--- Log opened Sun Apr 21 00:00:13 2013
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20130421 00:27:50< LordBob_> Fendrin: back
20130421 00:28:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Do you want to see a screenshot?
20130421 00:28:29< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'd like that, yes :)
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20130421 00:29:41< LordBob_> I've read your comment about the jpg images. I defaulted to jpg when there wasn't a need to manage transparency, but that's more out of habit than to serve any real purpose
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20130421 00:30:21< LordBob_> I can create a set in png format if needed
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20130421 00:36:09< shadowm> JPEG tends to be really lossy and introduces artifacts at most quality levels (not sure about 100).
20130421 00:37:29< shadowm> So we usually avoid JPEG for smaller (non-story) art so that people can obtain and work with a lossless copy without having to check the repository for it.
20130421 00:42:04< fendrin> LordBob_: One more fix of a button row and I will make one.
20130421 00:47:45< LordBob_> shadowm: duly noted. I usually work at 80 or 100% quality precisely because of those artifacts, but it is indeed better to use right from the start a format that's free of them. I'll create a png set
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20130421 00:54:36< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/254768
20130421 00:59:57< LordBob_> Fendrin: great. I would reorganize some of the buttons and of course there are the icons to take care of, but it's a very nice start
20130421 01:00:14< LordBob_> I'm glad that it's come this far in such a short time
20130421 01:00:55< fendrin> LordBob_: Indeed. Feels good to see that one of my projects is actually getting somewhere :-)
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20130421 01:03:13< LordBob_> Since my own share of the work is still very much in progress, I'll wait some more before I propose which buttons to move. I think it will be easier to apply all fixes at once after the icons are all done.
20130421 01:03:58< LordBob_> One thing's missing from the screenshot, though: the golden viewport frame. Did you meet problemm in applying it ?
20130421 01:07:57< fendrin> LordBob_: No, it's the next thing I do.
20130421 01:08:23< fendrin> LordBob_: Also that terminaters you made for the bars aren't used yet.
20130421 01:08:51< LordBob_> Now that you mention it, it's true they're missing
20130421 01:09:23< fendrin> But it is barely noticeably.
20130421 01:09:48< LordBob_> Indeed
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20130421 02:00:33< fendrin> LordBob_: Still awake? Another 5 minutes and I have a screenshot with the borders.
20130421 02:00:55< LordBob_> Yup
20130421 02:01:06< LordBob_> i'm working on HD icons and buttons
20130421 02:14:15< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, tiling is not working yet. I save you from looking at a scaled version :-)
20130421 02:14:54< LordBob_> hehe, sure. i'll wait some more
20130421 02:15:25< LordBob_> Sleep might be a good way of waiting, actually 
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20130421 02:46:51< threkk> hello
20130421 02:47:55< threkk> is there anybody here who could tell me about the projects in GSoC?
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20130421 03:18:20< mattsc> threkk: possibly.  It's easier to say if you ask a more concrete question.
20130421 03:18:52< threkk> right now I'm talking with happygrue about it, but maybe you can help me too
20130421 03:19:12< threkk> I'm interested in participating developing one of the AI projects
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20130421 03:20:09< mattsc> threkk: I might be able to help, depending on what kind of question you have.  But most likely you'll want to talk to Crab_
20130421 03:21:53< threkk> yes, I know I should find him. Despite that, I still would like to know the process I should follow to apply
20130421 03:22:10< threkk> and the previous knowledge is required
20130421 03:22:33< threkk> I've programmed before in lua and c++, but nothing serious
20130421 03:23:08< mattsc> threkk: that's probably good enough for most of the AI tasks.  Have you played Wesnoth?
20130421 03:23:11< threkk> but I think I've played enough games to have some experience fighting against AI's xD
20130421 03:23:25< mattsc> oh, there's the answer  :)
20130421 03:23:30< threkk> not yet, I didn't know it existed since a week ago :(
20130421 03:23:47< mattsc> Oh, you mean against AIs in general...
20130421 03:23:52< threkk> yes
20130421 03:24:12< mattsc> You definitely want some experience with the Wesnoth AI itself, so you should do some playing.
20130421 03:24:14< threkk> but I have downloaded the game and I'll start playing as soon as possible
20130421 03:24:23< mattsc> That's good.
20130421 03:25:04< mattsc> Besides that, what you do during the application period (right now) is probably the most important thing for your chances to get accepted.
20130421 03:25:19< mattsc> The mentors want to see that you can work with the Wesnoth code and get things done.
20130421 03:26:25< threkk> ok, is there any kind of task or anything similar?
