--- Log opened Wed May 08 00:00:18 2013
--- Day changed Wed May 08 2013
20130508 00:00:18< LordBob_> fabi: indeed, the buttons are fixed
20130508 00:00:37< LordBob_> (it's nice beeing able to test new fixes so fast :) )
20130508 00:00:54< fabi> LordBob_: How long does it take to compile?
20130508 00:03:13< LordBob_> Fabi: 30 seconds to a couple of minutes, depending on wether only the data folders were updated or if there's some actual compiling to do
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20130508 00:03:44< fabi> LordBob_: Ah okay. My weak laptop needs several hours for a complete build.
20130508 00:04:41< LordBob_> Oh well, maybe the first full-build took five to ten minutes
20130508 00:05:06< fabi> That is fine, even a little faster than my Desktop.
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20130508 00:06:30< LordBob_> after that, there have only been minor updates here and there, hence fast builds. The longest part was for Mattsc to walk my clumsy self through the muddy waters of remote troubleshooting ^^;;
20130508 00:07:38< fabi> LordBob_: Compiling is more or less straight forward on linux. I heard it is hell to setup on Windows. Mac might be in the middle.
20130508 00:07:40< mattsc> LordBob_: actually, I thought it went pretty smoothly, given the remoteness factor ...
20130508 00:07:54< Soliton> H-Hour: afaik parse error means the add-on could not be parsed/processed which usually means it ran out of memory. (it runs in a VM with 2GB RAM.)
20130508 00:08:29< Soliton> H-Hour: whether that is a serious issue i can't say. you could ask elias about your specific add-on.
20130508 00:08:37< LordBob_> fabi: another thing that may, or may not, be a new feature of the editor: I see animated units. Will this be permanent? The animation cycles continuously, which is a little unnerving in the long run
20130508 00:08:46< H-Hour> thanks Soliton
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20130508 00:09:23< fabi> LordBob_: I use the same thing like the game does. Thus, the animations can be disabled in the preferences, just like in the game.
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20130508 00:11:36< fabi> LordBob_: But I must admit that user might want to have the animations in the game but not in the editor.
20130508 00:12:09< AI0867> 23:45 < fabi> LordBob_: You see that the vertical is very short on this screens. I mean the vertical room on a 1600 screen is not much more than we have with 1024x768. <-- 
20130508 00:12:10< fabi> LordBob_: Currently both settings are just synced, thus he needs to change the settings every time.
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20130508 00:12:39< LordBob_> Hmm...Disabling them's a bit strong, even in the editor. It'd be nice to have them play at random intervals, instead, similar to the 'idle' animations of many RTS
20130508 00:12:47< AI0867> "big" screens tend to be 1920x1080, though you can get bigger ones if you really want to
20130508 00:12:56< AI0867> but higher vertical resolution tends to be pricey
20130508 00:14:33< fabi> AI0867: 1080 is enough, even my 1050 work fine already with large icons.
20130508 00:15:10< LordBob_> AI0867: duly noted. Anyway we want to optimize the UI for a representative fraction of the players, not for billionaires who can afford a 8k * 6k display :p
20130508 00:15:30< AI0867> before 'HD' became a thing, 1600x1200 was widely available (though still expensive)
20130508 00:15:54< fabi> 1920x1080 is a reasonable resolution to target.
20130508 00:16:11< AI0867> if you want an oversized target: 4k
20130508 00:16:11< fabi> Maybe even my 1680x1050
20130508 00:16:20< AI0867> aka double-1080p
20130508 00:17:00< fabi> AI0867: The problem is: Our hex field and unit artwork does not scale.
20130508 00:17:30< fabi> AI0867: I do not want to be the person telling our pixel artists that we need double sized pixel art.
20130508 00:17:57< fabi> AI0867: A solution to this problem could be to steal some good scaling algos from the scummvm project.
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20130508 00:18:33< AI0867> there are some decent pixel-art scaling algorithms, but I kind of doubt we need to scale that
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20130508 00:19:59< AI0867> I doubt DPI will increase much more
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20130508 00:20:20< AI0867> smartphones currently hover around the 300 DPI line
20130508 00:20:31< AI0867> good laptops sit around 150
20130508 00:20:47< AI0867> desktop monitors are a bit lower (as are TVs)
20130508 00:21:01< LordBob_> fabi: aside from the loyalists and knalgan, which other notable factions are there that you might want to use in the palette ?
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20130508 00:21:26< AI0867> I do zoom in if I want to examine pixel art, but for simply viewing the sprites, 150 DPI works fine
20130508 00:21:38< fabi> LordBob_: Sorry, I do not get your question.
20130508 00:22:18< fabi> AI0867: Well, someone thought the units would be too tiny on some new smartphones.
20130508 00:22:30< fabi> AI0867: Already.
20130508 00:22:47< LordBob_> Fabi: I mean, what's the list of faction icons needed for the unit groups in the editor ?
20130508 00:22:51< AI0867> meh, you hold a smartphone a lot closer to your eyes than a laptop screen
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20130508 00:23:51< AI0867> 300 DPI is "can't see the pixels at 20 centimeters from my face"
20130508 00:23:52< fabi> LordBob_: We need all mainline factions from the default era. This is kind of horrible for umc makers. Another images fore each faction. 
20130508 00:24:07< AI0867> and most people can't see a sharp image much closer than that anyway
20130508 00:24:44< fabi> LordBob_: And some custom ones for current addons which can't have any images drawn or referenced yet.
