--- Log opened Fri May 03 00:00:22 2013
--- Day changed Fri May 03 2013
20130503 00:00:22< mattsc> Oh, ok.  Can you send me the link again?
20130503 00:00:54< Zazweda> of ?
20130503 00:01:23< mattsc> What Crab_ told you
20130503 00:01:44< Zazweda> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/zazweda/1#c4001
20130503 00:03:38< mattsc> uh?  Where is Crab_'s comment?  I want to know what he told you so that I know what to assume
20130503 00:03:57< Zazweda> wait
20130503 00:06:55< mattsc> Zazweda: so here's what's going on.
20130503 00:07:24< Zazweda> k
20130503 00:07:42< mattsc> Currently, whenever you use a Lua AI, you need to define the engine in the [side] tag.  As in, it has to be the [side] tag itself, [modify_side] does not work.
20130503 00:08:05< Zazweda> mhm
20130503 00:08:47< mattsc> Thus, if you want to combine different AIs (or MAIs), you either need to define an engine that contains all possible AI code (lots of unused overhead) or come up with some scheme to set up the engine dynamically.
20130503 00:09:10< mattsc> The latter is possible, but I'm too lazy for that because an easier method is already mostly implemented:
20130503 00:09:31< mattsc> (hold on, trying to find the link)
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20130503 00:10:39< mattsc> Grrr.  I have it bookmarked somewhere, but Google is easier...  :P
20130503 00:10:45< mattsc> External CAs: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Luaai_new_syntax
20130503 00:11:38< mattsc> They work, but two things are needed to make them fully usable.  1. Passing of parameters to them from the [candidate_action] tag
20130503 00:11:53< mattsc> 2. The existence of a persistent variable across the CAs.
20130503 00:12:22< mattsc> So that's the job, figuring out how to get those 2 things done.
20130503 00:12:27< Zazweda> ok
20130503 00:12:36< Zazweda> As I said I'm currentlt in exams :( 
20130503 00:12:56< Zazweda> I'll start thinking about it, I will not be trying anything until tuesday
20130503 00:13:45< mattsc> Ok, sounds good.
20130503 00:14:07< mattsc> The person who's set up the extCAs to this point is Nephro (sometimes also on here as neph).
20130503 00:14:32< Zazweda> ok
20130503 00:14:36< mattsc> Oh, hi, nphro_.  You here?
20130503 00:14:55< nphro_> hello
20130503 00:15:25< mattsc> It would probably be good for the two of you to hook up on this sometime.  First, he knows this much better than anybody (other than maybe Crab_), and we don't want to step on his toes either  :)
20130503 00:15:26< Zazweda> hi :)
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20130503 00:16:41< mattsc> And with that, I have to run off for now.  I'll be on again in a couple hours, and I'll read the logs.  (Or forum PM works too, as you know.)
20130503 00:16:55< nphro_> cya mattsc 
20130503 00:16:56< mattsc> Btw, Zazweda: don't know if you saw it, but the zone guardian is in mainline now.
20130503 00:17:16< mattsc> cheers nphro_ 
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20130503 00:17:27< Zazweda> mattsc: nice ! :)
20130503 00:17:38< Zazweda> thanks
20130503 00:17:44< nphro_> Zazweda, I've got an exam in like 9 hours which I am getting prepared for now. How about we chat tomorrow afternoon?
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20130503 00:18:05< Zazweda> well I have some exam next week so tuesday afternoon ^^" ?
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20130503 00:19:47< nphro_> suits me
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20130503 00:20:59< Zazweda> Ok ! good luck
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20130503 03:26:11< goossenm> Hi! I discovered the Wesnoth project page for GSoC last night, I have a couple questions about it, is there anyone on that can help me?
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20130503 03:27:47< Espreon> Perhaps I could help.
20130503 03:27:51< mattsc> goossenm: depends on what questions you have.  It's better to ask a specific question.
20130503 03:28:00< Espreon> Indeed.
20130503 03:28:06< mattsc> Oh... Hi Espreon :)
20130503 03:29:15< Espreon> Oh, why hello there, mattsc.
20130503 03:29:21< Espreon> win 25
20130503 03:29:24< Espreon> Oops.
20130503 03:29:49< mattsc> mac 10.6.8  :D
20130503 03:29:58< goossenm> Well I don't have any experiance with coding games, would that be a problem?
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20130503 03:31:33< mattsc> goossenm: if you have other coding experience, you can probably figure this out pretty quickly.  The main problem right now is that you have less than 24 hours to get your application in with Google.
20130503 03:32:41< goossenm> Yea, the deadline snuck up on me while I was occupied by school...
20130503 03:32:47< nurupo> ~17 hours
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20130503 03:35:20< nurupo> goossenm: wesnoth has mostly Artificial Intelegence projects. it's plus if you know LUA, have played wesnoth against AI and humans to get feel what AI lacks
20130503 03:42:10< Espreon> Why does everyone write "LUA"?
20130503 03:42:18< Espreon> It's "Lua".
20130503 03:42:39 * vultraz writes "Lua"
20130503 03:42:53< Espreon> Well, you don't count, vultraz.
20130503 03:43:03< vultraz> ...
20130503 03:46:23< mattsc> Espreon: because few people know Portuguese?
20130503 03:46:43< Espreon> I don't know Portuguese.
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20130503 04:58:47< jleldridge> Is there anyone on that can make jleldridge on the forums a Google Summer of Code account?
20130503 04:59:27< mattsc> shadowm: ^
20130503 05:02:10< shadowm> jleldridge: Done.
20130503 05:02:17< jleldridge> Thank you :)
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20130503 05:04:07< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 06e8969 / data/ai/lua/ai_helper.lua: Update ai_helper library http://git.io/JnoUQA
20130503 05:04:09< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 83ea570 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/goto.cfg: Add Goto Micro AI scenario http://git.io/y9gEbQ
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20130503 05:16:44< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * a7ccb1c / data/ (3 files): Add Goto Micro AI functionality http://git.io/GA_Uxw
20130503 05:20:53< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * e3b358c / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/scenario-micro_ai.cfg: Add Goto Micro AI code to MAI switchboard scenario http://git.io/O_pvzw
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20130503 05:24:10< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * b75f2a0 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/goto.cfg: Goto MAI scenario: update lurker MAI SUF and SLF to new syntax http://git.io/2AUi5w
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20130503 05:47:49< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * d3c1309 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/goto.cfg: Goto Micro AI scenario: some changes to messages to make wmllint happy http://git.io/hrBsAA
20130503 05:54:17< irker607> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 61d0f53 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/goto.cfg: Goto Micro AI scenario: remove unneeded wmllint exception. http://git.io/xSivMQ
20130503 05:54:59< mattsc> Argh, I need to stop.  This is deteriorating quickly ...  :P
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20130503 06:38:10< vinipsmaker> how can I add my idea to this page ( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Addon_Server_2013 )?
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20130503 06:42:12< vinipsmaker> mordante: can you review my proposal ( http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Vinipsmaker/GSoC13 ) later?
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20130503 09:04:43< Ren_> wasn't expecting this many people
20130503 09:06:25< Ren_> is anybody available to talk?
20130503 09:06:41< timotei> Ren_, maybe yes, maybe no.
20130503 09:06:52< timotei> Just leave your message and somebody will respond when is available.
20130503 09:09:39< Ren_> I just found about GSoC
20130503 09:10:02< Ren_> and deadline is in around 12 hours
20130503 09:10:42< Ren_> I just looked at the ideas page a bit
20130503 09:11:33-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20130503 09:11:36< Ren_> it seems like each student needs an idea to improve wesnoth ahead of time?
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20130503 09:17:46< Ren_> oh I think I understand it now
20130503 09:18:19< Ren_> looks like there are ideas already approved as projects and students can submit proposals for those
20130503 09:18:32< Ren_> as well as submit their own idea
20130503 09:19:00< Ren_> am I getting that right?
20130503 09:19:23< ptalbot> Ren_, the most of the idea and proposal are for ideas proposed by Wesnoth maintainer
20130503 09:19:26< timotei> yes Ren_. You can either submit your own idea, or chose one
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20130503 09:20:37< Trademark_> Ren_, but it's a bit late to participate this year, unless you work on it like hell until the deadline
20130503 09:20:57< kelpy> Ren_: you also have only twelve hours to submit. good luck!