20130421 03:27:06< mattsc> The recommended things to look at are the bug reports and the Easy Coding page on the wiki.
20130421 03:27:34< mattsc> Also, if you talk to Crab_, he can probably assign you a specific task related to the project you're interested in.
20130421 03:27:59< mattsc> Do you have a particular project yet that you're considering?
20130421 03:29:23< threkk> maybe the total defense or the campaing project
20130421 03:29:33< threkk> more probable the second
20130421 03:29:59< mattsc> updating the mainline campaigns?
20130421 03:30:15< threkk> yes
20130421 03:30:57< mattsc> For that project, it would help if you become quite familiar with the weaknesses of the default AI and both the old and the new AI capabilities.
20130421 03:31:31< mattsc> ... because it will involve playing the campaigns and realizing what can be improved compared to the current setup.
20130421 03:31:56< threkk> yes, it sounds logic
20130421 03:34:04< threkk> so, as a general advice, start playing asap xD
20130421 03:36:35< mattsc> Absolutely.  And submit a couple patches.
20130421 03:38:01< threkk> ok
20130421 03:38:45< threkk> where I can find them?
20130421 03:40:07< mattsc> bur reports are here: https://gna.org/bugs/?group=wesnoth
20130421 03:40:16< mattsc> *bug
20130421 03:40:32< mattsc> Easy Coding wiki page: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20130421 03:41:15< mattsc> If you decide to work on one of the EC tasks, it's advisable to put your name behind it and claim it.
20130421 03:41:51< threkk> ok
20130421 03:41:53< mattsc> Also, talk to Crab_, as he might have a specific task for you that specifically helps you get ready for that project
20130421 03:43:10< mattsc> Also, have you read up on the IRC logs of the last week or so?
20130421 03:43:32< mattsc> Crab_ has already provided a lot of information to other students that you might find useful.
20130421 03:43:41< mattsc> http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2013/04/
20130421 03:44:13< threkk> no, I haven't read them
20130421 03:46:22< threkk> so, I should talk with Crab_, shouldn't I? 
20130421 03:46:53< mattsc> yes
20130421 03:47:35< mattsc> He might not be back until Monday though (I don't know), so you can ask lesser people like me if you have questions in the meantime.  ;)
20130421 03:48:00< rsyh93> What do you mean by claim an EC task?
20130421 03:48:14< mattsc> Put your name behind it on the wiki page.
20130421 03:48:27< mattsc> That way people will know that you are working on it.
20130421 03:48:44< mattsc> It doesn't mean that nobody else is allowed to work on it, but it's less likely that somebody will.
20130421 03:50:46< threkk> well, I think most of them have somebody working on them, so we'll have to repeat xD
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20130421 06:26:23< danny_> Hello again
20130421 06:26:34< danny_> any mentor for the GSOC online?
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20130421 07:02:08< danny_> Hello Kratos
20130421 07:02:11< danny_> We meet again
20130421 07:02:31< kratos> hello danny
20130421 07:06:19< danny_> how is your GSOC research going on?
20130421 07:07:42< kratos> downloaded the wesnoth code and now trying to compile it on vc10 and looking around
20130421 07:08:11< kratos> but my major research starts on 27th
20130421 07:11:16< danny_> I see
20130421 07:11:21< danny_> are you only applying on Wesnoth
20130421 07:11:24< danny_> for GSOC
20130421 07:12:55< kratos> yes
20130421 07:13:38< kratos> Wouldnt get much time for preparing applications ... and where else would i get gaming + coding together :D
20130421 07:27:11< _8680_> Is `wesnoth -p /game/data/dir output/dir --preprocess-defines CAMPAIGN_XYZ` appropriate to get a snapshot of what the preprocessed WML would be after the player starts Campaign Xyz?
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20130421 09:52:30< fendrin> hi vultraz
20130421 09:52:51< fendrin> LordBob_: Morning :-)
20130421 09:53:07< fendrin> LordBob_: A screenshot is waiting in the forum thread.
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20130421 11:21:41< LordBob_> fendrin: back
20130421 11:22:09< LordBob_> I've seen the screenshot; it seems the tiling is working nicely :)
20130421 11:23:04< LordBob_> Would you be able to make one in a larger resolution, by any chance ? I'm curious to see the result :)
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20130421 12:47:01< vultraz> hey fendrin 
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20130421 13:21:46< vultraz> fendrin: really liking that screenshot you posted
20130421 13:25:14< vultraz> LordBob_: well, it is your art ;)
20130421 13:27:38< vultraz> fendrin: question:  shouldn't "Toggle Grid" be in that last unoccupied button next to the minimap? 
