--- Log opened Tue Apr 23 00:00:19 2013
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20130423 00:25:34< LordBob_> Fendrin: http://imagebin.org/254984
20130423 00:26:01< LordBob_> I tried to retain the expressive shapes of the previous sample while making them cleaner
20130423 00:26:19< fendrin> LordBob_: Cave is fine now.
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20130423 00:27:12< fendrin> LordBob_: And I get the dune better.
20130423 00:27:52< fendrin> LordBob_: The riff is still difficult.
20130423 00:29:53< LordBob_> note the "terrain info" icon in the bottom right corner: I would use it to introduce the line, for instance [info icon]: (x,y) [terrain icon 1] [terrain icon 2] [terrain icon 2] 
20130423 00:30:25< LordBob_> Fendrin: and indeed, the riff is giving me a hard time
20130423 00:31:01< LordBob_> Do the mountains, hills and water still read properly now that I've cleaned them ?
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20130423 00:43:59< Iordanis> Where can I find the documentation for the type of spells or attacks?
20130423 00:44:16< Iordanis> I am trying to find it in Wiki but I can't find the right section
20130423 00:45:31< LordBob_> Fendrin: is this reef any better ?
20130423 00:46:00< fendrin> LordBob_: Is there a version I missed?
20130423 00:46:26< LordBob_> http://imagebin.org/254986
20130423 00:46:39< LordBob_> You didn't. I was having trouble with ImageBin
20130423 00:47:12< Iordanis> I found this list http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/branches/1.10/doc/manual/manual.en.html#_attack_types but where can I find what weapon belongs to what type of attack?
20130423 00:47:32< Iordanis> are the examples the entire list?
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20130423 00:49:13< fendrin> Iordanis: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitTypeWML#Attacks
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20130423 00:49:29< fendrin> LordBob_: Sorry. no.
20130423 00:50:09< LordBob_> Dammit!
20130423 00:50:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Give it a rest and do something else.
20130423 00:51:01< LordBob_> Fendrin: I know, that's what I am doing right now. But...how about I dropped the water and kept only the reef in this particular icon ?
20130423 00:51:46< LordBob_> or at least simplified it. Right now, it's trying to keep the same water outline as in Shallow water that is giving me hell
20130423 00:52:22< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, only the reef might work better. The color already suggest that it is some watery terrain.
20130423 00:53:31< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'll try that tomorrow. Did you have time to take a look at the tools icons ?
20130423 00:53:39< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes.
20130423 00:53:50< fendrin> LordBob_: I have a little suggestion.
20130423 00:54:00< LordBob_> Listening
20130423 00:54:29< fendrin> LordBob_: Make the button for partial undo, with interrupted lines.
20130423 00:54:36< fendrin> LordBob_: I don't know the right word.
20130423 00:56:58< LordBob_> Fendrin: perhaps you mean filled with hatching, or possibly drawn with a dotted line for contour ?
20130423 00:57:13< LordBob_> (I meant for stroke)
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20130423 00:57:52< fendrin> LordBob_: I meant the dotted line.
20130423 00:58:36< LordBob_> Ok, I think I get it. Draw it as if it were not a continuous arrow, but instead several contiguous steps
20130423 00:59:34< fendrin> yoah
20130423 01:00:37< LordBob_> Fendrin: how about the selection control icons ? Those are the ones I'm the less certain about, because there's rarely an icon for these functions
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20130423 01:03:21< fendrin> LordBob_: All/None/and invert
20130423 01:03:38< fendrin> LordBob_: They work for me.
20130423 01:03:53< fendrin> LordBob_: What is the sun for?
20130423 01:03:55< LordBob_> Do they? Good, then
20130423 01:04:28< LordBob_> Well, we had mentionned once the possiblity to provide direct access to the daylight settings window in the editor
20130423 01:04:40< fendrin> Ah yes.
20130423 01:04:52< LordBob_> So I thought adding an icon for it next to the minimap might be nice
20130423 01:05:05< fendrin> LordBob_: Tile it diagonally and add a moon :-)
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20130423 01:13:22< ponder> hello is there anyone that can answer some questions about the gsoc 2013 student applications please?
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20130423 01:14:48< kelpy> Im a student applying
20130423 01:14:56< kelpy> but Ive heard most of the answers
20130423 01:15:05< kelpy> ponder: perhaps I can help?
20130423 01:15:13< ponder> ok do you know what there basic requirements are?
20130423 01:15:35< kelpy> depends on the project
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20130423 01:15:45< kelpy> but knowledge of c++ seems to be retty universal
20130423 01:15:52< ponder> thats all i got so far lol
20130423 01:16:04< ponder> is that i know c++ and ive taken 2 semesters of it
20130423 01:16:14< kelpy> nice.
20130423 01:16:32< kelpy> well if you can understand enough of the source code to submit 1-2 patches
20130423 01:16:37< kelpy> then you should be good
20130423 01:16:54< ponder> where could i go to view and submit this?
20130423 01:18:32< kelpy> have you read the summer of code ideas page?
20130423 01:19:41< ponder> haha obvious start, jumped to the irc channel first to talk to people going to go read now :P
20130423 01:19:45< ponder> thanks!
20130423 01:20:10< kelpy> np :)
20130423 01:28:46< LordBob_> fendrin: updated set of icons, this time with the golden tint for their "pressed" state. http://imagebin.org/254990
20130423 01:29:09< Jetrel> niiice.
20130423 01:29:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Partial is fine.
20130423 01:30:05< LordBob_> Jetrel: Thanks. :)  I'm sticking to the blue-and-gold button theme, as we'd discussed
20130423 01:30:13< fendrin> Jetrel: http://imagebin.org/254930
20130423 01:30:41< Jetrel> Looking great.
20130423 01:31:17< Jetrel> LordBob_:  speaking of stuff, if all those textures you'd come up with for window backgrounds are basically finished, they'd be a nice asset to have.
20130423 01:31:38< LordBob_> And wait 'till we get to the HD theme 8)
20130423 01:31:48< Jetrel> I mean, obviously we want one as a default, and I think the choice there was good, but the others could be great for campaign alts or somesuch.
20130423 01:33:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Please give me them separated. I want to produce a screenshot. 
20130423 01:34:19< LordBob_> Jetrel: right now the textures are only a bunch of 300*700 patches, but I can easily produce a screenworth for each and post it as ressources, of course
20130423 01:35:55< LordBob_> fendrin: I haven't finished yet the 30 pix set and there might be some naming problems. Are you sure you don't want to wait until tomorrow ?
20130423 01:36:12< fendrin> LordBob_: Sure, I wait.
20130423 01:37:17< fendrin> LordBob_: Mordante gave me a first version of the select palette group implementation. It is still ugly as hell.
20130423 01:37:26< Jetrel> It's up to you, really.
20130423 01:37:46< fendrin> But looks pretty much like what is needed function wise.
20130423 01:40:30< LordBob_> Jetrel: to tell the truth, I was slightly disappointed that some of those textures might not get used, and I even had some more ideas. So I really don't mind toying ith them a bit more :)
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20130423 01:40:43< Jetrel> Okay. :)
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20130423 01:41:41< LordBob_> fendrin: that's good news. "ugly as hell" isn't anything we can't solve anyway ^^
20130423 01:42:34< fendrin> Jetrel:  If you speak about the many different background textures LordBob_ made, I want to implement many different themes, maybe one for elf campaigns, one for undead and so on.
20130423 01:42:46 * Jetrel nods
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20130423 01:43:21< fendrin> LordBob_: I fear it is. The dialog is still deformed because it had been a listbox before. Pure mutant. I will give you a screenshot.
20130423 01:44:28< LordBob_> Let's not get too wild with themes, though. We wouldn't want players to feel like they're playing a completely foreign game each time they launch a new campaign :p
20130423 01:45:28< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/254991
20130423 01:46:02 * LordBob_ doesn't get how the window works
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20130423 01:47:18< fendrin> LordBob_: It is just a matrix of buttons, if you select a button by clicking it the dialog is dismissed and the terrain group selected.
20130423 01:47:58< fendrin> LordBob_: Maybe it can be called being Ribbon like.