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20130503 09:21:38< Ren_> thanks, I plan on working my butt off to finish by the deadline
20130503 09:22:04< Trademark_> Ren_, in fact, for this project, you must write your proposal on the wiki and continue to improve it after the deadline, so the first deadline doesn't really matter (you just need to submit to google the link to the wiki page)
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20130503 09:22:48< Ren_> oh, that's a little relieving
20130503 09:23:41< Ren_> it looks like there are a lot of AI ideas up right now
20130503 09:24:46< Ren_> are there any resources around about the game's AI?
20130503 09:25:03< Ren_> I have only found the create page from the main site so far
20130503 09:26:28< Ren_> I guess it would be in the game's code
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20130503 09:30:29< kelpy> Ren_: the ai pages are pretty spread out. try a google search for 'wesnoth ai'
20130503 09:30:29< Crab_> Ren_: the deadline is to submit a project to google's tracker, right. We encourage students to work after that, there's like 2-3 weeks of time available (e.g. some people just have exams at wrong time, etc)
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20130503 09:31:29< Crab_> Ren_: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Module - source code locations (slightly obsolete); http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#how_AI_works.2C_a_short_developer-oriented_overview - overview ; also see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior
20130503 09:31:44< Crab_> Ren_: you're also welcome to ask questions
20130503 09:32:25< Ren_> very nice, sometimes I forget to ask google first!
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20130503 09:32:44< Ren_> yeah I understand the google deadline is most important
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20130503 09:33:13< Ren_> I just like to have a small idea of what the projects would look like before I pick one for the proposal
20130503 09:36:30< Crab_> Ren_: AI projects: recruitment is the easiest AI project (it's a rewrite of our recruitment logic to be better).  defence improvements is hard unless you played wesnoth a lot, and it's also partially a research project. 'improve AI in mainline campaigns' is a mix of a lot of various small AI-related things; in general, having Wesnoth experience would really help with those projects.
20130503 09:37:23< Crab_> Ren_: for non-AI stuff, MP campaign support would require a lot of C++ coding in the game engine, some big refactorings. it'll also require to work with campaign developers to find bugs, fix them, and make things great
20130503 09:38:20< Crab_> Ren_: and about the addon server, ask mordante and read other proposals submitted for this idea, to learn details.
20130503 09:38:29< Ren_> I'm not sure what you'd call a lot, but I have played wesnoth a fair bit and do have some c++ experience
20130503 09:38:44< Ren_> I might want to stick to easier stuff though
20130503 09:39:11< Ren_> I like a challenge but sometimes you gotta pick the more even battles
20130503 09:40:32< Crab_> Ren_: then picking any project apart from the 'improve AI defense' one would be a good idea.
20130503 09:41:24< Crab_> Ren_: And we'd really want to see your coding skills (Wesnoth-related stuff - e.g. patches/bugfixes/demos)
20130503 09:41:36< Ren_> thanks for the descriptions, that definitely saved me lot of time
20130503 09:42:22< Crab_> Ren_: as you understand, it's very risky to consider a student who hasn't submitted any Wesnoth code examples before summer. So, getting 1-2 patches/bugfixes (they should be in wesnoth, but can be random bugfixes, not related to your project) is a very important thing to do.
20130503 09:42:53< Crab_> Ren_: you still have 2-3 weeks to do it
20130503 09:45:19< Ren_> anybody else get the gna connection untrusted notification?
20130503 09:46:42< Ren_> I followed the bugs.wesnoth.org link and got that
20130503 09:47:28< Crab_> Ren_: yes, it's always like this there.
20130503 09:48:13< Crab_> Ren_: they're using a certificate issued by http://www.cacert.org , which is usually not trusted by default in mainline browsers.
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20130503 09:50:27< Ren_> good to know. I've been around a bunch of security guys lately
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20130503 09:50:51< Ren_> my security paranoia level had no choice but to go up
20130503 09:51:44< aliter42> How to join the Wesnoth Developer Group ?
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20130503 09:55:14< Crab_> Ren_: :))
20130503 09:56:02< Ren_> I'll take a look at some bugs after I finish my proposal for sure
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20130503 10:02:03< aliter42_> Hi everyone! Could someone help me in how to join the Developers at Wesnoth ?
20130503 10:03:07< Crab_> aliter42_: hello! 
20130503 10:03:50< Crab_> aliter42_: Joining an open-source project is usually easy - you just get the source (currently https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old ) and start hacking
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20130503 10:04:42< Crab_> aliter42_: At wesnoth, the policy is as follows:  at first, you submit patches with your changes, and after two of your patches (one of them should be non-trivial) are accepted, we ask you if you want to have write access to our repository.
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20130503 10:06:00< aliter42_> Thanks for help!
20130503 10:06:21< aliter42_> I am a beginner here.
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20130503 10:11:13< PL_kolek> Crab_, I'm the author of the patch that you said yesterday is wrong
20130503 10:11:57< PL_kolek> Crab_, I don't know if Shofixti doesn't "steal" this bug from me, but in case I'll work on this.
20130503 10:12:43< PL_kolek> Is the code in gamestatus.cpp duplicated in team.cpp?
20130503 10:12:44< Crab_> PL_kolek: hello! you're welcome to continue work on it. Sorry, I hadn't seen the patch before talking with Shofixti yesterday. 
20130503 10:13:03< Crab_> PL_kolek: the patch is not 'wrong', but I just want the duplication to be fixed.
20130503 10:13:38< Crab_> PL_kolek: gamestatus.cpp has 'set default gold to 100 if there's no defined gold' part, team.cpp has it as well
20130503 10:13:55< PL_kolek> Then the work to do is refactor the codee so that everything is done in gamestatus.cpp withour duplication and make that carryover is called even in the first scenario?
20130503 10:14:09< Crab_> PL_kolek: yes. even before first scenario
20130503 10:14:28< Crab_> probably, just doing carryover with empty carryover info will make everything ok.
20130503 10:15:06< Crab_> carryover has two parts, 'from scenario to carryover info' and 'from carryover info to scenario'
20130503 10:15:19< PL_kolek> Crab_, OK then, seems a little bit more ambitious than my one-liner, I like that. When I have some time I'll do it.
20130503 10:15:32< Crab_> it looks like the second part ('from carryover info to scenario') should be called even before first scenario.
20130503 10:15:36< Crab_> thanks
20130503 10:15:59< PL_kolek> No problem, that's in my interest too to get it fixed
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20130503 10:18:15< Crab_> PL_kolek: anything else that I can help you with?
20130503 10:21:32< Crab_> PL_kolek: also, an important note - you must register on Google's tracker (if you haven't already, under a different nickname). the deadline is 19:00 UTC, today - it's very soon
20130503 10:22:13< Crab_> PL_kolek: we can only select students from those who have a proposal in http://www.google-melange.com/
20130503 10:24:30< PL_kolek> Crab_, thanks, right now I'm polishing my proposal. I'll submit when it's done. If you have some spare time, you could review it and criticise me to make it better.
20130503 10:24:46< Crab_> PL_kolek: I recommend submitting to google now (with a link to your wiki proposal)
20130503 10:25:20< PL_kolek> Crab_, I wouldn't forget, but to be sure I'll apply now.
20130503 10:25:20< Crab_> PL_kolek: you can change your proposal after the deadline. but if, for example, your internet connection goes down for half a day and you'll not be able to submit a proposal to google, that would be very unlucky and not good.
20130503 10:25:53< Crab_> PL_kolek: It's just that things like 'inet connection down' happened to some people in the past.
20130503 10:26:05< PL_kolek> Crab_, right.
20130503 10:27:26< nurupo> if I do commit to the git repository, it won't be commited before one of developers passes it through, right? don't want to accidently commit my patch right into the trunk
20130503 10:27:39< Crab_> nurupo: right
20130503 10:27:47< nurupo> okay :)
20130503 10:28:00< Crab_> PL_kolek: people miscalculate the deadline (e.g. US students think that it's until 19'00 in their timezone) or miss it for variety of reasons all the time, and google is not making exceptions.
