20130419 12:06:22< vultraz> That's different
20130419 12:06:31< vultraz> everyone knows the units need images
20130419 12:06:40< LordBob_> I'mm all for defaulting to text, but wherever can better carry the message with images, I'm all for doing it
20130419 12:06:48< vultraz> it's physically impossible to have a unit with at lease a baseframe
20130419 12:06:55< vultraz> so, that baseframe can be displayed
20130419 12:07:05< fendrin> Well, ranges and damage types can be custom as well.
20130419 12:07:29< fendrin> Thus if we say that everything that is wml configurable can't be displayed with icons we can't use any.
20130419 12:07:54< vultraz> now, if you're planning to have the UI display some stats on buttons like you do in the palette, good
20130419 12:08:09< vultraz> but if you're saying the user has to make their own icons, bad bad bad
20130419 12:08:22< fendrin> This is also true for the terrain info icons I proposed earlier, a UMC can add new base terrain.
20130419 12:09:14< zookeeper> LordBob_, well, i don't think icons really carry the message any more effectively in this case... it's not like you recognize an icon faster than you recognize a word, after all. to save space when needed, fine... but only if there's no good text-only solution to it, i'd say.
20130419 12:09:46< LordBob_> How about something like that
20130419 12:09:48< LordBob_> http://imagebin.org/254583
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20130419 12:10:30< fendrin> LordBob_: I already had items with embedded values.
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20130419 12:11:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Meaning the damage value is embedded in the damage type, showing that the weapon is doing x damage of type y.
20130419 12:11:38< LordBob_> fendrin: I saw them, but the embedded numbers are microscopic, and I fear the icons are not simple enough
20130419 12:11:44< vultraz> LordBob_: well, the first thing I wonder is, what does the red arrow and spear mean?
20130419 12:11:51< vultraz> ranged and melee?
20130419 12:12:18< zookeeper> LordBob_, it looks kinda nice, but i'd be inclined to think that the icons steal too much of the focus. also, it's a bit confusing how when you look at a single attack, you see 1) crossed swords, 2) the text "lance" (or whatever) and 3) an axe/spear/whatever. :x
20130419 12:12:23< vultraz> and I suppose the crossed swords would be replaced by an attack icon?
20130419 12:12:31< vultraz> zookeeper: agreed
20130419 12:12:36< LordBob_> Vultraz: admitytedly, it would take some getting used to. Here, the blue icon is for range, the grey for damage type, and the red for specials
20130419 12:15:25< LordBob_> Or even simpler: http://imagebin.org/254584
20130419 12:15:58< vultraz> even worse
20130419 12:16:04< vultraz> now we don't know names
20130419 12:16:11< LordBob_> After all, if this is just a unit overview, what do we care if its melee attack is a sword, an axe or even a fart ,
20130419 12:16:29< LordBob_> We really don't have a need for them
20130419 12:17:43< LordBob_> (other than to fuel the imagination of the player, which is done well enough by the full unit description or the combat preniew panel, where weapons icons and names are fully displayed
20130419 12:18:05< LordBob_> *preview
20130419 12:18:49< vultraz> the attack dialog?
20130419 12:18:54< vultraz> that dialog is so messy...
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20130419 12:32:44< fendrin> vultraz: Don't waste time to experiment with [palette] in the game now. The code that supports the palette in the game, (not the editor) is not commited yet.
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20130419 12:32:59< vultraz> ah
20130419 12:33:00< vultraz> ok
20130419 12:33:12< fendrin> vultraz: Meaning you can use the [palette] already but the game won't be able to fill it.
20130419 12:34:14< fendrin> vultraz: I would like to have a wml interface to display whatever the umc designer wants. Cargo bay/inventory list/spells/...
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20130419 12:35:11< vultraz> problem is, you can't manipulate them besides clicking it
20130419 12:35:20< vultraz> I suppose you could have buttons somewhere..
20130419 12:35:30< vultraz> but I like my gui2 inventory better :P
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20130419 12:39:30< vultraz> ( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95558676/current_inventory.png , totally unrelated, just showing it off :P )
20130419 12:41:57< zookeeper> sweet
20130419 12:44:01< vultraz> :)
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20130419 14:15:07< thunderstruck> fendrin, hi. Do you think it would be sensible to make it possible to get rid of "allow_player=no" lines in MP scenarios for AI sides?
