--- Log opened Wed Apr 24 00:00:12 2013
--- Day changed Wed Apr 24 2013
20130424 00:00:12< mattsc> _Coffee: yes, we do that for some of the changes we make to our AIs.  The standard aspects do not play a role for them.
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20130424 00:01:50< skyfaller> mattsc: so I was suggesting we should have a public page where we can see the results for each release or whatever, last I remember they were just in a pastebin or something
20130424 00:02:30< mattsc> _Coffee, skyfaller : sorry, not trying to be short, I just really don't have time right now.  I haven't even read everything you have typed yet.
20130424 00:02:39< _Coffee> np
20130424 00:02:46< _Coffee> I need to get going to work myself
20130424 00:03:02< mattsc> skyfaller: yes, great idea, and yet more overhead...  :)
20130424 00:03:08< _Coffee> just interested in what is happening
20130424 00:03:27< skyfaller> mattsc: well, if we had a system in place for running the simulations I'd be happy to do that
20130424 00:03:32< mattsc> I'd be happy to discuss all of this in great detail some other time.  :)
20130424 00:05:03< skyfaller> no prob, we'll bug you later ;-)
20130424 00:05:03< mattsc> skyfaller: cool.  Talk to Alarantalara 
20130424 00:05:03< mattsc> (about the batch testing I mean)
20130424 00:05:03< skyfaller> right
20130424 00:05:03< mattsc> I'm off for real now.  Actually logging off.  Should have more time tomorrow.
20130424 00:05:03< skyfaller> we'll miss you!
20130424 00:05:03< mattsc> yeah, right  :D
20130424 00:05:07< mattsc> Later
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20130424 00:16:56< LordBob_> fendrin: Online ?
20130424 00:22:44< LordBob_> fendrin: I wanted to ask a few questions regarding the low res backgrounds.
20130424 00:22:56< LordBob_> fendrin: but it'll wait until tomorrow.
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20130424 01:36:20< Soliton> vinipsmaker: fendrin started work towards that. i think he posted on the mailing list about it.
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20130424 01:42:34< vinipsmaker> Soliton: I didn't see anything about it in the mailing list
20130424 01:43:04< vinipsmaker> Soliton: do you remember the subject of the message? maybe I'll need to check in the mailing archives
20130424 01:44:28< Soliton> https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2013-04/msg00044.html
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20130424 01:49:53< vinipsmaker> Soliton: thanks
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20130424 03:46:58< nurupo> can somebody point me to the code that sends config["speak"] messages when sending a text message in multiplayer and to code that reads these messages when recieves them from the server?
20130424 03:53:11< faabumc> Hi _Coffee, are you familiar with src/playcampaign.cpp?
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20130424 04:48:47< nurupo> found what i was looking for
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20130424 04:55:21< nurupo> it is in playmp_controller::play_network_turn(), just in case somewone would like to know
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20130424 05:05:36-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Git migration to GitHub in progress, please *stop* committing to SF | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 176 bugs, 333 feature requests, 27 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130424 06:11:50< Iordanis> fatal error LNK1104: cannot open file 'VCOMPD.lib' when trying to compile 1.11.1
20130424 06:11:55< Iordanis> I followed all instructions
20130424 06:12:03< Iordanis> :S
20130424 06:12:38< Iordanis> Is the new VC_10 supposed to replace the boost instalation? 
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20130424 06:23:06< nurupo> Iordanis: VCOMPD.lib is part of visual studio
20130424 06:23:21< Iordanis> I know that since I googled it
20130424 06:23:24< nurupo> it comes with VS Professional and higher
20130424 06:23:32< Iordanis> but I can compile wesnoth 10.6 just fine
20130424 06:23:46< Iordanis> I am using VC++ 10
20130424 06:24:47< nurupo> 10.6 and 1.11.1 are different and require different things
20130424 06:25:11< nurupo> Iordanis: are you using Express VC++ 10?
20130424 06:25:14< Iordanis> Yeah
20130424 06:25:19< Iordanis> u think that is the problem?
20130424 06:25:41< nurupo> VCOMPD.lib come with Professional version and higher
20130424 06:25:43< nurupo> *comes
20130424 06:26:39< Iordanis> Wait... I just realized I have express edition install on my computer
20130424 06:26:45< Iordanis> is it included?
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20130424 07:20:37< kelpy> anyone know if a function exists that finds all hexes within a certain distance?
20130424 07:22:04< _8680_> kelpy: I don’t know exactly, but I expect looking at the implementation of [filter_location]radius= would be a good start.
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20130424 08:27:05< LordBob_> fendrin: ping ?
20130424 08:27:12< fendrin> LordBob_: pong
20130424 08:27:48< fendrin> LordBob_: Can you confirm that the 30px editor unit tool normal icon is missing? Or did I lost it somewhere?
20130424 08:29:51< LordBob_> Fendrin: you're right, I dd miss it when creating the package
20130424 08:29:59< LordBob_> I'll send it immediately
20130424 08:31:35< fendrin> tx
20130424 08:33:51< LordBob_> Fendrin: sent. I also sent a replacement for part of the 1024 backgrounds, which I had created from the wrong file
20130424 08:34:40< LordBob_> Fendrin: next, if you havee a few minutes, I would like to check a few things about the 800x480 screen
20130424 08:35:16< fendrin> sure
20130424 08:37:19< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/255150
20130424 08:39:26< LordBob_> Fendrin: nice. That shade of blue might be a bit flashy, though :/
20130424 08:40:02< fendrin> LordBob_: And another glitch: Not all brush icons are at the same level.
20130424 08:40:22< LordBob_> I've just spotted it, yeah
20130424 08:40:48< LordBob_> Speaking of glitches, does the tiling work correctly with the new bacgrounds ?
20130424 08:40:53< LordBob_> *backgrounds
20130424 08:41:30< fendrin> hmmm
20130424 08:41:36< fendrin> When did you sent them?
20130424 08:41:43< fendrin> I have not seen new ones yet :-)
20130424 08:43:05< LordBob_> I PM'd a "theme classic" package with png backgrounds yesterday 
20130424 08:43:18< fendrin> Okay, I will have a look at them.
20130424 08:43:42< LordBob_> They were basically the same files, minus tiling glitches and in proper format
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20130424 08:44:46< LordBob_> Fendrin: About the 800x480 screen, now. First thing, you mentionned that we would revert to 25 pix tools buttons. However, I suspect the palette buttons would be unchanged, wouldn't they. And with them the width of the sidebar. Correct ?
20130424 08:45:04< fendrin> yes
20130424 08:45:27< fendrin> The 25 pixel buttons allow for a 6th column of buttons.
20130424 08:46:08< LordBob_> So, it's a matter of adjusting both the upper bar and side bar tools icons to 25 pixels icons
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20130424 08:46:56< LordBob_> But do we need it ? Functionally speaking, it is good that the brushes buttons fill an entire line
20130424 08:47:47< vultraz> I vote for keeping it 5
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20130424 08:48:58< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, let's have a look at 800x480. The current layout only allows a single line of terrains here. 
20130424 08:49:25< fendrin> LordBob_: I call that broken.
20130424 08:49:48< fendrin> LordBob_: You can't really work with only 4 terrains visible at the same time.
20130424 08:50:11< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus we need to work on drastic changes to make it working again.
20130424 08:50:39< LordBob_> Fendrin: this much I agree. 