20130503 10:28:52< nurupo> Crab_: proposal deadline http://tinyurl.com/cg526v7
20130503 10:29:22< nurupo> they even made a count down for it, which actually helps a lot
20130503 10:30:30< Crab_> nurupo: thanks. Yes, but not everybody checks. and internet/power can also obey the 'Whatever can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way.' law :)
20130503 10:30:34< PL_kolek> nurupo, I thought that it's google made countdown, but those iPhone apps at the bottom didn't fit into the picture ;)
20130503 10:34:16< nurupo> oh, I see. it says I don't have a premission to push changes into the repository, which is good thing
20130503 10:38:22< thunderstruck> Crab_, did you decide on when you will make a final choice on proposals? I have exams at this time, so it would help me to plan my time if I know how much time do I have.
20130503 10:39:06< Crab_> thunderstruck: things can change at the last moment. that's why we are not telling anything to students until the official announcement data. it would be safe to say that you still have 2-3 weeks.
20130503 10:39:58< Crab_> thunderstruck: with this year's gsoc schedule a lot of students have exams at this time. so it's expected.
20130503 10:41:35< Crab_> thunderstruck: I recommend, even if you have exams, spending a small amount of time each day (e.g. even 10-20 minutes) to make your proposal better in some small way.
20130503 10:41:58< Crab_> thunderstruck: even 'asking 1 good question per day' would help the application to become better in the end.
20130503 10:42:02< PL_kolek> Crab_, submitted. Now you only have to choose me
20130503 10:42:36< Crab_> PL_kolek: bardzo dobrze :) We'd like to see the patch finished (and maybe 1-2 more :) )
20130503 10:43:45< Crab_> PL_kolek: later (most likely over this weekend), I'll be going over all the proposals we have, commenting, providing feedback, asking for some small changes/improvements, and telling about the best way to improve the proposal.
20130503 10:43:47< PL_kolek> Crab_, WOW! 2-3 weeks, it's 2-3 patches maybe ;)
20130503 10:44:06< PL_kolek> Crab_, I can't wait for that.
20130503 10:44:39< Crab_> PL_kolek: and ping me about any patches, to make sure I don't miss any.
20130503 10:45:03< PL_kolek> Crab_, OK.
20130503 10:45:24< PL_kolek> Crab_, I wrote as one more, about those deprecated AI tags
20130503 10:46:24< nurupo> Crab_: btw, what's regrading the dropbox links at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows ?
20130503 10:46:36< PL_kolek> Crab_, And for training a simple mirror recruitment AI. Inluded a link in my questionnaire
20130503 10:46:45< Crab_> PL_kolek: ok
20130503 10:47:24< Crab_> nurupo: no news so far, I'll need to update the archives, but haven't got to it so far.
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20130503 10:50:40< thunderstruck> Crab_, thanks for the tips :) By the way, you didn't say anything about my first milestone in the proposal. But it is rather big and I don't like that. Although, I'm not sure how can I improve that.
20130503 10:50:53< thunderstruck> Crab_, and I'll have to refactor config cache it will be even bigger.
20130503 10:50:59< thunderstruck> and if*
20130503 10:52:52< Crab_> thunderstruck: the first milestone in your proposal is floating. midterm is only on 2nd August
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20130503 10:53:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: so if you mess up the first milestone, it's "so what?", you'll have time to recover.
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20130503 10:53:43< Crab_> thunderstruck: to improve it, you should use the 'May 27 - June 17 (community bonding period)' to figure out a more exact TODO list to not spend time on things that are not necessary
20130503 10:54:04< Crab_> thunderstruck: the changes themselves are not that big, it's more of 'time spent figuring out how the code works and what we need to fix'
20130503 10:56:16< Crab_> PL_kolek: so, later, I'll send comments about your proposal, via google's tracker.
20130503 10:56:42< Crab_> PL_kolek: and if you'll have any questions in the meantime, you can ask them either here, or via forum PM, or via google's tracker.
20130503 10:57:10< PL_kolek> PL_kolek, OK, I'm waiting.
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20130503 11:01:13< thunderstruck> Crab_, talking about config cache, I want to clarify why it might be necessary to improve it. Is it because I'm planning to get rid of multiplayer define, so the game would load all configs (mp and sp) for both sp and mp?
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20130503 11:02:17< Crab_> thunderstruck: (1) campaign A can define stuff that will conflict with other campaign B   (2) campaigns have difficulty levels which are implemented via defines.
20130503 11:02:49< thunderstruck> what I'm talking about? It always loads all configs..
20130503 11:03:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, to see the scenarios of the campaign, we need the game to load a particular campaign at a particular difficulty level (two defines set, a campaign define and difficulty define)
20130503 11:03:57< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'm aware of all this, except the conflicts.
20130503 11:04:08< thunderstruck> Crab_, could you give some brief insight onto that?
20130503 11:04:15< thunderstruck> into*
20130503 11:04:25< Crab_> thunderstruck: wesnoth preprocesses wml top-to-bottom.
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20130503 11:05:15< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, if we have several directories with campaigns, c1,c2,c3, then during preprocessing of c2 we'll have all the defines done by c1
20130503 11:05:17< Ren_> goodness, there's a wiki page for just about everything
20130503 11:05:43< Ren_> this is one of the most organized developer groups I've ever seen
20130503 11:05:53< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, in theory, something might be broken because of that (because authors of c1 and c2 might not cooperate or know about each other)
20130503 11:06:30< PL_kolek> Ren_, Yes, but I haven't found a way to easily navigate this wiki ;)
20130503 11:06:32< Crab_> thunderstruck: (for completeness, also, there are eras which are a separate problem)
20130503 11:07:26< thunderstruck> Crab_, so the problem is that in multiplayer, we want to see the campaigns, while in singleplayer we don't?
20130503 11:07:39< thunderstruck> s/campaigns/scenarios
20130503 11:08:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: the problem is that MP scenarios were designed to work without a campaign define or difficulty levels.
20130503 11:08:29< Ren_> now that you mention it, it does seem a little confusing to navigate
20130503 11:08:34< Crab_> thunderstruck: and SP campaigns were designed to work with campaign define and difficulty levels
20130503 11:08:57< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, if we take SP campaign and put it in MP context, it'll require a campaign define and difficulty level define to work properly
20130503 11:09:30< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, you're right, in MP we have a concept of 'stand-alone scenario'
20130503 11:09:47< PL_kolek> Ren_, if you find a way to do that, please tell :)
20130503 11:09:52< Crab_> thunderstruck: (unless you'll conspire to kill the concept, requiring all stand-alone scenarios to be a single-scenario campaigns as well )
20130503 11:10:07< Crab_> PL_kolek: google search looks like the best wiki navigation way :)
20130503 11:10:39-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: shadowm_desktop
20130503 11:10:39< Ren_> PL_kolek: this might help http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StartingPoints
20130503 11:10:48-!- Netsplit over, joins: shadowm_desktop
20130503 11:11:21< Ren_> backwards navigation looks like the problem
20130503 11:11:23< thunderstruck> Crab_, thanks. I was missing this bit. I had an idea that things works this way, but I just didn't realize how my changes would affect single mp scenarios.
20130503 11:11:49< PL_kolek> Crab_, If google comes out with Winter Holidays of Code, propose a project for two weeks to improve the wiki navigation ;)
20130503 11:12:00< Crab_> PL_kolek: :)
20130503 11:12:12< PL_kolek> Ren_, thanks, I always lose this page somewhere, bookmarked it now
20130503 11:12:14< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, one of the approaches (might not be the only possible approach) to deal with the problem is to make  all the game WML 'small' (e.g. just campaign/scenario descriptions), and load only the campaign the user needs.
20130503 11:12:21< thunderstruck> Crab_, but the same applies to mp campaigns with multiple starting points as far as I understand.
20130503 11:12:46< Crab_> thunderstruck: depends. you can just define the starting points in campaign metadata
20130503 11:13:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. then you'll be able to show the starting points descriptions without having to select the diff level and load the campaign WML.
20130503 11:13:28< Crab_> thunderstruck: or you can ask for diff. level first, then show the starting points after parsing all the scenarios.
20130503 11:13:50< Crab_> thunderstruck: or you can just load everything in NORMAL, show the starting points, then reload in selected difficulty levels (ugly, 2 reloads)
20130503 11:14:18< Crab_> thunderstruck: pushing for all the campaigns to be safe-to-use-without-campaign-define is probably not an option (too much trouble)
20130503 11:15:05< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, we'll need to do something with the cache loading to make it fast to switch between things like 'nothing extra loaded' and 'using era Z, campaign X loaded in difficulty Y'
20130503 11:15:43< Crab_> (note that eras make the entire thing slightly funnier, since they, by design, are made to interfere with the scenario/campaign WML)
20130503 11:16:26< Ren_> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Shofixti/GSoC13/Proposal
20130503 11:16:31< Ren_> 4.2, lol!
