--- Log opened Fri Jun 07 00:00:14 2013
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20130607 04:24:25< irker051> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 2139c8 / data/ai/micro_ais/ (ais/mai_guardian_engine.lua ais/micro_ais_wml_tags.lua scenarios/guardians.cfg): Zone guardian MAI: add optional station_x,station_y= keys http://git.io/WV87eQ
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20130607 04:49:28< mattsc> H-Hour (if you read the logs): that last commit ^ provides the option to give a single-hex station for the zone guardian instead of having it randomly move inside the zone.  I've updated the wiki too.
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20130607 10:01:56< LordBob_> fabi: ping ?
20130607 10:02:07< fabi> LordBob_: pong
20130607 10:02:55< LordBob_> fabi: https://www.dropbox.com/s/66bwaomzizswm2i/tod-schedule-TTBS.jpg 
20130607 10:03:00< vultraz> hullo LordBob_ 
20130607 10:03:27< LordBob_> fabi: do you prefer them in a single png file like the 24 hours schedule, or sliced ?
20130607 10:03:37< fabi> hmm
20130607 10:03:37< LordBob_> hello vultraz
20130607 10:05:22< fabi> both is fine
20130607 10:05:24< LordBob_> (note that it's all placeholders; the schedule reads from right to left,)
20130607 10:05:37< fabi> are they in the right size?
20130607 10:05:43< fabi> They seem to be huge.
20130607 10:06:04< LordBob_> They're twice the final size
20130607 10:06:26< LordBob_> I'll shrink them before commit, of course
20130607 10:07:20< fabi> ah yes
20130607 10:07:52< vultraz> do artists always work on n times final size?
20130607 10:10:19< LordBob_> vultraz: for anything where pixel-scale doesn't matter, yes, it's quite commonplace. There'd be little point in doing so with sprites or icons, however
20130607 10:11:01< LordBob_> vultraz: in digital painting, this gives us a finer control over detail and brushstrokes
20130607 10:11:38< LordBob_> vultraz: and if a high res image is ever needed, then bam, you already have it
20130607 10:12:42< LordBob_> vultraz: take the unit portraits, for instance: my working size is usually in the 1000-3000 pixels
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20130607 10:13:56< shadowm_desktop> I take it you zoom out to draw the basic shapes and zoom to 100% for the details?
20130607 10:14:16< shadowm_desktop> Either that or your screen/combined screen size is incredibly large...
20130607 10:14:17< vultraz_android> LordBon_: I.'
20130607 10:14:26< vultraz_android> ...
20130607 10:14:27< vultraz_android> Ufh
20130607 10:14:34< vultraz_android> Mobilew kewyboard
20130607 10:14:54< LordBob_> vultraz: in the specific case of UI elements, I'm doing as much stuff as I can at twice the size in the hope that we will be able to implement support for high-res displays such as the Retina in a not-too-distant future
20130607 10:15:02< vultraz_android> Im thinkinf of amking a concept  for an updated mp lobby
20130607 10:15:09< LordBob_> shadowm_desktop: the former :)
20130607 10:16:17< vultraz_android>  The gui1;lobby is ugly and the gui2 is impractible 
20130607 10:16:26< vultraz_android> Ughb ots son hardnton ype on here
20130607 10:16:38< vultraz_android> Sp hard to type
20130607 10:16:39< vultraz_android> So
20130607 10:16:40< shadowm> vultraz_android: See my message in the other channel.
20130607 10:17:10< vultraz_android> Ill see it when i get back to one of my laptops
20130607 10:18:26< LordBob_> vultraz: are you typing with your feet, or nose maybe ? :p
20130607 10:19:06< vultraz_android> No, on landsvape view, it jiust gives a cramped keyboard
20130607 10:19:28< vultraz_android> Er
20130607 10:19:31< vultraz_android> Portrait view
20130607 10:19:55< vultraz_android> You get a biffer keyboard un landscapw
20130607 10:20:24 * shadowm facepalms.
20130607 10:21:02 * vultraz_android switches to landscapw
20130607 10:25:33< LordBob_> Well, good luck with your keyboard. If you want to give the mp lobby a go, I can give a hand where needed. Don't hesitate to take a look in the images/dialogs folder: there's spare artwork for several kind of dialog backgrounds in there.
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20130607 10:49:35< LordBob_> fabi: where should I commit the experimental schedule ?
20130607 10:50:15< fabi> LordBob_: Hmm, best in the resources.
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20130607 10:53:10< irker326> wesnoth: Emilien Rotival wesnoth-old:master a3fa90 / resources/tod-schedules/tod-schedule-ttbs.png: New artwork for experimental ToD schedule http://git.io/uzdb3Q
20130607 10:53:22< LordBob_> fabi:  ^
20130607 10:54:03< LordBob_> fabi: I committed the whole schedule as a single picture : it's easier to handle & update
20130607 10:54:04< shadowm> Don't you have a wesnoth-umc-dev tree for that?
20130607 10:54:08< shadowm> fabi:
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20130607 11:24:56< fabi> shadowm: Yes, somewhere. But I think resources is the better place, the new after the fall schedule will be one of the editor's presets.
20130607 11:25:18< shadowm> No.
20130607 11:25:20< shadowm> It won't be.
20130607 11:25:29< fabi> sure
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20130607 11:46:24< fabi> hi H-Hour
20130607 11:46:33< H-Hour> hi fabi
20130607 11:46:42< fabi> H-Hour: I like your idea. But I am working on another solution that is easy to implement.
20130607 11:46:56< fabi> H-Hour: Do you have time to discuss it?
20130607 11:46:59< H-Hour> sure
20130607 11:47:39< fabi> H-Hour: Okay, the moment the player decides to download more campaigns will most likely be at the moment she scans the campaign list.
20130607 11:49:05< fabi> H-Hour: Thus an extra download button in the campaign selection dialog that opens the addon manager but with campaign filter preselected is a good solution.
20130607 11:49:35< H-Hour> i agree
20130607 11:51:54< fabi> H-Hour: It's not a hard coding task and doesn't require changing the dialogs, except the extra button.
20130607 11:51:54< H-Hour> i think it's definitely the best for single player campaigns (the vast majority of users). one thing I would suggest is to display on the Add-ons Manager window the filter.
20130607 11:51:54< H-Hour> i did not even know about the filters until i just made my mockup and noticed the options button
20130607 11:52:00< H-Hour> (by filter i mean the checkboxes in options, not the text filter)
20130607 11:52:22< fabi> yeah, they are somewhat hidden.
20130607 11:52:47< fabi> shadowm coded the filters you might want to talk to him about improvements.
20130607 11:53:38< H-Hour> honestly, i am not agitating for change. i'm sure you guys all have your own priorities on the most important improvements. i was just trying to offer some practical ways forward on the issue.
20130607 11:54:02< fabi> H-Hour: No, Wesnoth development is more chaotic.
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20130607 11:55:35< H-Hour> and, actually, i have more of a personal motive. i make mp campaigns, so i'd love to see a mechanism which encouraged users to look at what add-on types exist beside "campaign" :)
20130607 11:58:39< shadowm> No, they are not somewhat hidden, you just failed a spot check. :)
20130607 11:58:40< fabi> H-Hour: The next version of Wesnoth will hopefully feature a gui that let you see MP Campaigns in a dedicated list. In the near of that list I will also add the button that triggers the addon manager but with MP Campaigns prefiltered.