20130424 08:51:16< trademark> hello
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20130424 08:51:32< LordBob_> Fendrin: I was initially hoping we could limit our intervention to nudging up the tools/tools options side bar, but it doesn't look sufficient
20130424 08:52:05< fendrin> LordBob_: Let me finish a screenshot, I think it will be more worth then all the words I could make.
20130424 08:52:13< LordBob_> Fendrin: so maybe for this format we can relocate the tools + options in a vertical bar
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20130424 08:57:00< LordBob_> Fendrin: possible layout for the 800x480 screen:  http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=61419&mode=view
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20130424 09:28:51< thunderstruck> fendrin, hi.
20130424 09:29:20< thunderstruck> fendrin, are extra_define in CampaignWML not supported for multiplayer because of the same things as difficulties are not supported there?
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20130424 09:29:50< thunderstruck> s/extra_define/extra_defines
20130424 09:31:22< fendrin> thunderstruck: yes
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20130424 09:33:03< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. Thanks. So 'define' would also not work? Is there anything else I am missing which would be required to port LoW to the 'new syntax'?
20130424 09:33:35< fendrin> new syntax?
20130424 09:33:51< thunderstruck> fendrin, I was referring my proposal.
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20130424 09:34:33< thunderstruck> fendrin, although it is probably not very clear to call it 'new syntax'.
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20130424 09:34:45< thunderstruck> fendrin, 'cause it is more than that.
20130424 09:38:04< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/255154
20130424 09:38:33< fendrin> thunderstruck: hmmm
20130424 09:38:40< fendrin> thunderstruck: I do not know yet.
20130424 09:39:15< thunderstruck> LordBob_, fendrin This project of yours looks really good.
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20130424 09:40:06< thunderstruck> fendrin, I see. I am re-writing my proposal and I just wanted sure not to miss anything.
20130424 09:40:26< fendrin> thunderstruck: I will have a look later and see if there is still anything missing. Just contact me later.
20130424 09:40:43< thunderstruck> fendrin, alright. Are you busy right now?
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20130424 09:41:08< fendrin> thunderstruck: Yes, I work on the editor layout.
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20130424 09:41:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Still around?
20130424 09:41:35< thunderstruck> fendrin, ok. No problem. Good luck with that.
20130424 09:42:34< LordBob_> fendrin: yup
20130424 09:43:52< fendrin> LordBob_: Note how the minimap got smaller, thus the whole toolbar can move up.
20130424 09:44:19< LordBob_> Fendrin: smaller minimap works for me, but I don't think grouping tools this way is going to be very intuitive for the user 
20130424 09:44:46< LordBob_> Fendrin: hwo about relocating tools llike in the mockup I proposed earlier ?
20130424 09:45:23< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I do not care that much. Users who insist to do maps on that small devices deserve some pain. A complete new design just for a resolution that is going to die soon anyway...
20130424 09:45:31< LordBob_> Fendrin: is it maybe too much trouble to maintain alternate themes with so much difference ?
20130424 09:46:03< fendrin> yes
20130424 09:46:44< fendrin> LordBob_: I know you do not want to do another set of smaller tool icons. But we could use them in the menues where the 30px ones are really huge...
20130424 09:47:39< fendrin> LordBob_: Note how I used the upper toolbar's right end as a seperator.
20130424 09:47:44< fendrin> LordBob_: Can I have a better one?
20130424 09:47:58< LordBob_> Fendrin: no worries, I'm already working on them. As for screen layout, I would still stick to 4 lines of tools
20130424 09:48:44< LordBob_> Fendrin: where ? I do not see the separator
20130424 09:48:53< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the screenshot I gave you is 800x600. At 800x480 it is much more worse.
20130424 09:49:06< fendrin> It is between the icons in the upper toolbar.
20130424 09:49:18< fendrin> between 2 and 3 and 5 and 6
20130424 09:49:27< fendrin> and 8 and 9
20130424 09:49:51< LordBob_> Oh.
20130424 09:49:54< LordBob_> I see it now
20130424 09:51:06< LordBob_> Xhat exactly would you need ? A patch of fixed dimensions to paste between icons ?
20130424 09:51:10< LordBob_> *What
20130424 09:51:34< LordBob_> Fendrin: would a transparent png do the job ?
20130424 09:51:40< fendrin> Well, the outer line..
20130424 09:51:51< fendrin> Just the outer line of the horizontal seperator.
20130424 09:52:13 * LordBob_ facepalms
20130424 09:52:17< LordBob_> Of course
20130424 09:52:42< fendrin> LordBob_: I could produce it myself by butchering the toolbar's end.
20130424 09:52:57< LordBob_> But then, why not separate those icons with only empty sapce ?
20130424 09:53:47< LordBob_> Fendrin: is it because an image as separator is easier to handle ?
20130424 09:54:56< fendrin> No, I just thought it would look good :-)
20130424 09:56:38< LordBob_> Hmm...Not sure if it would work well. The buttons already have a border that stands out; maybe we do not want to overcrowd the bar
20130424 09:57:36< LordBob_> Fendrin: speaking of this upper bar, do you mant me to adjust it as well for 25 pix icons, or do we keep those at 30 pix ?
20130424 09:58:17< fendrin> LordBob_: I am not sure yet.
20130424 09:59:06< LordBob_> Then, I'd say we make them 25. It's not much space gained, but with such a small screen anything is better than nothing
20130424 09:59:18< fendrin> okay
20130424 09:59:24< LordBob_> And also, we throw away the viewport frame
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20130424 10:11:43< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, replaced the jpeg with the new png ones, everything looks fine.
20130424 10:12:38< LordBob_> Great
20130424 10:13:30< LordBob_> Fendrin: Something else for the 800x480 layout: do we also use 25 pixels terrain group icons ?
20130424 10:17:03< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, we could. Still the new dialog has enough room to use the big ones.
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20130424 10:17:29< fendrin> LordBob_: But I guess it is better for sake of consistency.
20130424 10:18:47< LordBob_> Ok, let's do it then
20130424 10:19:43< LordBob_> Fendrin: and something else: what will be the control to open this new dialog ? Still the upper left button at the top of the palette ?
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20130424 10:20:18< LordBob_> In other words, I'm wondering if we need specific artwork for this button, or if it will merely display the icon of the currently selected terrain group
20130424 10:23:36< fendrin> LordBob_: The later.
20130424 10:24:08< LordBob_> fendrin: then, no state-specific images for this button ? 
20130424 10:24:18< fendrin> sure
20130424 10:24:43< fendrin> It is a turbo button with all the states involved for it.
20130424 10:25:06< fendrin> But you do not need to take care about it.
20130424 10:25:10< LordBob_> Do you mean you will overlay the transparent background icon on top of the existing blank button ?
20130424 10:25:15< fendrin> yes
20130424 10:25:27< LordBob_> Good
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20130424 10:27:41< LordBob_> Fendrin: so, the dialog would display (icon + colored background), and the button (icon + transparent background) ?
20130424 10:27:51< LordBob_> Or no colored backgrounds at all ?
20130424 10:28:42< fendrin> hmmm
20130424 10:29:18< fendrin> LordBob_: We talked about using the tristate base images for the group dialog as well.
20130424 10:30:39< LordBob_> Ok. Then I'll try the icons against a neutral button background and see if they read properly
20130424 10:31:34< LordBob_> Fendrin: and yet another question, about the tools buttons. Where would you display the conditional tools-specific buttons ? Sixth column ? 
