--- Log opened Thu Apr 11 00:00:53 2013
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20130411 00:15:46< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18072 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 00:15:46< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: removed mages from plot
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20130411 01:09:10< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r18073 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/utils/amla.cfg: 
20130411 01:09:11< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: fix a forgotten case of ability name on first line of description
20130411 01:09:43< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r18074 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/scenarios/15_Save_the_heir.cfg: 
20130411 01:09:44< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: use 1.11's micro AIs in Save_the_heir, improve allied behavior
20130411 01:10:36< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r18075 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20130411 01:10:37< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: new version of "force to heal" AI tweak
20130411 01:10:37< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: -should now work also for passive leaders
20130411 01:10:38< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: -independent from the unit gotos
20130411 01:10:38< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: -chooses also non-predefined but owned villages
20130411 01:11:08< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: anonymissimus * r18076 /trunk/The_Earths_Gut/scenarios/15_Save_the_heir.cfg: 
20130411 01:11:08< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: TEG: use new "force to heal" code
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20130411 03:36:38< mattsc> Hey skyfaller_!  How are things?
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20130411 03:37:30< skyfaller> hey mattsc, they're OK... I got kind of demoralized after a series of ladder losses, including a game that I really should have won
20130411 03:37:41< mattsc> :(
20130411 03:39:04< skyfaller> I was playing elves vs. orcs, and he had much more units and territory but I had several lvl2s and lvl3s...
20130411 03:39:29< mattsc> But he grunt rushed you?
20130411 03:39:29< skyfaller> I wiped out his army but didn't follow up correctly and he rebuilt his army before I got my act together...
20130411 03:39:55< skyfaller> yeah, he had the income to continually rebuild armies and claim my territory, despite the staggering losses I inflicted on him
20130411 03:40:00< mattsc> lvl3's in an MP game?  That's impressive.
20130411 03:40:10< skyfaller> oh yes, the game went like 40 or 50 turns
20130411 03:40:18< mattsc> I see.
20130411 03:40:20< skyfaller> he had no lvl2s, I killed them all
20130411 03:40:43< mattsc> Well, I just told shadowm that I find it much harder to play against an enemy with a constant high income than against a couple large waves.  :)
20130411 03:40:55< mattsc> That was in a completely different context though.
20130411 03:40:55< skyfaller> yeah...
20130411 03:41:15< skyfaller> I still would have won, actually, but he got desperate and tried for an extremely unlikely leaderkill and it worked
20130411 03:41:28< skyfaller> he had 2 hexes on my perfectly healthy white mage leader at daytime
20130411 03:41:29< mattsc> Ah, that sucks.
20130411 03:41:38< skyfaller> it didn't even occur to me that I could lose my leader in one round
20130411 03:41:48< mattsc> right ...
20130411 03:42:11< skyfaller> but first he suicided a grunt, my white mage leader had to get BOTH STRIKES on the grunt for it to die
20130411 03:42:27< skyfaller> and the other two units got all their hits
20130411 03:42:38< skyfaller> game over
20130411 03:42:49< mattsc> Grrr
20130411 03:43:32< skyfaller> the observers told me after the game that I should have attacked after I wiped out his first army
20130411 03:44:04< mattsc> Actually, this sounds kind of familiar.  In the last scenario of Grnk I have mages (and up) fighting against undead (and others).
20130411 03:45:05< mattsc> The problem with the Mage of Lights is that they can easily kill skeletons in a single attack, so I get them killed because they have to face 10 skeletons in a single round.  :P
20130411 03:45:16< skyfaller> hahaha
20130411 03:45:31< skyfaller> tricky
20130411 03:45:38< mattsc> Yep.
20130411 03:45:43< mattsc> Anyways, that sucks, man.
20130411 03:45:58< skyfaller> It's OK... I guess I'm not fully over it, but I'll recover
20130411 03:46:06< skyfaller> Wesnoth is like poker, you shouldn't play it when upset
20130411 03:46:09< mattsc> (hmm, that should probably be Mages of Light, shouldn't it?)