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20130421 19:18:35< mordante> servus
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20130421 19:27:07< _8680_> Were there any changes to the preprocessor between 1.10.5 and 1.11.2?
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20130421 19:40:51< mordante> vinipsmaker, I replied to your email
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20130421 19:55:16< vinipsmaker> mordante: thanks, I'll read it now
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20130421 20:41:04< LordBob_> fendrin: I've come up with a new set of buttons for both the tools and terrain/unit palettes, but I'm not sure how well they'll work because I worked on large sizes (which may result in quality loss in smaller scale, compared to the crispness of pixel art). 
20130421 20:41:46< LordBob_> fendrin: Would it be possible for you to implement them and produce a test screenshot ?
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20130421 20:49:44< Iordanis_> Hey
20130421 20:50:38< lipkab> Hi.
20130421 20:51:14< Iordanis_> Are there any mentors for GSOC online?
20130421 20:51:38< lipkab> mordante's here, but my client shows he's AFK.
20130421 20:52:08< lipkab> If you have any questions, better to ask rather than waiting for them.
20130421 20:52:29< lipkab> They read the logs, and will reply.
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20130421 20:59:29< flix> mattsc: I found out that my work was redundant :( : Because you can make use of the existing lua function unit.advances_to(). It is a read/write table.
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20130421 21:02:46< mattsc> flix: that's too bad, but I am sure you learned something in the process anyway, so not all is lost
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20130421 21:05:09< flix> mattsc: I mean if you want to decide the advancement-type dependent on something like the location, then my aspect-function is maybe a little bit more straightforward, but though not worth adding in my opinion... Of course, I learned a lot and I hope Crab_ will take a look at the code.
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20130421 21:08:23< mattsc> flix: sounds good.  Let's see what Crab_ has to say.
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20130421 21:22:01< flix> Who could mentor "AI: Improve configuration and behavior in mainline campaigns". I could imagine to write a proposal for this as a backup, because I have now a good overview of what the AI is capable of.
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20130421 21:29:14< fendrin> LordBob_: hi
20130421 21:29:23< fendrin> hi vultraz
20130421 21:29:53< vultraz> hey fendrin 
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20130421 21:33:49< fendrin> vultraz: The empty one along the mini map is reserved for the flip map action.
20130421 21:33:57< vultraz> ah
20130421 21:34:04< vultraz> yet to have an icon?
20130421 21:35:05< fendrin> vultraz: Well, the action had an icon and thus lord bob did a new one.
20130421 21:35:16< fendrin> vultraz: But the code is no longer there.
20130421 21:35:22< vultraz> qh
20130421 21:35:24< vultraz> ah
20130421 21:35:30< vultraz> so, waiting on recoding?
20130421 21:35:43< fendrin> vultraz: It must have been removed by ilor when he did the editor overhaul, was his gsoc project.
20130421 21:36:17< vultraz> ah
20130421 21:36:27< vultraz> so you're going to reimplament it?
20130421 21:37:18< fendrin> Well, most likely. All the button placement and their functions aren't final yet.
20130421 21:39:17< vultraz> ok
20130421 21:39:25< vultraz> it looks really good so far :)
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20130421 21:43:48< fendrin> vultraz: Well, credits for good looking belong to LordBob_ mostly.
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20130421 21:44:21< mattsc> flix: sorry, It's one of those on/off days for me again ...
20130421 21:44:53< mattsc> flix: the official mentor would be Crab_, but with that particular project I could help quite a bit also.
20130421 21:44:57< fendrin> vultraz: But it is not only a cosmetic overhaul, all the gui elements got a little more intelligent. Meaning every button knows about his state yet and behaves correspondingly.
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20130421 21:46:24< Zazweda> Hey
20130421 21:46:51< fendrin> vultraz: The former buttons where all stupid. The default zoom button for example didn't show when you are in default zoom, the zoom in and zoom out buttons weren't grayed out when you reached min or max zoom level.
20130421 21:47:19< fendrin> hi Zazweda
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20130421 21:48:37< fendrin> s/where/were
20130421 21:49:01< Zazweda> mattsc: I read about the SLF, but I am not sure of how I can use it in my AI :o
20130421 21:49:42< mattsc> Hi, Zazweda.  Ok, give me 10 min to finish something else and we can talk about it.
20130421 21:50:54< Zazweda> sure
20130421 21:50:57< Zazweda> thanks
20130421 21:51:31< flix> mattsc: Okay: Some questions: 1. How "old" are the AIs in the mainline? Is something done with lua yet? 2. Are there some specific ideas what to improve? Maybe in the forum?