20130419 14:15:42< fendrin> Hmmm, why do you ask?
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20130419 14:16:20< thunderstruck> thunderstruck, 'cause I was looking at MP campaigns for my proposal and that line seems redundant to me.
20130419 14:16:36< thunderstruck> fendrin, I can't find any example where someone allows players for AI side.
20130419 14:17:09< thunderstruck> oops, I was wrote message to myself :)
20130419 14:17:13< thunderstruck> I wrote*
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20130419 14:29:16< thunderstruck> fendrin, also wiki (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MultiplayerCampaigns#Scenarios next-to-last bullet point) says that [story] tag displays only for the first player.
20130419 14:29:31< thunderstruck> fendrin, is it still true? I'm not able to reproduce that issue.
20130419 14:30:11< thunderstruck> s/issue/behaviour
20130419 14:30:17< fendrin> No, not think this is no longer true.
20130419 14:30:26< fendrin> hmm
20130419 14:30:35< fendrin> No, I don't think this is true anymore.
20130419 14:30:47< thunderstruck> fendrin, I'll edit the page, then.
20130419 14:31:01< fendrin> yes, please do so
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20130419 14:31:45< fendrin> thunderstruck: What do we gain if we remove the allow_player thing from ai sites?
20130419 14:32:04< thunderstruck> fendrin, less redundancy.
20130419 14:32:29< fendrin> But an extra code path
20130419 14:32:45< fendrin> Currently all sides features the attribute/option.
20130419 14:33:06< fendrin> If you want it to be reduced to only one you introduce different code paths.
20130419 14:33:34< thunderstruck> fendrin, I see. So it is not really worth for such a small gain.
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20130419 14:42:27< fendrin> thunderstruck: Well, we can talk about making allow_player=no the default for an ai side.
20130419 14:42:52< fendrin> thunderstruck: And yes for human controlled ones.
20130419 14:43:27< fendrin> thunderstruck: I guess that really would make sense. I think you should at least mention it in your proposal. Or directly offer a patch.
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20130419 14:47:46< thunderstruck> fendrin, I didn't look at the code related to "allow_player" yet, so I wasn't aware of different code paths. But anyway, to use default values for it makes sense.
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20130419 15:04:26< fendrin> thunderstruck: Changing the default is very very simple in most cases.
20130419 15:04:46< fendrin> thunderstruck: But one needs to think about WML incompatibilities.
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20130419 15:37:47< flix> Crab_, (mattsc): Hello! I've now added a string aspect for advancements. It is a sting of the format "Swordsman, Knight". And it's working fine. I also tested it with the LUA engine. Can I do more? Or is it too complicated? You said: "but, you can make an aspect a type of which would be 'function which takes a unit and returns a string'" what did you mean by that?
20130419 15:38:59< Crab_> flix: take a look at the avoid aspect
20130419 15:39:30< Crab_> flix: it's value is a C++ object
20130419 15:39:40< flix> Crab_: Or better: I know what you meant but not how to achieve it. Okay, I'll take a look
20130419 15:41:47< Crab_> flix: create a new C++ object type that would have a member function like 'string magic_function(const unit_map::iterator& i)'
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20130419 15:54:29< Crab_> flix: and by copying what avoid aspect has, you'll be able to make two implementations, one in C++ and another to be backed by lua code.
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20130419 15:59:36< flix> Crab_:okay! How would "string magic_function(const unit_map::iterator& i)" in LUA would look like? Especially how would the parameter i be known to lua? Does 'avoid' have a parameter like this too?  (Sry, I don't know where to look to discover it myself) 
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20130419 16:05:51< Crab_> flix: files of interest are src/ai/composite/aspect.hpp and http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/ai/lua/lua_object.hpp
20130419 16:06:06< Crab_> flix: the idea is 'lua aspect does not need to know the unit at creation time'. 
20130419 16:06:39< Crab_> flix: the unit should be only passed to C++ wrapper returned by lua_object
20130419 16:08:26< Crab_> flix: you'll need to implement a new to_type() that would create that C++ wrapper 
20130419 16:10:05< Crab_> flix: then, it'll look like this: C++ code would get an aspect, and get a shared pointer to C++ object. it'll call the magic_function(unit_iterator) of that object.