20130411 03:46:17< skyfaller> yes, Mages of Light :)
20130411 03:46:19< mattsc> yeah
20130411 03:47:08< mattsc> Well, I *think* that I am finally at the point where I'm done with optimizing code and can go on to actually improving Fred's behavior.
20130411 03:47:14< skyfaller> yay!
20130411 03:47:20< mattsc> Of course, this isn't the first time I have thought that...
20130411 03:47:45< mattsc> I just have so little time for Wesnoth these days ...
20130411 03:48:10< skyfaller> I understand completely
20130411 03:48:10< mattsc> Well, I guess if I stopped playing campaigns I would have more time for coding AIs.  :)
20130411 03:49:14< skyfaller> so what is your involvement with mainline Wesnoth these days? I think it's cool you're not just doing an add-on anymore
20130411 03:49:20< mattsc> But yeah, besides that, life's gotten kind of busy lately.  Or at least I don't have the luxury of ignoring for a silly computer game at the moment.  ;)
20130411 03:49:53< skyfaller> ah yes, how is the telescope doing? Are you in Hawaii seeing to it?
20130411 03:50:02< mattsc> Well, the big thing is that we got the Micro AIs into mainline.
20130411 03:50:22< mattsc> Not yet.  Not even close yet (on the telescope).
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20130411 03:50:49< mattsc> And people are starting to use them (MAIs), so I'm getting some feedback on them, which is great.
20130411 03:51:08< mattsc> Besides that, I tinker with AI code a bit here and there, but nothing big atm.
20130411 03:51:32< skyfaller> the real question is, how close are Fred and Ron to getting into mainline? :)
20130411 03:51:55< mattsc> Well, Ron is in mainline.  Alarantalara did that for 1.11.1
20130411 03:52:01< skyfaller> oh wow, that's awesome
20130411 03:52:21< mattsc> If you select "Experimental AI" (I think), that's Ron.
20130411 03:52:28< skyfaller> fantastic
20130411 03:52:33< skyfaller> I'm so proud of us
20130411 03:52:37< mattsc> :)
20130411 03:53:05< mattsc> And I think Fred is close to what I'd call "not horrible".
20130411 03:53:28< mattsc> But I don't want to make a guess as to how long that last bit is going to take me.  I've been wrong with that too often.
20130411 03:54:03< skyfaller> what I'd really like to do is teach Fred to talk smack ;-) I like when he complains about luck with the assassin...
20130411 03:54:30< mattsc> Hey, you have commit access, you could teach him that.  :)
20130411 03:54:49< mattsc> But I think I am getting there with Fred.  I've kind of changed my attitude.
20130411 03:55:03< skyfaller> how is your attitude different?
20130411 03:55:07< mattsc> So far it was: we can't do counter attack calculations for most things because it takes too much time.
20130411 03:55:21< mattsc> Now it is: we need counter attack calculations, make it work.
20130411 03:56:20< mattsc> Obviously, we still can't do full CCA evals, so I've been working on ways of getting approximate results that are good enough for the most part.
20130411 03:56:39< mattsc> It seems to be working for most things, but I have not implemented them everywhere yet.
20130411 03:56:57< mattsc> And then there's all the fine tuning, of course, which could take forever.
20130411 03:57:53< skyfaller> well, I'm happy to test whenever you like
20130411 03:58:03< mattsc> Anyways, that's where we're at at the moment.  Hopefully we can keep Fred from making stupid mistakes all the time and reduce it to half the time or something ...
20130411 03:58:31< mattsc> I'm hopeful that that will be soon(ish)
20130411 03:59:55< mattsc> Well, got to get back to other parts of life.  'twas nice chatting briefly.
20130411 04:00:12< skyfaller> OK, stay in touch and let me know what I can do to help :)
20130411 04:00:25< mattsc> Will do.  Take care.