20130421 21:52:46< mattsc> flix: may I have 10 min before talking to you also?  In the meantime, you can read about the newest AI capabilities here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs
20130421 21:52:55< mattsc> (if you haven't done so yet)
20130421 22:01:43< thunderstruck> mordante, lipkabb: I did bisection to find which commit introduced the new_animation bug. It is http://pastebin.com/DGQXaquc
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20130421 22:02:23< thunderstruck> mordante, lipkabb: if you are interested I can tell what else I found out and then we can discuss what is the best way to fix that issue.
20130421 22:02:32< mattsc> Zazweda, flix: ok, I'm back.
20130421 22:03:07< mattsc> Zazweda: so what you want to do (if I understand things correctly) is to defined your zone with an SLF that you put into the cfg table.
20130421 22:03:22< mattsc> Then you do a :
20130421 22:03:58< mattsc> local locs = wesnoth.get_locations { SLF }   (this is partially pseudo code, of course)
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20130421 22:04:17< mattsc> which gets you an array of all the hexes in your zone.
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20130421 22:05:00< mattsc> flix: 1. _old_ and no.
20130421 22:05:22< Zazweda> so the get_locations will only return the hexs inside the filter ?
20130421 22:05:39< mattsc> Well, that's not 100% true, we've introduced some minor amount of Lua AI into a couple of the campaigns recently, but there's still a long way to go
20130421 22:05:55< fendrin> Zazweda: The get_locations will return every hex fields which matches the filter :-)
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20130421 22:06:02< mattsc> Zazweda: the hexes defined by the filter, yes
20130421 22:06:20< Zazweda> sounds good, and the enemy check can be done using the filter too ?
20130421 22:06:42< mattsc> Zazweda: yes.  Remind me what sort of enemy check you are doing.
20130421 22:07:05< Zazweda> for now I'm checking if an enemy is within the rectangle or just around
20130421 22:07:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Sorry, I didn't really get what kind of screenshot you want to see.
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20130421 22:07:44< Zazweda> (the just around is optional, it was just to simulate the fact that it doesn't want the player to come ine the zone)
20130421 22:08:27< mattsc> flix: 2.  There aren't really specific ideas listed anywhere, the general idea is to make sure the AI uses all the current capabilies (both in terms of the standard RCA aspects, and new Lua AIs such as the Micro AIs)
20130421 22:10:12< mattsc> Zazweda: the checking if a unit is in the zone is trivial, checking whether an enemy is adjacent (or a certain distance away) is only a couple lines of code more.
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20130421 22:13:31< Zazweda> mattsc: but how can I access the position that's inside the filter ?
20130421 22:14:10< mattsc> flix: although, if you go through the "Mainline Campaign Feedback" forum posts, not infrequently somebody posts something to the effect of "this would be much more interesting if the enemy or ally AI did ..."
20130421 22:14:59< flix> mattsc: Okay! Will the task also be to test or improve balancing?
20130421 22:15:06< mattsc> Zazweda: the line of code I gave you above puts all the hexes inside the zone into variable 'locs'.
20130421 22:15:28< Zazweda> Heyok
20130421 22:15:31< Zazweda> ok
20130421 22:15:34< mattsc> You loop over it, or make it a Location Set (in which case you can access the elements directly)
20130421 22:15:36< Zazweda> got it thanks
20130421 22:16:23< mattsc> Zazweda: have you used debug_utils.dbms() from the Wesnoth Lua Pack before (there's also a local, slightly changed version of it in AI-demos)
20130421 22:16:39< Zazweda> nop
20130421 22:16:40< mattsc> flix: yes, absolutely
20130421 22:16:52< flix> mattsc: btw: I realy like all those micro-ais but I think it could be hard to 'force' to use them in the mainline campains. 
20130421 22:16:57< mattsc> If you change the AI, in most cases you will have to rebalance.
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20130421 22:18:09< mattsc> flix: no, you shouldn't force their use when they don't fit.  But there are scenarios where they might come in naturally; or we'd adapt a Micro AI or write a new one, so that it fits better
20130421 22:18:45< mattsc> Zazweda: try it out then.  Put in the line above, then these two:
20130421 22:19:03< mattsc> local DBG = wesnoth.require "~/add-ons/AI-demos/lua/debug.lua"
20130421 22:19:09< mattsc> DBG.dbms(locs)
20130421 22:19:13< mattsc> and watch the result
20130421 22:19:36< mattsc> It's _extremely_ useful for Lua AI development (and probably other Lua coding as well)
20130421 22:19:53< Zazweda> ok
20130421 22:20:02< Zazweda> give me a sec
20130421 22:20:23< mattsc> flix: also just using the RCA AI aspects better will help in some cases.