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20130419 16:11:14< Crab_> inside that object, it would result in doing all the necessary dirty work to transform the unit iterator to a lua parameter, put it on a lua stack, and call the lua function (that was embedded in this object on construction), and then get the result out of lua stack, and return it to C++ code
20130419 16:12:32< flix> okay! And would the magic_function be the 'value' inside a aspect with lua-engine?
20130419 16:13:21< flix> Crab_: or the return type
20130419 16:13:58< Crab_> flix: value of an aspect would be 'shared pointer to C++ object which has a public member magic_function()'
20130419 16:14:34< Crab_> flix: one implementation would get that object via calling to_type() method on a lua_object (as it does with avoid or with vector of targets)
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20130419 16:15:50< flix> Crab_: Okay thank you so far, I have to leave now. I will try to implement it tonight!
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20130419 16:17:32< hawthorn_> oh..so many gsoc aspirants :)
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20130419 16:19:43< vbond> Hi everybody.
20130419 16:20:04< vbond> i'm too a gsoc aspirant) 
20130419 16:23:01< vbond> I downloaded game 
20130419 16:23:10< vbond> and I have a question
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20130419 16:23:46< vbond> what parts of boost I can use ?
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20130419 16:25:19< vbond> I haven't viewed source code yet
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20130419 16:35:47< Crab_> vbond: hello.
20130419 16:36:06< vbond> hi Grab_
20130419 16:36:07< fendrin> vbond: I guess you can use all boost stuff. We do not add more dependencies happily but in case of another boost part it doesn't matter much.
20130419 16:36:17< fendrin> Crab_: Or does it?^
20130419 16:36:42< fendrin> Boost comes in a packages for all operating systems...
20130419 16:36:56< vbond> I installed the last version
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20130419 16:37:12< Crab_> vbond: iostreams (with gzip, bzip2), smart_ptr,  system, thread,asio, program_options, regex
20130419 16:37:32< fendrin> Crab_: I though some net thing as well.
20130419 16:37:39< Crab_> fendrin: asio
20130419 16:37:52< fendrin> I see.
20130419 16:37:54< Crab_> vbond: it's not that much hassle to add other libs, but current config checks only for a subset of them
20130419 16:39:33< vbond> I'm interested in AI, but i don't know lua (
20130419 16:40:31< vbond> I think it is not hard, isn't it
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20130419 16:46:52< dragos_> Crab_: Hello! I've sent you a mail asking what should I do next. 
20130419 16:47:04< Crab_> dragos_: hello
20130419 16:47:33< Crab_> vbond: lua is, by itself, pretty easy to learn. interaction between C++ and lua can be tricky. luckily, there're plenty of examples in the code to copy from.
20130419 16:52:12< Crab_> dragos_: at this point, I'm still thinking what should be the next possible steps. You've got all the pieces together, so I'd suggest experimenting for a while and finding good questions to ask.
20130419 16:52:52< Crab_> dragos_: I think that the next step probably should involve creating a wiki page with the plan of the main things what we'd want to do over the summer.
20130419 16:53:07< dragos_> Crab_: Ok, I'll also want to start the application
20130419 16:53:19< dragos_> Crab_: yes :) that's my plan
20130419 16:53:24< Crab_> yes, application to google is a mandatory step :)
20130419 16:53:42< dragos_> Crab_: Also because I want to apply to two project should I create 2 wiki applications?
20130419 16:53:55< Crab_> dragos_: feel free to share the questionnaire.
20130419 16:54:01< Crab_> dragos_: but it's better to separate the actual applications.
20130419 16:54:13< Crab_> and two applications to google, as well (you can link from it to the wiki)
20130419 16:55:56< dragos_> Crab_: Ok, I'll start working at that today and continue browsing the code. Will probably work a little to make the retreat function a little better. It was really fun working on these mini-projects. 
20130419 16:57:17< dragos_> Crab_: I also learn a lot faster from practical work so these projects really helped me understand 
20130419 16:57:48< Crab_> dragos_: ok. you're welcome to ask questions. Please let me know when you'll want me to take a look at the wiki pages.