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20130411 06:27:08< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18077 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 06:27:08< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: updated plot summary
20130411 06:35:42< vultraz> shikadibot: log 18077
20130411 06:35:44<+shikadibot> vultraz: Revision 18077 (vultraz) on Thu Apr 11 04:26:53 2013:
20130411 06:35:44<+shikadibot> vultraz: NX: updated plot summary
20130411 06:35:44<+shikadibot> vultraz: Web interface URL: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev?view=rev&revision=18077
20130411 06:36:08< vultraz> oh wait not what I need
20130411 06:36:14< vultraz> shikadibot: dir trunk
20130411 06:36:14<+shikadibot> vultraz: Web interface URL to dir trunk: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk
20130411 06:40:51< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18078 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 06:40:52< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: plotnote spelling corrections
20130411 06:47:57< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18079 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 06:47:58< irker102> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: tiny grammar tweak
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20130411 12:55:55< irker797> wesnoth-umc-dev: mrdarkunknown * r18080 /trunk/World_of_Wesnoth/ (11 files in 7 dirs): 
20130411 12:55:55< irker797> wesnoth-umc-dev: Added support for summons, made skills that Hunter obtains until level 7 work (later skills will not work, but higher levels of previous ones will).
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20130411 14:47:01< irker797> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18081 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 14:47:01< irker797> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: removed reference to the Lintanir war
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20130411 16:07:04< irker797> AI-Demos: mattsc master * r3e9298c / lua/grunt-rush-Freelands-S1_engine.lua : Fred zone attack: remove a conditional that's always false - http://git.io/Tay-_g
20130411 16:07:05< irker797> Leftover from a previous test whether a target was valid, that got
20130411 16:07:05< irker797> removed here:
20130411 16:07:06< irker797> https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-AI-Demos/commit/428febfd53d5834f9946bf
20130411 16:07:06< irker797> c79fcbefd22ea4edf4
20130411 16:07:31< mattsc> Uh ...
20130411 16:07:58< mattsc> Apparently I disabled most attacks of Fred 3 weeks ago and he still won against the RCA AI  :P
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20130411 16:10:32< AI0867> did you fix that in 3e9298?
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20130411 16:30:31< mattsc> AI0867: yes.  Fred now attacks again.
20130411 16:31:14< mattsc> I've been working entirely on speeding up things recently, so all my tests have been in nogui mode.
20130411 16:31:55< mattsc> And since Fred was still winning overall, I didn't notice this.  The moment I actually watched a game, it was absolutely obvious.
20130411 16:59:40< skyfaller> how did he win without attacks?
20130411 17:00:46< AI0867> by positioning himself so well that the RCA killed itself by attacking suicidally, as usual
20130411 17:00:54< AI0867> or so I'm guessing
20130411 17:01:24< mattsc> skyfaller: yes, what AI0867 says, plus trapping and poison attacks were still left (but those aren't used all that often)
20130411 17:01:53< mattsc> Also, the RCA CAs still attacked at the end of the turn if Fred's units happened to end up next to enemy units.
20130411 17:02:56< mattsc> Very non-ideal situation, but apparently together with the rest of the behavior (e.g. positioning and village grabbing) that was enough
20130411 17:08:12< skyfaller> makes me wonder about a pacifist AI that only attacks when it absolutely HAS to...
20130411 17:09:59< mattsc> skyfaller: we could set something like that up, but in a general setting it would lose against the RCA AI
20130411 17:10:23< skyfaller> why is this scenario special?
20130411 17:10:59< mattsc> The attack-at-all-cost strategy is amazingly effective, and from what I have seen, the main reason is choice of weapon
20130411 17:11:27< mattsc> However, we do have one of those AIs and it wins most of the time: the Bottleneck Defense MAI
20130411 17:12:09< mattsc> It just sits there and only attacks when it is safe  (I guess that's not quite the same as "when it has to", but similar)
20130411 17:12:55< skyfaller> but if Fred was able to win with most of his attacks disabled...