20130424 10:31:50< fendrin> yeah
20130424 10:32:17< fendrin> LordBob_: I already set it apart from the rest of them to signal their different purpose.
20130424 10:32:42< LordBob_> Ok. I'll try to add a specific border or something
20130424 10:44:20< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm almost done with the backgrounds. We will be able to display four terrain rows or txo unit rows in the 800*480 palette
20130424 10:44:55< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, I hope that is enough.
20130424 10:45:24< fendrin> LordBob_: Anyway that are 16 terrains overall, 16 more than the current solution offers.
20130424 10:45:48< LordBob_> Well, it is as you said. Who is going to edit maps on their mobile phone anyway ? :p
20130424 10:48:55< LordBob_> Fendrin: should the need arise, we can free up two extra rows by relocating the tools. But let's wait for a strong user demand before we seriously consider this: it's not like we don't have other stuff to take care of...
20130424 10:49:10< fendrin> LordBob_: Agreed.
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20130424 11:14:19< fendrin> hi Crab_
20130424 11:14:24< fendrin> LordBob_: Still around?
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20130424 11:14:35< Crab_> fendrin: hello!
20130424 11:15:20< fendrin> Crab_: I hope you don't mind that I talked with thunderstruck about singleplayer campaigns being played as an instance of hotseat MP.
20130424 11:15:22< LordBob_> Fendrin: yup
20130424 11:15:43< Crab_> fendrin: looks great to me
20130424 11:15:54< fendrin> LordBob_: I just realized what tool icons are missing.
20130424 11:15:59< fendrin> Crab_: What exactly?
20130424 11:16:12< Crab_> fendrin: that you talked about it :)
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20130424 11:17:36< fendrin> LordBob_: "Fill Selection", "Randomize Tiles In Selection",  "Rotate Clipboard Clockwise", Rotate Clipboard Counter-Clockwise, Flip Clipboard Horizontally, Flip Clipboard Vertically.
20130424 11:18:12< fendrin> Crab_: Well, I did not want to talk your possible gsoc student into stuff you don't like.
20130424 11:18:54< LordBob_> fendrin: noted. I'll include them in the sets
20130424 11:18:58< LordBob_> fendrin: http://imagebin.org/255158
20130424 11:19:53< Crab_> fendrin: I think that for that particular project, you're one of the stakeholders (as we want to work on LoW, and you were working on making a great MP campaign from it), so naturally, you can help determine the project direction.
20130424 11:20:21< fendrin> Crab_: Well, I am glad I can be helpful.
20130424 11:20:35< Crab_> fendrin: just note that it means that the student would later ask you questions, as well :) (well, he does so anyway :)) 
20130424 11:20:56< fendrin> Crab_: I will adjust LoW to work with the current progress thus it can be used as a testcase.
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20130424 11:24:34< LordBob_> Fendrin: slincing's done. I'll send the background parts to you
20130424 11:24:46< fendrin> LordBob_: Tx
20130424 11:25:15< thunderstruck> Crab_, I think I could also bug Soliton regarding this mp campaign support idea, right?
20130424 11:25:44< thunderstruck> Crab_, at least he is in the 'soc people to bug list'.
20130424 11:25:53< Crab_> thunderstruck: I guess that the project would not have to deal with low-level MP stuff, so most likely 'no'
20130424 11:25:54< thunderstruck> Crab_, and described as the one who knows about MP.
20130424 11:26:13< thunderstruck> Crab_, "might provide important help from the perspective of the MP player community and what is needed there."
20130424 11:26:46< thunderstruck> Crab_, this line catched my attention.
20130424 11:27:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: you can always ask. or you can ask at the forums, as well. but, I'd prefer to just concentrate on LoW as a test case, and then let people comment on the stuff we did.
20130424 11:27:57< LordBob_> Fendrin: while we're on icons, I still have some comments about their positionning. Shall I give them now, or would you rather we took care of it once everything else is done ?
20130424 11:28:08< thunderstruck> Crab_, I saw you talked with one of the gsoc applicants about 3 steps project.
20130424 11:28:15< fendrin> LordBob_: No, please give them to me now.
20130424 11:28:24< thunderstruck> Crab_, and I thought that I might be able to apply to my project.
20130424 11:28:28< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes, that's a generally good idea
20130424 11:28:37< thunderstruck> Crab_, step 1: everything to support LoW
20130424 11:28:40< LordBob_> Fendrin: ok. It's mostly the order in which tools are displayed
20130424 11:29:06< thunderstruck> Crab_, 2: all extra things which are very desirable. E.g. proper saving/restoring of mp games.
20130424 11:29:19< thunderstruck> Crab_, 3: everything what's left.
20130424 11:30:02< LordBob_> Fendrin: in the tools palette, i would find it more intuitive to have all the terrain-drawing tools on the first row (draw, fill, select, label; [extra spot])
20130424 11:30:25< thunderstruck> Crab_, that's just a quick thought I had. What do you think?
20130424 11:30:39< thunderstruck> Crab_, (about steps like that)
20130424 11:30:54< LordBob_> Fendrin: then, all the game content tools on the second row (starting location, villages, units, items, soundsources)
20130424 11:31:00< Crab_> thunderstruck: I'd say that you should write all those small goals in a table, then rerrange them between milestones.
20130424 11:31:09< fendrin> LordBob_: The current tool order is as the following:
20130424 11:31:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's ok if some 'strange or optional' things important for LoW would come later than some non-LoW things.
20130424 11:31:25< fendrin> LordBob_: The first column: Both terrain drawing tools.
20130424 11:31:37< fendrin> LordBob_: The second column, select and paste which are a pair.
20130424 11:32:02< fendrin> LordBob_: The thrid column: start position and label, both tools which affect a single hex field.
20130424 11:32:24< fendrin> LordBob_: Forth column: Item and soundsource, a pair.
20130424 11:32:44< fendrin> LordBob_: Fifth column, village and unit, which are a also a pair.
20130424 11:32:52< LordBob_> Fendrin: I do get that logic. However, the tools are layed out in rows and I think this will incline users to search for consistency of tools in a same row, rather than columns
20130424 11:33:35< LordBob_> I'm also not sure of the relevances of a redudant paste button when it is already associated with cut and copy in the upper bar
20130424 11:33:40< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, maybe we change the visual layout a little to make the columns more prominent?
20130424 11:34:23< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, I have cut, copy, the user will expect paste next. On the other hand is the paste also a tool thus I thought it deserves to live there as well.
20130424 11:34:59< LordBob_> I very much doubt it will change anything. The big shape our brain will be is a row unless we introduce extra spacing between the columns$
20130424 11:35:40< LordBob_> Fendrin: in that case, it would belong with the tool-specific actions of the "select" tool.
20130424 11:35:47< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, I can make the space between icons in a column smaller and the one between the columns bigger.
20130424 11:36:26< LordBob_> The redundancy itself isn't too much trouble; it's really finding a common-use action such as paste among the tools that confuses me
20130424 11:36:33< fendrin> LordBob_: You can paste at any time, as long as the clipboard is not empty. No matter which tool is active.
20130424 11:36:55< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. So does fendrin's proposed idea to play sp campaigns as mp hotseat is, as you said, 'unifying for unifications sake'?