20130419 16:58:59< dragos_> Crab_: Ok, if I have questions about the aplication or related to wesnoth I'll ask. Thanks a lot
20130419 17:01:16< Crab_> great, thanks
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20130419 17:09:50< BeachedWhale07> Is anyone able to tell me the location where the chat is handled? (not the chat log)
20130419 17:10:00< BeachedWhale07> I mean where each line is parsed.
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20130419 17:11:44< seanl> Crab_: I was told to talk to you about working on the ai. I am new to open source and am wondering if i can ask you a few questions.
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20130419 17:12:06< Crab_> seanl: yes, you're welcome
20130419 17:12:30< Crab_> BeachedWhale07: the chat server is one of http://freenode.net/ servers.
20130419 17:13:51< seanl> I have never contributed to any open source before and am totally new. whats the best way for me to go about starting?
20130419 17:16:18< Crab_> seanl: well, you're already started by joining this channel :) a good thing to do would be to compile Wesnoth from source (and play it a little, if you haven't before)
20130419 17:17:07< Crab_> seanl: ask here if you'll need any help with downloading source code and compiling. once you compiled, you can try doing any small tasks (we can suggest some) to change the source, fix bugs, etc.
20130419 17:17:49< seanl> Crab_ Yeah i have done that. Is there any small tasks ai related?
20130419 17:18:13< Crab_> seanl: we can find some small AI-related tasks for you, it mostly depends on what you want to do :)
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20130419 17:24:14< seanl> Crab_: I am willing to start anywhere is there anything that you could assign to me that could get me started.
20130419 17:25:58< seanl> Crab_: I've read through the logs of the past week and look over the forums. I have an idea of the problems with the ai, I'm just not sure where to begin.
20130419 17:26:08< seanl> looked*
20130419 17:27:30< Crab_> seanl: the first step is to compile the game. then, the second step is learning how to modify the AI. I would like you to compile wesnoth first, then get back to me (you can also contact me via forum PM to Crab or mail to terraninfo@terraninfo.net )
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20130419 17:28:32< mattsc> seanl: just to clarify that, do you want to apply for a GSoC project or contribute to Wesnoth in general?  (I apologize if you already said it, I've "talked" to too many people in the last few days and can't remember)
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20130419 17:29:37< seanl> mattsc: Both
20130419 17:30:50< mattsc> seanl: okay great.  Just asking because what you need to do short-term is a little different for the two things.
20130419 17:31:48< seanl> Crab_: Ok, thank you
20130419 17:32:05< Crab_> seanl: thanks. and good luck, then :)
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20130419 17:32:56< razvan_florea> Hello Crab_!
20130419 17:32:58< mattsc> Hi, neph 
20130419 17:33:03< mattsc> How are things?
20130419 17:33:07< Crab_> hello
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20130419 17:33:31< mattsc> neph: Any chance you'll get to work on the extCAs soon?  ;)
20130419 17:33:51< razvan_florea> You told me yesterday that I should do my functionality a part of the ai
20130419 17:34:22< razvan_florea> Crab_, but my functionality has to be for the human player
20130419 17:34:33< razvan_florea> There is an ai for the human player too?
20130419 17:35:31< Crab_> razvan_florea: yes, there's an AI for every player, even those played by humans
20130419 17:35:46< Crab_> razvan_florea: by using :droid 2 command, you can switch side 2 between human and ai control
20130419 17:35:59< Crab_> or, for side X, droid X
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20130419 17:39:37< razvan_florea> Crab_, where should I use this command?
20130419 17:39:45< Crab_> in-game console
20130419 17:39:51< Crab_> you can also use :help
20130419 17:40:02< Crab_> some commands are only for debug mode, which can be enabled (partially) from the console
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20130419 17:46:41< Crab_> razvan_florea: anything else I can help you with, now?
20130419 17:47:14< razvan_florea> One more question
20130419 17:47:30< razvan_florea> The ai that the game uses firstly is the default one
20130419 17:47:48< razvan_florea> Crab_, am i right?
20130419 17:48:31< Crab_> yes. it's the default RCA ai
20130419 17:49:06< razvan_florea> the human player what ai are using?
20130419 17:49:19< razvan_florea> because I can't find anything about this
20130419 17:49:57< Crab_> same, default RCA ai.
20130419 17:51:14< razvan_florea> Cab_, ok! Thanks!