20130508 00:24:51< LordBob_> Fabi: then maybe this is where we should draw the line
20130508 00:24:51< AI0867> at the more reasonable distance of 50 centimeters, you need 2.5^2 times less DPI
20130508 00:25:09< AI0867> inverse-square ftw
20130508 00:26:06< fabi> AI0867: Sorry, I can't really tell, I do not own a modern cell phone.
20130508 00:26:19< fabi> AI0867: It was a discussion on the forum iirc.
20130508 00:26:40< fabi> LordBob_: draw the line?
20130508 00:26:51< fabi> LordBob_: That means what?
20130508 00:26:58< LordBob_> fabi: developping icons for every faction ever created will take ages, is likely get little use, and some barely representative icons. So maybe we should simply revert to text for these
20130508 00:27:56< LordBob_> fabi: so, here, to draw the line means to decide a limit between what's doable and what isn't
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20130508 00:28:17< LordBob_> fabi: or at least, what's reasonable to do and what isn't
20130508 00:28:20< fabi> LordBob_: On the other hand is the creation of a faction such much image art work to be drawn that there is always some artwork as a byproduct that fits on the button.
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20130508 00:29:19< fabi> LordBob_: And if not, the situation matches the terrain group one. If you do not provide custom artwork it's just one of the general addon group button.
20130508 00:30:00< LordBob_> fabi: it works well with mainline factions, but UMC eras may include a virtually unlimited number of overlapping factions. What do we do with them ?
20130508 00:30:44< fabi> LordBob_: The default era consists of : Rebels, Knalgans, Loyalists, Undead, Drake, Northerners, 
20130508 00:31:35< fabi> LordBob_: Well, you can always find a unit in the race folder.
20130508 00:32:14< fabi> LordBob_: If the number of groups defined by all your addons makes the thing crowded there is barely anything we can do.
20130508 00:32:20< flix> Crab_, mattsc: so far my AI does quite well against Alarantalara's recruiter.        me vs alara : 43:55.     alara vs me: 36:62
20130508 00:32:30< LordBob_> fabi: so, in addition to races, we produce icons for factions of the default era, and anything else gets to chose between a set of generic icons. Dos this work ?
20130508 00:32:49< LordBob_> *Does
20130508 00:33:06< fabi> LordBob_: Yes, or the designer just ships with an icon.
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20130508 00:36:05< mattsc> flix: nice
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20130508 04:03:58< leo42> hey so im done with a litle senario mod and the testing and i am wondering what is the protocol for uploding work ? 
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20130508 04:18:33< mattsc> leo42: to have it looked at by a mentor?
20130508 04:18:42< mattsc> GSoC mentor, I mean
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20130508 04:20:26< mattsc> leo42: also, is this meant to be added into Wesnoth mainline?
20130508 04:22:36< leo42> yes i would find some feedback from a mentor :p yes it is meant to go to the mainline relise but im sure il need to edit some more as i learn more abut the wesnoth code :P
20130508 04:24:10< mattsc> leo42: ok -- submit it either as a patch on the patch website, or as a pull request on github then
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20130508 04:24:32< mattsc> I can assign it to Crab_ after you do that.
20130508 04:24:39< leo42> if it makes the senario more realistic but in turn makes it a tad more easy is it ok ?  
20130508 04:25:10< mattsc> for a test case yes.  For mainline it might have to be rebalanced.
20130508 04:25:35< mattsc> That can be decided later, don't worry about that for now.
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20130508 04:27:01< leo42> ok that is logical ...
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20130508 04:44:46< leo42> okk done :) if send it to gna :) 
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20130508 04:46:18< leo42> are ther any known bugs with event trigers when using too many hex coordinates in [filter]?? 
20130508 04:48:03< mattsc> leo42: not that I am aware of.
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20130508 04:49:36< mattsc> leo42: I'll assign to Crab_ for the time being.  A couple quick comments though:
20130508 04:49:46< mattsc> patches should be submitted as diffs: see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/PatchSubmissionGuidelines
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20130508 04:50:20< mattsc> Also, you are using a mix of tavs and spaces in your WML.  Indenting in WML should always be done as series of 4 spaces.
20130508 04:50:37< mattsc> s/tavs/tabs
20130508 04:54:12< leo42> ok did not know...what dose diffs stand for ?  :s
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20130508 04:57:44< mattsc> it's a difference file that you create with a CL tool call 'diff'
20130508 04:58:14< mattsc> No worries, btw, it's all part of the learning process.  :)
20130508 04:58:21-!- Gambit is now known as BatmanGambit
20130508 04:58:23< mattsc> I have to be off now though ...
20130508 04:58:50< leo42> okkk im fixing up the tabs and i will re upload before i turn in.. :P
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20130508 05:05:36-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (still to be fixed) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 178 bugs, 332 feature requests, 29 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130508 09:09:28< timotei_> mordante: Ah, didn't say I want to use that. I just asked out of curiosity :)
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20130508 14:06:18< Crab_> PL_kolek: great, just create a new version of the patch, and let me look at it.
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20130508 14:08:45< Crab_> flix: great. if you have time, it'll be great to add a way to 'weight' combat metrics by 'important' map terrain, and see if that would help.
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20130508 14:40:23< flix> Crab_: Yes that would even improve it.
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20130508 14:43:55< flix> Crab_: Is there a reason why this average_resistance_against() will calculate the average damage over all possible attacks and not only the damage of the worst attack? Because the enemy would always choose the worst attack, so it would be a better metric then the average. (You know what i'm talking about? :) )
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20130508 14:50:34< Crab_> flix: the function is bad. still, note that sometimes 4 attacks with damage 1 is better than 2 attacks with damage 10 (if the target has 1 hp left). So, taking 'just the best attack' is not the most correct way of doing thtis.