20130421 22:20:26< lipkabb> thunderstruck: Whoah, that's a huge commit.
20130421 22:21:07< lipkabb> thunderstruck: I don't say I'm not interested in the details, but there's little chance that I can add anything useful.
20130421 22:23:20< flix> mattsc: Okay thank you for answering all those questions! I will work on my proposals now :)
20130421 22:23:30< mattsc> flix: no worries
20130421 22:23:33< thunderstruck> lipkabb, commit is huge, but it is rather simple than you look at it.
20130421 22:24:05< thunderstruck> lipkabb, anyway, I found out why that commit caused this problem, so you don't have to dig it.
20130421 22:24:43< thunderstruck> lipkabb, the problem is that there was a change how carryovers are handled
20130421 22:25:21< thunderstruck> lipkabb, and in particular, the new units were created when storing (I guess) carryover
20130421 22:26:01< thunderstruck> lipkabb, and then you create new units and controller is destroyed there is a problem
20130421 22:26:51< thunderstruck> lipkabb, to me it seems that the problem is not with that commit, but with the unit's class.
20130421 22:27:00< thunderstruck> lipkabb, what do you think?
20130421 22:29:52< lipkabb> thunderstruck: Ok, just to make sure that I parse the problem right:
20130421 22:30:08< lipkabb> A new unit is created to be stored in the carryover.
20130421 22:30:24< lipkabb> As part of the creation, add_modification is called.
20130421 22:30:36< lipkabb> Which tries to access an already destroyed object.
20130421 22:30:46< lipkabb> Is that correct?
20130421 22:31:11< thunderstruck> lipkabb, yes
20130421 22:31:49< thunderstruck> lipkabb, basically, the issue is that it was assumed (maybe) that units can be created only during scenarios
20130421 22:32:10< thunderstruck> lipkabb, 'cause only during scenarios controller is accessible
20130421 22:32:20< thunderstruck> s/accessible/available
20130421 22:32:24< lipkabb> Yes, that's how I interpret it as well.
20130421 22:32:53< thunderstruck> lipkabb, so do you think the problem is with the commit or unit's class?
20130421 22:33:09< lipkabb> I'd say the unit.
20130421 22:33:38< lipkabb> It has an almost completely unnecessary dependance on the controller.
20130421 22:34:08< thunderstruck> lipkabb, that's what I think as well.
20130421 22:34:08< lipkabb> Removing that dependency would make the code more robust, even if a bit slower.
20130421 22:35:51< thunderstruck> lipkabb, if the code is to beremoved, animation_cache becomes useless, I think.
20130421 22:36:16< lipkabb> Hmm, I'm not sure about that one.
20130421 22:36:36< lipkabb> Did you check the references?
20130421 22:36:53< lipkabb> add_modification could be called on level-up as well.
20130421 22:36:58< thunderstruck> lipkabb, what references? I just looked at the output of grep.
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20130421 22:37:54< lipkabb> thunderstruck: I wanted to say "usages".
20130421 22:38:07< lipkabb> KDevelop calls those references.
20130421 22:38:48< thunderstruck> lipkabb, ah, ok. Well, according to the grep it is used in only one place and that place cause the problem.
20130421 22:39:54< lipkabb> Well, then it can be removed, I guess.
20130421 22:40:06< thunderstruck> lipkabb, actually, that makes me wonder, how that animation_cache works...
20130421 22:40:25< lipkabb> Maybe boucman can tell you about it.
20130421 22:42:25< thunderstruck> lipkabb, thanks for your opinion. I will submit a patch with that stuff removed and I put parts of our chat as arguments.
20130421 22:44:15< thunderstruck> lipkabb, as for the animation_cache, I think it just doesn't work. Because nothing is added to it. It is used to retrieve only.
20130421 22:44:55< lipkabb> thunderstruck: Maybe. I could imagine that our code is full of such litter.
20130421 22:45:55< lipkabb> The code base is very large so many developers (including me) don't clean up properly after themselves.
20130421 22:46:17< thunderstruck> lipkabb, in that case even the performance would not suffer at all. Actually, it would increase a little bit.
20130421 22:46:30< mordante> thunderstruck, that is the gold bug or the crash?