20130423 01:48:30< LordBob_> don't we display names for these groups ? Some of them - such as "mainline" won't be very intuitive as standalone icons
20130423 01:49:03< fendrin> mainline isn't a terrain group.
20130423 01:49:08< fendrin> No, we do not.
20130423 01:49:18< fendrin> But the buttons offer tooltips.
20130423 01:50:27< fendrin> The current implementation is list based, with the group name. But this dialog isn't fast enough. You need to switch terrains often, thus the old implementation had the group buttons at the editor's side. 
20130423 01:50:29< LordBob_> is it? Still, there's a "mainline" button in the image folder (the small shield that shows up on the last two lines here)
20130423 01:50:54< fendrin> LordBob_: Ah yes. That is for campaign specific terrain.
20130423 01:51:26< fendrin> LordBob_: The group would be either "Delfador's Memoirs" or "Under the Burning Suns".
20130423 01:52:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Another solution I thought of was to use the editor palette itself for selecting the groups.
20130423 01:52:45< LordBob_> Ok. anyway, it's not like we need the editor to be as accessible as the game itself. i'd expect maps creators to konw their way around already
20130423 01:53:26< LordBob_> Nah. Too many informations displayed in the same place is confusion-prone
20130423 01:54:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, making map is consuming some time. It really is nice to get things done quickly. A good editor means good addons.
20130423 01:54:44< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus I really want spend some time on optimization.
20130423 01:55:25< LordBob_> Fendrin: on this we agree. What I meant is that someone who likes the game enough to start creating maps will probably be familiar enough with the game to be able to find his way in the terrain groups, text or not.
20130423 01:56:46< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, we will use the new icons you produced as the base terrain representer for the groups as well, won't we?
20130423 01:57:24< LordBob_> Fendrin: on a completely unrelated note, is that a tiling glitch on the right edge of the terrain palette ?,
20130423 01:57:36< LordBob_> (in the latest screenshot)
20130423 01:58:51< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes it is. The editor palette widget still has some drawing problems when the screen sizes changes.
20130423 01:59:27< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'd like to produce larger versions of these base terrain icons (30x30) to use in the editor and also unit descriptions
20130423 01:59:52< fendrin> Sehr geil.
20130423 02:06:18< fendrin> vultraz: hi
20130423 02:06:29< fendrin> vultraz: What is the story behind your new avatar?
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20130423 03:39:36< vultraz> fendrin: it's a sprite me, Zerovirus, and Jetrel worked on 
20130423 03:46:12< vultraz> fendrin: I made a franky, which Zero then made a rough sprite on, I filled in the final shading, outlines, etc, and Jetrel provided tips and did part of the robe shading
20130423 03:47:34< fendrin> vultraz: Fine, what is the character doing in your campaign?
20130423 03:49:34< vultraz> The scenarios with him are yet-unwritten., but he's supposed to be a doppelganger of a necromancer who was disguising himself as a doppelganger of the King 
20130423 03:50:24< fendrin> uh
20130423 03:50:43< fendrin> complicated
20130423 03:51:11< fendrin> vultraz: Sounds like "The Great Dictator" from Chaplin.
20130423 03:51:35< fendrin> vultraz: Only with one layer doppelgängerism more.
20130423 03:52:04< vultraz> That's only half as complicated as the whole plot :)
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20130423 05:55:29< kelpy> mattsc: you made the easy coding page right?
20130423 05:55:39< kelpy> or, updated it rather
20130423 05:55:52< mattsc> kelpy: updated: yes; made: no
20130423 05:56:20< mattsc> So I don't necessarily know what's involved with all the tasks  :|
20130423 05:56:27< kelpy> mattsc: do you now anything about the village name generator?
20130423 05:56:52< mattsc> No, unfortunately, I don't.  I saw your question earlier, but don't know the answer.
20130423 05:57:09< mattsc> kelpy: a few days ago you asked another question about that and somebody replied, right?
20130423 05:57:20< mattsc> Who was that, zookeeper?
20130423 05:57:43< kelpy> lemme read logs
20130423 05:58:13< mattsc> I suggest that you ping that person by using the nick in your message.
20130423 05:58:31< mattsc> There was a lot of traffic on the channel today and it's easy to miss a message in the middle of all of that.
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20130423 06:09:01< kelpy> shadowm: do you know anything about the village naming task?
20130423 06:09:24< _8680_> kelpy: I think he’s too busy currently.
20130423 06:09:49< _8680_> But your questions will certainly be answered.
20130423 06:10:05< mattsc> kelpy: zookeeper might be a good person to ask as well (even if he wasn't the one who answered previously)
20130423 06:10:44< shadowm> kelpy: No.
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20130423 08:53:30< Soliton> kelpy: if you don't get an answer on such a general question be more specific. for example you can 1) provide links for easier context on what you're talking about 2) mention what you figured out so far 3) explain where exactly you're stuck now (maybe showing some code etc) and what you need help with.
20130423 08:54:16< kelpy> Soliton: thanks for the advice
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20130423 08:55:01< kelpy> Ive so far discovered that the village name generator actually does name villages after mountains
20130423 08:55:19< kelpy> and other requested terrain features.
20130423 08:55:41< kelpy> however, it does this only when adjacent to a named terrain feature
20130423 08:56:01< kelpy> so naming a village after a mountain or a bridge is exceedingly rare, but still happens
20130423 08:56:48< kelpy> should I extend this so that villages can be named after mountains that are 1-2 hexes away? or the closest peak in a given mountain range?
20130423 08:56:56< kelpy> and also
20130423 08:57:12< kelpy> I do not now what a $name2 variable would accomplish.
20130423 08:57:53< kelpy> should villages like "seds'corkport" be viable?
20130423 08:58:01< kelpy> and that is what I have so far.
20130423 08:58:07< kelpy> any help is great
20130423 09:05:55< Soliton> naming villages after a terrain feature 1-2 hexes away sounds good.
20130423 09:07:44< Soliton> i still have no idea what a $name2 variable references or what i should get from "sed's corkport" as a village name.
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20130423 09:29:31< kelpy> Soliton; the third bullet point in this project is to add in a '$name2' variable
20130423 09:29:47< kelpy> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#More_powerful_village_naming
20130423 09:30:09< kelpy> and Ill do that, thanks for the help :)
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20130423 10:01:09< trademark_> AI0867, in the changes of the wescamp server, I noticed that you would like to merge the add-on server and wescamp ? Can you tell me more about that please ?
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20130423 11:04:55< thunderstruck> Crab_, hi. I spoke with fendrin yesterday and he told me that many of the problems with MP support is due to different codepaths between MP and SP.
20130423 11:05:29< Crab_> thunderstruck: not always, but sometimes, yes.
20130423 11:05:39< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. MP having extra code is ok. 
20130423 11:06:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, we've also thought that unifying those codepaths would make easier to improve MP campaign support.
20130423 11:06:29< thunderstruck> Crab_, although that might be out of project's scope.
20130423 11:06:45< Crab_> it's in the project scope - but note that not all the codepaths should be changed.
20130423 11:07:01< Crab_> thunderstruck: most important things are things that happen before scenario starts or after scenario ends
20130423 11:07:11< Crab_> having different play controllers in-game  is ok
20130423 11:07:31< Crab_> e.g. "loading data in correct difficulty level" is something you'd need to do both in SP and MP.
20130423 11:08:05< thunderstruck> Crab_, fendrin mentioned that there are some things which breaks SP if changed for MP.
20130423 11:08:22< thunderstruck> Crab_, he wasn't specific though and I haven't investigated them yet.
20130423 11:08:34< thunderstruck> Crab_, but I think that should be worth unifying.
20130423 11:09:21< thunderstruck> Crab_, but before putting my effort into it, I thought that is good to ask you.
20130423 11:09:31< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's not worth unifying for unification's sake
20130423 11:10:06< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's worth unifying the flow where you need to solve the same problem (even if you'd use different strategies to solve it)
20130423 11:10:56< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. there's a process of re-parsing the config with proper difficulty levels and campaign define, and reloading of images with new binary paths.