20130607 11:58:52< shadowm> If they were very visible there'd be no space for the add-ons list.
20130607 11:59:10< irker326> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master b9a35c / src/sound_music_track.cpp: Demote all music_track::resolve() output to the info log level and clarify origi http://git.io/TqCi0Q
20130607 11:59:26< H-Hour> fabi, that sounds great
20130607 12:02:39< fabi> shadowm: One feature that is very important is still missing in the filter options: A filter that shows only campaigns translated into the users chosen language.
20130607 12:02:39< H-Hour> shadowm, i was talking about just showing currently selected filter similar to the very top of this mockup (where it says "Add-on Types: All")
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> fabi: Worthless to me.
20130607 12:02:39< H-Hour> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=38906&start=105#p554822
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> My campaign hasn't even been translated yet.
20130607 12:02:39< fabi> :-)
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> There's also the problem that campaignd has no idea about translation stats, so it could be listing German when the .mo file only has one translated string out of 10,000.
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> I am sure mordante and trademark will solve that with the replacement, so I'll see about it then.
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> Or at least will pave the way for that somehow.
20130607 12:02:39< shadowm> Not sure the gettext API can even get stats out of a .mo file?
20130607 12:03:28< shadowm> H-Hour: Well, I think I considered that at some point? Not sure.
20130607 12:03:49< shadowm> The thing is, the dialog uses a GUI framework that makes it impossible to do what you want without adding more features and dealing with unexplained magic numbers all over the place.
20130607 12:04:18< shadowm> Adding the possibility to have a button on the top right corner took me a few days.
20130607 12:05:00< H-Hour> shadowm, i understand. i've done UI work with ufo: alien invasion and the framework is... an adventure of sorts. :)
20130607 12:07:42< shadowm> It also kind of wants the dialog message (which would correspond to the "Add-on Types:" line in your mock-up) to take a whole line of its own.
20130607 12:08:06< shadowm> Although that could be emulated by making the "Filter:" label contain the message too.
20130607 12:08:43< shadowm> I'm just not sure what would happen with a sufficiently long translation. I'd have to test that... I haven't done much in mainline for a while. :/
20130607 12:09:44< fabi> shadowm: I count 8 translations for IftU.
20130607 12:10:01< shadowm> fabi: That's not my _my_ campaign. That's my campaign and a bunch of other miscellaneous people's.
20130607 12:10:30< shadowm> H-Hour: As for the separate dialog for displaying add-on types, what's the problem with the current approach? (Which also includes a button to toggle the selection.)
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20130607 12:11:42< H-Hour> shadowm: if you're referring to the small text at the top, i think it is just more noticeable. I didn't even look in the options button until i went to make that mockup, so never knew it was there.
20130607 12:12:41< H-Hour> shadowm: if you're talking about the bigger menu with addon types and descriptions, that was prepared in response to fabi's post, in which he was talking about a new user who doesn't know or understand wesnoth addons. but fabi's got a simpler approach to catch them anyway.
20130607 12:13:04< shadowm> Yes, the latter is what I was talking about.
20130607 12:14:04< shadowm> Also, I agree that showing what add-ons are being displayed on the list without opening the Options dialog is a good idea, but it will get _very_ messy if you have all types sans one checked.
20130607 12:15:02< H-Hour> shadowm: yeah, i thought of that. no solution came to mind though, other than just calling it "Multiple types" or some not very useful thing like that
20130607 12:15:31< shadowm> It could probably be solved by not going into much detail and having it be "All add-ons"/"Filtered".
20130607 12:16:24< shadowm> That could go a bit further like "All add-ons"/"All installed add-ons"/"Installed add-ons (filtered)"/"Upgradable add-ons"/"Upgradable add-ons (filtered"))" and so on.
20130607 12:17:10< shadowm> 'Filtered' might not be the best word, though, since it collides with the Filter box.
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20130607 12:19:47< H-Hour> perhaps if you prefaced it with the word "showing": "Showing: All add-ons" / "Showing: All installed add-ons" / "Showing: installed add-ons" etc
20130607 12:20:36< shadowm> "All installed add-ons" vs. "Installed add-ons" isn't particularly recognizable at first glance.
20130607 12:21:14< H-Hour> oh, i get it now. i misunderstood what "filtered" meant in this case. so yeah, "showing" wouldn't work
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20130607 12:25:22< shadowm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/screenshots/addons-list-with-long-label-thingy.png    
20130607 12:25:41< shadowm> Just testing what happens if I customize the Filter box label.
20130607 12:26:26< shadowm> I imagine that for fabi's idea there could be a special case made for the "some types" portion, like "campaigns only".
20130607 12:27:41< shadowm> The catch is what happens when a sufficiently long string, as I feared. :(
20130607 12:27:44< shadowm> *with
20130607 12:27:51< shadowm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/screenshots/addons-list-with-long-label-thingy-on-800x480.png
20130607 12:29:52< shadowm> It seems like it'll have to use a separate line of its own, as in the standard approach: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21371130/screenshots/addons-list-with-long-label-thingy-on-800x480-using-the-standard-non-hacky-approach.png
20130607 12:29:55< H-Hour> would it be possble to bump the Filter: and Options button up onto the same line as Add-ons Manager, t hen give Showing its own line for long text?
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20130607 12:30:41< shadowm> It isn't possible and would break consistency with every other dialog.
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20130607 12:35:28< shadowm> Hm, wow, the GUI1 dialog message text wrapping method literally ignores the dialog's geometry because it's done before the dialog geometry even exists, taking into account just the screen width and height.
20130607 12:35:45< shadowm> Argh, I shouldn't be looking at this mess right now. I need to go.
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20130607 14:34:53< ivanovic_ontour> Espreon: it will be a while
20130607 14:35:05< ivanovic_ontour> i am currently on a business trip in denver and can't release
20130607 14:35:19< ivanovic_ontour> so there will be no release before the next weekend
20130607 14:35:30< ivanovic_ontour> also read saturdays logs for things speaking against a release
20130607 14:36:30< ivanovic_ontour> Espreon: i will also not reply to posts on the dev or i18n ml during this time
20130607 14:36:54< ivanovic_ontour> Espreon: so could you please reply to the guy asking to hold back translations that sending them in now is perfectly fine and should be done?
20130607 14:37:12< ivanovic_ontour> (though i will not commit anything before friday next week)
20130607 14:37:17< ivanovic_ontour> CU
20130607 14:40:18< irker326> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth-old:new_mp_create_ui 35be19 / src/multiplayer_create.cpp: Fix layout on low resolution. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/35be195d5078b1042765b1b245edf4b7519639cd
20130607 14:40:20< irker326> wesnoth: Boldizsár Lipka wesnoth-old:new_mp_create_ui e62c28 / src/multiplayer_configure.cpp: Don't attempt show the options dialog. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/e62c2825be824c6f31e6f0d5f0bc12f16ab2971c
20130607 14:41:08< lipkab> *attempt to
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20130607 14:45:21< fabi> lipkab: Cool, tx.
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20130607 14:49:40< vultraz> LordBob_: how goes the unit box?
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20130607 14:54:46< LordBob_> vultraz: it's taking a temporary break ; we're wrapping up the editor UI, and I'm working on the last of the portrait commission 
20130607 14:55:07< vultraz> oh?
20130607 14:55:10< vultraz> which ones are left
20130607 14:59:46< vultraz> zookeeper: speaking of portraits, how come the utbs ones aren't updated?