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20130419 17:51:40< razvan_florea> Crab_*
20130419 17:52:10< Crab_> ok. note that the ai-for-a-side is lazily initialized
20130419 17:52:41< Crab_> so, in order to get lua ai working, as of now, you need a side to do at least 1 AI turn and get it back to human control (that's what the wiki page suggest)
20130419 17:52:48< Crab_> it's an unfortunate bug which needs to be fixed.
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20130419 18:11:13< Shelim> Hello
20130419 18:12:18< Crab_> Shelim: hello
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20130419 18:31:46< ecaille> hi
20130419 18:31:58< Shelim> @ecaille Hi
20130419 18:32:25-!- flix [~flix@178.77.188.18] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130419 18:32:29< ecaille> thought I would come just to say, have tried in Archlinux wesnoth-devel number  1.11.1-1 from AUR, and it crashes. Here is the debug with gdb:
20130419 18:32:39< ecaille> http://pastebin.fr/27096
20130419 18:32:44< ecaille> hi Shelim 
20130419 18:32:51-!- LordBob_ [~chatzilla@2a01:e34:ee82:47e0:21e:c2ff:fe01:261f] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20130419 18:33:10< ecaille> I am mom's ecaille really, he is not keen with English yet and he needs help for reporting bugs
20130419 18:33:22< ecaille> so now he'll play the regular version :)
20130419 18:33:35< ecaille> going now
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20130419 18:58:33< Shelim> How many slots for students are there in Wesnoth for Google Summer of Code?
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20130419 19:08:49< mattsc> Shelim: probably 2; and almost certainly not more than 3.  Unless somebody else signs on as a mentor, but that is pretty unlikely at this time.
20130419 19:09:42< Shelim> Woah, and are there already 9 people applying? :D
20130419 19:10:22< nurupo> yeah, there always was a big competition for slots in GSoC
20130419 19:10:48< nurupo> overall, about 1000 students get accepted
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20130419 19:11:57< Shelim> I see... and how it's work when someone don't get into Wesnoth slot? Can them still make into another project's slot?
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20130419 19:12:31< nurupo> Shelim: you can submit proposals up to 5 projects, and you shouldn't really submit to anything you are not familiar with, because it's most likely there will be a person who knows (s)hes stuff
20130419 19:13:47< Shelim> I see :) Are there any stats of how many students get reject?
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20130419 19:15:04< Shelim> I am new to that GSoC thing, but I've alreade worked on a few game projects (which even got published), so I am assessing my chances at getting into Wesnoth :)
20130419 19:19:13< mattsc> Shelim: your chances of getting in are mostly determined by what you demonstrate during the application period and the quality of your proposal, rather than by what you have done previously.
20130419 19:20:01< mattsc> The latter will help you with the tasks you do for Wesnoth, of course, but I don't think the mentors weigh what's in your CV a lot (I'm not a mentor, just from what I have seen)
20130419 19:20:29< skyfaller> mattsc: do you think we'll get a student to help us with AI stuff? :)
20130419 19:21:12< mattsc> skyfaller: there's only one suggested non-AI project, so I think the chances are pretty good.
20130419 19:21:33< skyfaller> ha! where's the list? what's the non-AI project?
20130419 19:21:51< Shelim> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas :)
20130419 19:22:00< mattsc> Oh, two non-AI projects ...
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20130419 19:23:46< skyfaller> wait, none of the ideas have student proposals, but there are 9 people applying? I'm confused
20130419 19:24:55< Shelim> Me too - most of student's pages contain just empty ToDo section as picked idea... ^^"
20130419 19:25:27< Shelim> I was wondering if this was expected (ie, ideas will be chose later on)
20130419 19:26:02< mattsc> There's still lots of time left.  People are still working on their proposals, bug fixes and other tasks and just haven't listed their names under the respective projects yet.
20130419 19:27:45< mattsc> Well, haven't marked their proposals so that it gets listed there, I mean ...
20130419 19:27:57< mattsc> s/it/they
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20130419 20:10:13< molgrum__> i get this when compiling with Code::Blocks in windows: wesnoth\src\lua\lbaselib.c|62|error: 'static_cast' undeclared (first use in this function)
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20130419 20:58:17< Ivanovic> esr: still alive?
