--- Log opened Fri May 31 00:00:09 2013
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20130531 00:22:44< fabi> LordBob_: hihu
20130531 00:23:40< LordBob_> fabi: I'm almost done with the templates
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20130531 00:51:54< irker797> wesnoth: Emilien Rotival wesnoth-old:master 3f0360 / / (50 files in 2 dirs): Placeholder artwork for experimental GUI theme http://git.io/1OxxTQ
20130531 00:54:18< LordBob_> fabi: done. You should have all the art you want to develop the prototype, i.e. a complete set of placeholder backgrounds and icons for relevant profile elements (damage type, unit specialities and unit abilities)
20130531 00:54:22< vultraz_laptop> LordBob_: oo, nice, :D can't wait for the maingame theme to get upgraded
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20130531 00:55:55< LordBob_> Now, now, don't be hasty. First we have to go develop the proof-of-concept, make random experiments, tinker, swear, start over, ... :p
20130531 00:58:22< fabi> LordBob_: :-)
20130531 01:01:18< LordBob_> fabi: note that placeholder icons show the initial letters of the ability/speciality they represent, and are named after it; I didn't include any for traits, though, because they seemed hardly relevant in the profile comparison
20130531 01:02:43< shadowm> Letters in icons can be a trap for translations.
20130531 01:03:19< fabi> shadowm: Why did you give me a new sidebar? Is there a reason to not just use the editor one?
20130531 01:03:42< shadowm> fabi: I haven't given you anything?
20130531 01:04:08< fabi> shadowm: sorry
20130531 01:04:11< fabi> LordBob_: ^
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20130531 01:05:35< LordBob_> fabi: there isn't. I included the file just in case you would have wanted to keep editor and game theme artwork completely separated
20130531 01:05:56< fabi> okay
20130531 01:06:11< LordBob_> fabi: other than that, elements that have identical names also have the same dimensions
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20130531 01:07:41< LordBob_> fabi: one exception: the sidebar-top element will have to change depending on wether or not the replay bar is active, or be entirely different from the editor's to allow for the aforementionned
20130531 01:08:41< fabi> I see. Should be easily doable.
20130531 01:10:18< irker797> wesnoth: Emilien Rotival wesnoth-old:master 2dbcdd / data/core/images/themes/game/ (22 files in 2 dirs): Renamed the folder for consistency with the editor theme http://git.io/HcpjjA
20130531 01:10:46< LordBob_> And now, I sleep. Later.
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20130531 01:23:36< fabi> vultraz_laptop: around?
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20130531 01:53:04< vultraz> fabi: kinda
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20130531 08:36:35< thunderstruck> vultraz: the problem is gone. Thank you.
20130531 08:37:28< vultraz> no prob :)
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20130531 09:10:28< irker269> wesnoth: Emilien Rotival wesnoth-old:master 92ad90 / images/icons/profiles/ (good.png lawful.png): Renamed file to match the name of the corresponding alignment http://git.io/VYX04w
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20130531 14:01:36< vultraz_laptop> there seems to be a problem with the End Turn button being disabled at scenario end :/
20130531 14:01:49< vultraz_laptop> also, planning mode now seems to turn itself on by default
20130531 14:06:49< vultraz_laptop> fabi: also, seems like using the editor randomly results on it zooming out slightly
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20130531 14:36:02< fabi> vultraz_laptop: I can't reproduce one of the issues you report. Please be more specific.
20130531 14:39:44< vultraz_laptop> fabi: huh...for the editor, it doesn't happen all the time, but usually it happen when selecting a terrain/tool. Dunno how else to reproduce it.. Re the end turn button, I think Espreon might've had something similar, I'll ask him later
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20130531 15:12:31< fabi> vultraz_laptop: Who is the maintainer of the music packs?
20130531 15:16:04< vultraz> fabi: I think Pentarctagon ( http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37141 )
20130531 15:20:49< fabi> vultraz: It would be cool if those packs came with the editor wml included.
20130531 15:21:28< fabi> vultraz: Do you know if they include playlist macros?
20130531 15:21:45< vultraz> I have most of them installed, and I don't think so
20130531 15:23:34< vultraz> fabi: do you need an [editor_music] tag to have you music in the editor?
20130531 15:23:51< fabi> yes
20130531 15:24:25< vultraz> and a playlist macro?
20130531 15:24:44< fabi> not necessarily.
20130531 15:25:19< fabi> [editor_music] just eats [music] iirc.