20130607 15:00:10< zookeeper> what do you mean?
20130607 15:00:20< zookeeper> no one's updated them?
20130607 15:00:28< zookeeper> i don't think there's more to it than that.
20130607 15:00:38< vultraz> er
20130607 15:00:41< vultraz> open for updating
20130607 15:02:51< vultraz> seems all the other campaigns are getting new portraits but no one touches utbs ever
20130607 15:03:46< zookeeper> probably because its portraits have been the least in need of an update
20130607 15:04:07< fabi> vultraz: No, that is not the reason.
20130607 15:04:52< fabi> vultraz: UtBS was under my maintenance after I joined the project around the 1.5/1.6 release. 
20130607 15:05:28< fabi> vultraz: I evaluated the state of the campaign and came to the conclusion that the player's faction is heavily broken.
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20130607 15:06:40< fabi> vultraz: Thus I started to redesign it and we delayed the art update till after the change.
20130607 15:08:22< LordBob_> vultraz: long story short, both the player faction and story elements of UtBS have been under revamp for ages. A couple of years ago, back when Kitty was still there, we considered starting a portrait revamp, but withheld for the reason fabi mentionned. Nothing much has happened with the camapign ever since AFAICT, so portraiting effort focused on other jobs
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20130607 15:08:54< zookeeper> ...and yeah, very much that too :p
20130607 15:09:07< vultraz> I don't really see how faction balancing relates to portraits 
20130607 15:09:13< vultraz> the characters will be the same 
20130607 15:09:22< lipkab> Heck. mp_options.hpp is completely unreadable.
20130607 15:09:44< vultraz> and it seems a shame to have it be the only remaining campaign will old art
20130607 15:10:01< lipkab> But I had better shut up before someone gets offended.
20130607 15:10:15< vultraz> especially now that basically every single other art aspect has now been updated since the beginning of 1.9
20130607 15:10:32< lipkab> Oh wait... I'm the author of mp_options.hpp!!!
20130607 15:10:40< vultraz> lmaooo
20130607 15:11:06< fabi> vultraz: Well, the new faction should feature new units (not re-balancing the old). Thus the characters would also look different.
20130607 15:11:09< lipkab> Well, anyways... it wasn't my idea to spam it with doc comments.
20130607 15:11:55< vultraz> fabi: I would think the main characters would look the same, portrait-wise, regardless of their unit :/
20130607 15:12:23< LordBob_> vultraz: on this we agree; however, it's been difficult to find more then three developpers with the same idea of what the faction should look like.
20130607 15:13:18< vultraz> possibly, if you were planning on making portraits for every single unit in the desert elves, then their portraits would be dependent on sprites
20130607 15:13:47< vultraz> but for the mcs like kaleh, a portrait should suit no matter what you do to the unit
20130607 15:14:09< vultraz> since he has specific characterization 
20130607 15:14:57< fabi> vultraz: Also Espreon, the new maintainer of UtBS avoids to participate in forum threads regarding UtBS. There was one not that long ago about how UtBS image should be handled. I pointed him to it but with no success.
20130607 15:15:13< lipkab> HELL I HATE COMMENTS!!! I WANT TO SEE CODE NOT COMMENTS!!!
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20130607 15:15:29< vultraz> I'm not suggesting that lordbob portraitize the whole faction, just the mcs
20130607 15:15:39< lipkab> fabi: Isn't Alarantalara the current maintainer?
20130607 15:15:42< LordBob_> vultraz: Maybe. Either way, UtBS currently feels to me like it has a huge potential for wasting work on. So until better times arise, I focus on other things
20130607 15:16:03< fabi> lipkab: Not that I know of.
20130607 15:16:33< LordBob_> vultraz: Not that I'm going to stop anyone who wants to work on it, mind. But there are a ton of other areas where good art can serve
20130607 15:17:12< vultraz> I also think that all this running in circles is hurting the campaign. IMO, someone should just make the portraits and say THIS is how they're going to look
20130607 15:17:57< fabi> vultraz: No, the campaign really needs an overhaul, artwork has to be done after that.
20130607 15:18:31< vultraz> fabi: I seem to recall alarantalara doing some work on it in 1.9
20130607 15:19:08< fabi> Yes, alarantalara is more active than Espreon regarding UtBS. Still Espreon is the maintainer, afaik.
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20130607 15:21:17< vultraz> and now it seems alarantalara has gone mia
20130607 15:21:21< bumbadadabum> ooh UtBS
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20130607 15:22:38< bumbadadabum> I'd be willing to help if people want to work on it
20130607 15:23:20< fabi> bumbadadabum: I have spend pretty much work on redesigning the campaign. LordBob_ has joined the team and we plan to remake it soon.
20130607 15:23:49< bumbadadabum> fabi: I'm most interested in the units
20130607 15:24:01< vultraz> fabi: I'd be willing to help
20130607 15:24:01< zookeeper> there not being anyone who wants to do the work isn't the biggest problem, but everyone disagreeing on how the units should be redesigned is the problem
20130607 15:24:27< fabi> zookeeper: Ah, no. I volunteer to be the dictator of the project.
20130607 15:24:33< bumbadadabum>  Let's agree that everything that's done is a step forward
20130607 15:24:38< zookeeper> the last time i checked, at least all three of me, espreon and fabi disagree on everything
20130607 15:24:54< fabi> Indeed.
20130607 15:25:27< bumbadadabum> Is it all in UtBS_E?
20130607 15:25:39< bumbadadabum> or is that something entirely else
20130607 15:25:47< vultraz> fabi: I'm not sure what I can do, but I'll help if I can
20130607 15:25:52< fabi> bumbadadabum: No, eftenborn is Espreon's project to redo UtBS.
20130607 15:25:59< bumbadadabum> ok
20130607 15:26:14< bumbadadabum> So that's one of the perspectives
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20130607 15:27:52< bumbadadabum> fabi, zookeeper: what are your ideas for the desert elves?
20130607 15:28:13< fabi> bumbadadabum: I like to design a hit and run faction for them.
20130607 15:28:46< bumbadadabum> fabi: That was my idea for an eventual redesign for my era's desert elves as well
20130607 15:30:53< bumbadadabum> Right now, they're kinda lame
20130607 15:31:08< vultraz> I don't really care exactly how they work, but hit and run seems cool
20130607 15:31:40< bumbadadabum> There should be 1 bulky unit and a support unit, but the core should be lightly armored and mobile
20130607 15:32:13< fabi> bumbadadabum, vultraz: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37095
20130607 15:32:36 * zookeeper is trying to find some of his old notes
20130607 15:32:53< bumbadadabum> fabi:  tame the "dire lynx"
20130607 15:32:59< bumbadadabum> not a big fan of that
20130607 15:33:52< bumbadadabum> my vision was to maybe have their religion be quite 'tribal' but have them still be civilized
20130607 15:33:58< bumbadadabum> and use horses
20130607 15:34:59< bumbadadabum> plus also have them evolve more towards humans
20130607 15:35:25< bumbadadabum> Elves aren't animalistic
20130607 15:36:00< vultraz> I don;t think they dance around campfire wearing warpaint
20130607 15:36:22< bumbadadabum> indeed
20130607 15:36:37< bumbadadabum> my ideas:
20130607 15:36:54< bumbadadabum> have them be mobile and lightly armored
20130607 15:37:16< bumbadadabum> be more human-like
20130607 15:37:39< bumbadadabum> darker skin
20130607 15:37:57< bumbadadabum> worship the sun and the moon
20130607 15:38:02< bumbadadabum> *suns
20130607 15:38:06< vultraz> and eloh
20130607 15:38:10< vultraz> aka elynia
20130607 15:38:36< bumbadadabum> suns, moon, and earth then
20130607 15:38:51< bumbadadabum> vultraz: She's the Earth Guardian, right?