20130424 11:37:02< fendrin> LordBob_: Technically, the paste mode is as much a tool as any other.
20130424 11:37:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: in SP hotseat you  get a full list of all MP scenarios and campaigns
20130424 11:37:32< LordBob_> Fendrin: I wouldn't say so. As you said yourself, pasting doesn't  exclude the active state of other tools
20130424 11:37:35< Crab_> thunderstruck: if SP campaigns happen to be also MP campaigns, they should be in the list, as normal
20130424 11:37:48< fendrin> LordBob_: Sure, it does.
20130424 11:37:53< LordBob_> Oh ?
20130424 11:38:07< fendrin> LordBob_: It is a tool, when you are in paste mode, paste is your current tool and no other.
20130424 11:38:12< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, I think that that would happen automatically as a side effect of the project.
20130424 11:39:20< LordBob_> Hmm. I still don't like the way it currently looks :s
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20130424 11:39:34< fendrin> :-)
20130424 11:39:50< LordBob_> Maybe a different icon would work better
20130424 11:40:08< fendrin> LordBob_: You are on a mac?
20130424 11:40:14< thunderstruck> Crab_, that's true. Thanks for the answers.
20130424 11:40:14< LordBob_> I am
20130424 11:41:46< LordBob_> Fendrin; then, what difference is there between the "paste" button of the tool bar and the cut/copy/paste buttons of the upper bar ?
20130424 11:41:56< vultraz> All ze cool art guys have macs :)
20130424 11:43:20< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the cut/copy buttons do not change the current tool, they just copy the current selection into the clipboard.
20130424 11:43:51< fendrin> LordBob_: But the paste one changes what the mouse is going to do like every other tool.
20130424 11:44:03< vultraz> fendrin: question: do you have up to 10 tool-specific functions for at least one function?
20130424 11:44:37< fendrin> vultraz: Current max is 4.
20130424 11:45:41< vultraz> fendrin: what about for starting positions. Each of the ten tool-specific buttons could be for a side. CLick it, clik on a hex,l startingloc set :)
20130424 11:46:17< fendrin> vultraz: We do not hide the brush bar.
20130424 11:46:26< fendrin> vultraz: Thus only 5 for general purpose use.
20130424 11:47:19< LordBob_> Fendrin: can you use copy/cut when another tool is active, provided that a selection exists ?
20130424 11:47:28< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes
20130424 11:47:46< vultraz> fendrin: why do you always need the brush bar?
20130424 11:47:59< vultraz> are brushes universal use functions across all tools?
20130424 11:48:17< fendrin> vultraz: No, the brush is only for draw and selection.
20130424 11:48:41< vultraz> hm...
20130424 11:49:01< fendrin> vultraz: Maybe later the soundsource will also make use of them.
20130424 11:49:07< vultraz> A. Couldn't be be usedfor items, units, etc, and B, if not, why not hide it
20130424 11:49:31< fendrin> vultraz: Well, I could.
20130424 11:49:53< fendrin> vultraz: Still, 5 general purpose buttons should be enough.
20130424 11:50:02< LordBob_> Fendrin: Then, how about removing paste from the upper bar and displaying it only among the tools ? If it works just like the rest of them, I don't see a reason not to
20130424 11:51:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Well the appearance in the top bar is just for completeness. I thought having to move to the other border of the application is inconvenient.
20130424 11:51:40< fendrin> LordBob_: The user will most likely use cut and paste in one work flow.
20130424 11:52:26< LordBob_> Hmm...That's troublesome
20130424 11:52:54< LordBob_> I'm really not fond of this redundancy
20130424 11:55:29< LordBob_> I know. It bothers me to have this button displayed in two different locations, yet none of the locations works well if used alone
20130424 11:56:08< LordBob_> Hmm...Maybe we should introduce a third bar, after all
20130424 11:57:31< LordBob_> Leave real common-use actions such as save/load/the undo group in the upper bar, and add a right vertical bar with options that will be used in the same workflow as a tool (i.e cut/copy, the select group, the missing ones you mentionned earlier, ...)
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20130424 11:58:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Most of the ones I mentioned earlier are paste tool specific and thus should use the 5 general purpose buttons.
20130424 11:59:52< LordBob_> Fendrin: Or at least, introduce an obvious separation in the upper tool bar between those different sets 
20130424 12:00:42< LordBob_> For instance, anchor 'real' common-use items on the left, and tool-related items on the right
20130424 12:03:54< LordBob_> Fendrin: Okay, but it still leaves the upper tool bar with two very different types of content 
20130424 12:04:45 * LordBob_ ponders
20130424 12:05:30< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, the paste thing is something special, it is both a tool and it certainly belongs to cut and copy.
20130424 12:05:47< fendrin> LordBob_: But it will be the only one being that special if I am not mistaken.
20130424 12:06:09< fendrin> LordBob_: I wonder if we should rethink our current, well working layout, just because of a single item.
20130424 12:06:55< LordBob_> Hmm. Then, at least make it obvious that selecting this tool in the upper tool bar also selects its counterpart in the sidebar tools panel
20130424 12:07:21< LordBob_> Fendrin: Now, back to the subject of icons layout
20130424 12:08:25< LordBob_> Fendrin: While I do get the logic of associating them in pairs, I still think most if not all users will search for these associations in rows. It's a brain thing: we see a line, we follow it
20130424 12:09:25< LordBob_> fendrin: so, how about the following:
20130424 12:09:45< LordBob_> First row: draw/fill, select/paste, label
20130424 12:10:10< LordBob_> Second row: starting loc, village/unit, items/soundsources
20130424 12:10:51< fendrin> draw/fill, select/paste works for me in a row, but how is label fitting in?
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20130424 12:11:38< fendrin> And the second row is then just a bunch of more or less unrelated tools.
20130424 12:11:41< LordBob_> Fendrin: say what: I'll arrange them this way using your screenshot. Best think with a picture
20130424 12:13:46< LordBob_> Fendrin: wouldn't second row items fit together because they all serve to fill the map with game-related content, whereas the first line only serves to create its geography ?
20130424 12:14:12< fendrin> yes
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20130424 12:19:59< LordBob_> Fendrin: something like that http://imagebin.org/255162
20130424 12:20:38< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, it looks fine. It is just that most of them just work in pairs.
20130424 12:21:01< LordBob_> Or, we could opt for a different approach and place on the left side the tools/pairs that get used the most
20130424 12:21:19< fendrin> That is already the case.
20130424 12:21:23< fendrin> draw/fill
20130424 12:21:27< fendrin> are used most
20130424 12:21:35< fendrin> select/paste are second important
20130424 12:21:41< LordBob_> Then select/paste
20130424 12:21:44< LordBob_> Yeah
20130424 12:21:52< fendrin> label and starting position will be third.
20130424 12:22:01< fendrin> The rest is of lesser importance.
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20130424 12:22:35< LordBob_> Oh; Even villages and units ?
20130424 12:23:39< vultraz> fendrin: I think starting pos. should be in the top row
20130424 12:24:29< fendrin> LordBob_: Villages and units only work if the user is willing to give the editor control over the [side] definitions.
20130424 12:25:02< LordBob_> In this case, let's stick to your initial columns layout. You've used the editor more than I have and I wouldn't want to ruin its usability for the sake of logic
20130424 12:25:38< fendrin> vultraz: It is currently.