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20130531 17:11:44< bumbadadabum> fabi: The editor sidebar is a bit bugged for me
20130531 17:12:04< bumbadadabum> also the terminal gives errors when opening the editor
20130531 17:12:17< bumbadadabum> (I last compiled a few minutes ago)
20130531 17:12:34< vultraz> bumbadadabum: well, what does it do...
20130531 17:12:38< vultraz> and say
20130531 17:14:14< bumbadadabum> vultraz: http://pastebin.com/jzqhUrDx
20130531 17:14:51< vultraz> hm...
20130531 17:14:57< vultraz> all happen to me except line 13
20130531 17:16:16< bumbadadabum> vultraz: http://i.imgur.com/PkbGWyM.jpg
20130531 17:16:39< vultraz> whatdafuck
20130531 17:16:41< vultraz> O_O
20130531 17:17:23< vultraz> bumbadadabum: you're latest HEAD and everything, right?
20130531 17:17:30< bumbadadabum> vultraz: yes
20130531 17:18:35< bumbadadabum> trying to rebuild
20130531 17:20:40< bumbadadabum> still doesn't work
20130531 17:20:55< vultraz_laptop> build again
20130531 17:20:59< vultraz_laptop> er
20130531 17:21:00< vultraz_laptop> building
20130531 17:21:05< vultraz_laptop> and I'll check myself
20130531 17:23:17< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: fine for me
20130531 17:24:10< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: line 13 in your paste may cause it for you
20130531 17:24:16< vultraz_laptop> but IDK why you get that and I don't
20130531 17:24:18< vultraz_laptop> :/
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20130531 17:26:13< bumbadadabum> vultraz_laptop: The file is nonexistent
20130531 17:26:26< bumbadadabum> I think you might have forgotten to commit it
20130531 17:26:33< bumbadadabum> or change a name or something
20130531 17:27:01< vultraz_laptop> me? the theme images are lordbob's department
20130531 17:27:12< bumbadadabum> you have them in your repo?
20130531 17:27:31< bumbadadabum> they might  have been renamed by you
20130531 17:28:17< vultraz_laptop> if it was renamed how would I know...
20130531 17:28:25< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: what res are you using?
20130531 17:28:52< bumbadadabum> resolution?
20130531 17:29:12< bumbadadabum> Checking video mode: 1366x713x32...
20130531 17:29:14< bumbadadabum> setting mode to 1366x713x32
20130531 17:29:19< vultraz_laptop> hm...
20130531 17:29:48< vultraz_laptop> well possibly the absence of that image is causing problems
20130531 17:30:14< bumbadadabum> it is
20130531 17:30:27< bumbadadabum> because if you'd fit that in it'd look all right
20130531 17:30:42< vultraz_laptop> then talk to lordbob when he returns
20130531 17:32:20< bumbadadabum> ok
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20130531 17:57:01< thunderstruck_> vultraz_laptop: I noticed issue with End Turn button at the end of scenario. It stays disabled if the game finished on AI turn.
20130531 17:57:14< thunderstruck_> vultraz_laptop: I'll try to come with a fix today.
20130531 17:57:29< thunderstruck_> if the games was finished*
20130531 18:05:47< vultraz> ah ok
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20130531 18:29:31< Espreon> vultraz: My issue was with the End Scenario button.
20130531 18:30:07< Espreon> ... but I guess they're not separate bugs.
20130531 18:31:11< Espreon> Oh, we are talking about the same thing, it seems.
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20130531 18:46:28< thunderstruck_> It is the same button just the title is different.
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20130531 18:48:13< Espreon> Yes, yes.
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20130531 21:02:44< irker451> wesnoth: Andrius Silinskas wesnoth-old:master f458b2 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: Fix "End Turn/Scenario" button's state at the end of scenario. http://git.io/mj3eZQ
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20130531 21:04:39< thunderstruck> vultraz: ^
20130531 21:05:03< thunderstruck> that should fix it
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20130531 21:28:20< Crab_> love1cat: so, when AI does attacks, it cannot consider the effects of next-turn counterattacks serious enough.
20130531 21:28:26< love1cat> Crab_: OK. switched. I thought we were in dev channel
20130531 21:29:46< Crab_> love1cat: (btw, also make sure you're working with -trunk wesnoth branch, not an older version)
20130531 21:31:11< Crab_> power projection is 'if all enemy units tried to attack this one hex, what's the "rating" of the damage they can do'
20130531 21:31:24< love1cat> Crab_: does is mean "master" branch on github?