20130607 15:39:15< vultraz> yes
20130607 15:39:20< vultraz> but they do not know
20130607 15:39:30< bumbadadabum> I was thinking to make them adapted to the desert
20130607 15:39:44< bumbadadabum> but don't make them LIKE the desert
20130607 15:39:54< bumbadadabum> they managed to deal with it
20130607 15:40:04< vultraz> they look at her as an embodiment of light
20130607 15:40:11< bumbadadabum> aka the sun
20130607 15:40:57< zookeeper> looks like i've lost all my old notes on my ideas
20130607 15:41:01< bumbadadabum> fabi: do my ideas sound decent enough?
20130607 15:43:50< vultraz> who was Keratur?
20130607 15:44:17< bumbadadabum> Wasn't that the assassin?
20130607 15:44:26< vultraz> ah
20130607 15:46:11< fabi> bumbadadabum, vultraz: Well, I like to keep the inner circle of the project small, most likely restricted to LordBob_ and me.
20130607 15:46:25< vultraz> :(
20130607 15:46:35< bumbadadabum> :[
20130607 15:46:44< fabi> bumbadadabum, vultraz: Just because a bigger team means to much discussion.
20130607 15:47:01< vultraz> 4 people seems like reasonable :/
20130607 15:47:26< fabi> bumbadadabum, vultraz: And the result is suboptimal. If you take a group of people and only do on what everyone agrees, there is not much unique left.
20130607 15:47:36< vultraz> yes, true
20130607 15:47:58< vultraz> but I would very much like to help in redesigning it
20130607 15:48:16< fabi> I have a working concept for the faction, in which I spend much time for. Not without talking to other people and value their opinions.
20130607 15:48:38< vultraz> leave bumba out :P
20130607 15:48:43< bumbadadabum> HEY
20130607 15:49:03< vultraz> ;)
20130607 15:49:04< irker326> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master ec21fa / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/ (mai_healer_support_engine.lua micro_ais_wml_tags.lua): Healer Support MAI: make [filter] work correctly when aggression=0 http://git.io/I1MlTw
20130607 15:49:38< fabi> It is not about leaving anyone out. The question is more if the additional team members can live with LordBob_ and me having the last word on every issue.
20130607 15:50:23< vultraz> why lordbob?
20130607 15:50:25< zookeeper> fabi, so if i promise not to say anything, will you let me see what you got? :>
20130607 15:50:43< bumbadadabum> vultraz: He's the artist
20130607 15:50:58< vultraz> yes, but we're talking about faction redesign
20130607 15:51:08< fabi> zookeeper: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37095
20130607 15:51:26< fabi> zookeeper: I really like to hear your opinion. Just do not count that I will follow your advice.
20130607 15:51:38< bumbadadabum> fabi: I guess I can live with it... Although I'm still not a big fan of the entire tribalistic idea
20130607 15:52:45< vultraz> fabi: so, we can all give suggestions, but you and lordbob will make the final decisions?
20130607 15:52:47< fabi> bumbadadabum: Tribalistic idea?
20130607 15:52:52< fabi> vultraz: Yes
20130607 15:53:36< bumbadadabum> fabi: Tattoes, taming of wild cats...
20130607 15:53:56< vultraz> I think they should use horses not wild cats
20130607 15:54:13< bumbadadabum> weapons made of plants
20130607 15:54:21< vultraz> PLANT weapons?
20130607 15:54:25< vultraz> I didn't see that part
20130607 15:54:29< bumbadadabum> animalistic catlike appearance
20130607 15:54:31< vultraz> no, they should not have that
20130607 15:54:43< vultraz> for one...where the hell would they get plats for said weapons
20130607 15:56:21< fabi> vultraz: The idea was to let them use weapons they can build with materials found in their environment.
20130607 15:56:36< bumbadadabum> fabi: There can be a lot of ores in the desert mountains
20130607 15:56:47< bumbadadabum> plus weapons are pretty much everywhere
20130607 15:57:08< vultraz> if they kill invaders, they can get weapons there
20130607 15:57:18< vultraz> they would also probably use things like slingshots
20130607 15:57:20< bumbadadabum> also, weapons can be used for a long time
20130607 15:57:28< vultraz> stone axes
20130607 15:57:30< bumbadadabum> bolas, spears and swords mostly
20130607 15:57:37< vultraz> bolas
20130607 15:57:41< bumbadadabum> maybe axes
20130607 15:57:43< bumbadadabum> daggers
20130607 15:57:47< vultraz> iron weapons too
20130607 15:58:31< vultraz> maybe they mine
20130607 15:59:15< bumbadadabum> I'd be ok with making them more scavenger-like
20130607 15:59:35< bumbadadabum> but IMO they should be human-like elves
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20130607 15:59:36< zookeeper> fabi, okay then. as usual, my biggest problem is with liminal, since having an alignment which only ever provides you with a malus and never a bonus of any kind is kinda annoying. sort of like why we don't have purely negative traits (except for goblins).
20130607 15:59:38< bumbadadabum> and not catlike
20130607 16:01:10< vultraz> NOT catlike
20130607 16:01:16< vultraz> please no catlike
20130607 16:01:46< bumbadadabum>  (I would suggest cat like mutation)
20130607 16:02:07< vultraz> they're still elves
20130607 16:02:11< vultraz> not Northguard
20130607 16:02:19< vultraz> (who are humans anyway)
20130607 16:03:09< fabi> The proposal is not to let them look like cats.
20130607 16:03:50< fabi> First, we only speak of half of the society.
20130607 16:04:07< fabi> The other half is more fairy like.
20130607 16:04:27< vultraz> i thought they did not have faerie magic?
20130607 16:04:40< fabi> hmmm, why?
20130607 16:04:59< vultraz> the sorceress line disappeared
20130607 16:05:22< vultraz> they only seem to have regular magic
20130607 16:06:48< fabi> Didn't I wrote about that in the forum thread?
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20130607 16:08:06< vultraz> "The second mutation type returned some of the elves to the more spiritual form of their fairy ancestors."
20130607 16:08:07< vultraz> hm...
20130607 16:08:22< vultraz> I thought the whole point of them is they they lost some of this ability
20130607 16:08:53< vultraz> I know this is not a canon reference, but in After the Storm episode 1 scenario 6, they are amazed when Elynia displays her faerie powers
20130607 16:09:04< vultraz> they even mention that the power has been long lost
20130607 16:09:30< vultraz> I think they should have magic
20130607 16:09:34< vultraz> just not faerie magic
20130607 16:09:46< vultraz> they DO have magic. they have druids
20130607 16:09:55< fabi> Ah no.
20130607 16:10:09< fabi> The druid line is no longer part of the faction.
20130607 16:10:27< vultraz> oh?
20130607 16:10:48< vultraz> well, you can give them some sort of magic user line
20130607 16:11:11< vultraz> I just very strongly do not support the idea of having them use fearie magic
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20130607 16:12:32< fabi> zookeeper: Implementing liminal with bonus at twilight times isn't easy.