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20130508 14:51:53< Crab_> flix: also note that sometimes traits/time of day have a very big effect on unit matchup. e.g having 30 or 31 hp can differ if you're facing 2x15 attacks.
20130508 14:53:46< flix> Crab_: Ah, I see! You would consider this function bad? My Game Theory AI makes heavy use of it :) . So I should think about how to improve it? (taking into account what you just said)
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20130508 15:10:45< Crab_> flix: well, it's "good enough", but it's certainly not the best one.
20130508 15:11:18< Crab_> flix: so, I'd expect you see improvement if you test 'your recruitment vs 'your recruitment with better combat rating function'
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20130508 15:17:22< flix> Crab_: yes, I will improve it. But not now, I will write it into my proposal. Also I like first to implement this *find important hexes*-Algorithm, because like you said one could make use of it in average_resistance_against(). I'm just about to run some final tests, then I will write in my proposal the test-results and a explanation. Meanwhile I'm convinced that to use Game Theory in recruitment is a good thing ;)
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20130508 15:26:28< Crab_> flix: great. I hope you had some fun testing it out ;)
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20130508 15:27:41< flix> Crab_: definitely! I think I'm stop playing wesnoth with gui! This testing tool is more fun :)
20130508 15:27:55< Crab_> :)
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20130508 15:29:39< flix> Crab_: btw: will you publish the amount of gsoc-slots you got?
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20130508 15:35:42< irker557> Wesnoth: ayne :master * 0d2eeee / src/gamestatus.cpp: Adding default starting gold to team creation http://git.io/KHg8bg
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20130508 15:50:59< fabi> wesbot: seen mordante?
20130508 15:50:59< wesbot> fabi: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 18h 7m ago.  18h 6m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20130508 15:51:09< fabi> Crab_: hi
20130508 15:51:40< Crab_> fabi: hello
20130508 15:52:10< Crab_> flix: as I understand, google is free to change the amount of slots we get, even at the last moment. therefore, we should not tell the number of slots we got.
20130508 15:53:55< Crab_> flix: also, I might find out that we have less good proposals than we have slots, and take less students than originally intended. In this case, it will not be a good thing to tell the number of slots we asked for, as well.
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20130508 16:01:54< Crab_> flix: however, as a reasonable guess, it looks like that at the moment we have two mentors, mordante and me, and usually a mentor takes 1 student (I took 2 students last year). This puts the number of students that we can take at 2-4, and for small projects google usually gives what we ask for.
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20130508 16:03:26< flix> Crab_: okay, fair enough!
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20130508 16:13:07< mattsc> If I merge a github pull request, will the commit show up as from me, or from the person who made the pull request?
20130508 16:14:03< mattsc> "Added myself to about.cfg" as commit message doesn't make sense if it shows up as being from me, but is perfectly good in the other case
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20130508 16:15:15< Soliton> the commit is as you see it in the pull request.
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20130508 16:16:31< Soliton> additionally there'll be a merge commit from you.
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20130508 16:18:15< mattsc> Soliton: ok, thanks.  Also, do you know whether it is possible to merge two of the commits inside the pull request into a single one?
20130508 16:19:10< Soliton> not by you but history can be rewritten at will, sure.
20130508 16:19:26< Soliton> what the best approach to that is i'm not sure yet.
20130508 16:20:55< mattsc> I see.  Well, it's not a big deal in this case, but how should we deal with the following situation:
20130508 16:20:55< Soliton> pull requests are not "that much" public history yet so it's not so bad to rewrite them. it does make things a bit more confusing to review though.
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20130508 16:22:08< mattsc> Let's assume somebody makes a pull request on a complex topic and there's a lot of fine tuning involved to get it right.  So now the pull request is "littered" with lots of little commits before we end up at the final code.
20130508 16:22:28< mattsc> We don't want to commit all of those, but just the final result.  How should that be done?
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20130508 16:24:20< Soliton> yeah, i think it should be done with incremental commits for easy review until we want to actually merge it. before merging i certainly wouldn't mind making the commits more readable.
20130508 16:24:50< Soliton> i.e. squashing/rewriting and force pushing.
20130508 16:25:40< Soliton> that's how i see it so far anyway.
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20130508 16:26:57< mattsc> And how is the squashing/reqriting done?  Sorry for the silly questions, I'm new to this...  (On my own github projects I've simply given people commit access and avoided that step.)
20130508 16:27:39< mattsc> Is that something you do inside the pull request, or spearately?
20130508 16:28:36< Soliton> that's something the one doing the pull request has to do.
20130508 16:29:18< Soliton> i usually start with something like: git rebase -i HEAD~10
20130508 16:30:18< nphro> Crab_, hi. Are you going to be here this evening for a little chat?
20130508 16:30:20< Soliton> there you can easily squash commits, reword commit messages etc.
20130508 16:30:46< Crab_> nphro: leaving in ~2h today, probably won't be online this evening.
20130508 16:31:26< Crab_> nphro: I'm mostly online during the day nowadays. let me know if it's hard for you to make it, we'll be able to arrange a good time.
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20130508 16:32:13< mattsc> Soliton: thanks much!  I'll leave a message to that effect with the pull request.
20130508 16:32:33< nphro> Crab_, I'm all free now, exams over. I will hit you up tomorrow then, if you are here.
20130508 16:35:23< Crab_> nphro: no, tomorrow I'll be here only for a short time (state holiday). Friday is probably the best time - I will be in the afternoon (at least 13:00 UTC - 16:00 UTC), probably also in the morning.
20130508 16:35:54< Crab_> nphro: you're also welcome to mail me today with any questions (or ask now), I'll be able to answer those quicklier.