20130423 11:11:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: we would need to do that both in MP and SP, so we'll need to extract this functionality to some 'manager object' that would be used both in MP and SP.
20130423 11:14:00< Crab_> thunderstruck: but there's little need to mess with different code paths that are in-game (playmp_controller, playsingle_controller, etc) they work, and we don't need anything else from them.
20130423 11:16:42< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. I was also wondering how should I take care of so called old syntax for MP campaigns.
20130423 11:17:06< thunderstruck> Crab_, it seems that e.g. creating some 'manager object' would affect it.
20130423 11:17:39< Crab_> thunderstruck: best if you still support the old syntax (automatically upgrading it to new syntax at load time, for example)
20130423 11:17:51< Crab_> e.g. if there's no MP campaign definition, treat it just as MP scenario.
20130423 11:18:05< Crab_> if it happens to be a MP campaign implemented as a set of scenarios, who cares.
20130423 11:19:32< thunderstruck> Crab_, yeah, that would solve supporting problems.
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20130423 11:19:45< thunderstruck> Crab_, if I figure out how to convert it, of course.
20130423 11:22:13< thunderstruck> Crab_, another thing which was on my mind, was if this whole project should be implemented gradually to the Wesnoth's dev version or should it be implemented once it is finished?
20130423 11:22:28< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's best if you work directly on dev version
20130423 11:23:04< thunderstruck> Crab_, so my all milestones should be made so that they won't reduce overall quality of MP?
20130423 11:23:13< Crab_> exactly
20130423 11:23:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: that would make things more fun
20130423 11:23:28< trademark_> mordante, do you think a master password is needed for the addon server ? Meaning that an admin has remote control on the server (restart/maintenance mode/delete UMC/...).
20130423 11:23:36< thunderstruck> Crab_, ha ha. Or that would make big milestones :)
20130423 11:23:50< Crab_> thunderstruck: commit ==  milestone
20130423 11:24:17< Crab_> thunderstruck: and as it's best to keep commits small, you should be ready to make sure you don't break things much
20130423 11:24:23< Crab_> it's ok if you do break things from time to time
20130423 11:24:29< Crab_> but you should aim not to.
20130423 11:26:56< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. To summarize what we've talked about: carefully identify parts which are worth unifying and plan milestones so that things break as little as possible.
20130423 11:27:38< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'm still not fully awake, so I'm trying not to miss anything :)
20130423 11:27:42< Crab_> thunderstruck: and don't plan all your time.
20130423 11:27:51< Crab_> thunderstruck: leave like 50% space empty
20130423 11:28:10< Crab_> thunderstruck: you'll find additional things to do pretty easily. so don't plan too much.
20130423 11:29:09< Crab_> thunderstruck: for example, you might had not known about the issue with resources loaded from binary paths before - but you'll need to make sure they're refreshed properly.
20130423 11:29:52< thunderstruck> Crab_, yeah, everyday I get to know of some obstacles for this project.
20130423 11:30:48< thunderstruck> Crab_, so I should just leave half of my timeline basically empty?
20130423 11:31:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, 'cause I've looked at the past proposals and haven't noticed anything like that.
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20130423 11:35:50< Zazweda> hey
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20130423 11:37:00< Zazweda> Crab_: About the zone guard thing, I'm not sure I understand the evaluation returns. It helps to chose between the CAs right ?
20130423 11:46:07< AI0867> trademark_: I think I already described this a few days ago? (by one of various methods, get the MO files from wescamp when a client downloads an add-on)
20130423 11:47:37< trademark_> AI0867, I'm sorry, if you did it by private message I was disconnected because the only sentence I get is "Aaah" or something like that.
20130423 11:48:11< AI0867> let me grep my logs
20130423 11:48:19< trademark_> AI0867, thanks :-)
20130423 11:48:28< AI0867> 22:23 <AI0867> the 'download' function is a never-actually-implemented feature of wescamp.py where it uploads the compiled catalogues (MO) to the add-on server
20130423 11:48:32< AI0867> 22:23 <AI0867> so "integrate into add-on server" would be one of the following:
20130423 11:48:35< AI0867> 22:24 <AI0867> -have the wesnoth client pull the MO files from wescamp when downloading add-ons
20130423 11:48:38< AI0867> 22:24 <AI0867> -have the add-on server pull in the MO files from wescamp when a client downloads an add-on
20130423 11:48:42< AI0867> 22:24 <AI0867> -update the add-on on wesnoth.org every time it's updated on github
20130423 11:48:45< AI0867> 22:24 <AI0867> I may have made a decision on that in the past, but I can't remember it right now
20130423 11:49:02< AI0867> other methods not described here might also be possibble
20130423 11:49:06< AI0867> s/bb/b/
20130423 11:54:07< trademark_> in a previous discussion with mordante, we thought that the add-on server would keep a local copy of the translation files (po and mo ?) and keep them in sync, meaning that the wescamp.py notice the add-on server when update occurs.
20130423 11:55:50< trademark_> let it be clear, there are ONE entry points to update a translatable content, and this is via wesnoth.org ? When the user decide to update a translatable content, he "ask" wescamp.py that retreive it from github and send it to the user ?
20130423 11:55:59< trademark_> s/points/point
20130423 11:56:47< trademark_> well, my question is not clear, let me rewrite it.
20130423 12:01:57< trademark_> First, correct me if I'm wrong: mo/po files (translatable related files) are stored on github. Note (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesCamp) link to github all redirect me to the home page of github.
20130423 12:03:27< trademark_> okay, I finally found https://github.com/wescamp links broken in the introduction ? lead to https://github.com/organizations/wescamp instead of https://github.com/wescamp
20130423 12:03:56< Crab_> thunderstruck: just multiply all your time estimates by 2.
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20130423 12:05:39< trademark_> Woow, I'm confused, do all the addons are stored on github ?
20130423 12:05:57< Crab_> Zazweda: evaluation returns a number, and a CA which returns the highest positive number is selected for execution
20130423 12:06:49< Crab_> Zazweda: imagine a room full of people who want to play wesnoth, and 1 computer. whoever yells "I want to play!" the loudest (highest evaluation value) gets to play for a while (execute, which can do 1 or more actions)
20130423 12:10:01< Zazweda> ok 
20130423 12:10:03< Zazweda> thanks
20130423 12:12:12< Zazweda> Crab_: I have one more question, I added the [filter_location][/filter_location] in this [micro_ai], but it the AI doesn't seems to detect it : http://pastebin.com/vWfdaARU
20130423 12:12:30< Zazweda> is it the way I should create my filter_loc ?
20130423 12:13:18< Crab_> Zazweda: sorry, I don't know for sure without seeing your current lua code as well. mattsc might be able to help.
20130423 12:13:41< Zazweda> k
20130423 12:13:57< Zazweda> I'll ask him then, thanks
20130423 12:26:38-!- LordBob_ [~chatzilla@2a01:e34:ee82:47e0:21e:c2ff:fe01:261f] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130423 12:27:06< LordBob_> fendrin: hi. Got time for some icons info ?
20130423 12:27:09< AI0867> trademark_: when an add-on author marks his add-on as translatable, all that does right now is set the flag
20130423 12:27:19< fendrin> LordBob_: Hi, yes.
20130423 12:27:31< LordBob_> Good
20130423 12:27:33< AI0867> then a wescamp.py run (with the 'upload' function) pushes everything to wescamp
20130423 12:27:37< AI0867> this is done manually
20130423 12:28:18< LordBob_> I've been working on the terrain groups, but I have doubts for the "custom" and "x" terrain groups. What are they for, and do you plan to keep them ?
20130423 12:29:09< trademark_> AI0867, What are the entry points to modify a translatable file ?
20130423 12:29:52< trademark_> AI0867, when you say "pushes everything to wescamp" that means that all the po/mo files are uploaded on github ?
20130423 12:31:40< LordBob_> Fendrin: in addition, I've been wondering how you would like the terrain group icons to appear in the editor. selectable buttons like the palette ?
20130423 12:32:35< fendrin> LordBob_: Those are generic icons for addons which don't provide their own.