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20130419 21:14:28< Zazweda> Hey, I tried to change the behaviour of the quintain for the tutorial
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20130419 21:15:01< Zazweda> so it works, but I now want to modify directly the ai of the "guardian" to familiarize with it
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20130419 21:16:35< Zazweda> but there are multiple "guardian" behaviour in the mai_guardian engine.
20130419 21:18:07< mattsc> Zazweda: are you talking about the standard Wesnoth guardian (the one you define with ai_special=guardian) or on of the Micro AI guardians?
20130419 21:18:24< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs#Guardian_Micro_AI_.28ai_type.3Dguardian_unit.29
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20130419 21:19:53< Zazweda> oh got it thanks
20130419 21:20:22< mattsc> The default guardian is defined in the C++ code, the Micro AIs are written in Lua AI in the file you mention.
20130419 21:21:02< Zazweda> Ok so if I want to modify the guardian default I have to modify the C++ code and recompile it right ?
20130419 21:21:14< mattsc> correct
20130419 21:21:38< Zazweda> k thanks
20130419 21:22:10< mattsc> you're welcome
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20130419 22:10:31< Zazweda> mattsc: If I want to create a new Guardian behaviour like the protection of a unit, I have more to modify than just this mai_guardian_engine. Where do I specify that my new behaviour would be called through guardian_type :"newai" ?
20130419 22:12:20< mattsc> Zazweda: you mean an AI written in Lua AI rather than C++ now?  (because that's what's set up in that file.
20130419 22:13:36< Zazweda> Yes, I figured that trying to create a new LUA behaviour may be a good start
20130419 22:14:08< mattsc> Zazweda: ok, just making sure that I understand what you mean.
20130419 22:14:40< Zazweda> Yep, sorry I was figuring out how to set everything up with the micro IA before
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20130419 22:15:11< mattsc> Let me point you to this, which is where we are setting up and testing the Micro AIs before they go into mainline: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos
20130419 22:17:11< mattsc> Do you want me to explain to you how to set up a Micro AI (incl. the [micro_ai] tag), or how to set up a custom AI without going through the tag?
20130419 22:17:35< mattsc> There are examples for both at that site, you just need to look in different files
20130419 22:18:29< mattsc> ... and the AI part is the same, just that MAIs go through the additional step of setting up the [micro_ai] tag for the given AI
20130419 22:18:58< Zazweda> well then let's go for the custom AI 
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20130419 22:19:28< mattsc> ok, look at scenarios/prune_cart.cfg
20130419 22:20:01< mattsc> at the [side] tag for Side 1
20130419 22:20:36< Zazweda> yep
20130419 22:20:58< mattsc> in the [ai] tag, you need to have the version= key, and an [ai] tag that sets up the lua engine, the main_loop stage, and adds a bunch of candidate actions to  it
20130419 22:21:15< mattsc> For a first test, you probably only need one CA
20130419 22:21:42< mattsc> the engine includes the actual lua functions from a file, so you can look at how that is set up.
20130419 22:21:53< mattsc> *look at that file to see ...
20130419 22:22:10< Zazweda> yep
20130419 22:22:28< mattsc> That's it pretty much...
20130419 22:22:52< Zazweda> the version = key is using a predefine key or a random one ?
20130419 22:22:58< mattsc> Now, just for contrast, have a look at micro_ais/scenarios/lurkers.cfg
20130419 22:23:30< mattsc> lines 198 etc. for side 2
20130419 22:24:07< mattsc> The macro at the end of the side definition sets up the engine and the main_loop stage
20130419 22:24:19< Zazweda> ok
20130419 22:24:28< Zazweda> Where is this macro defined ?
20130419 22:24:31< mattsc> And lines 321-333 set up the candidate actions for it
20130419 22:24:43< mattsc> The macro is defined hereL 
20130419 22:24:59< mattsc> (sorry, premature <return>)
20130419 22:25:36< mattsc> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/micro_ais/ais/micro_ais_macros.cfg#L166
20130419 22:25:59< Zazweda> hu ok
20130419 22:26:20< mattsc> And the [micro_ai] tag is set up in this file: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/micro_ais/ais/micro_ais_wml_tags.lua
20130419 22:26:24< Zazweda> so the only difference is that the micro ais are define under what kind of behaviour the represent
20130419 22:27:09< Zazweda> while the custom AI is directly inside the scenario ?