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20130508 16:37:28< nphro> Crab_, I basically wanted to discuss my idea, but thought it might be better if I lay it down on a page first, so you can read it and then discuss. I can try laying it out here if it's appropriate
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20130508 16:37:59< Crab_> nphro: for a larger block of text, wiki page or google's tracker is probably the best place.
20130508 16:38:25< nphro> Crab_, yes, I know, that's why I was aiming for tomorrow :)
20130508 16:38:49< nphro> But, alright, I guess Friday isn't a bad option
20130508 16:40:23< Crab_> nphro: ok
20130508 16:42:10< bumbadadabum> fabi: I found a bug in the editor that makes it crash
20130508 16:42:26< fabi> bumbadadabum: Nice
20130508 16:42:32< fabi> bumbadadabum: How to reproduce it?
20130508 16:42:52< bumbadadabum> sorry, gotta brb really quick
20130508 16:43:20< mattsc> Crab_: Do you get emails when I assign patches to you?  Or should I bug you every time I do so?
20130508 16:43:48< Crab_> mattsc: I get emails
20130508 16:44:24< Crab_> mattsc: but atm I'm only looking at the code (especially in GSOC context), not committing those.
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20130508 16:45:31< bumbadadabum> fabi: Whenever I fill a map with desert, it crashes after a few seconds
20130508 16:46:25< fabi> bumbadadabum: But that does not happen on an empty map. There must be some units around, right?
20130508 16:46:26< bumbadadabum> (while in the desert terrain group)
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20130508 16:46:38< bumbadadabum> fabi: It does happen on an empty map
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20130508 16:47:34< mattsc> Crab_: okay.  Just let me know if you want me to do anything about any of them.  I am set up for committing, so can push them through if you approve of them.
20130508 16:47:46< Crab_> mattsc: good to know, thanks
20130508 16:47:58< fabi> bumbadadabum: Okay, please describe me exactly how to reproduce it? By the way, does the version you use feature tooltips over units?
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20130508 16:48:53< bumbadadabum> fabi: it's the version mattsc give me
20130508 16:48:57< bumbadadabum> *gave
20130508 16:49:04< bumbadadabum> don't know exactly which revision
20130508 16:49:33< fabi> I guess this one is horribly outdated compared to current master.
20130508 16:49:39< bumbadadabum> fabi: It has something to do with the teerrain groups
20130508 16:49:43< bumbadadabum> *terrain
20130508 16:50:05< fabi> Yeah, this one is fixed already.
20130508 16:50:12< bumbadadabum> oh ok
20130508 16:50:17< bumbadadabum> sorry to have wasted your time then
20130508 16:50:54< fabi> bumbadadabum: No problem, please report more bugs you can verify with a later version from mattsc.
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20130508 17:05:36-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (still to be fixed) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | Will move the repo to github, please read the dev-ml! | 177 bugs, 332 feature requests, 29 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130508 17:24:19< mattsc> bumbadadabum: current binary: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bqhbxl9jeuktyeq/Wesnoth?v=1rc-c
20130508 17:24:28< bumbadadabum> mattsc: Awesome!
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20130508 17:40:12< Ren_> hey Crab_, you can drop me from GSoC
20130508 17:40:24< Ren_> I don't feel ready for it yet
20130508 17:40:33< Crab_> Ren_: hello
20130508 17:41:07< Ren_> I looked at the code for about 12 hours
20130508 17:41:14< Ren_> couldn't figure out where to start
20130508 17:42:01< Crab_> Ren_:  it happens, the code is pretty big. Let me know if I can help you with something else (you're always welcome to contribute to wesnoth or to learn more coding things using it)
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20130508 17:42:48< Ren_> yes, I still want to learn some things if you're willing to help
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20130508 17:43:41< Crab_> Ren_: yes, I'll be willing to help.
20130508 17:44:53< flix> Ren_: With what editor you explored the code? 
20130508 17:45:06< Ren_> visual studio 2010
20130508 17:45:53< Crab_> Ren_: were you able to compile wesnoth?
20130508 17:45:58< Ren_> Crab_, great! I have a lot to learn this summer and I tend to do a lot better without any pressure
20130508 17:46:48< flix> Ren_: Okay. I ask because I've would have been screwed if I didn't had eclipses discover functionalities (like Type Hierarchy and stuff). But I guess Visual Studio have similar tools there...
20130508 17:46:52< Ren_> Crab_, I didn't try yet, I think I'm missing some libraries
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20130508 17:47:37< Crab_> Ren_: that's probably the first thing that should be done. once you're able to compile the code, it'll be possible to pick some spots where you can do your changes and see their impact in game once you recompile.
20130508 17:47:50< Ren_> I looked at this page http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnWindows
20130508 17:48:19< Ren_> and it looks straightforward, I just wanted to try tracing my own way through it first
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20130508 17:49:54< Crab_> Ren_:  ok. Ask here  if you'll run into problems, someone would be able to help (eventually, IRC can be slow sometimes :) ). You can also contact me via mail to terraninfo@terraninfo.net or via forum PM.
20130508 17:50:34< Ren_> Crab_: ok, thanks
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20130508 18:18:00< Zazweda> Hey nphro, could you explain a little to me how external CAs work for now ?
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20130508 18:33:44< Crab_> Zazweda: I can try to explain how they are supposed to work, if you want.
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20130508 18:35:53< Zazweda> Crab_: sure !
20130508 18:36:29< Crab_> Zazweda: first note, docs are at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI_New_Syntax  , implementation is at src/ai/composite/engine_lua.cpp
20130508 18:36:53< Zazweda> ok
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20130508 18:37:40< Crab_> Zazweda: AI main loop is a candidate action evaluation loop. it's possible to add new candidate actions to this loop using either on-the-fly via [modify_ai] or by specifying them in the side configuration from the start.