20130607 16:13:02< fabi> zookeeper: At liminal times of day we have lawful_bonus=0. That is hard to translate into a useful value.
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20130607 16:14:04< vultraz> we could just add a new key
20130607 16:14:16< vultraz> liminal_bonus=
20130607 16:15:41< vultraz> fabi: anyway, what would you say on the faerie issue?
20130607 16:16:48< fabi> vultraz: The idea is to have one mutation type, being adapted to the desert by corporal adjustment.
20130607 16:17:10< vultraz> er...explain
20130607 16:17:14< fabi> vultraz: The second mutation type is adapted to the desert by being more ghostly, and less corporal.
20130607 16:18:21< fabi> My idea was to give them more fairy attributes since those are somehow the ancestors of the elves and they are more ghostly/less corporal.
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20130607 16:18:51< vultraz> fabi: uh...since when were faerie users ghostly?
20130607 16:19:06< vultraz> the elvish sylph line looks very corporal to me
20130607 16:20:31< vultraz> honestly, I don't like this...non corporal mutations stuff
20130607 16:21:26< vultraz> but if you MUST use it, may I strongly suggest that it not be referred to as similar to the old faerie ancestors
20130607 16:21:35< vultraz> make it their own branch of magic
20130607 16:21:43< vultraz> that their magic users have...come up with
20130607 16:23:00< vultraz> faerie is a branch of magic that I'm pretty sure most people have assumed was lost by the desert elves
20130607 16:23:29< fabi> Thats fine with me, in fact the fairy thing was Espreon idea. Thus you will see that in Eftenborn.
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20130607 16:34:27< irker326> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master f06daf / data/ai/micro_ais/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Micro AIs: minor grammar fixes http://git.io/y0--WQ
20130607 16:40:36< LordBob_> Oh-oh, I see there's been quite a discussion on UtBS :)
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20130607 16:46:15< fabi> LordBob_: :-)
20130607 16:50:03< LordBob_> fabi, vultraz: to be honest, I'm not keen on catlike-elves either; too much animality and they'll start looking like orcs, or some weird furry phantasmagory. I'd rather keep their visible evolutions in the range of the believeably-human: skin tone variations, darker hair... But fur, if at all, would be employed in a discrete way that doesn't make it a distinctive feature of the race 
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20130607 16:54:03< vultraz_laptop> I'm starting to update the bg for the GUI1 lobby
20130607 16:54:38< fabi> LordBob_: Agreed. All the cat like and animal thing caught too much attention. I suggested them only too a slight degree.
20130607 16:55:30< LordBob_> :)
20130607 16:55:39< AI0867> fabi: I believe it's eftboren
20130607 16:55:44< vultraz_laptop> I'm not sure I want to touch the GUI2 lobby
20130607 16:57:53< LordBob_> fabi, vultraz: as for weapons, I think we all agree that desert elves would not be able to craft steel & procure wood as easily as their ancestors did. However, just because they use makeshift materials doesn't mean they will look like they crawled right out of the stone age. A good craftsman can create awesome-looking items with any raw materials, and AFAICT our desert elves art still...
20130607 16:57:55< LordBob_> ...excellent craftsmen ;) 
20130607 16:58:00< AI0867> it needs... work, yes
20130607 16:58:04< AI0867> on the C++ side
20130607 16:59:17< AI0867> bone, leather and tendons are pretty useful materials
20130607 16:59:32< vultraz_laptop> tendons?!
20130607 16:59:40< AI0867> also, if you can make charcoal and you have red-colored sand, you can probably make steel
20130607 16:59:46< AI0867> vultraz_laptop: bowstrings
20130607 16:59:59< vultraz_laptop> o_O
20130607 17:00:05 * vultraz_laptop shudders
20130607 17:00:09< AI0867> also, the outer layer of composite bows
20130607 17:00:31< AI0867> think of it as a very large, strong fiber
20130607 17:04:07< vultraz_laptop> still, not a pleasant image...
20130607 17:05:21< LordBob_> AI0867: that's exactly the kind of things I have in mind. Steel might still be used, but would possibly have become rarer and be reserved for the weapons/armor of high-ranking characters, or used with parcimony. Good steel weapons might even be considered a valuable heirloom
20130607 17:06:51< LordBob_> vultraz: it's been in use for a very long time. Even nowadays, animal parts are still used in many places (music instruments, for instance)
20130607 17:07:07< vultraz_laptop> e_e
20130607 17:09:46< LordBob_> Chitin might be another material put to use, considering how the desert is teeming with giant scorpions
20130607 17:10:36< vultraz_laptop> what about cactus spines?
20130607 17:11:16< LordBob_> Heh. could easily  be used as dart for a blowgun,
20130607 17:12:04< LordBob_> Or arrows, provided that they have big enough cactuses :p
20130607 17:12:49< LordBob_> And we can throw in a cactus wose as an easter egg 8)
20130607 17:13:53< fabi> Yeah, the cactus wose would be cool.
20130607 17:18:16< zookeeper> my ideas always included swords and bows but limited to only a few units, and the rest non-magical units using spears, (fancy) clubs and staff slings.
20130607 17:19:42< zookeeper> clubs and slings are good weapons and elvish versions of them would probably be pretty neat
20130607 17:21:44< zookeeper> and it's not like a complete lack of materials needs to be assumed either. there'd still be trees scattered here and there even if there are no forests to speak of.
20130607 17:21:56< LordBob_> Indeed.
20130607 17:22:32< zookeeper> i'd just take the material shortage to mean that not everyone and their mom will carry a sword and bow, but rather that they're limited to a smaller set of specialists.
20130607 17:24:07< LordBob_> Yeah, this could be a good compromise between ancestry and evolution
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20130607 17:27:22< fabi> LordBob_: The old Germans (the one who won the battle against Varus) did not have enough metal to support a sword for every warrior. Thus they mostly used axes or other weapons that are only part metal.
20130607 17:27:36< fabi> LordBob_: Or not metal at all.
20130607 17:29:21< LordBob_> Yeah, that's exactly how I'm thinking. Different-shaped weapons, blade-like weapons on which only a minimal amount of stee is used as the cutting edge/piercing spike
20130607 17:29:37< LordBob_> However, all we've discussed above is background info that can be adjusted at any time. What I would like to focus on for the time being is the creation of a balanced and fun-to-play faction
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20130607 17:54:00< zookeeper> i guess a big thing is whether they have horses or not.
20130607 17:55:19< vultraz_laptop> LordBob_: where's the wooden bg image/texture in?
20130607 17:55:40< vultraz_laptop> zookeeper: I say yes to horses. If only to make sure they don't have giant cats...
20130607 18:02:02< vultraz_laptop> LordBob_: I'm looking for a big tile-able texture file
20130607 18:09:56< LordBob_> vultraz_laptop: there would be the rightside panel, but it only tiles vertically
20130607 18:11:14< vultraz_laptop> LordBob_: didn't you put a download on the forums with a big texture file?
20130607 18:11:41< LordBob_> vultraz_laptop: let me check if I have stored a fully-tileable texture somewhere 
20130607 18:11:48< LordBob_> I did
20130607 18:12:05< LordBob_> But the texture in there isn't tileable
20130607 18:12:12< LordBob_> I think
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20130607 18:14:17< vultraz_laptop> crap :/
20130607 18:14:35< vultraz_laptop> I need a wooden bg that can go over 1024x768
20130607 18:16:48< LordBob_> Well, you already have it: the size of the wooden texture is 1600x1200
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20130607 18:19:10< vultraz_laptop> oh?