20130503 11:16:55< Crab_> Ren_: a fair assumption.
20130503 11:17:34< Crab_> Ren_: it's possible for us to accept other ideas. but, take a look at one proposal that was accepted with a custom idea - http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba - note the amount of work he did.
20130503 11:17:53< Crab_> Ren_: a custom proposal would need a lot of work and details.
20130503 11:18:04< thunderstruck> was that the only accepted custom proposal?
20130503 11:18:32< Ren_> is that stuff there for me to copy-paste or just a suggestion about how to word things in my proposal?
20130503 11:18:46< Crab_> thunderstruck: the only Wesnoth one that I know of.
20130503 11:19:37< thunderstruck> Crab_, could you direct me to a  wiki page with campaign metadata? (if there is one)
20130503 11:19:55< Crab_> thunderstruck: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignWML
20130503 11:19:59< PL_kolek> Ren_, the questionnare has to be filled, the proposal you have to state in a separate point with detailed description
20130503 11:21:13< Ren_> PL_kolek, oh ok thanks. that was a little confusing
20130503 11:21:33< Crab_> Ren_: check proposals of accepted students from last years, like http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba http://wiki.wesnoth.org/MP_Server_Ilor  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_LuaAI_Improvement_Nephro http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC2012_Nephro
20130503 11:21:44< thunderstruck> Crab_, ah, yes, but you can define only first scenario there.
20130503 11:21:47< Crab_> Ren_: but basically what PL_kolek said. plus a timeline.
20130503 11:21:51< Crab_> thunderstruck: well, that's trivial to fix :)
20130503 11:22:18< Ren_> Crab_, thanks, but I don't think I'm ready for proposing my own idea yet
20130503 11:22:22< Crab_> thunderstruck: but note that if you decide to define the starting points outside of [campaign], in scenario tags, you'll have to load the campaign before you'll get access to them
20130503 11:23:19< PL_kolek> Ren_, you don't have to propose your own, just work on one provided by wesnoth team
20130503 11:24:07< Ren_> right, I plan on working with the recruitment AI one
20130503 11:25:41< thunderstruck> Crab_, I can see that -- path to scenarios is guarded by ifdef. 
20130503 11:27:00< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes. so, to get them we need to reload the WML with the define set.
20130503 11:27:02< Trademark_> Crab_, Assuming that I'd like to start to code something for the add-on server, should I code it in local and then submitting patches ? Or maybe put a link on a open-repository ?
20130503 11:27:43< Crab_> Trademark_: since we now live in github, I guess you'll be able to fork and push changes to your fork.
20130503 11:28:03< Crab_> Trademark_: so, everyone (esp. Mordante) would be able to see the history of your changes.
20130503 11:28:15< Trademark_> Crab_, hum nice idea
20130503 11:29:30< Trademark_> Crab_, is it better to start coding the add-on server or should I fix some bugs ? However, for the latter, I'm afraid that correct bugs would be unrelated to my project.
20130503 11:30:47< Crab_> Trademark_: I'd say "start coding, you already have bugfixes/patches from 2012"
20130503 11:31:23< Crab_> Trademark_: but it's important to code in a way that would allow you to ask Mordante for useful feedback. e.g. if you go top-down, you'll be able to get feedback on design early.
20130503 11:32:08< Crab_> and if you start bottom-up, you'll deal with non-interesting details first, which is not good.
20130503 11:32:17< Crab_> so start with the most interesting part and show the code/design early.
20130503 11:33:47< Trademark_> Ok, I'll try to manage some times to implement the beginning of the front-end (and continue further analysis on the back-end).
20130503 11:33:56< Trademark_> Crab_, thanks ;-)
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20130503 12:29:47< Ren_> Trademark_, you were right, this is a lot of work
20130503 12:30:18< Ren_> Trademark, I'm still trudging along though
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20130503 14:18:12< fabi> LordBob_: ping
20130503 14:18:23< thunderstruck> Does WML currently support multiple values for one attribute?
20130503 14:18:43< fabi> thunderstruck: You can have lists.
20130503 14:19:07< thunderstruck> fabi, ah, yes. Like with the difficulties..
20130503 14:19:29< fabi> thunderstruck: Or recruit lists.
20130503 14:23:13< thunderstruck> fabi, do you think it is a bad or a good idea to require stand-alone multiplayer scenarios to be single scenario campaigns?
20130503 14:24:16< thunderstruck> fabi, it seems that Crab was not in favour of this, but it sounds like a good idea to me.
20130503 14:25:27< fabi> thunderstruck: Why does it sounds to be a good idea?
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20130503 14:25:45< fabi> thunderstruck: The disadvantages are obvious.
20130503 14:25:58< thunderstruck> fabi, more works for UMC devs?
20130503 14:26:02< thunderstruck> work*
20130503 14:26:05< LordBob_> fabi: pong
20130503 14:26:33< fabi> LordBob_: Hi, I just had a look at the more or less final editor gui.
20130503 14:27:38< fabi> thunderstruck: It renders every MP content useless. I mean you introduce incompatibility.
20130503 14:27:42< LordBob_> fabi: hi. I'm working on the 36+2 buttons as we speak
20130503 14:28:13< fabi> LordBob_: Okay, there are just 2 more items from the past.
20130503 14:29:08< thunderstruck> fabi, well, but if I was planning to use CampaignWML and ScenarioWML for multiplayer and implement an upgrader to upgrade old syntax to new one.
20130503 14:29:13< thunderstruck> fabi, it is not a problem anymore?
20130503 14:29:39< thunderstruck> fabi, or do you see other incompatibility issues?
20130503 14:29:56< LordBob_> fabi: which ones ?
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20130503 14:31:44< fabi> LordBob_: The village and unit icons.
20130503 14:31:46< LordBob_> fabi: A quick glance says it's the unit and village icons from the menu bar, but is there something else ?
20130503 14:31:52< LordBob_> ah, good
20130503 14:34:26< Soliton> thunderstruck: what does it mean to be single scenario campaigns?
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20130503 14:35:19< thunderstruck> Soliton, single scenario multiplayer campaign*. That it means that it is a campaign with only one scenario. i.e. it uses [campaign] tag.
20130503 14:35:31< thunderstruck> It means*
20130503 14:36:01< Rho> can we add elements or weapons to the game to support the defense strategy ? 
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20130503 14:37:38< Soliton> thunderstruck: so what prevents you from just treating multiplayer scenarios as campaigns with only one scenario?
20130503 14:38:09< fabi> thunderstruck: breaking WML compatibility is not that bad, but you should have a reason to do it. 
20130503 14:38:24< fabi> thunderstruck: So far, you did not explain why you want to do that and what we gain.
20130503 14:39:15< thunderstruck> fabi, I don't think I'm breaking compatibility if I plan to introduce some sort of upgrader which takes care of old syntax.
20130503 14:39:39< thunderstruck> fabi, what we gain? CampaignWML and ScenarioWML could used for both sp and mp.
20130503 14:39:52< thunderstruck> could be used*
20130503 14:40:13< Soliton> that can also be done with leaving old syntax intact.
20130503 14:40:37< thunderstruck> Soliton, that was my plan, but after I spoke with the Crab, this issue arise
20130503 14:40:52< thunderstruck> Soliton, and then he left, so I didn't have chance to talk about it
20130503 14:41:08< Soliton> which issue?
20130503 14:41:27< Soliton> having two ways to describe single scenario mp campaigns?
20130503 14:41:42< thunderstruck> <Crab_> thunderstruck: (unless you'll conspire to kill the concept, requiring all stand-alone scenarios to be a single-scenario campaigns as well )
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20130503 14:42:40< Soliton> sounds like what i just suggested.
20130503 14:42:56< fabi> thunderstruck: There is a syntax change you mention that is very useful for LoW (because it is both, single and multiplayer). I wish that if I introduce a campaign as multiplayer, maybe in the [campaign] tag, I want to use [scenario] only.
20130503 14:44:28< fabi> thunderstruck: And get rid of the #ifdef MULTIPLAYER [multiplayer] #else [scenario]
20130503 14:45:26< thunderstruck> fabi, what do you mean by 'I want to use [scenario] only'?
20130503 14:46:08< fabi> thunderstruck: Please have a look at a LoW scenario.