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20130508 18:38:39< PL_kolek> Crab_, I submitted the patch I wrote about yesterday.
20130508 18:38:40< Crab_> Zazweda: candidate actions can be written in lua. for ease-of-use, lua code should be put into external files, outside of WML config (that way, you can test/edit them directly)
20130508 18:39:15< Zazweda> ok
20130508 18:39:15< Crab_> PL_kolek: great. can you paste a link here?
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20130508 18:40:01< Crab_> Zazweda: you can view example of such file and example of candidate action definition at that wiki page I mentioned,  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI_New_Syntax
20130508 18:41:03< Zazweda> looks like the MAI
20130508 18:41:32< Crab_> Zazweda: to make it work, C++ code needs to parse the [candidate_action] block, load lua code from files, and create the c++ objects referencing the lua code
20130508 18:41:34< Zazweda> exept for the import part
20130508 18:42:13< Crab_> Zazweda: almost the same as MAI. the difference is in that the user specifies 'less' data in the candidate action definition - just the file location.
20130508 18:42:23< Zazweda> k
20130508 18:42:41< PL_kolek> Crab_, https://gna.org/patch/?3846 here, attachment to my comment. I thought you get information everytime I add something new there?
20130508 18:42:42< Crab_> Zazweda: and it automatically generates the code that would make lua read the file (at execution time, possibly with some caching), and run functions from it.
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20130508 18:43:41< Crab_> PL_kolek: not in this case, for some reason. that's why I've asked.
20130508 18:44:29< Zazweda> ok, and the current implementation is so that we can't have multiple one ?
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20130508 18:46:35< Crab_> PL_kolek: I'll need to take a closer look at the patch, I don't like the const_cast part. maybe the place to do the change should be slightly different...
20130508 18:47:47< Crab_> PL_kolek: also, it's a good idea to be consistent about style, in particular about the use of spaces and {} - an example style would be "always use spaces between =, ==, {, etc; always use {} for blocks like 'if', 'for', ..."
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20130508 18:48:17< thunderstruck> Crab_: Hello. I was reading your feedback on my proposal again and I got a bit confused. So, do you agree with the idea to load game config for mp when the game is selected? Or do you think that all configs should be loaded before going to mp, as they are now?
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20130508 18:50:02< Crab_> Zazweda: please ask mattsc about things that don't work as necessary, as he knows that part better.
20130508 18:50:49< Crab_> thunderstruck: you'll need to load the scenario/campaign list (but you should not load thing hidden by campaign defines)
20130508 18:51:11< Zazweda> Crab_: sure, thanks for the explanations
20130508 18:51:35< Crab_> thunderstruck: but, when new game is created, you'll need to reload "everything plus the particular scenario/campaign selected" if it has the difficulty/campaign defines.
20130508 18:51:41< thunderstruck> Crab_, yes, of course. I meant the actual game loading when everything needed for the game is loaded.
20130508 18:52:12< Crab_> thunderstruck: you'll need to load everything even before.. e.g. to display the list of sides, you need to load the campaign-define-protected scenario config in correct difficulty
20130508 18:52:31< Crab_> thunderstruck: and that list is displayed when you create/join a game.
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20130508 18:52:45< Crab_> thunderstruck: also we might want to set some campaign option from the 'create game' screen.
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20130508 18:53:45< thunderstruck> Crab_, ugh.. I mean between mp lobby and mp create.
20130508 18:53:49< thunderstruck> I meant*
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20130508 18:54:16< mattsc> Zazweda, Crab_ : you can have several of them, that's not a problem.  There are a couple small features missing that are needed to make the extCAs usable for more complex AIs.
20130508 18:55:23< mattsc> 1. There needs to be a persistent variable that is available across the CAs.  That variable is in the code already and Nephro says that it used to work, so likely this part is just fixing a bug somewhere in the code.
20130508 18:55:53< mattsc> 2. It needs to be possible to pass parameters to the eval and exec functions somehow.
20130508 18:56:45< mattsc> That's all - after that I'll try to convert the MAIs to using extCAs and then we'll see what other bugs/features we find.  :)
20130508 18:57:27< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. So what about mp create screen? If everything's protected by campaign define, maps and some settings won't be accessible.
20130508 18:57:47< mattsc> Zazweda: the thing about it not being possible to have several on one AI side was for the MAIs (of different type, at least).  And that's exactly the reason why I want to switch them to extCAs.
20130508 18:57:59< thunderstruck> Crab_, would it be sensible to part of that to mp connect?
20130508 18:58:00< Crab_> thunderstruck: then the things that we need should be available from the meta info (e.g. [campaign] tag)
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20130508 18:58:20< thunderstruck> to move part of that*
20130508 18:58:52< Crab_> mattsc: so, you just want to change the code from MAI to exCAs and there are no bugs in extCAs implementation that you know of, at the moment?
20130508 18:59:10< Crab_> mattsc: or there are some issues which prevent the change?
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20130508 18:59:31< mattsc> Crab_: correct - no bugs that I have found so far, just a couple missing features.
20130508 18:59:46< mattsc> Crab_: but because of those missing features, I have not done a lot of testing yet
20130508 19:00:14< Crab_> mattsc: what features are missing?
20130508 19:00:33< mattsc> The ones I list up there ^ , points 1. and 2.
20130508 19:01:06< mattsc> I guess 1. could be considered a bug, as Nephro said it should work
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20130508 19:02:14< Crab_> mattsc: ok, thanks.