20130531 21:31:27< Crab_> yes
20130531 21:32:24< love1cat> Crab_: OK. i'll do a rebase before sending the pull request
20130531 21:33:27< Crab_> love1cat: if your version was significantly different, you might have problems during the rebase, there might be some upstream changes requiring a very careful merge.
20130531 21:35:11< love1cat> Crab_: I branched from 1.10.6, if I'll have big problems, I may consider creating a new branch from master and adding my files in
20130531 21:36:49< Crab_> ok. the biggest problems are where you copied existing code, and changed it; meanwhile upstream fixed a thing or two in the code, yet your copy doesn't get the fixes/improvements.
20130531 21:37:46< Crab_> so, continuing about the power_projection :
20130531 21:38:02< Crab_>  power_projection is not good for calculating next-turn counterattack for two reasons: (1) not all enemy units would be alive next turn (hopefully we'll kill some :) )   (2) it's important to know how much they can hit us all together, not just how much damage then can cause on one hex
20130531 21:39:47< Crab_> it would be  nice if we could make a new power projection function, that'll take a hypothetical situation and quickly/approximately calculate how much we'll be hit. then we'll be able to use this function while planning attacks.
20130531 21:40:56< Crab_> basically, the idea is to let the AI quickly answer a question like 'if we make those attacks against 1..2 defenders, do we have a potential good follow-up? if yes, rate those attacks higher'
20130531 21:41:33< love1cat> Crab_: I see. 
20130531 21:43:24< love1cat> Crab_: I can think about it.
20130531 21:44:09< Crab_> fixing bugs in power_projection is nice, but will not help us plan attacks that much. e.g. if the enemy has 4 red mages (great ranged attack, heavy damage) in the open, and we have 12 goblin knights, then it would probably make sense to attack if we can them - but the power projection will tell "hey, those 4 mages can deal very heavy damage to anyone next turn, killing anyone on any hex"
20130531 21:44:49< Crab_> but, (1) we might kill some of them before next turn if we do attack, (2) there are only 4 of them, they cannot kill everyone everywhere, even if they can do some heavy attacks on 1-2 units. 
20130531 21:45:32< Crab_> so, think about it, if you'd like to try to work on this, we can discuss it on more detail once you finish with rebasing the multiple attacks code.
20130531 21:47:56< love1cat> Crab_: Thank you for so much details crab! I'm sorry but I have to leave now for around 2 hours. I saved all the chat logs. If there is anything else I need to know, please send them to my email. I appreciate.
20130531 21:48:40< Crab_> love1cat: it's ok, good luck, then. let me know once you'll be ready to try working on the next-turn counterattack analysis.
20130531 21:49:28< love1cat> Crab_: sure. have a good night and weekend!
20130531 21:49:32< Crab_> thanks
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20130531 21:54:10< flix> Crab_: Hello! Unusual time for you to be here :)
20130531 21:54:30< Crab_> flix: I'm available to talk now if you'll have any questions you want me to answer. There's still plenty of time before the official start date, so it's not necessary to do anything at this point, but I'll be glad to help/answer questions, if you want :)
20130531 21:54:43< Crab_> thunderstruck: ^ also, if you have any questions
20130531 21:55:01< Crab_> flix: just friday evening :)
20130531 21:55:05< flix> Crab_: I've got this label thing working! It didn't work because of this little line here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/data/ai/formula/new_recruitment.fai#L311
20130531 21:55:18< flix> Crab_: Okay, good to know.
20130531 21:55:46< thunderstruck> Crab_: hello. Maybe not today. I'm a bit tired after walking trip today.
20130531 21:56:11< Crab_> thunderstruck: ok! ping me (here/email/pm) next week, then.
20130531 21:56:37< Crab_> flix: great. is the skull symbol still showing up? (as I remember, it was on leaders of sides the AI decides to kill first)
20130531 21:57:09< thunderstruck> Crab_: Sure. By the way, what time zone do you live in?
20130531 21:58:20< flix> Crab_: No, are you confusing the new_recruitment.fai with something else? Because it is only the recruitments phase. So there is no decision taken which leader to kill first. 
20130531 21:58:32< Crab_> thunderstruck: Europe/Zurich, UTC+2 in summer
20130531 21:58:49< Crab_> flix: I just meant the skull label
20130531 21:59:19< Crab_> flix: the code has a list of 'direct enemies', and it was marking their leaders with skulls
20130531 21:59:19< flix> Crab_: some leaders get marked with "************"
20130531 21:59:52< flix> Crab_: yes, so then it's just "*********" instead of a skull
20130531 22:00:04< Crab_> flix: I see. then, it no longer works. previously, ********* was a pango markup for 'make the next item bigger, a lot'
20130531 22:00:25< flix> Crab_: ah, I see
20130531 22:01:15< Crab_> so, Dragonking made it display a big skull next to some of the enemy leaders, just for the fun of it.