20130503 14:46:31< fabi> thunderstruck: You will notice the ifdef stuff I just mentioned.
20130503 14:47:59< fabi> thunderstruck: Say I have already told the engine in the [campaign] tag about LoW being a hybrid campaign. Both single and multiplayer.
20130503 14:48:34< fabi> thunderstruck: [campaign] type=hybrid|single|multi
20130503 14:48:40< thunderstruck> fabi, I'm aware at least of those basic things which makes LoW a hybrid campaign.
20130503 14:48:49< thunderstruck> fabi, I just didn't get what you were trying to say.
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20130503 14:50:29< thunderstruck> Soliton, sorry, I'm not good at multi-tasking so I find it difficult to talk with two people at once :) Briefly: the issue we discussed was related of config cache
20130503 14:50:36< Soliton> treat [multiplayer] and [scenario] the same in a mp campaign.
20130503 14:51:50< thunderstruck> Soliton, Crab said that some metadata would have to be read and if it is only stand-alone mp scenario, there is no campaign define and so on
20130503 14:52:49< thunderstruck> Soliton, so, all those mp scenarios would have to be loaded with some predefine difficulties and maybe other defines
20130503 14:52:58< thunderstruck> Soliton, and then they would have to be reloaded
20130503 14:53:21< thunderstruck> Soliton, and this is the 'issue' I was talking about.
20130503 14:54:43< Soliton> ok. that whole campaign define thing is certainly an issue. and one i have not seen properly addressed so far.
20130503 14:55:40< Soliton> for example i don't see how handling mp campaigns the same as sp campaign with reparsing all WML etc should be feasable online.
20130503 14:56:26< Soliton> there are slow systems out there... you can't just have them reparse tons of WML when they join/start a game on the server.
20130503 14:58:13< thunderstruck> Soliton, hmm.. that's true. But with my solution, if campaign defines would be introduced to all campaigns and all scenarios would be wrapped as campaigns
20130503 14:58:25< thunderstruck> Soliton, there wouldn't be tons of WML to parse
20130503 14:58:43< thunderstruck> Soliton, just campaign metadata + loaded campaign
20130503 14:59:01< thunderstruck> just campaigns metadata*
20130503 14:59:07< fabi> Currently we just parse everything guarded with MULTIPLAYER when the user enters either the server or the local game creation dialog.
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20130503 14:59:31< Soliton> note that currently *nothing* has to be reparsed/loaded on game start.
20130503 14:59:48< thunderstruck> Soliton, yes, but we want difficulties and other defines, right?
20130503 15:00:08< thunderstruck> Soliton, so, it would have to be reparsed. Or at least I can't think of any other appropriate way.
20130503 15:00:22< Soliton> we want difficulties. whether that is feasable via defines is what i'm questioning.
20130503 15:01:01< Soliton> i think this is a good opportunity to make up a better, more modular system.
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20130503 15:02:32< fabi> hmmmm
20130503 15:02:38< thunderstruck> Soliton, hmm.. as far as I know where is no other way for 'decision making' in WML other than defines
20130503 15:03:15< Soliton> i'm not a WML wizard but that's certainly not true.
20130503 15:03:43< fabi> If we stay with parsing every multiplayer related wml when entering the lobby it will very soon just take ages.
20130503 15:04:04< fabi> Alone LoW introduced much bigger loading times.
20130503 15:04:20< Soliton> fabi: it already does! see the lets-include-every-faction-out-there eras.
20130503 15:04:54< fabi> Soliton: Well, eras should be guarded by defines as well.
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20130503 15:06:33< thunderstruck> Soliton, what else there is to allow 'decision making'? Other than various [events] tags.
20130503 15:07:00< Soliton> thunderstruck: what's wrong with events?
20130503 15:07:44< Soliton> it seems to me ideally eras and campaigns get seperated so they can be combined at will without having to parse them together.
20130503 15:07:44< thunderstruck> Soliton, they are not suitable to solve mp difficulties issue, I think.
20130503 15:07:56< fabi> Soliton: Indeed.
20130503 15:08:39< fabi> Soliton: And yes, thunderstruck is right there. Adjusting difficult levels with event wml is a bit ugly.
20130503 15:08:55< fabi> Soliton: And not easy to read.
20130503 15:09:35< Soliton> then it has to be made easier, but the preprocessor is no way to go IMO.
20130503 15:10:00< Soliton> sure it'll be less powerful than defines but we don't use 90% of that power anyway.
20130503 15:10:16< fabi> Soliton: I would like to come to a solution where nearly every type of addon is guarded by #ifdef and the player can select which of his installed addons should be loaded currently.
20130503 15:11:20< Soliton> fabi: that could be a nice step, yes.
20130503 15:11:34< LordBob_> fabi: icons and buttons are done. I've posted the result in the forums
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20130503 15:12:12< fabi> LordBob_: Danke
20130503 15:12:24< Soliton> i'm not sure what exactly the problem is with actually parsing eras and campaigns seperately. you'd just have to put them in different WML containers and combine them only before starting a game.
20130503 15:12:30< LordBob_> (posting is still in progress, actually)
20130503 15:13:12< Soliton> of course sp campaigns don't have eras to begin with.
20130503 15:13:50< fabi> Soliton: Most story driven MP campaigns do not depend on them either.
20130503 15:13:53< thunderstruck> What exactly does difficulties define affects? Some macros like GOLD?
20130503 15:14:15< Soliton> thunderstruck: yes, but in theory it can be anything of course.
20130503 15:14:18< fabi> Soliton: There is absolutely no reason to load any era before starting LoW MP.
20130503 15:14:45< thunderstruck> Soliton, yes, but I am thinking what is going to break if they were to be removed.
20130503 15:15:04< Soliton> well, i'm not just thinking about campaigns. when i said campaigns i also included the usual mp scenario we have now.
20130503 15:15:28< fabi> Well, this thing is better handled with the MULTIPLAYER define.
20130503 15:15:53< fabi> And the [multiplayer] tag.
20130503 15:16:05< fabi> This stuff already runs fine, don't change it.
20130503 15:16:14< Soliton> the MULITPLAYER define puts everything in one huge WML document. not much is better handled by that.
20130503 15:16:39< Soliton> as discussed above that stuff does not run fine, it doesn't scale.
20130503 15:16:57< LordBob_> fabi: done. Note that the status icons didn't change a lot; mostly, I cleaned them up and applied the colour scheme of terrain icons, but there really isn't a lot to do with 15 pixels.
20130503 15:17:21< Soliton> thunderstruck: some clever use of grep will likely tell you. :-)
20130503 15:18:56< LordBob_> fabi: next, if you have some free time, now might be a good opportunity to teach me how to commit images
20130503 15:19:40< thunderstruck> Soliton, just to confirm, so to load all campaigns metadata + one campaign when creating/joining mp game is not feasible at all?
20130503 15:20:14< fabi> LordBob_: git add path/to/image
20130503 15:20:22< fabi> git commit
20130503 15:20:26< fabi> git push
20130503 15:20:46< fabi> If it tells you that your copy is out of date, use:
20130503 15:20:53< fabi> git pull --rebase
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20130503 15:22:26< LordBob_> fabi: should "path/to/image" be the local path on my hard drive, or the destination folder in the repo ?
20130503 15:22:39< fabi> LordBob_: Local
20130503 15:23:16< LordBob_> fabi: ok. Then, where if at all do I tell git about the destination folder ?
20130503 15:23:49< fabi> LordBob_: Well, just copy the file in the git clone.
20130503 15:23:53< Soliton> thunderstruck: might be possible, we'd have to test. maybe you can hack it together so it runs reasonably fast especially when a cache exists.
20130503 15:23:59< fabi> LordBob_: At the location where you like it.
20130503 15:25:11< thunderstruck> Soliton, the running time should be about the same as loading SP campaign (of course it depends on campaign as well)
20130503 15:25:12< Soliton> LordBob_: your git clone IS a repo.
20130503 15:25:22< LordBob_> fabi: oh. So, I first place a copy in my home repo, and / then / commit this copy. Right. 
20130503 15:25:24< thunderstruck> Soliton, because it would work the same way
20130503 15:26:03< LordBob_> is git pull --rebase the command to update my home repo ?
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20130503 15:26:09< thunderstruck> Soliton, one thing I already see how things can be speeded up, is to not load all configs when the game is started.