20130508 19:03:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, I don't think it is a good decision to put everything we need inside [campaign] tag.
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20130508 19:03:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: why? and what do you want to do instead?
20130508 19:03:58< thunderstruck> Crab_, the file would get a bit messy, especially if there are multiple entry scenarios.
20130508 19:04:03< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'm not sure, yet.
20130508 19:04:21< Crab_> thunderstruck: WML is hierarchical, so it's possible to organize things.
20130508 19:04:45< Crab_> thunderstruck: e.g. [campaign] can include the {entry_points} directory of the campaign, where each file has a single entry point.
20130508 19:05:03< Crab_> thunderstruck: preprocessor gives some freedom on where the files are
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20130508 19:06:30< thunderstruck> Crab_, that's better, but still there would be duplications between {entry_points} directory and actuals scenarios.
20130508 19:06:38< thunderstruck> actual*
20130508 19:07:58< Crab_> thunderstruck: what kind of duplication?
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20130508 19:08:33< thunderstruck> Crab_, for every entry_points you would need scenario id, map data, scenario description and so on.
20130508 19:08:38< Crab_> thunderstruck: ( just to make sure, I believe you're right here, so I'm not arguing at all, but I'm just asking leading questions )
20130508 19:08:41< thunderstruck> Crab_, and every scenario already has that.
20130508 19:08:59< thunderstruck> Crab_, so the UMC devs would end up writing the same thing in two places.
20130508 19:09:29< Crab_> thunderstruck: why do we need map data?
20130508 19:10:03< thunderstruck> Crab_, mp create screen displays small map of top left corner.
20130508 19:10:15< thunderstruck> on top*
20130508 19:10:31< Crab_> thunderstruck: that's useful for MP scenario, but less useful for a campaign, which might want to hide the map or display some kind of logo.
20130508 19:11:29< thunderstruck> Crab_, well, the map data isn't the problem. It is just one aspect of it. We would still need a bunch of attributes for settings e.g. number of turns.
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20130508 19:11:58< thunderstruck> Crab_, ahh..
20130508 19:11:58< Crab_> thunderstruck: and those can depend on difficulty level, right?
20130508 19:12:22< thunderstruck> Crab_, I'm not 100% sure about this.
20130508 19:12:33< thunderstruck> Crab_, but I think, yes.
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20130508 19:13:32< Crab_> fabi_, thunderstruck: what do you think, then, about 'show a list of MP campaigns for a user, when he selects it, ask for the difficulty level'. then load the data and show the list of entry points in a custom dialog?
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20130508 19:14:07< Crab_> fabi_, thunderstruck: or you'd prefer a solution where we have all the entry points immediately available in the list of scenarios, even before selecting MP campaign/difficulty?
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20130508 19:15:56< fabi_> Crab_, thunderstruck: The dialog could be a complete different one, maybe more in the style of the SP campaign selection dialog.
20130508 19:16:35< fabi_> Crab_, thunderstruck: With description and campaign image.
20130508 19:16:59< thunderstruck> Crab_, fabi_: so most of the options for campaign in mp create should be hidden then?
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20130508 19:17:15< Crab_> fabi_: like a serie of two dialogs? first dialog to select a MP campaign from the list, with description and campaign image, then a way to select difficulty, then a technical pause to load data for this campaign, then a selection of the starting point and all other details?
20130508 19:17:31< fabi_> yes
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20130508 19:18:27< Crab_> fabi_: thanks
20130508 19:19:07< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, yes, it looks like that the options won't be available in mp create. instead, there'll be some way to enter a 'select MP campaign' dialog, then as ^
20130508 19:19:13< fabi_> Crab_, thunderstruck: This dialog could be a direct child of the multiplayer title screen button.
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20130508 19:19:27< bumbadadabum> Shouldn't the Elvish Archer's idle anim be disabled for the female?
20130508 19:19:45< Crab_> thunderstruck: for now, you can just add all campaigns to mp create screen, and disable all the options apart from the difficulty level selection.
20130508 19:19:48< Ren_> hahaha, derp. I'm compiling but realized I might not be looking at the right wesnoth source
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20130508 19:20:20< Crab_> Ren_: happens. the branch to use is 'trunk', it's where latest development happens.
20130508 19:20:47< Crab_> thunderstruck: then, after user selects this campaign and a difficulty (but not starting point yet), you'll have all the info to load the list of scenarios
20130508 19:20:49< Ren_> thanks
20130508 19:20:56< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok. So stand-alone mp scenarios would be loaded as always, but mp campaigns would be wrapped by campaign define and loaded on mp create?
20130508 19:21:59< Crab_> thunderstruck: more-or-less. in the end, they might be loaded via a separate set of dialogs (as fabi_ suggested, ' This dialog could be a direct child of the multiplayer title screen button.' )
20130508 19:22:01< thunderstruck> Crab_, well, a bit before mp create.
20130508 19:22:23< Crab_> thunderstruck: and it looks like it solves the duplication problem.
20130508 19:22:37< thunderstruck> Crab_, yes, it does.
20130508 19:22:42< Crab_> great
20130508 19:23:12< thunderstruck> Crab_, I guess that means that I should not touch stand-alone mp scearios?
20130508 19:23:44< Crab_> thunderstruck: for now, no. later, we should encourage some of them to become MP campaigns, to save load time.
20130508 19:23:58< Crab_> thunderstruck: but for now, it's not important at all.
20130508 19:24:08< thunderstruck> Crab_, that's true.
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20130508 19:24:32< thunderstruck> Crab_, by the way, about the first task you gave me yesterday (expose SP campaigns to MP).
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20130508 19:25:03< thunderstruck> Crab_, did you mean that they should be loaded after or still before the lobby?