20130424 12:26:07< vultraz> in the screenshot it looks like it's on the second
20130424 12:26:16< fendrin> LordBob_: Your are right, we should give some attention to the columns, I will see if I can pronounce the pairs more with adjusting the space between them.
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20130424 12:27:32< LordBob_> vultraz: that screenshot is an experimental layout I mocked up
20130424 12:27:42< vultraz> oh
20130424 12:28:18< fendrin> LordBob_, vultraz: What do you think about a button for enabling the drawing of the terrain codes and one for the hex coordinates?
20130424 12:28:40< vultraz> LordBob_: looks perfectly fine, except I think Label should be on row 2 col 1, and starting p. on row 1 col 3
20130424 12:28:53< LordBob_> Fendrin: nah, don't bother with columns They're already crammed full in that box, I think it'll just make things look uneven
20130424 12:29:58< LordBob_> Fendrin: what do you mean by terrain codes ?
20130424 12:30:41< fendrin> LordBob_: Just start your editor, go to the map menu and activate the draw terrain code option.
20130424 12:31:11< fendrin> LordBob_: I use both options quite often.
20130424 12:31:37< fendrin> LordBob_: This are the actual terrain codes written into the file.
20130424 12:33:12< LordBob_> the coordinates I get, but the terrain codes... What are they used for ? 
20130424 12:34:13< fendrin> LordBob_: Say you have a special terrain that can't be distinguished by its looking. But it is different for coding purposes.
20130424 12:36:20< LordBob_> Fendrin: maybe these buttons could be grouped with Toggle Grid and other display options such as the lighting conditions button
20130424 12:36:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, that is my plan.
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20130424 12:40:17< LordBob_> Fendrin: oky, done then. I'll create icons for those as well
20130424 12:40:28< fendrin> LordBob_: Cool, tx.
20130424 12:40:39 * vultraz is glad LordBob_ is doing icons.
20130424 12:40:47< vultraz> My own were horrible :P
20130424 12:40:53< LordBob_> Fendrin: once last thing I wanted to discuss is the minimap
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20130424 12:41:28< LordBob_> Vultraz: well, if you want an opportunity to improve, I could do with some help
20130424 12:42:07< vultraz> Your icons are perfect already, what more could I do with them
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20130424 12:43:38< fendrin> LordBob_: The minimap?
20130424 12:44:30< LordBob_> Fendrin: one thing that bothers me with the minimap is how resize map and flip map aren't display-oriented, but instead change the structure of the map
20130424 12:44:53< LordBob_> Does this work well when associated with the zoom buttons ?
20130424 12:45:58< LordBob_> Either ay, it's no big deal
20130424 12:46:01< LordBob_> *way
20130424 12:46:11< fendrin> hmmm
20130424 12:47:09< fendrin> LordBob_: Well, changing buttons is only a matter of replacing a single line, thus we can experiment even after everything else is finished.
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20130424 12:51:24< LordBob_> Yeah, let's do that. It beats by far discussing things to death
20130424 12:51:47< LordBob_> I'll be going now. See you later, guys
20130424 12:52:12 * vultraz waves
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20130424 12:59:11< fendrin> vultraz: http://imagebin.org/255167
20130424 13:02:44< vultraz> fendrin: nice :) one thing, though. something about the terrain palette interface looks markedly out of place
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20130424 13:57:31< fendrin> vultraz: well, tell me more.
20130424 13:59:11< vultraz> I think it's because all the other buttons look fancy and slightly rounded
20130424 13:59:19< vultraz> and the palette ones look decidedly...flat
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20130424 14:25:25< fendrin> vultraz: Really? The new ones are much more rounded than the old ones.
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20130424 14:54:49< flix> Crab_:  Hi! I think I fixed the debug_ai() thing. But I'm not sure. It seemed to easy (only one little if(!ai_) { init(); } ).  Do you know why there is a separate init() in the first place? Why is the ai-holder not initialized when it is created?
20130424 14:55:14< Crab_> flix: if we have 8 sides, and init takes 10 seconds per side, then init at start would be 80 seconds of delay.
20130424 14:55:36< Crab_> flix: yes, I expected some stupid mistake which makes it segfault
20130424 14:56:04< Crab_> flix: in that case, it's better from ui perspective to have 8 x 10 sec. delays at start of each ai turn, instead of 80 sec delay at the start
20130424 14:56:05< flix> Crab_: I see, then this fix should not break anything, and it should be fine
20130424 14:57:13< Crab_> flix: so,  now just starting a MP/SP game in debug mode and doing something like 'wesnoth.debug_ai(1).move_full(....... )' works ?
20130424 14:57:28< Crab_> flix: (without the need to set up a lua engine or do any changes to scenario config, etc)
20130424 14:59:19< flix> Crab_: No, now it will only make the workaround unnecessary, that you first let the ai make a turn before you can use debug_ai()
20130424 15:00:50< flix> Crab_: the ai variable still need to be global (not local ai = ... )
20130424 15:00:59< Crab_> flix: why you need a global ai variable ?
20130424 15:01:16< Crab_> flix: can't you just use wesnoth.debug_ai(X) instead of a global var?
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20130424 15:03:40< flix> Crab_: (give me a minute, I forgot what I've read yesterday ;) , and I will test it)
20130424 15:04:29< Crab_> flix: e.g. the point of having global ai variable is to save the ai var so you can access it. but, if wesnoth.debug_ai(X) works properly,  it should give the same table (as stored by the engine)
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20130424 15:05:13< Crab_> flix: if there's no lua engine block in AI config in scenario, it should also initialize some empty lua ai engine on the fly (after all, it'll have all the move/attack/recruit/recall/move_full functions)
20130424 15:05:35< Crab_> so, in theory, once the bugs are fixed, then it'll be very easy to run lua code 'from the AI'
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20130424 16:00:04< flix> Crab_: is it currently possible to do anything with debug_ai(2) ? I always get a empty table (Yesterday I only tested with 'lua print(wesnoth.debug_ai(2))' and was satisfied when I saw a address on the stdout)
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20130424 16:00:59< Crab_> flix: I don't know since it wasn't me who implemented that command. The expected behavior is to have an initialized lua AI table for side 2, not an empty table
20130424 16:01:05< Crab_> flix: in that case it has to be fixed
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20130424 16:03:15< flix> when I control the ai (:druid), then 'lua print(ai)' will print me a different reference then 'lua print(wesnoth.debug_ai(2))'. This should be the same, right?
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20130424 16:15:34< mattsc> Crab_ (and flix): just fyi, the Lua AI Howto page still instructs people to set up a global AI variable, even though we don't do it that way any more.
20130424 16:15:51< Crab_> mattsc: it still works, anyway :)
20130424 16:16:11< mattsc> Yes, it does, but there are better ways to do it now.
20130424 16:16:18< Crab_> mattsc: which, in particular?
20130424 16:17:36< mattsc> Crab_: this is how I do it now: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/blob/master/micro_ais/ais/micro_ais_macros.cfg#L26
20130424 16:17:42< mattsc> You told me how to do that  :)
20130424 16:18:24< mattsc> And then the engine file returns that init() function
20130424 16:19:23< Crab_> mattsc:  I see - but I want something slightly different now - make debug_ai(X) work so people would be able to do various 1-line commands 'on their turn'
20130424 16:20:20< mattsc> Crab_: sure, I just wanted to explain where flix got the 'global variable' thing from and why it is there (unless I misread something in the log)
20130424 16:21:38< mattsc> Crab_: I want to change that wiki page, but it'll all have to be redone once the extAIs are fully useable, and I don't want to do it twice (esp. since I've been thinking since last summer that they are almost done :) )
20130424 16:21:53< mattsc> The last part is not meant as a slight at anybody, just explaining why I haven't done it ...