20130607 18:19:31< vultraz_laptop> I don't have the image in front of me
20130607 18:19:36< vultraz_laptop> lemem go get it
20130607 18:20:47< LordBob_> zookeeper: as for mounts, do you mean the possibility that they ride horses vs other animals, or whether they should ride anything at all ?
20130607 18:22:23< zookeeper> LordBob_, dunno. i think riding other things is possible, but kind of a stretch considering how horses aren't exactly extinct.
20130607 18:23:40< vultraz> LordBob_: is it the red-wood one?
20130607 18:26:57< vultraz> yeah, pretty sure it's the red-wood one
20130607 18:28:57< LordBob_> vultraz: actually, it's the "ebony" variant
20130607 18:29:30< vultraz> don't see that one in this folder
20130607 18:30:06< vultraz> do you possibly have it in dropbox?
20130607 18:30:22< LordBob_> zookeeper: there would definitely be some horses left in the more hospitable areas of the world, but maybe they're not the best mounts for the deep desert
20130607 18:30:51< vultraz> zookeeper: camels?
20130607 18:31:08< zookeeper> camels are terribly unelegant :p
20130607 18:31:22< vultraz> as for horses, well, they do have horses in deserts 
20130607 18:31:40< vultraz> see any arabian-set adventure movie even
20130607 18:31:46< zookeeper> yeah
20130607 18:32:49< vultraz> and I would think that, in a desert, the elvish outrider's ability to ride long distances would be crucial
20130607 18:33:33< vultraz> Unless you want to go extra cheesy and have them ride giant scorpions ;)
20130607 18:33:59< LordBob_> either way, I think we definitely want to keep a rider-type unit with high mobility.
20130607 18:34:37< fabi> I like camels.
20130607 18:35:20< fabi> But they do not quite fit for elves.
20130607 18:36:10< LordBob_> vultraz: for the texture, are you sure it's not in the texture pack ? I see it in the overview, third column on the bottom row
20130607 18:36:14< zookeeper> a lvl1 scout can be a foot unit and only get a horse at lvl2
20130607 18:36:23< zookeeper> not enough horses to go around for everyone, and all that
20130607 18:36:41< fabi> Horses are not able to survive in a desert for long.
20130607 18:36:43< vultraz> LordBob_: I seem to be missing two. the overview lists 12, I have 10 :/
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20130607 18:37:17< fabi> People have all that movies in their heads with Arabian horse riders. 
20130607 18:37:45< fabi> But horses were only prestige animals.
20130607 18:38:33< fabi> Everything a camel is worth in the desert, horses lack.
20130607 18:39:18< LordBob_> vultraz: oh, you're right. here, lemme update the package
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20130607 18:43:16< LordBob_> fabi, zookeeper: so, shall we devise camel-riding elves ? :p
20130607 18:43:50< zookeeper> horses or neither, i'd say :p
20130607 18:43:57< fabi> LordBob_: No.
20130607 18:44:05< LordBob_> joking 
20130607 18:44:31< fabi> LordBob_: Better an animal that is specialized to the desert. Like the desert lynx :-)
20130607 18:44:41< zookeeper> i don't see a problem with horses, really, especially when they don't need to be as fast as elvish scouts or as resilient
20130607 18:44:42< fabi> LordBob_: Or we let them ride the giant scorpions.
20130607 18:45:14< LordBob_> vultraz: I've updated the archive in the forum
20130607 18:47:37< LordBob_> fabi, zookeeper: the thing with the desert lynx is that it's still very much an elf riding a big cat, i.e. Warcraft. This much bothers me: I would rather we used the lynx as an independent unit with specific leadership by the lynxmaster
20130607 18:48:37< zookeeper> i think i'd be fine with a beastmaster-type unit, _but_ in that case it'd make sense to make that be what the druid has evolved to
20130607 18:48:54< fabi> LordBob_: I planed that as well, a unit featuring some beastmaster concept, owning a lynx.
20130607 18:49:28< LordBob_> anyway, now is sports time. See you later, guys
20130607 18:49:34< fabi> LordBob_: The World of Warcraft argument isn't 
20130607 18:50:38< fabi> LordBob_: very convincing to me. The problem is: The world of World of Warcraft is huge. Everything can be found in there. If you try to avoid every stuff you see in WoW you can completely forget any fantasy background. 
20130607 18:52:52< LordBob_> oh wait, sport is cancelled. We can resume the discussion
20130607 18:53:34< LordBob_> So yeah, I have to admit, what WoW does or doesn't shouldn't dictate what we chose to do
20130607 18:54:54< fabi> LordBob_: And the lynx pictures I found even look like elves with their ears :-) http://static4.depositphotos.com/1015244/308/i/950/depositphotos_3086624-Desert-lynx.jpg
20130607 18:54:56< LordBob_> But still, I'm not fond of the whole elf-rides -cat concept
20130607 18:55:37< zookeeper> here's a pretty good recreation of what my idea (excluding the druid/mystic line!): http://pastebin.com/raB8FaB5
20130607 18:56:23< fabi> Well, my proposal using the giant scorpion as mount wasn't a joke.
20130607 18:57:10< fabi> zookeeper: Captain and Sentry don't really fit into the hit & run concept. The faction should not have a tank unit.
20130607 18:59:16< LordBob_> Hmm...The scorpin is fit for desert alright, but might not be the most practical of mounts
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20130607 19:02:12< fabi> LordBob_: That reminds me to something. Zerovirus did new artwork for the giant scorpion. Can we use it instead?
20130607 19:03:32< fabi> LordBob_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=525249#p525249
20130607 19:04:36< zookeeper> fabi, why would they be focused so heavily on hit-and-run, when they're living in a static location on a nice oasis in the middle of a desert and are mostly just defending against raiders and whatnot?
20130607 19:04:50< zookeeper> i'd think they have a need for tanks too
20130607 19:05:26< fabi> http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=531412#p531412
20130607 19:07:29< fabi> zookeeper: I think the hit & run design might make some nice gameplay. 
20130607 19:09:34< zookeeper> sure, and i think my idea is pretty well suited for that as is and one regular fighter line doesn't change that much
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20130607 19:12:14< LordBob_> fabi: depends. his baseframe is definitely an improvement, but is the current scropion animated ? 
20130607 19:13:24< zookeeper> very crudely
20130607 19:13:30< fabi> LordBob_: A single image for each attack and a defense one.
20130607 19:14:02< LordBob_> Hmmm...That's still better than no animation at all :/
20130607 19:14:29< fabi> right
20130607 19:16:35< LordBob_> But indeed, if we could get Zero or anyone else to make a fitting baseframe for attack & defend, I wouldn't think twice before replacing the old scorpion
20130607 19:19:49< vultraz> Zero already made a new scorpion baseframe
20130607 19:20:01< vultraz> I'll ask
20130607 19:20:05< vultraz> if youll do anims
20130607 19:20:07< vultraz> he'll
20130607 19:20:26< fabi> vultraz: yes, please do so.
20130607 19:20:33< LordBob_> Do you mean he also did attack + defend images ?