20130421 22:46:50< thunderstruck> mordante, it is new_animation bug. I don't know nothing about gold bug.
20130421 22:47:03< thunderstruck> mordante, and it causes a crash.
20130421 22:48:11< mordante> thunderstruck, ok, well I read about a gold carry-over bug as well
20130421 22:48:24< mordante> see whether I can retrieve is
20130421 22:48:28< mordante> it*
20130421 22:49:24< mordante> thunderstruck, http://wesnoth.debian.net/%23wesnoth-dev-2013-04-20.log starting at 15:29
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20130421 22:50:40< fendrin> hi mordante
20130421 22:50:45< thunderstruck> mordante, that was something else :)
20130421 22:50:51< mordante> hi fendrin 
20130421 22:51:21< mordante> thunderstruck, well the title of the commit triggered me
20130421 22:51:47< fendrin> mordante: A screenshot of the editor: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=551908#p551908 
20130421 22:52:33< Zazweda> ls
20130421 22:52:36< Zazweda> oops
20130421 22:52:50< mordante> fendrin, what happened to the group button or is that the forest?
20130421 22:53:35< mordante> fendrin, is it on purpose the buttons are all `white'?
20130421 22:54:03< lipkabb> fendrin: Will there be more buttons on the top toolbar?
20130421 22:54:13< mordante> fendrin, but it looks like things are moving forward
20130421 22:55:13< fendrin> mordante: Yes, the forest one is the current group, pressing it will bring up your new dialog.
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20130421 22:56:11< fendrin> mordante: Well, the selected ones are yellow. Lord Bob will provide a version for disabled buttons. Since graying them out doesn't work. 
20130421 22:56:20< fendrin> lipkabb: Yes
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20130421 22:57:21< lipkabb> fendrin: Good, I won't start moaning about wasting of space then :)
20130421 22:57:29< fendrin> :-)
20130421 22:58:15< mordante> fendrin, ok
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20130421 23:01:16< mordante> fendrin, the group dialog now works, code needs minor polishing and once committed I need to look at the matrix instead of the listboxes
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20130421 23:01:41< fendrin> mordante: Would you PM me a patch?
20130421 23:01:45< mordante> fendrin, I'll start to polish once we have the new reop up and running
20130421 23:01:58< fendrin> please
20130421 23:02:00< mordante> since it needs to be separated in multiple patches
20130421 23:02:11< mordante> fendrin, yes, well the messages crossed ;-)
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20130421 23:07:27< Zazweda> bye
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20130421 23:08:11< LordBob_> fendrin: I'd like to see a screenshot (two, actually) of the editor UI with the experimental 25 pix + 30 pix buttons and the experimental 38 pix + 74 pix unit/terrain palette seletors that I PM to you on the forum
20130421 23:08:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Ah hi
20130421 23:09:57< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, please let's discuss our current results first.
20130421 23:10:07< LordBob_> Of course
20130421 23:10:34< LordBob_> What do you want to talk about ?
20130421 23:10:49< fendrin> LordBob_: You claimed the tiling to work nicely but that isn't exactly true.
20130421 23:11:04< fendrin> Please have a look at the screenshot in the forum.
20130421 23:11:17< LordBob_> Oh. I had assumed it did, my bad
20130421 23:11:41< LordBob_> I am looking at it right now
20130421 23:12:12< fendrin> LordBob_: If you look very closely, you will notice a lonely pixel on the vertical border every few centimeters.
20130421 23:12:25< LordBob_> I see it still lacks the right side border for the menu bar & upper tool bar
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20130421 23:12:52< fendrin> no
20130421 23:12:58< fendrin> They are applied.
20130421 23:13:24< LordBob_> Oh, right, sorry.
20130421 23:13:53< LordBob_> It wasn't clear with the forum's auto zoom out, but on a closer look they're here all right
20130421 23:13:56< fendrin> But the lines could cross, the inner ones.
20130421 23:14:23< fendrin> LordBob_: I suspect those are in the artwork, not in the tiling algorithm.
20130421 23:15:12< LordBob_> I see what you mean. And indeed thay are. I had initially left this part out because I thought we might be tiling the vertical border, but since it belongs to the sidebar artwork I'll be able to correct that junction
20130421 23:15:56< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, fine. Now have a look at the horizontal map border.
20130421 23:16:02< fendrin> Do you see the error?
20130421 23:16:07< fendrin> It is also very small.
20130421 23:16:11< LordBob_> As for the lone pixel in the border, you're refering to this stray pixel in the golden viewport frame, aren't you ?