20130423 12:33:10< LordBob_> Ok, so better make a clouple of them as well
20130423 12:33:13< fendrin> LordBob_: I have not thought about the exact shape of the group icon frame yet.
20130423 12:33:56< fendrin> LordBob_: Mordante's dialog would work with the palette base frames well.
20130423 12:34:41< fendrin> I guess they work better with a Ribbon like gui interface than conventional buttons.
20130423 12:36:18< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm not sure what you mean by ribbon-like.
20130423 12:36:46< LordBob_> Anyway, what I'm wondering is if we can use them as they are, or if I need to plan a border of sorts for them
20130423 12:37:26< fendrin> LordBob_: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruban_%28informatique%29
20130423 12:38:22< fendrin> LordBob_: I think we can use them like they are, the new dialog will be very much like the palette.
20130423 12:38:23< AI0867> trademark_: it runs wmlxgettext on the add-on and then commits 'everything' (add-on, POT and PO files)
20130423 12:38:33< AI0867> also MO files
20130423 12:38:43< LordBob_> That's great then.
20130423 12:39:03< AI0867> the PO files on wescamp are what translators should use
20130423 12:39:37< trademark_> AI0867, but everything is stored on github ?
20130423 12:39:44< AI0867> yes
20130423 12:39:53< AI0867> see github.com/wescamp/
20130423 12:40:02< AI0867> hundreds of repositories there
20130423 12:40:38< trademark_> I saw this, and I was surprise because I thought that the campaign server locally stored add-on
20130423 12:40:45< AI0867> it does
20130423 12:40:46< LordBob_> Fendrin: not all of them are done yet, but here's the current state of the 30 pix terrain icons : http://imagebin.org/255022
20130423 12:40:50< AI0867> wescamp just has a copy
20130423 12:41:08< AI0867> so you can regenerate everything without having to download it again
20130423 12:41:50< trademark_> why would you like to regenerate it ?
20130423 12:42:26< fendrin> LordBob_: Nice.
20130423 12:42:42< AI0867> eh, the toolchain still isn't all that good yet
20130423 12:42:57< fendrin> LordBob_: Do you have the tool icon images ready for me?
20130423 12:43:24< LordBob_> Fendrin: not yet. Was planning to make them after I'm done with the terrains
20130423 12:43:32< trademark_> AI0867, really, I'm confused on how the things work, which components interact with others. Would you mind to validate/correct a schema on all the interactions (that I would made on what I understood) ?
20130423 12:43:51< LordBob_> Fendrin: but the terrains can wait, if you prefer to try the tools as soon as possible
20130423 12:44:20< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, please. The tools would be more welcomed :-)
20130423 12:45:31< fendrin> LordBob_: I have just activated all the gui elements the final projuct will need.
20130423 12:46:05< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'll do it, then. and while i'm at it, propose a naming convention for all GUI elements
20130423 12:47:46< LordBob_> Fendrin: following your advice I was thinking of storing each element (square button, radio button, ...) in a separate folder, then name the files with the following convention
20130423 12:48:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: [element name]_[optional: element size]-[state]
20130423 12:49:03< fendrin> LordBob_: That convention is fine by me.
20130423 12:49:03< LordBob_> Is it ok, or would you prefer that I apply the same kind of separator everywhere ?
20130423 12:49:23< LordBob_> Perfect.
20130423 12:50:28< LordBob_> fendrin: For multiple-layered elements, I would use [element name]_[optional: component name]_[optional: element size]-[state]
20130423 12:50:47< fendrin> yes
20130423 12:51:47< LordBob_> Ok. I'll write this down somewhere in the wiki (I'd like to do a page with theming guidelines eventually)
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20130423 12:56:54< Zazweda> Crab_: btw, once I'm done with this MAI, do you have anything I could do to prepare for the AIS gsoc ? (defense or recruitment)
20130423 12:57:39< Crab_> Zazweda: you need to have both proposals in the wiki and google's system (you can share questionnaire, and you can reference the wiki from google's proposals)
20130423 12:58:04< Crab_> Zazweda: for recruitment, I'd like to see some kind of 'design plan' of how you expect your recruitment to work.
20130423 12:59:16< Crab_> Zazweda: for defense, it's trickier since it's harder to formulate an exact plan. but at least document the things you'd want to try.
20130423 12:59:37< Zazweda> Any C++ you want me to try ?
20130423 13:02:00< Crab_> Zazweda: I have several not-so-easy tasks for the AI infrastructure, if you're interested.
20130423 13:02:39< Zazweda> well, I am, as long as I can ask for help when i'm stuck ^^"
20130423 13:02:43< Crab_> Zazweda: but, also, we can wait until you get some basic info on the project pages.
20130423 13:02:49< Crab_> Zazweda: you're always welcome to ask for help./
20130423 13:04:20< Zazweda> you mean until I write my ideas on the wiki for the projects ?
20130423 13:04:28< Crab_> Zazweda: yes
20130423 13:04:34< Zazweda> ok
20130423 13:04:44< Crab_> Zazweda: since then I might be able to suggest some project-specific stuff, which would be more interesting.
20130423 13:04:59< Zazweda> sounds good
20130423 13:05:07< Zazweda> I'll try to do this ASAP
20130423 13:05:54< Crab_> Zazweda: please take a look at some proposals from past years, especially from accepted students.
20130423 13:06:13< Crab_> Zazweda: e.g. http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MP_Server_Ilor or mine from 2009 - http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20130423 13:06:50< Zazweda> thanks
20130423 13:07:40< Crab_> Zazweda: that's the end result of numerous improvement rounds, you can start with something simple. the basic idea is the same, leave questionnaire somewhere at the bottom and start adding project-specific stuff at the top, including a list of deliverables and key milestones.
20130423 13:08:03< Zazweda> ok 
20130423 13:10:09< flix1> Crab_: Hi! Can you take a look at my proposal? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Flixx/GSoC_2013/AI:_AI:_Refactor_recruitment_algorithm
20130423 13:10:17< Crab_> flix1: hello
20130423 13:12:47< Crab_> flix1: I love it so far. some suggestions:
20130423 13:13:24< flix1> Crab_: Great, nice to hear this :)
20130423 13:14:08< Crab_> flix1: divide the summer time in 3 parts. Let first two parts be mandatory, third part be optional. Then, you would be able to divide your goals between those parts, and you can have your 'purposes' idea in the third part without having to bet your entire project on it playing out.
20130423 13:15:02< flix1> Carb_: sounds good. I will do it.
20130423 13:15:06< Crab_> flix1: next, expand on 'make it more configurable' part with different examples on how a scenario writer would be able to configure your recruitment (can be some pseudoconfigs or text-based configs)
20130423 13:15:30< Crab_> flix1: it's an important part of the project, and it's possible to decide on it without coding, so it's better to do a first pass now.
20130423 13:16:04< Crab_> flix1: then, for counter-recruitment, note that you have to counter the possible counter-recruitment, as well. e.g. recruit in a way that would make it harder to counter-recruit to you.
20130423 13:16:33< flix1> Crab_: Yes, it can easily end in a dead lock, I know this :)
20130423 13:16:44< Crab_> flix1: e.g. if you recruit units which are weak to mages, it would make sense to recruit some units which are good vs mages, to make sure the opponent won't get a free lunch if he'll recruit some.
20130423 13:17:17< Crab_> flix1: you can officially cheat by looking into opponent's gold and recruit/recall list :)
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20130423 13:17:36< Crab_> flix1: and it's good overall
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20130423 13:17:47< Crab_> flix1: try to create a timeline like in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MP_Server_Ilor
20130423 13:17:59< Crab_> (afk 30 minutes)
20130423 13:18:01< flix1> Crab: ah I inderstood, okay, I have to think of it a while and will write something to it
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20130423 13:18:46< flix1> Crab_: Okay, please write when you are back again, I have some questions :)
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20130423 13:30:33< flix1> Crab_: I thought about your point regarding *Counter-Counter Recruitment*. I think this should not be implemented in the section for Counter-Recruitment, because it's somehow a completely different approach then just *waiting for the enemy to recruit*. Instead it should be implemented along with the part where the AI tries to recruit rare units (I called it "diversity"). There it could consider also the enemies recruiting-list and try to recruit units so t
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20130423 13:58:10< Crab_> flix1:back. About counter-recruitment...  I'd say 'recruiting nothing' is a special case of 'recruiting in a way that would make it easier to counter your enemy current and potential units, and that would make it harder for the enemy to counter'. So, both are usable as counter-recruiting strategies.