20130419 22:27:34< mattsc> The difference is that all that is needed by the scenario designer when using a Micro AI is the inclusion of one macro in the side tag and a WML tag [micro_ai] in an event
20130419 22:28:01< mattsc> You don't need to know how to set up an AI, we wrap all of that into the tag
20130419 22:28:26< mattsc> So it's a convenience thing for people who only want to use the AI, but not write it
20130419 22:28:37< Zazweda> mhm but if I understand it well, once I wrote the" engine"
20130419 22:28:53< Zazweda> I can wrap it also with MAI right ?
20130419 22:29:07< Zazweda> it's the same engine, with different way to use it?
20130419 22:29:08< mattsc> Yes.  All the functionality is in the engine.
20130419 22:29:15< mattsc> exactly
20130419 22:29:41< Zazweda> Sounds good, well I just have to understand and try now :p
20130419 22:29:50< Zazweda> thanks for the explanation
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20130419 22:29:58< mattsc> Sounds good.
20130419 22:30:38< mattsc> I wouldn't start with prune_cart, that one is rather complicated and also unfinished (which is the reason why it is not been converted to an MAI yet)
20130419 22:31:43< Zazweda> I will try to inspire from the already developed guardian engine
20130419 22:31:53< mattsc> I just used it as an example because it's essentially the last one not converted yet
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20130419 22:32:48< mattsc> Sounds good.  FYI, the add-on comes with test scenarios for all the MAIs, so you can try out easily what they are doing, and how modifying them changes things.
20130419 22:33:39< Zazweda> sounds cool
20130419 22:34:32< mattsc> Check out the Bottleneck Defense test scenario.  It's a (comparatively) simple one, but probably my favorite to watch  :P
20130419 22:35:35< mattsc> Zazweda: which GSoC project are you interested in?
20130419 22:37:19< Zazweda> The defense AI sounds pretty good, but as I said on the wiki the recruitment algorithm refactoring is pretty interesting too
20130419 22:38:01< mattsc> okay
20130419 22:39:18< fendrin> LordBob_: hi
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20130419 22:57:06< shadowm> wesbot: seen esr
20130419 22:57:07< wesbot> shadowm: Queried user last spoke 22h 51m ago.  esr is currently in this channel.
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20130419 23:03:34< LordBob_> fendrin: back
20130419 23:04:31< fendrin> LordBob_: As an artist I assume you have heard about "Golden ratio" already?
20130419 23:05:06< LordBob_> Of course
20130419 23:05:23< fendrin> I wonder if it could be applied to the UI.
20130419 23:05:35-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Git migration to GitHub in progress, please *stop* committing to SF | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 174 bugs, 333 feature requests, 25 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130419 23:06:06< LordBob_> That's an interesting question ^^
20130419 23:07:01< fendrin> It should determine the size of the sizebar in an ideal world. 
20130419 23:07:30< fendrin> s/sizebar/sidebar
20130419 23:07:42< shadowm> If I say esr three times will he appear again?
20130419 23:07:49< LordBob_> Yes, but I believe the golden ratio is roughly a thirf
20130419 23:08:16< LordBob_> *third
20130419 23:08:16< fendrin> Yeah, you don't need to hit it exactly.
20130419 23:09:03< LordBob_> well, wouldn't it be a bother to have a UI which occupies "roughly a third" of the screen ?
20130419 23:10:09< fendrin> Yes, I guess it would be too large.
20130419 23:11:18< fendrin> LordBob_: On my 1680 screen the sidebar would need to have 641,7 pixel.
20130419 23:12:34< fendrin> LordBob_: That is why I ask. Maybe this golden ratio thing does scale somehow. Meaning if the first instance is to large, can the thing be tiled again.
20130419 23:13:15< LordBob_> Of course, there can be sudivisions
20130419 23:13:38< fendrin> If you ask about the golden ratio of the golden ratio, meaning golden_ratio(641,7) the result is 245 for 1680
20130419 23:14:34< Ivanovic> shadowm: lets test it:
20130419 23:14:36< Ivanovic> esr
20130419 23:14:37< Ivanovic> esr
20130419 23:14:39< Ivanovic> esr
20130419 23:14:48< Ivanovic> yes, i really wonder about the git status
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20130419 23:15:08< shadowm> Ivanovic: You saw what I said in the admins channel, didn't you?