20130508 19:26:27< Crab_> thunderstruck: load the campaigns immediately without the campaign defines to get a list of them, when current MP data load happens.
20130508 19:26:57< Crab_> thunderstruck: then, you'll be able to show a list of them next to scenarios, when creating new game (e.g. it can be local game, skipping the lobby at all;)
20130508 19:27:18< thunderstruck> Crab_, ok, but in that case I won't be able to play them.
20130508 19:27:39< Crab_> thunderstruck: yes. but then you'll be able to do a hacky reload of the data when a user selects one of those to play. (get a difficulty level from the user before that)
20130508 19:28:24< thunderstruck> Crab_, ah, ok. I already exposed SP campaigns to the MP list and I was wondering what was the point of all this.
20130508 19:28:57< thunderstruck> Crab_, fabi_: thanks for the thoughts on this project.
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20130508 19:29:14< Crab_> thunderstruck: so, do a reload (can be done as a hack). you might also need to mess with binary paths (but some campaigns will just work even without this)
20130508 19:29:28< thunderstruck> Crab_, I should get back to you soon (I hope) with updated proposal :)
20130508 19:29:42< Crab_> thunderstruck: great, thanks.
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20130508 19:53:32< flix> When I activate "Skip AI moves" in Preferences I see ... well ... traces of the units when they move (the picture of a unit won't vanish until the turn is over). Is this a bug?
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20130508 19:57:55< flix> ... so when a unit moves 3 hexes, I see 4 copies of the units picture until the turn is over
20130508 19:57:57< fabi_> flix: I can't reproduce it.
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20130508 20:02:40< flix> fabi_: Okay, this seems only to happen if I start a game via commandline-parameter --multiplayer. When I start a MP game in the GUI everything seems normal
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20130508 20:03:34< fabi_> flix: Yeah, the setup code is a mess.
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20130508 20:04:18< fabi_> flix: But this side effect is a very strange one.
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20130508 20:29:37< mordante> servus
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20130508 20:33:12< mordante> timotei, no problem, just wanted to let you know I tested with it
20130508 20:33:38< mordante> timotei, and I still intend to work on it further once I have more time
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20130508 20:33:44< irker708> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * c51d28a / src/editor/action/mouse/mouse_action.hpp: Fixed the spelling in a comment. http://git.io/EBWmeA
20130508 20:33:44< irker708> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * fd20400 / src/editor/action/mouse/mouse_action_unit.cpp: Fix a little indentation issue. http://git.io/qGXvzg
20130508 20:33:44< irker708> Wesnoth: fendrin :master * 4f3823e / src/editor/palette/editor_palettes.cpp: Fix the delay in the mouseoverlay update. http://git.io/1Ha6Qw
20130508 20:33:52< fabi_> hi mordante
20130508 20:33:56< fabi_> mordante: A question:
20130508 20:33:58< mordante> hi fabi_ 
20130508 20:34:52< fabi_> mordante: I need a bunch of dialogs which are very similar to each other. Only a title, a question and a text field + okay/cancel. 
20130508 20:35:26< fabi_> mordante: I know gui1 can give it to me just with a single command, is there something similar in gui2 already? I do not want to have a class and a config file for each each one.
20130508 20:36:08< mordante> fabi_, I assume you don't want it from WML
20130508 20:36:37< fabi_> No, I call the dialog from c++.
20130508 20:39:21< fabi_> mordante: The "Rename Unit" dialog is pretty much what I need, just with customizable title and question.
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20130508 20:42:11< mordante> fabi_, no there isn't one yet
20130508 20:42:47< fabi_> mordante: Okay, I will just copy the "rename unit" one and make it a little more generic, is that all right?
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20130508 20:44:26< mordante> fabi_, not sure, let me see whether that's the best base
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20130508 20:49:18< mordante> fabi_, I think it would better to move/rename 'rename unit' and make it generic
20130508 20:49:39< mordante> fabi_, once the generic version is there, having rename unit makes no sense
20130508 20:49:48< fabi_> Indeed.
20130508 21:09:30< fabi_> mordante: tedit_text_field?
20130508 21:12:00< mordante> I think the field is a bit overkill, so tedit_text
20130508 21:14:11< fabi_> okay
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20130508 21:24:38< mordante> I'm off bye
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20130508 21:32:28< Zazweda> mattsc: Hey, I will start working on the ExtCAs tomorrow, will you be there at 7-8 GMT ?
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20130508 21:32:55< mattsc> GMT being UT?
20130508 21:33:30< mattsc> Greenwich Mean Time?
20130508 21:34:31< mattsc> Zazweda: if so, then no.  That midnight for me and my current real-life situation requires an "early schedule".
20130508 21:35:43< Zazweda> I mean
20130508 21:35:45< Zazweda> 7-8 pm
20130508 21:35:47< Zazweda> ^^"
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20130508 21:35:52< mattsc> Oh ...
20130508 21:35:52< Zazweda> sry
20130508 21:37:19< mattsc> I'm not sure.  I have a lot going on tomorrow and will be in and out unpredictably.  Just drop me a note if you have questions.  I'll check the log and reply when I can.
20130508 21:37:54< mattsc> Also, for questions about the code, I might not be the right person.  Crab_ and nephro are the better contacts for that.
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20130508 21:40:48< jleldridge> mattsc: Could I ask you a question about implementing the avoid aspect in the healer support engine?
20130508 21:41:17< mattsc> jleldridge: absolutely
20130508 21:42:46< jleldridge> thanks :) , so I'm assuming that the filter will be added to the wesnoth.find_reach(h) function on line 148 of mai_healer_support_engine.lua
20130508 21:43:37< jleldridge> Would I be able to add it the same way filter_second was added to wesnoth.get_units?