20130531 22:01:17< flix> Crab_: I now completely understood new_recruitment.fai including this c++ function calculate_map_ownership()
20130531 22:01:28< flix> Crab_: ah okay :)
20130531 22:02:30< Crab_> flix: great. what are you planning on doing next? (I have some suggestions)
20130531 22:03:37< flix> Crab_: In the process of understanding it I wrote for each function a nice comment. If you have nothing against it I'd like to commit it.
20130531 22:04:15< Crab_> flix: you're welcome. in general, feel free to commit any code changing  places where no one else is actively working.
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20130531 22:04:37< flix> Crab_: Right now I'm studying this rush_recruitment in lua. But give me your suggestions please.
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20130531 22:05:34< Crab_> flix: I would suggest to set up your CA (or several of them), since you'll want to frequently test one against another and do experiments measuring the effect of your changes, and maybe improve the testing framework to better suit your needs.
20130531 22:06:50< flix> Crab_: Have also a brief look at my Goals/Milestones: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:Flixx/GSoC_2013/AI:_AI:_Refactor_recruitment_algorithm#Goals_.2F_Milestones
20130531 22:07:28< flix> Crab_: So, yes I even wrote there that I will now (until June 16) set up another CA :)
20130531 22:07:31< Crab_> flix: reading it in the moment, as well. basically, point (3) looks a good next thing to do (but set up several of those CAs, as you'll need to test them one against another)
20130531 22:08:10< Crab_> flix: since the current recruitment is simple enough, you'll be able to actually win against it if you put in a good map+combat analysis+your counter-recruitment combo
20130531 22:09:36< Crab_> flix: so, even starting from scratch, you'll have a good base where you'll be able to try things. e.g. if you take map ownership determination from fai recruitment, you'll be able to see how good it is by testing "your recruitment with standard map/combat analysis" vs "your recruitment with map/combat analysis based on what Dragonking has done in his version
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20130531 22:12:11< Crab_> flix: also note http://xkcd.com/1205/ , if you'll do a task like "run tests and analyze results" 5 times per day for 100 days", then it would make sense to spent up to a whole day (~500 minutes) to optimize the way you get the testing results, even if you only shave off a minute of time.
20130531 22:12:52< Crab_> flix: so, if you can make that script better for you or easier to use/analyze results, spend time on it, it'll pay off.
20130531 22:13:19< flix> Crab_: this is just great :D
20130531 22:13:34< flix> Crab_: So for the next days I have now following things in mind: (1) do ^ (2) completely understand rushers recruitment (since as far I understood it's one of the best so far) and (3) commit my patches. 
20130531 22:13:53< Crab_> ok, looks good
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20130531 22:14:53< flix> Crab_: Also note that I feel quiet convenient now in setting up new CAs and testing them (including the parameter thing inside the [candidate_action]).
20130531 22:15:21< flix> Crab_: So right now I have no idea how I could improve my future workflow. 
20130531 22:15:48< flix> Crab_: (I could by a faster Notebook for running the test :D)
20130531 22:15:56< flix> s/by/buy
20130531 22:16:12< Crab_> :) 
20130531 22:16:57< flix> Crab_: I already found out for example, that it's totally fine to run 2 tests at a time if you have 2 cores.
20130531 22:17:13< Crab_> or find a nice way to run those tests while you're not working :))
20130531 22:18:47< Crab_> or try to do smaller tests (e.g. how many runs are necessary to get some useful data?)
20130531 22:19:05< Crab_> maybe there're some ideas that can make it faster and more convenient
20130531 22:19:11< flix> Crab_: I thought of something to define multiple tests inside ai_test2.cfg so that they run one after another. So I could activate it when I go to sleep and the next day are multiple tests done. But I have not figured out yet if it is worth it according to xkcd ;)
20130531 22:19:41< Crab_> xkcd uses a 5-year timespan, while you're looking at ~100 days :)
20130531 22:22:30< flix> Crab_: btw: I don't like new_recruitment.fai so much. Basically because it does big work of finding those important hexes but then some basic combat-analysis (where those hexes are not really taken into account) is weighted massively.