20130423 13:58:55< Crab_> flix1: on a higher level, it's a problem that unit's efficiency depends on map, your units on map, enemy units on map, and potential your and enemy units on map.
20130423 14:00:40< Crab_> flix1: and diversity is slightly more than that. Sometimes some unit is just bad, but we still want to see it on the field just to show off it's graphics :)
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20130423 14:03:39< Crab_> flix1: it happens when scenario designer thinks 'I gave the AI this unit, so I want the AI to recruit it, at least a bit, because I think it's either fun or useful.'
20130423 14:03:56< flix1> Crab_: Yes I understand. But I think still *recruiting nothing to wait* and *recruiting a good mix so the enemy can not counter easily* are two completely different thinks when implementing this. Although both have to with Counter Recruitment Strategies.
20130423 14:04:25< Crab_> flix1: Well, nothing is a 'special case' of good mix :)
20130423 14:04:35< Crab_> flix1: but I agree, it can be described separately
20130423 14:05:15< flix1> Crab_: I agree that *diversity for more fun* and *a good mix for the fight* are two different things too
20130423 14:05:34< flix1> Crab_: I will mention it somewhere in the proposal
20130423 14:06:09< Crab_> flix1: scenario designer needs a good documentation (be sure to plan for good documentation :) ) that would say "if your AI is not recruiting X, but you really want it to do so, add Y to your scenario config and it'll start recruit a bit of X"
20130423 14:06:54< Crab_> because nowadays they use hacks to get it done (e.g., one of the ways to do it - AI recruits Z instead of X, so scenario author tells the AI "hey, no more than 3 Z's", trying to make it recruit X instead. )
20130423 14:07:12< flix1> Crab_: Okay, I will plan to make a documentation!
20130423 14:07:42< Crab_> flix1: note that good documentation can help writing code (if you go basic docs first, then code, then polishing the docs)
20130423 14:07:55< Crab_> flix1: since you'll have a 'guide' of what you want done
20130423 14:08:56< flix1> Crab_: Yes I completely agree. So maybe I should even plan the documentation early in the timeline.
20130423 14:09:20< Crab_> flix1: note that your project page would serve as documentation, as well
20130423 14:09:56< flix1> Crab_: okay, I still have some other questions:
20130423 14:11:04< flix1> can you read what I wrote on http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Flixx/GSoC_2013/Questionnaire under point 1.7) please?
20130423 14:11:15< flix1> and say if could become a problem?
20130423 14:11:57< Crab_> flix1: In, general, in GSoC you have 4 months to do a 3-months project
20130423 14:12:20< Crab_> flix1: so, if you have 2 weeks of unavailability, you'll be able to counter it by starting early, without any major problems.
20130423 14:12:53< Crab_> flix1: (and there's even a 5th month if you take the application period into consideration)
20130423 14:13:11< Crab_> flix1: so, several weeks of time-off is ok. especially since the dates are shifted this year.
20130423 14:14:14< Crab_> flix1: August 2: - 19:00 UTC - Mid-term evaluations deadline; - it's usually good to have several uninterrupted weeks before midterm, just in case you'll have to finish some important stuff to feel good about your progress.
20130423 14:14:52< Crab_> flix1: so just use the application period time well, and you'll have a good start (if you're accepted)
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20130423 14:15:44< flix1> Crab_: Sounds good for me! I hope Google will not have any problems with it because i'm don't know if I can officially work in Jordan with my current visa and on the official start for coding  (16/06) I'm still here! 
20130423 14:17:02< flix1> Crab_: But on the other hand Google may not even ask or notice this.
20130423 14:18:22< Crab_> flix1: Google FAQ says "You must also be eligible to work in the country in which you'll reside throughout the duration of the program". I'd say that if you'll be back to Germany for the majority of the coding time, all's ok.
20130423 14:18:37< flix1> fine :)
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20130423 14:19:13< flix1> Crab_: just 3 more questions (thank you for answering ;) ):
20130423 14:19:29< flix1>  Did you have a special separation of my goals in mind when you said "divide the summer time in 3 parts" or is 3 just a good number for SoC Milestones?
20130423 14:20:48< Crab_> flix1: 3 is just a good number, because if things would go wrong, milestone 1 would be finished before the midterm, milestone 2 would be finished before the end of the project, and milestone 3 would be not finished.
20130423 14:21:02< flix1> okay, great
20130423 14:21:21< Crab_> flix1: and if things go right, all would be better. so, 3 milestones give some more space in case things go wrong.
20130423 14:21:51< flix1> Crab_: okay
20130423 14:22:12< flix1> Crab_: Next: Are there some policies for AI-Cheating? What does the AI actually know? Can I figure it out somewhere (e.g. by looking in the contexts.*pp)
20130423 14:22:41< Crab_> flix1: AI knows all the game state (we don't bother with fog in most cases, but in a few cases we won't notice targets in fog)
20130423 14:23:00< Crab_> flix1: but AI must not change the game state in ways that human cannot (that would be a source of out-of-sync MP errors)
20130423 14:24:01< flix1> Crab_: I understood, so it's perfectly okay to work with all the knowledge of a game-state (so no policies)?
20130423 14:24:52< flix1> Crab_:( it sounds reasonable for me )
20130423 14:25:19< Crab_> flix1: no policies except "don't change"
20130423 14:25:25< flix1> fine
20130423 14:25:59< flix1> Crab_: and last but not least: I want to write a backup proposal for "Improve configuration and behavior in mainline campaigns". Do you think this is a good idea or should I stick to one proposal?
20130423 14:26:12< Crab_> flix1: e.g. there're a functions to recruit a particular unit in src/ai/context.cpp (which call functions in src/ai/actions.cpp ) but those have a lot of checks (see src/ai/actions.cpp ) to be sure AI is not doing anything illegal to the game state.
20130423 14:26:40< Crab_> flix1: In your particular case, I'd say "stick to one".
20130423 14:27:09< Crab_> flix1: unless you decide that you want the other one more :)
20130423 14:28:08< flix1> Crab_: fair enough! (No I like the recruiting idea more). Thank you so far, I will now improve my proposal and later have a look on this Coding Task you gave me yesterday ;)
20130423 14:29:01< Crab_> flix1: ok, good luck, then. and don't forget that you must submit a proposal to google melange as well.
20130423 14:29:09< Crab_> (you can just link to wiki from google's proposal)
20130423 14:29:53< Crab_> May 3 19:00 UTC - Student application deadline. - any student who hasn't submitted a proposal to Google by this time has NO chances of getting in. 
20130423 14:30:10< Crab_> since we can only select students from the list in Google's system.
20130423 14:31:35< flix1> Crab_: ah, yes, another one: Can I remix the Questionnaire? I don't like that the Project description and the rest will be mixed up. (So I want so remove all questions from the Questionnaire regarding the Project and answer them elsewhere)
20130423 14:32:13< flix1> Crab_: I will do it over the next days, thanks
20130423 14:32:30< Crab_> flix1: it's ok to remove project description from the questionnaire.
20130423 14:32:47< flix1> Crab_: okay
20130423 14:32:49< Crab_> flix1: usually it's "questionnaire at the bottom, project stuff at the top"
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20130423 14:36:49< Zazweda> Crab_: The total defense algorithm would be basically trying to think in the way of "if I put this there, he can't move this, so can't kill this", meaning that it would use a more general strategy to defend "key" units 
20130423 14:37:04< Zazweda> ?
20130423 14:37:16< Crab_> Zazweda: might be. The main idea is to make an AI which can do better than current AI, by adding 2-3 simple things that would make it defend better. It would be tested both against AI and against human players.
20130423 14:37:34< Crab_> Zazweda: your application should list 5-6 main things you would try to do (with the understanding that 2-3 would fail or will not be useful).