20130411 17:13:02< vultraz> Wait, we have uber-good ai now?
20130411 17:13:41< mattsc> skyfaller: "most", but not "all".  And he's winning much more easily when attacking.
20130411 17:14:26< mattsc> vultraz: depends if you call 93% win rate against the RCA AI über-good.  I don't.
20130411 17:14:44< vultraz> why?
20130411 17:14:55< mattsc> Because it still sucks against human players.
20130411 17:14:55< skyfaller> because humans still clobber it easily
20130411 17:15:39< vultraz> oh
20130411 17:16:30< mattsc> vultraz: Fred's doing much better than the RCA (on Freelands, at least), but he still makes way too many mistakes.
20130411 17:16:57< mattsc> I'm working on it.  Unfortunately, I don't have much time atm, so it's very slow progress.
20130411 17:17:50< mattsc> Btw, it's funny how I refer to Fred sometimes as "he" and sometimes as "it".  :P
20130411 17:18:22< skyfaller> Don't hurt his feelings :(
20130411 17:18:57< mattsc> Yeah, he might get pissed and beat the crap out of the next player he faces  :)
20130411 17:20:29< vultraz> :P
20130411 17:21:07< vultraz> The only way you'll make a really good ai against a human is to make it think like a human
20130411 17:21:40< skyfaller> that's certainly not true
20130411 17:21:50< skyfaller> do you think Deep Blue thought like a human at all?
20130411 17:21:59< vultraz> well, dynamically like a human
20130411 17:22:08< vultraz> but not make human mistakes
20130411 17:22:18< skyfaller> so not like a human :)
20130411 17:22:24< vultraz> since if the ai does the same thing all the time, you'll beat it eventually
20130411 17:24:15< vultraz> amd asjjkfhkjf I want to take an axe to my modem, Johnny-style right now
20130411 17:24:45< vultraz> CONNECTION Y U NO LET ME WATCH ONLINE TV
20130411 17:30:01< vultraz> I feel like a necromancer, reciting black magic from ancient tomes to keep my connection alive
20130411 17:31:51< vultraz> and then offering burnt offerings to Zeus that he might allow my connection to go uninterrupted 
20130411 17:33:17< vultraz> noooooooo
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20130411 19:28:08< irker231> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz * r18082 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 19:28:08< irker231> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: summary tweaks
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20130411 20:28:55< irker231> wesnoth-umc-dev: c74d * r18083 /trunk/NX-RPG/plotnotes.txt: 
20130411 20:28:56< irker231> wesnoth-umc-dev: NX: Edited plotnotes for clarity, as I understand them.
20130411 20:28:56< irker231> wesnoth-umc-dev: vultraz: Is this correct? Feel free to revert.
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--- Log opened Thu Apr 11 21:00:37 2013
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20130411 21:01:48-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project discussion and support channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867, Espreon | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net
20130411 21:01:48-!- Topic set by shadowm [] [Mon Aug 27 11:27:23 2012]
20130411 21:01:48[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev]
20130411 21:01:48[@ChanServ  ] [ ancestral   ] [ irker231   ] [ melinath ] [ wesbot   ] 
20130411 21:01:48[+loonybot  ] [ bumbadadabum] [ iwaim      ] [ noy      ] [ zookeeper] 
20130411 21:01:48[+shikadibot] [ Espreon     ] [ lobby      ] [ shadowm  ] 
20130411 21:01:48[ _8680_    ] [ fendrin     ] [ loonycyborg] [ skyfaller] 
20130411 21:01:48[ AI0867    ] [ happygrue   ] [ mattsc     ] [ vultraz  ] 
20130411 21:01:48-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-umc-dev: Total of 22 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 19 normal]
20130411 21:01:48-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net
20130411 21:02:03-!- Channel #wesnoth-umc-dev created Mon Mar 31 16:51:24 2008
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 12 00:00:51 2013