20130421 23:16:25< fendrin> Yes
20130421 23:16:26< LordBob_> (in the vertical one, I mean)
20130421 23:16:51< fendrin> yes
20130421 23:17:01< LordBob_> (and yeah, i see there's also the same glitch in the horizontal border
20130421 23:17:16< fendrin> Okay, the horizontal glitch is not in the artwork.
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20130421 23:17:45< fendrin> It is because the tiling happens from right to left, in order to work for the horizontal one it would need to tile from left to right.
20130421 23:18:34< fendrin> LordBob_: I will make you a screenshot with a higher resolution, that shows this problem more explicitly. Just two minutes, please.
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20130421 23:20:35< LordBob_> fendrin: it would help indeed. Right now, I'm not certain that what I think I see isn't actually a jpeg artifact
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20130421 23:21:55< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay
20130421 23:23:45< vultraz> BTW, what happened to the fancy corner thingy?
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20130421 23:24:36< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/254890
20130421 23:25:19< fendrin> vultraz: The fancy corner thing is already part of the gui. But it is overdrawn by the game map, like I predicted. It will need some tricks or extra coding to make it visible.
20130421 23:26:22< vultraz> oh, and um...shouldn't we have a save button?
20130421 23:26:39< fendrin> vultraz: Yes, maybe.
20130421 23:26:58< vultraz> Maybe put it where the End Turn button is in the game ui?
20130421 23:26:59< LordBob_> That'd be a fine addition to the common-use tools indeed
20130421 23:27:00< fendrin> LordBob_: You see the problem with the upper toolbars right?
20130421 23:27:50< LordBob_> fendrin: I see a jump in color between the right side border and where the tiling begins
20130421 23:27:57< fendrin> Indeed.
20130421 23:27:57< vultraz> fendrin: also, why's there a gray patch around the group image?
20130421 23:28:34< fendrin> vultraz: Because LordBob_ made a border for me to fit the button in. The button will be at 30 pixel at the end but I still don't have the artwork for it.
20130421 23:28:41< LordBob_> vultraz: that's part of the background.
20130421 23:28:54< LordBob_> and indeed a placeholder
20130421 23:29:04< vultraz> ah ok
20130421 23:29:47< fendrin> LordBob_: The jump in color is because your tile is brighter at the right end and you made the end tile fitting to it.
20130421 23:30:21< LordBob_> fendrin: doesn't the tiling begin from the right side ?
20130421 23:30:28< fendrin> LordBob_: No.
20130421 23:31:03< fendrin> LordBob_: Tiling is done currently from top to buttom (That is why the vertical line works fine, except the little glitch in the artwork) and from right to left.
20130421 23:31:28< LordBob_> Left to right, you mean ?
20130421 23:31:58< fendrin> No, it works currently from right to left, if it would work from left to right, the art would fit.
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20130421 23:32:40< vultraz> fendrin: sorry for throwing more suggestions at you, but how about an X button at the right of the top bar that closes the current map
20130421 23:33:43< fendrin> vultraz: Well, there are plenty of functions to add. What about making them assignable. Thus the user will be able to bind a function to a button at will.
20130421 23:33:47< fendrin> ?
20130421 23:34:12< LordBob_> Fendrin: are you certain ? When I sliced the artwork, I made sure the transition between the right side border and the right side of the tile would work properly :/
20130421 23:34:13< vultraz> eh...
20130421 23:34:24< vultraz> that sounds good
20130421 23:34:48< vultraz> fendrin: another thing: with the influx of buttons, are the menus still needed?
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20130421 23:35:04< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, it is not your fault, it is a problem of wrong working tiling.
20130421 23:35:20< vultraz> I mean, File and Window could stay
20130421 23:35:29< vultraz> but I think Map and Edit could go
20130421 23:35:51< fendrin> vultraz: I am thinking about transforming  the "edit" menu into a context menu one.
20130421 23:36:21< LordBob_> vultraz: they are. In the same way some people will only swear by icons and others by text for the unit overview in the game, we shouldn't force upon our users the means to pick their tools
20130421 23:37:33< vultraz> ah
20130421 23:37:52< fendrin> Indeed, what LordBob_ said.
20130421 23:38:00< LordBob_> We cannot predict how different people will use the editor, so I think the best we can do is to provide different means to obtain the same result
20130421 23:38:32< LordBob_> (different controls, in fact, but no functional redundancy of course)
20130421 23:38:58< vultraz> Yeah, I guess same as with the save thing. I, for one, use the keyboard for saving, but some people might like a button or the menu
20130421 23:39:35< LordBob_> fendrin: about the horizontal tiling: do you think it can be solved, or should we consider a different arrangement of our tiles ?