20130508 21:44:55< jleldridge> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/data/ai/micro_ais/ais/mai_healer_support_engine.lua#L148 here's a link to save you time pulling it up
20130508 21:45:11< mattsc> jleldridge: too late, I just got there  :)
20130508 21:45:31< jleldridge> haha, sorry, I'm using two computers and didn't have the site pulled up on this one
20130508 21:45:41< mattsc> jleldridge: Yes, that is the area where you want to apply the filter, but find_reach does not take a filter, afaik
20130508 21:46:09< mattsc> no, it does not: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Pathfinder#wesnoth.find_reach
20130508 21:46:44< jleldridge> so then the filter will have to be added to the loop?
20130508 21:47:11< mattsc> yes
20130508 21:48:09< mattsc> The way how I would do that is by reading the avoided area into a location set (similar to what is done for enemy_attack_map), and then it's just an added condition like this:
20130508 21:48:31< mattsc> ... and (not avoid_map:get(x, y)) ...
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20130508 21:53:41< jleldridge> So can I just get the avoid aspect with cfg.avoid? or is it stored somewhere else?
20130508 21:54:42< mattsc> No, cfg only contains what you put into it in micro_ais_wml_tags.lua
20130508 21:55:45< mattsc> Here's what you want (at the very end of that section): http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAI#Aspects
20130508 21:57:11< mattsc> jleldridge: did I tell you about WLP's dbms debug function or was that somebody else?  (anonymissimus is going to be happy again)
20130508 21:57:57< jleldridge> you told me about it, I'm not entirely sure how to get started using it though, I've just been using the test AI scenario
20130508 21:58:05< jleldridge> is it documented somewhere?
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20130508 21:59:08< mattsc> If you download the Wesnoth Lua Pack from the add-ons server, it is documented in the comments inside the file containing the debug functions.
20130508 21:59:48< mattsc> I would strongly suggest that you use it to make sure the [avoid] aspect gets read in correctly (and the location set gets set up correctly etc.)
20130508 22:00:32< mattsc> Or, if you already have AI-demos installed, there's a simplified version of it in there also.
20130508 22:01:37< jleldridge> is AI-demos something I would have to actively download, or is it included in 1.11?
20130508 22:01:52< mattsc> You need to download it.
20130508 22:01:52< jleldridge> I'll probably try to get the more robust debugger anyway
20130508 22:01:56< jleldridge> Ok
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20130508 22:05:00< mattsc> jleldridge: btw, concerning your question on the merge, I don't know the answer.  I queried Soliton about it but he's been away for the last few hours.
20130508 22:05:51< jleldridge> A commit like that just looks ugly to me, but I'm not sure what to do about it
20130508 22:06:02< mattsc> same here
20130508 22:06:10< jleldridge> If I try to collapse it into the others I think it'll just force me to do the same thing again
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20130508 22:10:06< jleldridge> I'll try to remove it when I submit this next bit I guess, couldn't hurt
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20130508 22:11:53< mattsc> Well, it makes sense to have the avoid and filter_second bits be separate commits, so you might even want to make them separate pull requests
20130508 22:14:05< jleldridge> So the wiki says that [avoid] is a StandardLocationFilter, does that mean I can use it like a SUF?
20130508 22:14:17< jleldridge> Here's what I'm doing now to try to get the avoid map:
20130508 22:14:59< jleldridge>  local avoid_filter = ai.get_avoid()
20130508 22:14:59< jleldridge>             local avoid_map = wesnoth.get_locations {avoid_filter}
20130508 22:16:46< mattsc> That is good, just that there is no need here to define the intermediate variable avoid_filter.
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20130508 22:17:16< mattsc> The other thing is that I do not know how exactly ai.get_avoid() returns the filter.
20130508 22:17:37< mattsc> If it is really a full SLF in WML table format, then the syntax needs to be:
20130508 22:17:59< mattsc> local avoid_map = wesnoth.get_locations( ai.get_avoid() )
20130508 22:18:08< mattsc> Not the use of () instead of {}
20130508 22:18:15< mattsc> s/Not/Note
20130508 22:18:34< jleldridge> Is that vim search and replace syntax? :P
20130508 22:18:48< mattsc> So that's what WLP dbms() is very useful for.
20130508 22:18:57< mattsc> sed syntax, I believe.
20130508 22:19:13< mattsc> vim might be using it too though  :)
20130508 22:19:24< fabi_> mattsc: ping
20130508 22:19:35< mattsc> fabi_: hallo
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20130508 22:20:56< jleldridge> mattsc: I'm heading out for a bit, I'll do some more work on this later
20130508 22:21:01< jleldridge> Thanks again for your help :)
20130508 22:21:27< fabi_> mattsc: The unit tool is ready so far. I can start adding an ai feature to it.
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20130508 22:23:16< mattsc> fabi_: sounds good.  Do you need anything from me for that?
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20130508 23:09:14< anonymissimus> is there something like svn-git to access a remote git repo from a local svn repo ? (pls don't ask why)
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20130508 23:48:09< anonymissimus> mattsc: which of your micro_ais do you know are actually used ? I use the healer support and the protect_unit one; UtbS uses messenger, which may also be useful in DM::Clash at the manor
20130508 23:48:59< anonymissimus> mattsc: I wrote something about the bottleneck defense ai here http://gna.org/patch/?3899 which basically means that that ai is not really useful
20130508 23:49:31< anonymissimus> so, that's perhaps the ones you should spend most effort on
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--- Log closed Thu May 09 00:00:01 2013