20130607 19:21:11< vultraz> er,don't think so
20130607 19:22:07< vultraz> asking him now
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20130607 19:24:16< vultraz> geez, why the hell does my session over there die whenever I'm compiling >_>
20130607 19:26:46< fabi> Also the mudcrawler: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31251
20130607 19:27:27< fabi> The small version was finished and commited but not the giant one. Now we have two different type of mudcrawlers in there. They do not look much like they belong together anymore.
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20130607 19:33:38< LordBob_> fabi: indeed, it's a shame.
20130607 19:33:54< LordBob_> fabi:  the giant mudcrawler was never animated, hoever
20130607 19:34:00< LordBob_> *however
20130607 19:35:00< fabi> LordBob_: Yeah, still the old giant mudcrawler looks like the oldest Wesnoth sprite ever. I guess even I could do better with only a little practice.
20130607 19:35:09< LordBob_> Same as the scorpion: does the current giant mudcrawler have any animations ?
20130607 19:36:17< fabi> The current one is animated.
20130607 19:36:35< LordBob_> How much ,
20130607 19:36:37< LordBob_> ?
20130607 19:36:46< LordBob_> Single frames ?
20130607 19:37:00< fabi> data/core/images/units/monsters
20130607 19:37:39< fabi> Well, 4 frames death animation.
20130607 19:38:09< fabi> 3 attack frames
20130607 19:38:13< fabi> one for the defend
20130607 19:39:32< LordBob_> Hmm...I'm tempted to give it a shot
20130607 19:39:49< LordBob_> Argh....Too many projects X_X
20130607 19:41:21< LordBob_> Anyway, fabi, back ti the matter of mounts: are you specifically set against horses ?
20130607 19:43:15< fabi> LordBob_: Well, I am all for horses. Just not in a desert where they are out of place like hell.
20130607 19:43:59< LordBob_> Hmm...They, too, could evolve
20130607 19:44:48< vultraz> fabi, LordBob_ : zero said he's going to redo his redo of the scorpion to make it even better
20130607 19:44:49< fabi> yeah, could you draw a desert horse? I would love to see one.
20130607 19:45:04< fabi> vultraz: Cool, tx. Tell him he is the greatest.
20130607 19:48:10< fabi> LordBob_: Zerovirus might also be helpful when it comes to the Quenoth sprites. He already tried some.
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20130607 19:49:11< vultraz> you might consider commissioning him
20130607 19:49:22< vultraz> he's busy with stuff, and I doubt he'd redo a whole faction for free
20130607 19:51:27< vultraz> well, I guess jetrel is the one to talk about for that
20130607 19:52:43< fabi> vultraz: Well, this isn't a mainline thing. The moment we declare the project mainline it needs we have to cope with a dozen developers and that is exactly what I try to avoid after the failure with the last team working on UtBS.
20130607 19:53:01< vultraz> still
20130607 19:53:09< vultraz> :P
20130607 19:53:34< vultraz> even if you want to get some art before it hits mainline, I doubt he'll do it for free
20130607 19:54:41< vultraz> eventually it will hit mainline
20130607 19:55:00< vultraz> and zero is one of the best choices for sprites
20130607 19:57:44< vultraz> fabi: I think your best bet would just be to say that your decisions are final, and not get sidetracked by a million suggestions
20130607 19:58:05< vultraz> or else whatever work you do will end up delayed :/
20130607 19:58:15< zookeeper> the UtBS setting is merely thousands of years in the future, so natural evolution wouldn't really have allowed for horses to adapt. obviously one can breed all sorts of horses, so... i still don't see the fundamental problem with horses.
20130607 20:00:38< fabi> zookeeper: The apocalypse (the fall) lead to mutation (magical) of animals and plants.
20130607 20:00:56< fabi> zookeeper: Thus the Quenoth elves evolved and that could also happen to horses.
20130607 20:01:00< zookeeper> or not D:
20130607 20:03:13< LordBob_> Fabi: trouble with the idea of a desert horse is that in sprite size, it would look pretty much like, well...a horse :p
20130607 20:03:14< zookeeper> there's desert horses. people use horses on deserts. they might not be as great as camels, but if you're living on a big nice oasis, then sure you could have and use horses.
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20130607 20:05:23< fabi> zookeeper: I do not assume that the elves just live on their nice oasis.
20130607 20:05:36< fabi> zookeeper: They go for large hunting tours in the desert.
20130607 20:05:47< fabi> zookeeper: Also some of them still life nomadic.
20130607 20:06:19< zookeeper> yes, but no one's saying that they take the horses for those tours or that those who live in a more inhospitable place can keep them
20130607 20:06:52< fabi> Well, that means we must leave the horses behind.
20130607 20:07:04< fabi> Featuring them only at the first scenario.
20130607 20:08:14< zookeeper> sigh. ok, they know every watering hole within a 100km radius, so they can take the horses on hunting trips and when they leave the oasis. it might be ackward and a lot of work, but better than leaving them behind. good enough? :p
20130607 20:08:54< zookeeper> i mean no one's gonna point out the horses as the unrealistic thing which breaks their suspense of disbelief
20130607 20:09:06< fabi> Horses need a lot of food, their digestive system is very inefficient. Also they need a lot of water.
20130607 20:09:53< fabi> Desert Elves relying on horses is just not a good idea.
20130607 20:10:10< zookeeper> no one said they rely on them
20130607 20:10:46< fabi> Some very rich sheik owned some horses for prestige reasons.
20130607 20:10:57< zookeeper> you're just being ridiculous here
20130607 20:12:27< fabi> Because I point out that horses can't survive in the desert?
20130607 20:12:35< zookeeper> horses can survive in the desert
20130607 20:12:53< zookeeper> i think that's a whole lot more plausible than riding lynxes
20130607 20:14:05< fabi> dire lynx :-)
20130607 20:14:57< fabi> Well, I would prefer the giant scorpions to horses if not lynxes.
20130607 20:17:55< zookeeper> i can only presume that you were kidding when you said you weren't kidding about that.
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20130607 20:20:01< vultraz_laptop> fabi: the item group images don't appear to be wired in
20130607 20:20:25< fabi> Horses need between 5 and 12 liter water per day and 100 kg.
20130607 20:21:22< fabi> Big horses can easily weight 500 kg and more.
20130607 20:23:42< fabi> vultraz_laptop: Right, I didn't wire them in yet.
20130607 20:24:21< mattsc> flix: you don't have developer access for Wesnoth on gna, do you?
20130607 20:25:43< flix>   mattsc: no, do I need it?
20130607 20:26:21< mattsc> flix: well, there are 3 patches of yours that should be marked as closed.  I could do it, but I think it would be better if you did it yourself.
20130607 20:27:41< mattsc> flix: also, there are (at least) 2 patches by pl_kolek that would be good to get reviewed, but somebody with better C++ skills than I should do that.  :)
20130607 20:28:37< flix> mattsc: Do we still use gna? I thought because because everything is on git now gna gets unnecessary. 
20130607 20:28:44< LordBob_> fabi: look up the namib desert horse. Like every other living creature, horses can adapt, and I agree with zookeeper that no-one's going to point them as THE flaw in the campaign
20130607 20:28:57< irker326> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 403c2b / images/misc/lobby.png: Updated GUI1 mplobby background http://git.io/_PB5_w
20130607 20:29:16< LordBob_> fabi: if the matter is with the _look_ of horses, then it's something entirely different
20130607 20:29:33< vultraz_laptop> I'll work on the lower res image tomorrow
20130607 20:29:43< mattsc> flix: it's still used for bug reports for the time being, and the patches that are there should at least be dealt with, even if we're going over to git pull requests more and more
20130607 20:30:48< fabi> LordBob_: I have found the article about them when I first searched for a mount for the Quenoth. 