20130423 14:38:22< Crab_> Zazweda: some of the possible things-to-do are more 'research-like', some of the things are not research-like (e.g. require just coding - refactor attack ratings to make it possible to change the rating system for attacks 'on the fly')
20130423 14:39:01< Zazweda> mhm
20130423 14:39:43< AI0867> 12:43 < trademark_> AI0867, really, I'm confused on how the things work, which components interact with others. Would you mind to validate/correct a schema on all the  interactions (that I would made on what I understood) ? <-- sure
20130423 14:40:03< Zazweda> So the current AI is evaluating through (enemyloss -aggression*ownloss) and that's it ?
20130423 14:42:32< Crab_> Zazweda: it's more than that, but that's the main formula  ( chance_to_kill*target_value - avg_losses*(1.0-aggression); )
20130423 14:42:56< Crab_> Zazweda: src/ai/default/attack.cpp
20130423 14:43:00< Zazweda> thas
20130423 14:43:03< Zazweda> thanks
20130423 14:43:25< Crab_> Zazweda: it would be very nice if there was an easy way to 'switch' the formula (but it needs to be reasonably fast)
20130423 14:45:41< Zazweda> Crab_: mhm
20130423 14:46:45< Crab_> Zazweda: e.g. if you code a second cool formula for rating attacks, you'll need to test AI1 (with current formula) vs AI2 (using your formula)
20130423 14:46:57< Crab_> Zazweda: and for that you'll somehow need to specify the formula that the AI would use.
20130423 14:47:49< Crab_> Zazweda: also note that the rating of attacks is two-step process (see src/ai/testing/aspect_attacks.cpp and see attack_analysis class)
20130423 14:48:39< Zazweda> the current formula is much more complicated ! It takes into accounts the unit xp, the poison and stuff like that, right ?
20130423 14:50:52< Crab_> Zazweda: yes, a lot of stuff.
20130423 14:51:04< Zazweda> Crab_: but I don't see the enemy xp into account
20130423 14:51:06< Zazweda> for exemple
20130423 14:51:23< Zazweda> (might have miss a part of code)
20130423 14:51:45< Crab_> Zazweda: target_value = defend_it->cost(); target_value += (double(defend_it->experience())/ double(defend_it->max_experience()))*target_value;
20130423 14:52:09< Crab_> Zazweda: in attack_analysis::analyze in src/ai/default/attack.cpp
20130423 14:52:49< Zazweda> wasn't looking in the right part ^^"
20130423 14:52:51< Zazweda> thanks
20130423 14:53:17< Crab_> Zazweda: those are  important files for the project, since they determine the attacks that are done by the AI.
20130423 14:53:31< Zazweda> yep
20130423 14:54:03< Zazweda> I'm trying to understand what's taken into account by the time the AI has to move to attack
20130423 14:55:39< Crab_> (going afk for at least an hour, maybe will be back today)
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20130423 15:26:26< mattsc> Hi Zazweda 
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20130423 15:29:23< mattsc> Zazweda: [zone_goals] _is_ the location filter.  So the place to include the [filter_location] tag is in the Lua code where you filter for the enemies, not in the WML.
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20130423 15:42:52< Zazweda> mattsc: hi, ok let me see
20130423 15:43:23< mattsc> Zazweda: do you understand why you need it?  (just making sure)
20130423 15:43:38< Zazweda> to specify it's not a simple filter ?
20130423 15:43:49< mattsc> Also, the syntax with all the {} can be confusing
20130423 15:44:13< mattsc> I mean, why it does work for finding the hexes to move to, but not the enemies in your current version.
20130423 15:44:32< Zazweda> ?
20130423 15:44:58< mattsc> Did you test it with the third ZG I added to the scenario?
20130423 15:45:14< Zazweda> ye
20130423 15:45:16< Zazweda> yep
20130423 15:45:43< Zazweda> it also leaves the water if I don't come clos
20130423 15:45:45< Zazweda> close
20130423 15:45:51< mattsc> You can see that it only moves on water hexes (as it should), but also attacks hexes outside the water.
20130423 15:45:54< mattsc> It does?
20130423 15:45:57< Zazweda> it's juste that the naga prefer water
20130423 15:46:02< Zazweda> it looks like that
20130423 15:46:21< mattsc> It did not when I tested it.  Let me check again ...
20130423 15:46:29< Zazweda> (might be my modifications)
20130423 15:46:47< mattsc> yes, with the changes you made that would happen.
20130423 15:47:15< mattsc> So, let's just take a step back.
20130423 15:47:43< mattsc> When you check for hexes to move to, you use wesnoth.get_locations, and that takes an SLF, so you're good.
20130423 15:47:51< Zazweda> ok
20130423 15:48:01< mattsc> In your original version, I mean, as that was a SLF  (the content of an SLF)
20130423 15:48:22< Zazweda> yes 
20130423 15:48:30< Zazweda> oh
20130423 15:48:32< mattsc> But when you use an SUF, then you need to put the SLF content into [filter_location] inside the SUF.
20130423 15:49:00< mattsc> (except when the SLF is just x,y=, then it can be included directly, that's why it worked for your ZGs)
20130423 15:49:21< Zazweda> { "and", [filter_location]cfg.zone_enemy[filter_location] }
20130423 15:49:27< Zazweda> it should look like that?
20130423 15:49:56< mattsc> almost
20130423 15:50:13< Zazweda> with the /
20130423 15:50:32< mattsc> { " and", { "filter_location", cfg.zone_enemy } }
20130423 15:50:40< Zazweda> damn
20130423 15:50:42< Zazweda> ok
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20130423 15:51:00< mattsc> actually, no, there's another pair of {} needed.  However ...
20130423 15:51:26< mattsc> Since this is the sole content of your SLF, you don't need the end and this suffices:
20130423 15:51:39< mattsc> { "filter_location", cfg.zone_enemy }
20130423 15:51:51< mattsc> s/end/and
20130423 15:52:20< Zazweda> ok
20130423 15:52:29< Zazweda> if I needed a and it would be like : 
20130423 15:52:31< Zazweda> { "and", {"filter_location",cfg.zone_enemy} }
20130423 15:52:33< Zazweda> ?
20130423 15:52:57< mattsc> { " and", { {  "filter_location", cfg.zone_enemy } } }
20130423 15:53:09< Zazweda> hu, o
20130423 15:53:11< Zazweda> ok
20130423 15:53:23< mattsc> I think, I always confuse myself with that also.  :)  But Lua will complain about that one if you don't do it right.
20130423 15:53:42 * vultraz wonders whythe extra {} are needed
20130423 15:53:54 * Zazweda too
20130423 15:54:06< mattsc> A WML tag is coded in Lua as { "tag", { keys = ... } }
20130423 15:54:19< Zazweda> ok
20130423 15:54:21< mattsc> Here, you have two tags, the outer one is:
20130423 15:54:30< mattsc> { "and", { X } }
20130423 15:54:43< mattsc> For x, you add the "filter_location"  tag
20130423 15:55:02< mattsc> you don't need {} around cfg.zone_enemy, because that variable contains them already.
20130423 15:55:36< mattsc> So the extra { } tells lua that filter_location is a tag, not a key.
20130423 15:57:14< mattsc> Zazweda: I saw you asked Crab_ about the evaluation scores.  Does that make sense now?  Well, the question I should ask is: do you understand why the return guardians use two different eval scores?
20130423 15:57:24< mattsc> If you understand that, you'll know what you need to do here.
20130423 15:59:56< Zazweda> mattsc: (the filter looks good now thanks :) )
20130423 16:00:57< Zazweda> mattsc: yes, because it has 2 states according to the position, in one it doesn't have to move, only attack, on the other he has to go back "home"
20130423 16:01:04< Zazweda> is that correct ?
20130423 16:01:56< mattsc> yes, pretty much.  The score of the default RCA attack CA is 100,000.