20130424 16:22:28< Crab_> mattsc: yes, I know as I pointed to that page :)
20130424 16:22:55< Crab_> mattsc: it's ok, we just need to wait for the repository to be available and commit all the small fixes
20130424 16:23:09< mattsc> Crab_: :)   I'll go back to the peanut gallery now.
20130424 16:23:19< mattsc> Thanks
20130424 16:27:25< mattsc> Crab_: I'll have to rewrite/restructure a lot of the AI code after this summer.  :D
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20130424 17:04:51< thunderstruck> Maybe someone knows if there is any particular reason why game controller uses enum with 2 values instead of a bool?
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20130424 17:21:40< AI0867> thunderstruck: where?
20130424 17:22:00< AI0867> grep enum src/game_controller.{c,h}pp doesn't return anything
20130424 17:22:19< thunderstruck> AI0867, game_controller_abstract.hpp, line 59
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20130424 17:32:20< AI0867> dunno. Check the log on that file (abstract is the result of an attempt at reimplementing the whole thing in game_controller_new)
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20130424 17:34:32< LordBob_> fendrin, you there ?
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20130424 17:36:15< Crab_> thunderstruck: I suspect that somebody thought there might be other policies apart from those two.
20130424 17:36:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, he set an enum just to be safe
20130424 17:37:13< Crab_> also, enum has slightly better semantic value (if you don't look at variable names, the call site looks easier to understand if it uses an enum with a good name)
20130424 17:37:44< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. compare 'launch_game(false);' with 'launch_game(NO_RELOAD_DATA);'
20130424 17:38:16< Crab_> it becomes especially important if you have multiple bool arguments to a function
20130424 17:38:24< Crab_> since it's relatively easy to mess up the order
20130424 17:38:46< Crab_> and with enums (and with strict compiler) changing the order would get compile errors
20130424 17:39:11< thunderstruck> Crab_, makes sense. What about performance? (just curious)
20130424 17:40:01< thunderstruck> Crab_, performance vs. bool*
20130424 17:40:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: it's outside of any tight loops, and it's still O(1), so who cares even if something fast is several times slower.
20130424 17:40:42< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, I don't know but I expect it to be the same; if you're interested, view the assembly output of your particular compiler to compare what it does.
20130424 17:42:03< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. enums are type-safe int (as small in size as possible to fit all enum value in), and bools are sometimes also represented by int8. so, fundamentally, it can even have the same representation.
20130424 17:43:24< Crab_> thunderstruck: also, in theory, since here that function is called with a compile-time argument, it's possible to inline it, eliminating it completely.
20130424 17:44:03< Crab_> thunderstruck: no idea if any particular compiler would do it her.
20130424 17:44:07< Crab_> *here
20130424 17:44:17< thunderstruck> Crab_, wow, that's pretty comprehensive answer. Thanks.
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20130424 18:07:29< fendrin> LordBob_: now
20130424 18:08:08< LordBob_> Fendrin: I'm working on the extra icons, but this sparked a few more questions
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20130424 18:09:26< LordBob_> fendrin: First, for "fill selection" and "randomize selections". Do we absolutely need the extra buttons, or would it be possible to modify the tools so that they automatically restrict their action when a selection exists ?
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20130424 18:09:40< LordBob_> (in an effort to keep the number of buttons limited)
20130424 18:10:22< fendrin> LordBob_: Did you see the last screenshot?
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20130424 18:10:39< LordBob_> hmm...I dont think so
20130424 18:10:41< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/255167
20130424 18:11:34< LordBob_> Ok. 
20130424 18:11:38< fendrin> LordBob_: The 4 empty ones at the top are the fill/randomize to the left.
20130424 18:12:05< fendrin> And coordinates/terrain strings to the right.
20130424 18:12:37< fendrin> LordBob_: The current set of icons does still fit on a 800xsomething resolution without and modification.
20130424 18:12:51< fendrin> It is still not too crowded for my taste.
20130424 18:13:05< LordBob_> But we're still adding a dozen new icons compared to the old editor
20130424 18:14:16< fendrin> One of the problems of the old editor was the fact that most users did not know all its functions because they were hidden and there isn't a manual.
20130424 18:14:47< fendrin> There are dozens of forum thread were people learn about editor functions they simply overlooked.
20130424 18:15:14< LordBob_> My point isn't only about too many icons or too few. Instead, from a user's point of view, would it not be natural that tools such as fill are restricted to within the selected area ? That's how most image editing tools work, so we might gain in consistency and usability 
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20130424 18:16:50< fendrin> LordBob_: The fill/randomize buttons are one of the class of buttons which are only active if we have a selection. Just like copy/cut.
20130424 18:17:14< fendrin> LordBob_: Thus they belong in their region, don't they?
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20130424 18:19:13< LordBob_> They do. But that's still not my point. What I mean is; would there not be a way to activate those functionnalities automatically without the user having to press a specific button.
20130424 18:19:25< fendrin> LordBob_: I think I did not understand what you meant with: "would it not be natural that tools such as fill are restricted to within the selected area ?"
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20130424 18:20:06< fendrin> LordBob_: There are different ways to use the editor functions. You can bind a hotkey for example.
20130424 18:20:14< fendrin> LordBob_: Or use the context menu.
20130424 18:21:01< LordBob_> Take for instance MS Paint, or GIMP. When you use the fill tool on a blank canvas, everything is painted. On a image, only pixels of a similar value are filled. And when you use it with an active selection, the fill effect is *automatically* restricted to the selected area
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20130424 18:21:28< LordBob_> The user does not have to activate a specific option
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20130424 18:22:06< fendrin> Ah yes.
20130424 18:22:20< fendrin> Now I get it.
20130424 18:22:37< LordBob_> That's the little gain in usability that i'm interested in ; because many existing software already allow it, it would just feel natural to suers :)
20130424 18:22:47< LordBob_> *users
20130424 18:24:31< fendrin> Well, if we can define a cool way of how things work we might be able to reduce this button.
20130424 18:25:08< LordBob_> Fendrin: on a different subject, 25 pixel icons for the new buttons you required (they're a little blurred by the jpg conversion, but the original is crisped)
20130424 18:25:47< LordBob_> http://imagebin.org/255194
20130424 18:26:07< fendrin> cute
20130424 18:26:30< LordBob_> I'm also trying an alternate for the copy/paste icons (left column) that would feel less foreign among our tools
20130424 18:27:46< fendrin> LordBob_: On the other hand, a painting application is similar to our editor but it is not exactly the same. 
20130424 18:28:00< fendrin> LordBob_: Did you ever make a map with it?
20130424 18:28:06< LordBob_> (I swear, some day a small device user is going to sue us on account of having hurt their eyes from squinting so hard at my tiny icons ^^;;;)
20130424 18:28:42< fendrin> :-)
20130424 18:28:47< LordBob_> I gave it a try over the last few days, since we were discussing many of its functions
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20130424 18:30:12< LordBob_> There are parts that were immediately understandable, such as the draw tool, and others that felt counter intuitive, for instance why does the fill bucket erase the whole map when I had selected a smaller area. Though this might be the habit of my own workflow, and not necessarily how your average user thinks
20130424 18:32:47< fendrin> Say you select a region for programming reasons. That area is triggered when a unit moves in for example. The user wants to paint in that area later. In that case you do not want that fill behavior but the normal one. In a paint program you always select a region to paint.