20130503 15:26:10< fabi> LordBob_: Yes
20130503 15:26:35< thunderstruck> Soliton, but only the chosen game's config/.
20130503 15:26:40< thunderstruck> config*
20130503 15:26:50< vultraz> LordBob_: you're on mac, right?
20130503 15:27:29< LordBob_> vultraz: I am
20130503 15:27:41< Soliton> thunderstruck: by only loading the WML below a certain sub dir?
20130503 15:27:54< thunderstruck> Soliton, yes
20130503 15:28:13< vultraz> LordBob_: and you're trying to figure out git?
20130503 15:29:59< Soliton> thunderstruck: right, that'd be my idea to go towards a more modular system, too. less reliance on preprocessor hacks more reliance on defined (directory) structure.
20130503 15:31:57< thunderstruck> Soliton, I'd guess that I soon have to change the name of my proposal :)
20130503 15:32:08< Soliton> thunderstruck: IMO it wouldn't be too hard to go from campaign_define to just loading what's in the add-on's sub dir.
20130503 15:32:26< LordBob_> vultraz: the basics, at least
20130503 15:32:29< thunderstruck> Soliton, it seems that I'm going more and more far from mp campaigns to just 'improve engine' thing.
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20130503 15:32:55< LordBob_> vultraz: because I run on 10.6.8, I can only use the terminal interface for git
20130503 15:32:59< Soliton> thunderstruck: right, but these engine improvements are mostly necessary for mp.
20130503 15:33:13< vultraz> LordBob_: you cannot use Github's app?
20130503 15:33:15< Soliton> thunderstruck: sp works as is and is "good enough".
20130503 15:33:20< vultraz> or any of the other git apps?
20130503 15:33:47< vultraz> GitBox?
20130503 15:34:08< thunderstruck> Soliton, yes, it shouldn't be hard. All configs are read during wesnoth load time, so I would be able to retrieve all the information I need to load only specific dir.
20130503 15:34:19< thunderstruck> Soliton, but let's go back to the main issue.
20130503 15:34:28< thunderstruck> Soliton, difficulties.
20130503 15:35:06< LordBob_> vultraz: I haven't tried all of them, but I know that at least GitHub for Mac is 10.7 only
20130503 15:35:14< vultraz> I see...
20130503 15:35:19< vultraz> well, try GitBox
20130503 15:35:26< thunderstruck> Soliton, so how fast reparsing should be so that some campaign could be loaded when creating/joining mp game?
20130503 15:35:44< vultraz> http://gitboxapp.com/
20130503 15:35:59< fabi> thunderstruck, Soliton: You need to read the content of [multiplayer] to gather all information needed in the game creation screen or to join a game.
20130503 15:36:33< vultraz> (not fully sure if it works on 10.6, though...)
20130503 15:36:44< Soliton> thunderstruck: an excellent question and i have no idea really.
20130503 15:36:59< mattsc> LordBob_: I am using the GitHub app  (and I'm on 10.6)
20130503 15:38:08< vultraz> LordBob_: looks like it does work on 10.6, but you need libcurl 7.0.0 or later (must be in /usr/lib) installed
20130503 15:38:13< vultraz> (GitBox)
20130503 15:38:15< Soliton> thunderstruck: that ties into the general issue though. it'd certainly be faster if you hust have to parse one sub dir.
20130503 15:38:21< vultraz> (Not GitHub's app)
20130503 15:38:47< thunderstruck> Soliton, yes, it would help, but it won't be incredibly faster, I guess.
20130503 15:38:49< LordBob_> mattsc, vultraz : I must have missed something. I will give it another try, then
20130503 15:38:53< fabi> Soliton, thunderstruck: Thus I would just handle every old [multiplayer] scenario like we do since ages: Only guarded with MULTIPLAYER, breaking no compatibility.
20130503 15:38:58< thunderstruck> Soliton, so for very big mp campaigns the issue stays the same.
20130503 15:39:32< Soliton> thunderstruck: ideally it'd be pre-parsed as a cache with the appropriate defines.
20130503 15:40:23< fabi> Iirc, only the host parses the scenarios which are sent via net to the hosts.
20130503 15:40:30< thunderstruck> Soliton, you mean pre-parse with NORMAL difficulty, but if players decide to choose other difficulty re-parse it again?
20130503 15:40:52< Soliton> thunderstruck: pre-parse with all difficulties on install or something.
20130503 15:41:21< Soliton> really not sure what would be best/most feable though.
20130503 15:41:35< Soliton> s/feable/feasable/
20130503 15:43:16< thunderstruck> fabi, but that would make an extra codepath. I personally like the idea of upgrader utility to maintain compatability.
20130503 15:43:22< Soliton> again though, a non-preprocessor way to define difficulties would be preferable.
20130503 15:43:44< thunderstruck> Soliton, any ideas on how that could be achieved?
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20130503 15:44:21< Soliton> fabi might know or zookeeper. i don't know enough about WML.
20130503 15:45:20< thunderstruck> Soliton, as for pre-parsing it might work if everyting would be guarder by campaign define.
20130503 15:45:33< thunderstruck> guarded*
20130503 15:45:45< thunderstruck> Soliton, nevermind.
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20130503 15:46:13< LordBob_> mattsc: so no, the github app (this one at least : http://mac.github.com/) doesn't work on 10.6.8
20130503 15:46:16< Soliton> i mean fabi already mentioned it's possible with events just not particularly easy, right now.
20130503 15:46:53< Soliton> so i'd try to figure out if there are ways to make it easier.
20130503 15:48:28< mattsc> LordBob_: indeed:  http://mac.github.com/help.html#faq-version
20130503 15:49:02< mattsc> LordBob_: I guess I downloaded mine before that did that
20130503 15:49:16< vultraz> LordBob_: so try GitBox 
20130503 15:49:18< LordBob_> mattsc: fortunately, the GitBox app that vultraz  recommanded does work with 10.6
20130503 15:49:54< mattsc> I should really update my OS before more important things stop working ...
20130503 15:49:59< LordBob_> I'm running it as we speak, trying to figure out how I commit updated artwork
20130503 15:51:08< thunderstruck> Soliton, https://gna.org/bugs/?11503
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20130503 15:51:38< irker430> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 6b119e4 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: battle_calcs library: fix formatting and indenting http://git.io/S6qbEQ
20130503 15:51:39< thunderstruck> Soliton, related to what we spoke about
20130503 15:52:52 * Soliton needs to pay attention to work for a bit...
20130503 15:53:14< thunderstruck> Soliton, fabi: I have to go now, I need to do some revision for my exams. But if you have any ideas (especially about difficulties issue) just leave message here. I'm reading logs.
20130503 15:53:38< thunderstruck> Soliton, fabi: and thanks a lot for all your thoughts so far :)
20130503 15:55:30< irker430> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 122d674 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: battle_calcs library: some tweaks to attack_rating() function http://git.io/t-djjw
20130503 15:58:50< LordBob_> vultraz:  once a change is committed via GitBox in my local repo, what should I do ? Use the "push" command to  send it to the online repo ?
20130503 15:59:36< vultraz> yes, or it might be named Sych, I'm not sure. I didn't geta chance to use much of it.
20130503 16:00:45< LordBob_> vultraz: any idea what the following failure means: "You can't push to git://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git Use https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git"
20130503 16:01:11< fabi> LordBob_: Your checkout is a read only one.
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20130503 16:01:29< LordBob_> Darn
20130503 16:01:34< irker430> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 7e189c1 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: battle_calcs relative_damage_map: add own and enemy damage to output http://git.io/vlQpCw
20130503 16:01:42< fabi> LordBob_: Just change it.
20130503 16:01:56< LordBob_> Yes. But how do I do that ?
20130503 16:01:56< vultraz> LordBob_: I am not really the person to ask about git stuff, seeing as I only recently learned it myself :P
20130503 16:02:22< fabi> LordBob_:   git remote set-url origin git@github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git
20130503 16:02:25< vultraz> But I think you point the remote to the https URL or something
20130503 16:02:35< vultraz> or what fabi said
20130503 16:02:38< irker430> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * 5fb4dd3 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: battle_calcs relative_damage_map: enemy leader needs to have unity weight http://git.io/kSnc6g
20130503 16:04:44< fabi> vultraz: But you know how to handle the ssh key stuff on the mac?
20130503 16:05:27< fabi> vultraz: LordBob_ might have to install a ssh client, generate a key and put it up to github.