20130607 20:31:42< fabi> LordBob_: The namib desert horse can't survive in the open desert like every other horse. It is just a bunch of european horses that survived in the near of an oasis.
20130607 20:32:53< LordBob_> Well, isn't that what the desert elves do as well ? 
20130607 20:32:55< vultraz> Hope the GUI1 lobby looks better now, and now I'm off to get some sleep, after being up almost all night pushing images around :P
20130607 20:34:24< flix> mattsc: I think this (https://gna.org/patch/?3846) is fixed here: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/fddc33649573ca303716db4abd40a2cbac2ee88f
20130607 20:34:52< flix> mattsc: It has the same bug-id
20130607 20:37:31< LordBob_> fabi: anyway, let's not let the pursuit of realism kill the fun. We could just invoke the Rule of Cool, or write a dozen different explanations as to how our horses have adapted to the desert and really have camel biology inside of them.
20130607 20:37:56< vultraz> LordBob_, fabi: zero showed me a WIP of the new new scorpion (bottom): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30179243/Pixelart/Wesnoth%20Original%20Works/scorpion_revamp.PNG
20130607 20:38:20< fabi> LordBob_: Well, horses are not cool. They are quite common. Something new and different would be cool.
20130607 20:38:47< fabi> vultraz: uh
20130607 20:38:49< LordBob_> fabi: Ah. There we are .
20130607 20:39:07< LordBob_> vultraz: that's awesome
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20130607 20:39:23< fabi> vultraz: Jast amazing.
20130607 20:39:26< mattsc> flix: I've decided that I am too confused about all the starting and carry-over bugs to be able to follow what's going on.  :P
20130607 20:39:27< fabi> s/jast/just
20130607 20:39:32< LordBob_> Zero really has improved a ton ofver the past years
20130607 20:39:36< LordBob_> *over
20130607 20:39:58< fabi> vultraz: I guess the legs aren't final?
20130607 20:40:09< vultraz> he said it's still WIP
20130607 20:40:23< mattsc> flix: I meant the patches at https://gna.org/patch/?group=wesnoth , not the bug reports
20130607 20:40:34< fabi> vultraz: Is he going to animate it as well?
20130607 20:41:43< mattsc> flix: specifically 3 by you that, I believe, you have all committed by now; 2 by pl_kolek which aren't dealt with yet.
20130607 20:41:56< flix> mattsc: :D Yes, and I was refering to patch #3846 by pl_kolek. I think this patch can be closed because it was already commited. 
20130607 20:42:21< LordBob_> fabi: we don't have to ask this much of him. Provided that we end with baseframe+pincers attack+sting attack + defend, we'll aready have made geat progress compared to the existing
20130607 20:42:31< mattsc> flix: oh, ok.  I meant 2 other patches by him then.  Didn't notice that that was also one of his.  :)
20130607 20:42:56< flix> mattsc: who can give me dev-access to gna, so I can close my patches?
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20130607 20:43:58< mattsc> flix: Ivanovic, noy and isaac
20130607 20:45:51< flix> Ivanovic: So, could you give me dev-access to gna, so I can close my patches, please? They are all committed to git.
20130607 20:47:30< mattsc> flix: actually, I think you need to go to "My Groups" on gna, and there's a "Request for Inclusion" box that you need to fill out.  Sorry, had forgotten about that.
20130607 20:49:06< mattsc> flix: then the admins (Ivanovic, noy) will get an email about it and can take care of it.
20130607 20:50:36< flix> mattsc: done. dave got a mail too :)
20130607 20:52:34< flix> mattsc: what i with this patch here: https://gna.org/patch/?3884 ? there are 83 files affected, mainly scenario cfgs.
20130607 20:53:18< mattsc> flix: yes, the changes to the cfg's are trivial, but if you could have a look at the C++ bits, that would be good.
20130607 20:53:54< mattsc> flix: the purpose of the patch is to deprecate some old AI syntax.  But in order to do that, all the mainline scenarios need to be switched over to the new syntax as well, of course.
20130607 20:54:46< flix> mattsc: okay, I'll do it tomorrow. 
20130607 20:55:29< mattsc> flix: okay, no rush at all.  Whenever you have time and when/if you feel like it.  The other one I'd be interested in is #3905.
20130607 20:56:47< flix> mattsc: oh, I like this one. Yes I'll review it too.
20130607 20:57:01< mattsc> flix: great, thanks!
20130607 20:59:41< noy> flix: it should be done
20130607 21:00:25< noy> brb
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20130607 21:04:43< flix> mattsc: should I set the status to "done", open/closed to "closed" or both?
20130607 21:05:41< mattsc> flix: I think you can do both.  And assign to yourself.
20130607 21:10:14< fabi> LordBob_: Indeed, there is no need for massive animation for the unit.
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20130607 21:14:28< flix> mattsc: all done.
20130607 21:14:55< mattsc> flix: yeah, I got the emails.  Thanks.
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20130607 21:15:11< flix> mattsc: I'll assign the 2 patches from pl_kolek to me
20130607 21:15:55< mattsc> flix: cool
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20130607 22:20:40< fabi> LordBob_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=554847#p554847
20130607 22:22:47< LordBob_> Oooooh, shiny 8)
20130607 22:23:37< Espreon> Ivanovic: OK, sure.
20130607 22:25:41< LordBob_> Which reminds me...how come we're using http://www.wesnoth.org/units/trunk/mainline/en_US/Skeletal%20Dragon.html and not the bone dragon Zero designed on the previous page ?
20130607 22:30:56< fabi> LordBob_: Well, the old skeleton dragon is nicely animated.
20130607 22:31:27< zookeeper> s/nicely/crappily
20130607 22:32:28< LordBob_> is it ? I looked up in units/undead-skeletal but didn't find its frames
20130607 22:33:24< fabi> LordBob_: It is in data/core/images/units/monsters as well.
20130607 22:35:19< LordBob_> lol @the defend picture. Looks like a giant mole more than a dragon; though, so I'll agree with zookeeper
20130607 22:39:42< LordBob_> fabi: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vepnsx76t9y4js/desert-elves-rider-sketches.jpg possible rider mount sketches
20130607 22:41:04< zookeeper> don't forget giant lizards
20130607 22:41:15< zookeeper> those are neat though
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20130607 22:45:04< LordBob_> Do I detect sarcasm ? :p Anyway, anything and everything has been done again and again, including (probably) giant bunnies, so we might as well please ourselves
20130607 22:46:40< zookeeper> no, i think giant lizards would be as likely as any other aside from horses
20130607 22:47:26< LordBob_> True, they're another quite common desert-dwelling species
20130607 22:50:43< zookeeper> i'd imagine that elves typically ha
20130607 22:50:57< zookeeper> ve a better connection with mammals or other intelligent beasts
20130607 22:51:57< LordBob_> Hmmm. Maybe. Lizards are often reserved to dark elf stereotypes
20130607 22:52:32< LordBob_> Plus, we don't want the faction to become a zoo either
20130607 22:53:38< zookeeper> right
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20130607 23:37:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (Please read the dev-ml for the latest status!) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 194 bugs, 332 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
--- Log closed Sat Jun 08 00:00:34 2013