20130419 23:15:20< shadowm> Also what AI0867 said.
20130419 23:15:51< seanl> How do i compile wesnoth from source with linux ubuntu
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20130419 23:16:00< shadowm> Ivanovic: I think the status can be summed up as "partially broken" (missing branches _again_, just like the move to SF.net at first).
20130419 23:16:22< tokliw> seanl: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth
20130419 23:16:56< LordBob_> fendrin: I'm looking up some things to see how it might be applied to our situation. But I think we should go with practical considerations over artistic ones, for the time being
20130419 23:17:34< fendrin> Okay, fine.
20130419 23:19:52< LordBob_> fendrin: golden ratio sidebar ^^http://imagebin.org/254648
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20130419 23:20:50< LordBob_> Its width is the largest half of the second subdivision 
20130419 23:20:59< seanl> tokliw: If i use the command apt-get build-dep wesnoth, does it download a new copy of source code or does it buiild the source code that i have copied from git
20130419 23:21:11< LordBob_> (might be clearer if I overlay the golden rectangle on top)
20130419 23:21:33< shadowm> seanl: It installs the dependencies for the source package Wesnoth. You will still have to do the source code downloading and building yourself.
20130419 23:21:36< LordBob_> fendrin: either way, it loos a little too masive, I'd say
20130419 23:21:37< shadowm> *wesnoth
20130419 23:22:00< seanl> shadowm: oh i see thanks
20130419 23:22:07< fendrin> seanl: Apt-get build-dep wesnoth will just install the dependencies to build the debian package.
20130419 23:22:12< shadowm> seanl: And possibly install any dependencies that have changed upstream (i.e. us), if the version of the source package 'wesnoth' in your distribution is too old.
20130419 23:22:30< shadowm> 1.10 for 1.11.x/master should do just fine, I believe.
20130419 23:22:40< fendrin> Oh, shadowm was quicker :-)
20130419 23:24:04< tokliw> seanl: i use ubuntu and i just did all the steps listed and it did just fine
20130419 23:24:48< seanl> tokliw: ok thx
20130419 23:26:06< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, but I think one should count the border and deco to the sidebar for golden ratio context.
20130419 23:27:40< LordBob_> Fendrin: that's already what I did in the previous picture
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20130419 23:28:28< LordBob_> And if I go with the lower subdivision of the golden ratio, the width of the sidebar is roughly the same as the existing
20130419 23:33:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, that are good news. I think if we support different sizes at different resolutions we should try to keep that ratio.
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20130419 23:34:15< LordBob_> Yup, if only because it's functional
20130419 23:35:08< LordBob_> but beyond the golden ratio, i think there's already a lot to be gained if we keep doing things with a good grid
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20130419 23:39:20< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, the coding is ready now.
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20130419 23:41:38< LordBob_> Fendrin: that's good. The backgrounds will soon be as well
20130419 23:42:12< fendrin> LordBob_: I can't wait :-)
20130419 23:44:05< fendrin> LordBob_: Am I supposed to display the terrain information in the part obove the minimap?
20130419 23:46:08< LordBob_> Yes. I wasn't sure how much space it would require, though
20130419 23:46:45< LordBob_> If needed, I can do away with the border that separates the sidebar and upper bar
20130419 23:47:38< fendrin> I think it will fit.
20130419 23:47:47< fendrin> I just wonder how it will look.
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20130419 23:57:27< LordBob_> Fendrin: the finished backgrounds http://imagebin.org/254654
20130419 23:57:43< LordBob_> I included the grid for buttons placement in this image
20130419 23:57:56< fendrin> LordBob_: Fine, very fine.
20130419 23:58:04< LordBob_> I still need to cut down the different pieces and send them to you, though
20130419 23:58:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Does the button cover the blue border?
20130419 23:58:15< AI0867> is that gold stuff only supposed to be in the corners?
20130419 23:58:15< LordBob_> yes
20130419 23:58:22< AI0867> because the cutoff seems very abrupt
20130419 23:58:45< LordBob_> AI0867: which part do you mean ?
20130419 23:59:08< AI0867> the corners of the big map
20130419 23:59:16< AI0867> the viewport
--- Log closed Sat Apr 20 00:00:38 2013