20130503 16:05:36< vultraz> I have no idea how to handle ssh keys, period. They're a massive headache for me...
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20130503 16:06:25< vultraz> I'm just using the https url and the github app for my own addon on github, and the app generates and adds it's own ssh key, so I really don't know
20130503 16:06:34< irker430> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * e7a71a5 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: battle_calcs library: add functions best_defense_map() and get_attack_combos_subset() http://git.io/STjYoA
20130503 16:06:36< vultraz> (using Windows 7 atm)
20130503 16:07:15< vultraz> The app does add it's own key on mac, too, but seeing as you can't get the app fabi might be right
20130503 16:07:32< vultraz> Unless GitBox has an 'ssh' keygen button somwhere
20130503 16:07:42< irker430> Wesnoth: Emilien Rotival :master * 9b67386 / images/buttons/button_selectable/ (13 files): fixed the size of the buttons, which was previously 36 pixels instead of the expected 38 http://git.io/mRfpNA
20130503 16:07:44< irker430> Wesnoth: Emilien Rotival :master * 031a933 / data/ai/lua/battle_calcs.lua: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/LAH6Iw
20130503 16:07:54< LordBob_> Apparently, it has
20130503 16:08:03< LordBob_> Or it doesn't care
20130503 16:08:40< vultraz> As long as it works :P
20130503 16:09:14< fabi> LordBob_: You can avoid the merge of the branches with doing the pull --rebase first.
20130503 16:09:17< LordBob_> Does it ? The imagecommit I wanted to do, but but the bit about merging a branch comes as a surprise
20130503 16:09:47< vultraz> LordBob_: yeah, I still don't fully understand those either...
20130503 16:10:03< LordBob_> Fabi: duly noted
20130503 16:10:33< stikonas> you can actually do pull --rebase after such merge provided that you do it before pushing
20130503 16:10:41< fabi> LordBob_: nothing went wrong, the merge is just annoying.
20130503 16:12:22< fabi> LordBob_: Thus, only compiling is left on the list of to learning stuff...
20130503 16:12:43< LordBob_> let's take it one step at a time :p
20130503 16:12:46 * vultraz thinks LordBob_ is on his way to becomming a dev :P
20130503 16:13:16 * LordBob_ think the mind-blowing task of learning how to code would be required first :p
20130503 16:15:10< vultraz> heh :P
20130503 16:17:38< fabi> LordBob_: Do you want to commit the village and unit icon as well?
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20130503 16:19:39< LordBob_> Fabi: if you think they do their job, I'll give it another try with them
20130503 16:20:53< fabi> LordBob_: Okay, it seems they are at a wrong size...
20130503 16:21:32< LordBob_> fabi: I made them 15x15. Is that too small, or too large ?
20130503 16:21:54< fabi> 16x16
20130503 16:22:01< fabi> like the terrain icons
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20130503 16:25:19< LordBob_> ok, I'll fix that and commit them afterwards
20130503 16:34:57< irker430> Wesnoth: Emilien Rotival :master * 599155c / images/buttons/button_square/ (14 files): Minor updates to the artwork of square buttons http://git.io/0u02Jw
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20130503 16:40:54 * vultraz sits up at 2 AM waiting for a game to finish downloading
20130503 16:45:30< irker430> Wesnoth: Emilien Rotival :master * 843a370 / images/icons/status/ (2 files): new status icons for the upper menu bar http://git.io/FYuQ0Q
20130503 16:46:06< LordBob_> fabi: and here are the 16x16 icons
20130503 16:46:32< fabi> LordBob_: Cool, nice to see you using the git thing.
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20130503 16:48:20< LordBob_> I've gotta admit, basic commits are easier than I had anticipated. The command line interface had me a bit worried because I know so little about the OSX CL, but graphic interfaces really do help
20130503 16:48:41 * LordBob_ is thankful for Git for Dummies"
20130503 17:02:13< AI0867> crab: every add-on gets its own preprocessor instance, so they can't interfere with each other that way. (there are enough other ways though)
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20130503 18:04:02< jleldridge> noy: will my google summer of code proposal page on the wiki be added by someone to the list of submitted proposals or do I need to do that myself?
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20130503 18:04:52< noy> Ivanovic: ^
20130503 18:05:14< noy> I'm not sure... do you have access to the page?
20130503 18:05:49< jleldridge> Ah, nevermind, my project is listed under other. I think I just messed up when I set it up.
20130503 18:06:01< noy> np
20130503 18:06:04< jleldridge> I think it's something I can figure out though, sorry to bother you.
20130503 18:06:25< noy> don't worry... its a valid question
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20130503 18:14:16< jleldridge> So should most questions/discussion be done in the public chat here?
20130503 18:16:49< zookeeper> yes
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20130503 18:21:41< darius42> Yeah, I am also not sure if we should manually edit the summer of code proposal page to put our listing in the appropriate place or it is done automatically eventually
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20130503 18:33:49< jleldridge> It's done automatically based on the category tag you put at the top of your wiki page.
20130503 18:34:31< jleldridge> Just go to the "page for the idea" for whichever project you want to submit, look at its source, and copy the category tag from there.
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20130503 18:41:40< leo42> hello everybody ... so im trying to make my first mod and i want to open the map so i can get the coordinets o want to use in the micto ai... anybody have a idia how to do it ?? :p
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20130503 19:01:30< Ivanovic> jleldridge: you just have to make sure that the proposal is also submitted to google
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20130503 19:09:30< Soliton> leo42: open it in the editor?
20130503 19:09:47< Arkist> Hi! I have only 5 minutes now, so I only want to introduce myself a little bit. I've applied for one of your projects in Google Summer of Code, about AI. I've sent my proposal to google and I will put my idea on the wiki tonight
20130503 19:14:03< leo42> Soliton: yea but i cant find the editor save fiile location to put it in
20130503 19:14:36< leo42> can i use wesnoth -e "file name" to open it ?? 
20130503 19:15:16< leo42> i mean wesnoth -e path_to_man/filename
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20130503 19:15:52< Soliton> umm, where is your map file then?
20130503 19:16:33< Soliton> and questions like that are best answered by just trying.
20130503 19:17:59< leo42> yup just try'd it :)
20130503 19:18:05< leo42> it works t :)
20130503 19:18:56< leo42> i know i just got the idia and post'd it before i startet entering the file location in the terminal :P
20130503 19:19:57< Soliton> what are you doing that you need specific locations anyway?
20130503 19:22:15< leo42> i want to use the botle neck defence Ai in the siege of elensefar untill the point the player get in the city.. it seams to me it is more natural for the defendors of the city to stay in defencive formation :P
20130503 19:22:33< leo42> for realism purposes :P
20130503 19:23:20< leo42> and ones you are break in the ai will go off line and normal behevior starts :P
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20130503 19:26:46< Soliton> so you start the httt campaign. type :debug then :choose_level and pick the elensefar scenario.
20130503 19:30:23< leo42> oooo i did not now i can do that ... how abut testing is ther a command or will i have to compile every time ?? 
20130503 19:31:01< Soliton> are you modifying C++? then yes.
20130503 19:31:33< Soliton> for changes to the sceanrio a start-of-scenario save will do.
20130503 19:34:12< leo42> its just changes to scenario for now ... exelent :P im in my home town now for easter and i only have a netbook witch takes (literally) 1.5 hours to compile :P
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20130503 21:25:59< irker447> Wesnoth: mattsc :master * ae71a23 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/animals.cfg: Animals MAI test scenario: remove SLFs that always evaluate true http://git.io/SFpKPA
20130503 21:28:41< mattsc> anonymissimus: FYI, I have pushed all of the recent MAI updates to mainline and have deleted the duplicate AI code from the add-on.  Sometime soon I'll move on to making the additions to the Healer Support MAI that you suggested.