20130421 23:40:06< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, that has to be discussed.
20130421 23:41:32< fendrin> LordBob_: There are several possible solutions: 1) Art wise: You provide me with images that just tile fine under all circumstances. But this would limit your possibilities..
20130421 23:42:18< fendrin> 2) I just reverse how the horizontal tiling works, this will fix the issue without new art work, but cause glitches in cases we where we have to tile the other way around.
20130421 23:42:54< fendrin> 3) I make the tiling work on both directions, being configurable.
20130421 23:43:08< mordante> I'm off night
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20130421 23:44:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Ich würde mit der Nummer 2) gehen, unser jetziges Layout braucht nur solches Tiling.
20130421 23:45:00< LordBob_> You lost me after "gehen" ^^;;;
20130421 23:46:52< LordBob_> Although, if I'm guessing right, you're thinking we can alwas manage with a single tiling direction/point of reference
20130421 23:47:03< LordBob_> *alawys
20130421 23:47:11< LordBob_> **always, dammit !
20130421 23:47:12< fendrin> oh sorry wrong language
20130421 23:47:26< LordBob_> no no, it's okay, I got most of it
20130421 23:48:00< fendrin> I think we can go with solution number 2), should be easy coding wise. And we only have the need for this way of working with our current layout.
20130421 23:48:57< fendrin> Still, if we want to introduce more tiling gui elements later we might run into problems then.
20130421 23:49:02< LordBob_> It would work indeed. Howevern if we're thinking in the long term, there might eventually be people (or our future selves) trying to develop new themes for the game who run into this very problem
20130421 23:49:07< LordBob_> Exactly :)
20130421 23:50:10< fendrin> Okay, then it is settled and I will make the tilling direction configurable. There is not even an extra attribute needed, the xancor=left/right should be enough.
20130421 23:50:39< LordBob_> That would be great
20130421 23:50:52< fendrin> LordBob_: Beside this little problem I think the tiling is fine and the result looks great :-)
20130421 23:51:41< fendrin> LordBob_: By the way, this also introduces nice tiling on the game interface, it just worked out of the box.
20130421 23:52:07< LordBob_> One question that comes to mind (out of curiosity ,really): how come you're having to code technologies that are already in use everywhere on the web ? Is it because the technical framework of the game normally doesn't manage these sort of things ?
20130421 23:52:45< vultraz> LordBob_: I think it's because Wesnoth's gui was done from the ground up
20130421 23:52:56< vultraz> custom widgets, everything
20130421 23:53:01< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, that is because we don't use a library for our gui system but code our own systems.
20130421 23:53:11< vultraz> what fendrin said
20130421 23:53:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Meaning we reinvent the Wheel.
20130421 23:53:53< LordBob_> Oh. I guess there are both good and bad aspects to this
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20130421 23:54:19< fendrin> LordBob_: The funny thing you don't know is: There have been two methods in our code base since ages: scale_image and tile_image.
20130421 23:55:03< fendrin> LordBob_: All I did to make tiling working was to replace the call for scale_image(current_panel_image) with tile_image(current_panel_image), thus a one line fix.
20130421 23:55:18< fendrin> LordBob_: This could have been done 7 years ago.
20130421 23:55:50< LordBob_> Oh. The capacity was there all the time, only never activated ? Heh. At least this means things were simpler than if you'd had to code everything from the ground
20130421 23:56:33< LordBob_> Anyway, a functional tiling system in game is great news as well, for both the existing UI and our future projects :) 
20130421 23:56:34< fendrin> Yeah, sadly I started to implement my own tiling procedure before I noticed that everything needed is already in place.
20130421 23:57:09< LordBob_> :s Not as fun as I'd expected, then
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20130421 23:57:29< fendrin> Well, only 20 minutes were lost.
20130421 23:57:51< LordBob_> So, if I sum things up.
20130421 23:57:58< LordBob_> Things for me to do
20130421 23:58:17< LordBob_> * fix the viewport borders tiling glitch
20130421 23:58:32< LordBob_> * fix the menu bars rightside junction
20130421 23:58:49< fendrin> No
20130421 23:59:11< LordBob_> * and provide png backgrounds
20130421 23:59:13< LordBob_> No ?
20130421 23:59:23< fendrin> You only need to solve the lonely pixel in the vertical border frame.
20130421 23:59:54< fendrin> The menu bars rightside junction will be fixed by me with coding the different tiling method.
--- Log closed Mon Apr 22 00:00:00 2013