20130423 16:01:59< faabumc> wesbot, seen ayne
20130423 16:01:59< wesbot> faabumc: The person with the nick Ayne 20d 1h ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving
20130423 16:02:19< Zazweda> mattsc: So I only need to return smthing above 100 000
20130423 16:02:19< mattsc> So if we set the go_home score to 100,010, the AI will do that, before attacking (after which it cannot attack any more)
20130423 16:02:41< mattsc> Zazweda: yes
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20130423 16:03:14< mattsc> If we set it to 99,990, the unit will attack if it can, or go home afterward if not.
20130423 16:03:44< mattsc> For your AI code, you really don't need anything like that, I think.
20130423 16:04:00< Zazweda> ok that's what I understood ^^" . I was leaving when you highlighted me, so I will be back a little later, thanks for the help, I will commit it when I come back ^^"
20130423 16:04:08< Zazweda> see you later
20130423 16:04:11< mattsc> So you just the the eval score to one number that is higher than any of the default AI scores.
20130423 16:04:16< mattsc> cheers.
20130423 16:04:25< Zazweda> I use 100 010 for now
20130423 16:04:26< Zazweda> \o
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20130423 17:10:03< PL_kolek> Can anyone confirm that South Guard 06b-Long March gives Lua error?
20130423 17:25:33< mattsc> PL_kolek: if you just skip into the scenario, yes, it does and it comes from the {store_locations] tags.  However, you have to be careful with that.  The tags might be using information that was set in a previous scenario.
20130423 17:26:06< mattsc> To be sure whether this really is a problem, you have to play through the campaign up to this point.
20130423 17:27:55< mattsc> ... and I don't have a recent playthrough of the campaign available.
20130423 17:31:23< PL_kolek> oh, ok. That might be the cause
20130423 17:31:57< PL_kolek> mattsc, I jumped into this scenario from the first one :P
20130423 17:33:21< LordBob_>  fendrin: icons and buttons are done
20130423 17:33:35< LordBob_> fendrin: I'm sending the full pack to you via the forum
20130423 17:37:39< flix1> Maybe someone can help me with this: Why is there a recruiting list for either the team and each leader? Is the recruiting list of a team always a union of all leader-recruiting-lists? Isn't it somehow redundant? (I try to plan how I would implement a multiple leader support for the ai)
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20130423 17:41:57< mattsc> flix1: not 100% sure, but mostly likely because of this:
20130423 17:41:59< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML#.5Ballow_extra_recruit.5D
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20130423 17:51:47< flix1> mattsc: Okay, thanks. But IMHO it would be cleaner if there is nothing like a side-wide recruiting list but only one for each leader. (the [allow_recruit] could just effect all leaders then...).  I will ask Crab_ about this later...
20130423 17:53:46< mattsc> flix1: sure, handling it internally like that in the recruiting code is probably ok, as long as scenario designers have the option of setting both in WML.
20130423 17:54:05< flix1> mattsc: exactly!
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20130423 17:58:13< flix1> mattsc: and how is it now? Can there be a unit in the side-wide recruiting list which cannot be recruited by a leader, or - the other way round - could a leader recruit a unit which is not in the side-wide recruiting list?
20130423 17:59:49< mattsc> flix1: I have not used it myself, but my interpretation of [allow_extra_recruit]  and [disallow_extra_recruit] is that the answer is 'yes' to both parts.
20130423 18:01:14< flix1> mattsc: I was afraid of this, but thanks :)
20130423 18:02:57< mattsc> flix1: the reason for this is that there are campaigns which have changing leaders for a side.  And for some of them, there is a base set of units all leaders can recruit, but certain leaders can also recruit additional units (e.g. the Necromancer can also summon undead)
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20130423 18:03:33< mattsc> ... while he might not be able to convince the ... elves or whatever to follow him.
20130423 18:04:17< mattsc> So this is set up as a convenience to the campaign author, so that it isn't necessary to change the recruit list every time leadership changes.
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20130423 18:05:18< flix1> mattsc: I see it makes sense...
20130423 18:08:09< mattsc> flix1: actually, an even more important use case is a human-controlled side which has two different leaders on different keeps at the same time.  Any other way of making them be able to recruit different unit types would be rather hacky.
20130423 18:08:12< flix1> btw: It seems that right now the RCA AI only uses the side-wide list.
20130423 18:08:37< mattsc> flix1: ok, I don't know about that so I'll take your word for it.  :)
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20130423 18:12:12< flix1> mattsc: Your examples have been helpful. Now I see that side-wide recruiting lists can be of some use when you want to make life easy for a scenario editor... (but it makes harder for the multiple leader AI ;) )
20130423 18:12:33< flix1> mattsc: have to go now, thank you!
20130423 18:12:56< mattsc> flix1: Okay, glad I could help.  Bye.
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20130423 18:17:54< Shofixti> Greetings
20130423 18:21:52< mattsc> Hi Shofixti 
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20130423 18:31:13< Shofixti> I just found out today that you guys were a participant in GSOC, that's downright exciting!
20130423 18:31:33< Shofixti> Figured I'd stop by here and say hello
20130423 18:33:21< Shofixti> I've been playing Wesnoth forever, and was generally interested in GSOC, so when I saw your name in the list of participants I was on board to give it an application a shot
20130423 18:33:38< Shofixti> to give an application a shot*
20130423 18:35:35< mattsc> Shofixti: great, and good luck with your application.  You might want to start by reading the IRC logs of this channel for the last week or so.  GSoC has been discussed quite a bit.
20130423 18:36:05< Shofixti> I'll do just that, thanks!
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20130423 19:02:16< LordBob_> fendrin: and in addition to the tools, I've fixed the UI backgrounds and created a png version
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20130423 19:36:58< Zazweda> mattsc: forgot to tell you, I updated my ideas on my page, any opinion avout it ?
20130423 19:37:00< Zazweda> about*
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20130423 19:39:37< mattsc> Zazweda: thx, will check it out later, can't right now
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20130423 20:30:10< vinipsmaker> guys, do you know/like ldap? think it can be used to unify login in forums/server/...?
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20130423 20:39:01< skyfaller> Zazweda: not sure if you're aware of #wesnoth-umc-dev, you might want to follow our discussions of Wesnoth-AI-Demos there, even though it's better for you to discuss things in this channel as a GSoC applicant
20130423 20:42:32< Zazweda> ok I'll try to follow it too :)
20130423 20:43:25< Zazweda> shadowm: Btw, is it possible to mark me as Gsoc applicant on the forum ?
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20130423 21:41:23< fendrin> LordBob_: hiho
20130423 21:41:45< LordBob_> Hi fendrin
20130423 21:42:19< fendrin> LordBob_: I have produced a low resolution variant, using the 25px buttons.
20130423 21:42:41< LordBob_> \o/
20130423 21:42:50 * LordBob_ rejoyces
20130423 21:44:30< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm working on some textures right now, but I wanted to check what you will need next
20130423 21:45:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Backgrounds for the low resolution version.
20130423 21:45:51< LordBob_> So, 800*480 ?
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20130423 21:46:32< LordBob_> Do the 30 pixels icons work with the 25 pix buttons, btw ?
20130423 21:48:15< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I do not scale them.
20130423 21:48:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus they are cropped. I would call them broken.
20130423 21:49:08< LordBob_> Ah. More icons for me to create, then
20130423 21:50:50< LordBob_> Fendrin: Do you only need the tools icons in 25, or are there others that I should clone as well while I'm at it ?
20130423 21:51:53< fendrin> LordBob_: hmmm
20130423 21:52:48< LordBob_> Fendrin: is there really this much of a gain in space with the 25 pix buttons compared to the 30 ones, though ? I was kinda hoping we could establish the 30 ones as new standard and not make a new set for low resolutions :/
20130423 21:53:50< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes there is.
20130423 21:54:29< fendrin> LordBob_: But we can go and just scale them.
20130423 21:54:49< vultraz> LordBob_: off topic, but is that how they spell rejoices in france?
20130423 21:54:49< fendrin> LordBob_: I don't care much about the very low resolutions. 
20130423 21:55:17< LordBob_> Fendrin: Give it a try, but suspect it won't be prretty
20130423 21:55:33< fendrin> LordBob_: :-)
20130423 21:56:06< LordBob_> Vultraz: I fear this is how I mispell it ^^;;;
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20130423 21:57:52< mattsc> Zazweda: Unfortunately, I probably won't have any time for Wesnoth any more today, even in the evening.  Tuesdays are always really busy.