20130531 22:22:52< Crab_> flix: you'll be able to do way better in C++
20130531 22:24:39< flix> Crab_: I will :). And I can definitely make use of the ideas in calculate_map_ownership().
20130531 22:24:47< Crab_> flix: great. Also, if you're running tests in the background, you might consider desktop notifications to let you know when it finishes (in a form of a popup)
20130531 22:25:09< Crab_> (unless you already know by some other way)
20130531 22:27:35< flix> Crab_: No it's not worth it. When I'm really on the PC while running test I continuously check the output. And also I usually break the test when they are above 1000. (So e.g. I run the tests, go to sleep, and break them the next morning and start the next tests) 
20130531 22:28:34< Crab_> flix: ok
20130531 22:28:57< flix> Crab_: I more thought of how I could use the computing time of my room mates :D
20130531 22:29:19< Crab_> flix:  :))) or if you can speedup things by not making wesnoth load anew for each matchup...
20130531 22:29:55< Crab_> flix: e.g. why not let a single wesnoth binary run 1000 times in a loop, instead of loading it anew (+parsing all the WML) each time? it depends on the time it takes to load/run a game, of course.
20130531 22:30:11< flix> Crab_: oh, this sounds interesting... you think it could be done easily?
20130531 22:30:29< Crab_> Using the extra computing time might be easier and more productive, of course :)
20130531 22:30:49< Crab_> flix: depends. you need to check how long it takes for wesnoth to load, and how long it takes to play the game.
20130531 22:31:06< Crab_> e.g. make wesnoth write time on game start/game end, and compare to binary start/binary stop time
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20130531 22:35:27< Crab_> see what % is eaten by the game, and what % is eaten by startup/cleanup.
20130531 22:35:29< flix> Crab_: I check it now
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20130531 22:35:52-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (Please read the dev-ml for the latest status!) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 192 bugs, 332 feature requests, 31 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130531 22:35:52-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Thu May 30 23:37:41 2013]
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20130531 22:35:52[ Crab_          ] [ esr      ] [ jetrel_laptop] [ Nephro     ] [ Soliton      ] [ zookeeper     ] 
20130531 22:35:52[ Crendgrim      ] [ exciton_ ] [ Kexoth       ] [ nurupo     ] [ thunderstruck] 
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20130531 22:35:52-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 61 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 61 normal]
20130531 22:35:59-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20130531 22:36:36< Crab_> also, trying to make sure you don't have a lot of dependencies on your files in the header files, so changes in your files won't cause other files to be recompiled.
20130531 22:37:00< Crab_> then, change in 1-2 files results in 1-2 files being quickly recompiled, then linking, if non-debug and with gold linker, is relatively fast.
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20130531 22:37:16< Crab_> if you change a magic 'rebuild all' header, it's still messy
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20130531 22:38:56< Crab_> flix: see start_local_game_commandline in multiplayer.cpp - that is called with cmdline params to play a game. if you make it randomly shuffle the params or read the params from a file, you can make it play N games in a row
20130531 22:40:09< Crab_> flix: so, if your calculation will show that a big % is spent outside of 'game', in  binary startup, you can try to make a loop there to play the same game N times (easy and maybe good enough), or to do some changes to params (side numbers, race, etc).
20130531 22:43:29< flix> Crab_: okay, I'll see... (I don't like this too much though because it would mean that we can throw the python script away, and I'd need to kind of "rebuild" the whole script in c++)
20130531 22:43:46< Crab_> flix: no, you don't need to rebuild everything in C++...
20130531 22:44:16< Crab_> flix: if you can just make the script parse several games per run, and make C++ run the game N times with same params (but different random seed), it'll be good enough, if a big % is spent out-of-game
20130531 22:44:33< Crab_> but don't bother if most of the time is spent in the game itself (from start to finish)
20130531 22:45:39< flix> Crab_: Oh, yes this would be a nice compromise indeed.
20130531 22:46:25< Crab_> flix: ok. fI'll be going now, bye. see you next week.
20130531 22:46:51< flix> Crab_: btw, according what you said 11:35:37 I do everything wrong :D
20130531 22:47:09< flix> Crab_: okay, have a nice weekend :)
20130531 22:48:04< flix> Crab_: (i thing there is a timeshift I mean this: " using multiple cores, not using debug mode, using gold linker, using more powerful machine" )
20130531 22:48:19< flix> s/thing/think
20130531 22:48:37< Crab_> flix: yes, there's a timeshift, the server time can be taken from http://www.wesnoth.org/irclogs/2013/05/%23wesnoth-dev.2013-05-31.log
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