20130424 18:35:20< fendrin> LordBob_: Your suggestion is difficult to define.
20130424 18:35:51< fendrin> LordBob_: The current fill tool just fills connected tiles of the same terrain.
20130424 18:36:20< fendrin> Should the new behavior do so only if a selection is made and otherwise work like before? 
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20130424 18:36:48< fendrin> Or do you want it do both things, fill a selection if hit but similar terrain tiles otherwise?
20130424 18:37:06< fendrin> I am not sure if that overloading of the function is easy to get.
20130424 18:37:41< LordBob_> I see what you mean. In a painting program, selecting any area automatically restricts the function of any tool to within that area, period. The tools keep doing what they usually do, but only on pixels of the selected are.
20130424 18:37:54< LordBob_> *area
20130424 18:38:29< fendrin> Which makes perfect sense for a painting tool.
20130424 18:39:04< LordBob_> So, for the editor, it would be "fill connected tiles of the same terrain (restricted to within the selected area if a selection exists)"
20130424 18:39:13< fendrin> Well, if you see a hex field as a pixel, there are many similarities.
20130424 18:39:28< LordBob_> Howeve, based on your description, this might not make sense for a workflow that involves more than painting areas
20130424 18:39:42< LordBob_> *However
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20130424 18:40:12< fendrin> Also, we do not have that frame thing.
20130424 18:40:24< fendrin> Selecting an area in the editor is much harder.
20130424 18:40:31< fendrin> Do you see?
20130424 18:41:24< fendrin> LordBob_: However, I could code one.
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20130424 18:42:00< LordBob_> I do. Also, I'm beginning to suspect that your planned "fill selection" tool doesn't work the way I imagined it. It would be more some kind of "overwrite whatever's in the selection with the current foreground/background terrain", wouldn't it ?
20130424 18:42:15< fendrin> yes
20130424 18:42:28< fendrin> The tool is not planned. It is around since ages.
20130424 18:42:34< fendrin> You can use it in the old editor.
20130424 18:42:43< fendrin> It is hidden in the "edit" menu.
20130424 18:42:52< fendrin> Just do a selection and try.
20130424 18:42:59< fendrin> It is using the background.
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20130424 18:44:26< LordBob_> Hmm...Then maybe we could do both, but I don't know if there is a point to it from a user's POV
20130424 18:45:29< LordBob_> I mean, tiles are a lot bigger than pixels so it should be easy enough to create a closed area before applying the fill  
20130424 18:45:53< LordBob_> In which case there's hardly a point to the kind of functionning that I describe
20130424 18:46:38< fendrin> I think the selection tool is mostly used to move finished parts of a map to another place in a larger environment.
20130424 18:47:21< fendrin> And a new use case is the definition of areas which can then by addressed by the scenario scripting.
20130424 18:47:42< fendrin> It is not really a paint tool, what makes it different from a painting programs one.
20130424 18:47:50< LordBob_> Hence the "flip/rotate clipboard" functions. I get it
20130424 18:48:29< LordBob_> I'm glad this allows me to better understand the editor. Sorry to be such a bother.
20130424 18:48:29< fendrin> That is why I would rather group them in pairs. The selection tool is a relative of the paste tool, but it is not really married with either fill or paint.
20130424 18:49:15< fendrin> LordBob_: No, please tell me all your thoughts. You know, when you do work on a certain subject/object to long you develop some kind of Betriebsblindheit.
20130424 18:50:07< fendrin> Betriebsblindheit == professionally blinkered 
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20130424 18:51:19< fendrin> LordBob_: Didn't you mentioned that you had the backgrounds ready for the small gui?
20130424 18:52:07< LordBob_> Yup. Did I not send it ?N
20130424 18:53:22< fendrin> nope
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20130424 18:56:26< LordBob_> Fendrin: that's fixed. I've posted the zip on the forums
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20130424 18:58:39< LordBob_> Note that I left the terrain group icon in 30 pixels. It won't stand out because there are already larger elements below in the palette, so I'd rather avoid the hassle of drawing a new set just for small res screens
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20130424 19:00:45< LordBob_> Fendrin: one thought just hit me. What will happen with tools that have 4+ options on a 800*480 screen ? Restrict the number of available options ?
20130424 19:01:37< fendrin> LordBob_: Every option is at least usable by hotkeys or menues or both.  
20130424 19:01:51< fendrin> LordBob_: I will just leave the unimportant ones away.
20130424 19:02:13< LordBob_> ok
20130424 19:02:32< fendrin> LordBob_: Our GUI for 1024 has a separated panel for minimap/toolbar
20130424 19:02:51< fendrin> LordBob_: The one for the small resolution is a single image for both.
20130424 19:03:16< LordBob_> Yeah. I had initially done that thinking that it might allow to recycle it for the game UI
20130424 19:03:46< fendrin> LordBob_: Both is fine. They don't need to be separated. But It is a little inconvenient for me to code.
20130424 19:04:06< LordBob_> Do you prefer that I cut the smaller screen in the same fashion ? It's really a couple of clicks, here
20130424 19:04:21< fendrin> yes
20130424 19:04:31< LordBob_> Ok, I'll fix that
20130424 19:04:34< fendrin> tx
20130424 19:05:12< LordBob_> Fendrin: just to check, dimensions don't matter; they ket is for you to have the same number of elements ?
20130424 19:05:22< fendrin> yes
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20130424 19:13:58< LordBob_> Fendrin: done. I've updated the zip archive on the forum
20130424 19:14:08< fendrin> tx
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20130424 19:31:08< fendrin> LordBob_: Okay, they work. I wish I had one or more pixel space in the toolbar to make the distance between tools and brushes a little bigger than between the tools.
20130424 19:33:31< fendrin> LordBob_: http://imagebin.org/255202
20130424 19:33:45< LordBob_> fendrin: there's always the possibility to nudge down the palette. I can even make that 3-5 pixels and add a border
20130424 19:34:26< LordBob_> (and the 25 pix icons are almost ready, btw)
20130424 19:34:46< fendrin> LordBob_: Yeah, a border that separates it, like the general purpose ones would be nice.
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20130424 19:37:42< LordBob_> I'll do that
20130424 19:38:41< fendrin> :-)
20130424 19:45:08< fendrin> LordBob_: I would also like to put a "switch fg/bg terrain/item" button left of the palette scroll ones.
20130424 19:47:40< LordBob_> You sure ? It doesn't look to offer much when you can already apply whichever you please with a left or right click
20130424 19:47:51< LordBob_> *seem
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20130424 19:51:56< fendrin> not if your fg/bg is at different groups.
20130424 19:52:29< fendrin> swapping fg/bg makes sense since the bg is used by certain other tools to perform their doing.
20130424 19:53:17< fendrin> LordBob_: About the separator in the upper toolbar, shall I replace it just with empty space or will you provide one? 
20130424 19:55:31< LordBob_> Ok for the switch
20130424 19:56:09< LordBob_> I'll come up with a separator as well: somehow, it looks better with the horizontal line that links together every icon than with empty spaces
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20130424 20:00:02< LordBob_> Fendrin: there is a problem with the horizontal border in the tools frame, though.