20130423 21:59:05< mattsc> Zazweda: I suggest you move on to whatever is next for you; the zone guardian code looks good in general and I expect that if anything further is needed, it will be minor.  I'll get back to you tomorrow or Thu.
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20130423 22:29:27< Zazweda> mattsc: ok thanks, for now what's next is a campaign :p
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20130423 23:09:08< midNightPhoenix> hey guys, how should i work towards understanding the ai of wesnoth? especially if i wish to modify the algorithm?
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20130423 23:25:33< _Coffee> midNightPhoenix: have you played much wesnoth against AI?
20130423 23:25:59< _Coffee> you can get a good feel of the AI by playing against it
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20130423 23:26:21< _Coffee> and the new variations in trunk and AI_Modification_Demos addon
20130423 23:26:34< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee i have finished all the beginner scenarios in medium difficulty
20130423 23:26:46< _Coffee> multiplayer is probably better I think
20130423 23:26:50< _Coffee> against AI
20130423 23:27:08< _Coffee> you can choose the regular RCA_AI or the new ones
20130423 23:27:13< _Coffee> which are different
20130423 23:27:16< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee: i have played like 10 or so games against AI in multiplayer
20130423 23:27:32< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee: I use RCA_AI
20130423 23:27:33< _Coffee> have you played with some of the new AI (called Experimental AI)?
20130423 23:27:41< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee: no
20130423 23:27:43< _Coffee> this is where the focus seems to be (I believe)
20130423 23:27:51< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee: cant find the option!!
20130423 23:27:57< _Coffee> it has different behaviour
20130423 23:28:05< _Coffee> try going to addons
20130423 23:28:11< zookeeper> alarantalara, is it ok to add you to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_People_to_bug_on_IRC#zookeeper_or_Mythological_or_Rhuvaen ? i need to remove myth and rhuvaen since they're long gone, and it'd be nice to have some other people listed there...
20130423 23:28:12< _Coffee> and installing the AI modifications
20130423 23:28:59< _Coffee> although I am not involved in the devlopment I would start there to get a feel first
20130423 23:28:59< midNightPhoenix> _Coffee: i use the slightly older version of wesnoth source code
20130423 23:29:12< _Coffee> that is fine
20130423 23:29:24< _Coffee> as far as I can tell it is all in the addon (LUA code)
20130423 23:30:02< mattsc> skyfaller: Could you help out with this ^ ?  I really don't have time right now.
20130423 23:30:17< Espreon> ("Lua"(
20130423 23:30:19-!- Alarantalara [~Adium@CPEc0c1c09e8055-CM00252eac6d62.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130423 23:30:19< Espreon> *)
20130423 23:30:24< _Coffee> lol
20130423 23:30:31< mattsc> or Alarantalara ^
20130423 23:31:09< skyfaller> hi midNightPhoenix, so what version of Wesnoth are you running?
20130423 23:31:27-!- midNightPhoenix_ [0e8b614f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.97.79] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130423 23:31:56< skyfaller> erm, midNightPhoenix_, what version of Wesnoth are you running?
20130423 23:32:59< midNightPhoenix_> skyfaller: 1.10.5
20130423 23:33:23-!- midNightPhoenix [0e8b6149@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.97.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20130423 23:34:16< skyfaller> you should download the development version of Wesnoth, 1.11.2
20130423 23:35:16< skyfaller> midNightPhoenix_: I believe it has some new AIs built in, but if you want the latest, cutting-edge AI you should install the AI Modification Demos add-on, which is only compatible with the latest development version of Wesnoth right now
20130423 23:36:07< midNightPhoenix_> skyfaller: u mean 1.11.2?
20130423 23:36:11< skyfaller> yes
20130423 23:37:21< skyfaller> our AIs are much smarter than the default AI from 1.10 :) Not that that is a high bar...
20130423 23:37:47< _Coffee> skyfaller: that is debatable (but progress is good) :P
20130423 23:38:14< midNightPhoenix_> skyfaller: ok, so after observing the different AI , say for 10-15 multiplayer games, then what?
20130423 23:38:28< skyfaller> _Coffee: well, in a fair fight Fred was beating the RCA AI like 93% of the time, last time I heard
20130423 23:39:05< _Coffee> skyfaller: we'll see how it goes against a human later on in a few weeks ;)
20130423 23:39:40< skyfaller> midNightPhoenix_: well, you should check out all of the micro AIs included in the AI Modification Demos add-on
20130423 23:40:02< midNightPhoenix_> hmm.
20130423 23:40:16-!- midNightPhoenix_ [0e8b614f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.97.79] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20130423 23:41:56< skyfaller> _Coffee: yeah, Fred and Ron don't do nearly as well against humans as they do against the RCA AI, sadly, but it's hard to measure how well the AIs do against humans
20130423 23:42:22< _Coffee> skyfaller: currently it is too easy to goad the "experiemental AI", but I hear that it is being worked on
20130423 23:42:44< skyfaller> I mean, humans are variable, even if the same person plays against AIs all the time they will have days where they e.g. didn't get enough sleep
20130423 23:43:06< _Coffee> yes, but it is very predictable at the moment
20130423 23:44:05< skyfaller> yeah, the thing that humans can do that the RCA AI can't is notice leaks in Fred or Ron's gameplay and exploit them to the fullest
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20130423 23:44:42< skyfaller> we definitely need to make the AIs more unpredictable and capable of springing surprises
20130423 23:44:50< _Coffee> that would be good
20130423 23:46:17-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20130423 23:48:16< mattsc> _Coffee: just one quick comment.  The ExpAI is Ron, not Fred.
20130423 23:48:47-!- exciton [chuck-the-@89.208.169.104] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130423 23:49:52< skyfaller> Ron is the generic rush AI which works with all factions and maps, Fred is an experimental AI that specializes in grunt rushes on Freelands for side 1
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20130423 23:50:22< skyfaller> we want to make him play as close to a perfect game as possible in that limited situation, and then generalize
20130423 23:50:46< _Coffee> skyfaller: that's a good idea
20130423 23:51:29< skyfaller> mattsc: is there a page where we keep track of the win/loss ratio for Fred and Ron vs. the RCA AI?
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20130423 23:52:52< _Coffee> skyfaller,mattsc: do you need a way to calculate this often?
20130423 23:53:37< _Coffee> I made an addon in the past for my own uses that resets the scenario to the beginning and keeps count in a loop for a specified number of iterations
20130423 23:53:43< skyfaller> well, if they start losing more often against the RCA AI, it probably means that we've introduced some sort of stupid bug
20130423 23:53:58< _Coffee> you could run something like this from the command line
20130423 23:54:03< _Coffee> and see th output
20130423 23:54:14< _Coffee> with graphics suppressed and no-gui
20130423 23:54:22< skyfaller> I think Alarantalara was doing that for us and posting the results
20130423 23:54:31< _Coffee> I did it in the past because I thought the random chances were flaky :P
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20130423 23:56:56< _Coffee> with a script you call with no graphics you can run simulations of small AI battles very fast, and also run statistical calculations on it as part of the addon, before writing to stdout which could be redirected to the end of a file
20130423 23:57:32< _Coffee> you could also run nqeens like changes
20130423 23:58:13< _Coffee> to see what parameters influence the game by being increased or decreased by mutations, cross-breeding etc. from the one simulation
20130423 23:58:21< _Coffee> you could leave running all-night
20130423 23:58:28< mattsc> _Coffee: yes, the statistics come from runing large numbers of AI vs. AI battles from the CL in no-gui mode.
20130423 23:59:08< _Coffee> have you thought of changing the parameters (like caution, etc.) like this?
20130423 23:59:22< _Coffee> similar to how you might solve the nqeens problem?
20130423 23:59:31< shadowm> Zazweda: Okay, I'm assuming you are 'Zazweda' in the forums. Done.
--- Log closed Wed Apr 24 00:00:12 2013