20130503 21:30:25< mattsc> Actually, any GSoC student out there who wants to get his/her feet wet with some simple Lua AI coding?  :)
20130503 21:51:30< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 3d3bbc3 / src/display.hpp: Fix the spelling in a comment. http://git.io/jfTphQ
20130503 21:51:32< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 0b22b70 / data/core/images/themes/status_box/ (9 files): New status box art from Lord Bob. http://git.io/c-6iiQ
20130503 21:51:34< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 95f0ed8 / images/buttons/button_selectable/button_selectable_74_base-normal.png: Deleted a wrong named image. http://git.io/OpO7Yw
20130503 21:51:36< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 627ca32 / images/icons/terrain/ (2 files): Artwork for cave terrain. http://git.io/YyLH3A
20130503 21:51:38< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 1a3a7b3 / images/icons/terrain/ (2 files): Icon for unwalkable terrain. http://git.io/w7aCQg
20130503 21:51:40< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * a8b7bb5 / src/editor/palette/ (5 files): Adjust the palette size for low resolutions. http://git.io/65i7vQ
20130503 21:51:42< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 1a44707 / src/editor/map/context_manager.cpp,src/editor/map/context_manager.hpp: Add support for selecting the transition mode directly. http://git.io/1sVNqQ
20130503 21:51:44< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 8ab9659 / src/variable.cpp: Avoid a null pointer access. http://git.io/iR0STg
20130503 21:51:46< irker447> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 734d30d / src/editor/action/ (6 files): Fix drawing issues with the editor tools. http://git.io/4Xv3Ug
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20130503 21:56:02< fabi> mattsc: Around?
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20130503 22:03:00< jleldridge> mattsc: I would be interested in doing that if you're still here.
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20130503 22:38:14< mattsc> fabi, jleldridge: I'm back now
20130503 22:39:00< jleldridge> welcome back! does that offer to do some LUA AI coding still stand?
20130503 22:39:05< mattsc> jleldridge: ok, geat.  Check out the description of the Healer Support MAI here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs#Healer_Support_Micro_AI_.28ai_type.3Dhealer_support.29
20130503 22:39:07< fabi> mattsc: Would you talk LordBob_ through the compile process on the mac?
20130503 22:39:34< mattsc> fabi, LordBob_: I can try ...
20130503 22:40:25< mattsc> jleldridge: yes, it is.  There are a couple things missing currently that we want to add, and one thing to fix.
20130503 22:41:11< mattsc> 1. We want to add a [filter_second] SUF that filters the "healees" (and defaults to all units if not given)
20130503 22:41:16-!- LordBob_ [~chatzilla@2a01:e34:ee82:47e0:21e:c2ff:fe01:261f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20130503 22:41:35< mattsc> 2. The should be an [avoid] SLF that works the same as the normal [avoid] aspect
20130503 22:42:19< mattsc> 3. I am pretty sure that aggression= in combination with [filter] does currently not work correctly in all cases.  That needs to be confirmed and fixed if necessary.
20130503 22:43:45< mattsc> jleldridge: that's what I am aware of at the moment, but maybe anonymissimus has other requests.
20130503 22:44:56< jleldridge> Ok, I'll do some reading up on the subject, I still have a lot to learn about the game itself.
20130503 22:46:00< mattsc> Sure, no problem.  For the most part this is adding something similar to what's there already, so it should be pretty good for a starter project.
20130503 22:46:25< jleldridge> Sounds good, thanks for the opportunity.
20130503 22:47:24< mattsc> If you have questions when I am not around, just ask them here.  Somebody else might know the answer, and I'll read the log later in any case.
20130503 22:50:02< anonymissimus> mattsc: actually, shouldn't it be possible to retrieve the setting for [avoid] and use it ?
20130503 22:50:32< anonymissimus> :inspect and debug_ai or what the thing is called show it I suppose
20130503 22:51:09< anonymissimus> both can't be used of course, but isn't there some other way
20130503 22:52:11< mattsc> anonymissimus: yes it is, and we might want to do either one or the other or both (with the one in the [micro_ai] tag overriding the side-wide one, or something)
20130503 22:52:28< anonymissimus> and if there's no other way, then making it available could be some GSoC task; I wouldn't want to have redundant [avoid] info
20130503 22:52:33< mattsc> But that's a trivial one-line change once the functionality is there
20130503 22:54:26< mattsc> anonymissimus: How about this then: we make it a positive [filter_location] (which can double as an [avoid] tag by using [not]), and have the default [avoid] tag apply also?
20130503 22:55:02< anonymissimus> sounds confusing
20130503 22:55:36< anonymissimus> well, no, I didn't have the wish or feel that such a location filter may be useful
20130503 22:55:52< anonymissimus> only that the side-wide avoid settings would be respected
20130503 22:56:28< mattsc> anonymissimus: ok, noted.  That doesn't mean that there isn't a use for a [filter_location] anyway for some other use case.
20130503 22:57:10< mattsc> But anyway, the whole thing is just a few lines of code either way anyway, so it can be added at any time.
20130503 22:57:23< mattsc> jleldridge: did that makes sense?
20130503 22:58:11< jleldridge> Not much right now
20130503 22:58:32< mattsc> jleldridge: change Point 2. up there to: use the standard [avoid] aspect to define where healers can(not) go, rather than adding a new SLF.
20130503 22:58:45< jleldridge> ok
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20130503 23:00:14< mattsc> jleldridge: one general tip for working with Lua: become familiar with the dbms() debug function from the Wesnoth Lua Pack  (coincidentally that's written by anonymissimus)
20130503 23:01:38< jleldridge> ok, I'm also reading this page, this is a where I should start right? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide_to_Modifying_AI_Behavior
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20130503 23:02:48< mattsc> It's a good start, just be aware that some of it is a bit out of date  (it still works that way, but there are sometimes slightly different/better ways to do something)
20130503 23:03:14< mattsc> So use this to get an idea how things work, then look at the MAI code itself for the practical details.
20130503 23:03:46< jleldridge> where in the repository can I find the MAI code?
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20130503 23:04:00< mattsc> data/ai/micro_ais
20130503 23:16:14< jleldridge> mattsc: I'm about to head to an exam, should I private message you once I start getting this stuff figured out, or should I just post here when I have changes to make to the code?
20130503 23:17:07< mattsc> jleldridge: either way works.  The advantage of posting here is that somebody else might be able to help even when I am not around.
20130503 23:17:14< mattsc> Good luck with your exam.
20130503 23:17:31< jleldridge> Thank you, talk to you later.
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20130503 23:18:17< leo42> hey so i have one more question before i go if i activate a micro-ai dose it over write the normal ai behavior ?? :P
20130503 23:18:46< leo42> so i can keep it for after deactivation of the micro ai 
20130503 23:18:54< mattsc> leo42: you mean if you put it in an add-on?
20130503 23:19:07< mattsc> oh, I see ...
20130503 23:19:18< mattsc> sorry, misunderstood the question at first.
20130503 23:20:01< mattsc> leo42: just so I know what I can assume, do you know how the candidate action system works?
20130503 23:21:29< leo42> i have a general understunding but i do not yet knoe how the calculation works 
20130503 23:21:39< leo42> know *
20130503 23:21:46< mattsc> In brief: the Micro AI is added to the normal AI, it doesn't overwrite the latter, it just takes higher priority (higher CA eval score)
20130503 23:22:08< leo42> okkk that works perfectly :)
20130503 23:22:12< leo42> thank you :)
20130503 23:22:12< mattsc> ... although there are a couple minor exceptions to that rule when the two would interfere with each other.
20130503 23:22:31< mattsc> But even then, when you delete the MAI, the default AI is restored.
20130503 23:22:34< leo42> oo that could be a problem :P
20130503 23:22:50< leo42> i need to run now :P mi gf is going to kill me :S
20130503 23:23:01< mattsc> :)
20130503 23:23:03< leo42> just asking so i will not forget later 
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20130503 23:23:09< mattsc> I have to go myself anyway
20130503 23:23:11< leo42> thank you :)
20130503 23:23:55< mattsc> ttyl
20130503 23:28:31< mattsc> fabi, LordBob_: I have to be off too and I likely won't be back while you folks in Europe are still up...
20130503 23:29:09 * anonymissimus feels satisfied about the popularity of his dbms function
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20130503 23:33:54 * mattsc feels lucky to have stumbled upon it more or less by accident at some point
20130503 23:34:18< fabi> mattsc: We will find a time to do it :-)
20130503 23:35:06< mattsc> fabi: yep, I'm generally around for the next couple weeks, we just need to timing to work out
20130503 23:35:42< fabi> mattsc: Cool, have a nice evening :-)
20130503 23:36:01< mattsc> and you a good night, or morning, or something ...
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20130503 23:36:49< anonymissimus> conventionally, it would be a night, but I'm absolutely unsure about when fabi sleeps :P
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--- Log closed Sat May 04 00:00:45 2013