20130424 20:00:38< LordBob_> It breaks the grid for the entire frame, which makes it look functional, but clumsy
20130424 20:01:02< fendrin> hmmm
20130424 20:01:21< fendrin> Can you show me?
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20130424 20:07:11< LordBob_> Fendrin: http://imagebin.org/255208
20130424 20:07:25< LordBob_> The lone bottom right button doesn't look very good
20130424 20:07:50< fendrin> LordBob_: Make the inner borders a little smaller
20130424 20:08:08< LordBob_> I can extend the border to dissipate that feeling, but from a functional point of view it doesn't make much sense
20130424 20:11:24< LordBob_> Fendrin : Huh ? I don't get it 
20130424 20:11:40< LordBob_> Oh, wait, i do
20130424 20:14:31< LordBob_> Fendrin: a better compromise ?
20130424 20:14:47< LordBob_> http://imagebin.org/255209
20130424 20:16:48< perennate> Are savegames the same for a given game in mp for all of the players?
20130424 20:17:24< perennate> I was thinking of using it for pedantic mode to just calculate CRC on the same data as is in the savegame file, sending to server, and have server compare
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20130424 20:19:48< fendrin> LordBob_: Yes, the last one is fine.
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20130424 22:10:46< zpankr> Hello :)
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20130424 22:17:52< Espreon> zpankr: Hello.
20130424 22:18:49-!- timotei21 [~pi@wesnoth/developer/timotei] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20130424 22:21:06< zpankr> Espreon: Heya, I've been following GSoC for a while, and Battle for Wesnoth seems like a project I'd love to work on
20130424 22:21:13< zpankr> (as a student)
20130424 22:22:16< Espreon> OK.
20130424 22:22:45< Espreon> Got any questions or anything?
20130424 22:22:59< Espreon> Sadly, I'm not a magickal genie that can just show the way.
20130424 22:23:40< zpankr> haha well they recommended I'd get a hang of the dev community a bit before signing up :)
20130424 22:23:53< Espreon> OK.
20130424 22:23:59< zpankr> I have one question though
20130424 22:24:02< Espreon> Yeah?
20130424 22:24:19< bumbadadabum> Espreon: You're not a magical genie?
20130424 22:24:21< bumbadadabum> :[
20130424 22:24:27< zpankr> I only have a basic level of C++, but I've worked for a long while in Lua (and other languages)
20130424 22:24:50< zpankr> haha I have some magical procrastination every once in a while
20130424 22:26:08< zpankr> I have a good learning curve for programming though, and I'm pretty versed at the concept and logic behind it, I'm just not familiar with the syntax of C++, is it still alright? :p
20130424 22:27:08< Espreon> Uh... ... ... well... I'm not sure, to be honest.
20130424 22:27:24< Espreon> If your code reading skills and your research skills are great, then maybe you'll do.
20130424 22:27:41< Espreon> If your code reading skills are crap, well... then... I don't think you'll do...
20130424 22:27:45< Espreon> I dunno.
20130424 22:27:47< zpankr> alright great ^^
20130424 22:27:58< Espreon> From what I know, Wesnoth's codebase is a monster.
20130424 22:28:06< Espreon> ... a dreadful abomination.
20130424 22:28:15< zpankr> I've only started looking at the tip of it
20130424 22:28:39< Espreon> bumbadadabum: Of course not.
20130424 22:28:48< Espreon> zpankr: So I see.
20130424 22:29:14< zpankr> Anyway, how many people are you planning on catching from gsoc this year? :)
20130424 22:29:46< Espreon> I myself have no clue whatsoever.
20130424 22:29:50< vultraz> No clue
20130424 22:29:51< Espreon> I have nothing to do with GSoC.
20130424 22:30:01< Espreon> vultraz: ... you don't either.
20130424 22:30:02< vultraz> Several applicants, no idea how many slots are open
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20130424 22:30:36< zpankr> hehe do you know who does?
20130424 22:30:37< vultraz> Espreon only does translation work
20130424 22:31:10< zpankr> Oh I'm also versed in english/portuguese translation if that's of any help one day
20130424 22:31:16< Espreon> vultraz: ... and other things.
20130424 22:31:19< vultraz> zpankr: Crab_, when he's around. mordante, when he's around. Probably shadowm.
20130424 22:31:36< Espreon> zpankr: If you want to help the Portuguese translations, talk to trewe.
20130424 22:31:59< zpankr> vultraz: alright thank you ^^
20130424 22:32:32< Espreon> zpankr: and yes, I mean both the Portuguese Portuguese and the Brazilian Portuguese translations.
20130424 22:32:55< vultraz> Espreon: there's more than one Portuguese? *blank stare*
20130424 22:33:06< zpankr> Good! As a portuguese from portugal I find that comforting tbh
20130424 22:33:08< bumbadadabum> Espreon: Didn't trewe just do the european one?
20130424 22:33:17< Espreon> vultraz: Yes.
20130424 22:33:29< Espreon> bumbadadabum: He's managing the Brazilian one too.
20130424 22:33:34< bumbadadabum> oh ok
20130424 22:33:41< vultraz> I thought they spoke Spanish in Brazil
20130424 22:33:46< zpankr> haha
20130424 22:33:51< bumbadadabum> vultraz: Get out
20130424 22:34:01< Espreon> ... or at least I think he is.
20130424 22:34:07< zpankr> they speak this weird modified portuguese there
20130424 22:34:10< bumbadadabum> join the people in the links I sent you
20130424 22:34:33< Espreon> Not modified... just different.
20130424 22:34:59< Espreon> (LOL)
20130424 22:35:02< zpankr> Alright let me rephrase that, awful distorted portuguese
20130424 22:35:51< zpankr> But there's 10 of them for each of us so I don't complain haha
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20130424 22:52:44< mattsc> zpankr: there will likely only be 2 or 3 GSoC slots in Wesnoth this year
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20130424 22:56:57< zpankr> mattsc: oh alright thanks :D
20130424 22:57:21< Nephro> hi mattsc... I wanted to ask this question for a while but always forgot to: did you feel the need of filters only for MTT ca's or other ones too?
20130424 22:57:59< zpankr> Hey, I don't have a definite project to add to Wesnoth, I was thinking something along the lines of helping out with anything and everything you could throw at me
20130424 22:59:40< Nephro> zpankr: that is not really how it works, you have two options: you can select a project idea from the list or you can propose your own project for the summer.
20130424 22:59:56< mattsc> Hi Nephro: the MTT CA is the one where I have encountered the need for it several times.  There are several AIs in which I either could not do at all what I wanted, or only with great difficulty.
20130424 23:00:06< mattsc> But it would be useful for all CAs, no question.
20130424 23:00:43< zpankr> Nephro: Okay thank you
20130424 23:01:43< mattsc> zpankr: yes, as Nephro says.  One of the acceptance criteria is the strength of your proposal, and "I'll help out where needed" isn't all that strong.  :)
20130424 23:02:00< Nephro> I just think it should be done for all CA's in a uniform matter, since if I do it for one mtt and then some1 decides that he really needs it for some other CA it will become a mess
20130424 23:02:28< mattsc> Nephro: I agree entirely
20130424 23:04:04< LordBob_> Fendrin: you there ?
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 25 00:00:04 2013