--- Log opened Sun Jun 09 00:00:22 2013
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20130609 00:05:07< shadowm> fabi, LordBob_ : As I said the other day, yes, ellipses use a linear palette starting from RGB #FF0000 and ending with #001FF00000. That's 255 shades of pure red.
20130609 00:05:18< shadowm> Flags use a similar palette, except that's it's green instead of red.
20130609 00:06:37< shadowm> The algorithm to apply the color range (red, blue, green, purple, etc., as defined by a minimum shade, a maximum shade, and an average shade) is exactly the same in all cases.
20130609 00:06:53< LordBob_> shadowm: thanks for the reminder; still, the magenta palette was more than enough for the tiny orbs.
20130609 00:07:44< shadowm> Yeah, the less shades needed the better I'd say, from the perspective of a person who does pixel art.
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20130609 00:18:22< shadowm> bumbadadabum: The problem with transparency and TC is when you blend pixels together on the surface that will be passed to the team coloring algo.
20130609 00:18:51< bumbadadabum> shadowm: Yeah, I confused it with something else
20130609 00:18:58< shadowm> If you blend some pixel whose color is from the magenta palette with something else (say, green), the result will most likely not be an item from the magenta palette.
20130609 00:19:28< shadowm> This can happen when overlaying images with image path functions without making sure the TC function is applied first.
20130609 00:20:13< shadowm> Or changing the colors altogether with ~CS() or ~TINT().
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20130609 00:25:27< LordBob_> Speaking of ~CS(), shadowm, would you have any idea why the result Vultraz obtains when he applies it to UI elements is different from what I get when I desaturate them with Photoshop ? ...Are they different transformations ?
20130609 00:26:31< shadowm> Possibly. I don't use Photoshop, but the GIMP provides me with three different methods for desaturating a layer.
20130609 00:26:50< shadowm> "Choose shade of gray based on: a) Lightness; b) Luminosity; c) Average"
20130609 00:27:39< shadowm> I don't know anything about color theory, but I suppose for a given RGB color (r, g, b), to desaturate it you need to make it so r = g = b.
20130609 00:28:07< shadowm> And when r = g = b is not the starting condition there are a few possibilities to decide the x value that they should become.
20130609 00:29:17< LordBob_> Hm... Yeah, this must be what's happening. I looked up a bit into color conversion maths... Can't say I understood all of it, but there are definitely different formulas that can be used
20130609 00:30:45< shadowm> The formula Wesnoth uses according to the C++ is x = (77r + 150g + 29b) / 256 .
20130609 00:31:03< shadowm> No idea why.
20130609 00:35:44< LordBob_> probably because it's the straightest formula : other methods probably require to convert the RGB value to HSB / HSV values
20130609 00:35:55< LordBob_> Anyway, thanks. 
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20130609 01:03:50< anonymissimus_> jamit: what a nice do-nothing code :P
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20130609 01:04:59< EliDupree> btw, is bad UMC code supposed to be able to segfault Wesnoth? That is to say, if I'm getting a segfault in some scenario I'm writing, should I report that as a Wesnoth bug?
20130609 01:05:48< shadowm> Yes, that's a Wesnoth bug. No UMC should be able to disrupt Wesnoth's execution.
20130609 01:06:09< EliDupree> Alright. Now if only I can make it *repeatable*...
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20130609 01:06:49< shadowm> Even if it doesn't happen all the time, the method to trigger it could be used by someone armed with valgrind and a preposterous amount of time.
20130609 01:07:09< shadowm> Since that kind of non-deterministic bug usually hints at memory corruption.
20130609 01:07:12< EliDupree> ah yeah
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20130609 01:21:07< EliDupree> well, the problem is that I was busy tweaking my code when it came up, and didn't think to save the version at the time. And now I can't make it happen again at all.
20130609 01:21:57< EliDupree> All I know is that I was working with some really complicated nested image path mods, some of which might have accidentally had fractional coordinates (like cropping at pixel 5.25)
20130609 01:25:21< shadowm> slice_rect.x = lexical_cast_default<Sint16, const std::string&>(slice_params[0]);
20130609 01:25:41< shadowm> Nah, that wouldn't cause a segmentation fault.
20130609 01:26:46< shadowm> Negative coordinates are assumed to be zero too.
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20130609 01:30:07< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 0e92c5 / changelog src/image_modifications.cpp: Fix incorrect image path function name in ~CROP() diagnostics http://git.io/iiUWRg
20130609 01:30:24< shadowm> ... But negative width or height blow everything up.
20130609 01:30:33< shadowm> Okay.
20130609 01:31:50< shadowm> EliDupree: Any chance that might be it?
20130609 01:31:56< shadowm> Or have been, in this case.
20130609 01:31:59< EliDupree> Could've been
20130609 01:32:15< EliDupree> I was procedurally generating coordinates so I have no idea whether they were consistent
20130609 01:34:22< EliDupree> Ooh, got the segfault again!
20130609 01:34:24< shadowm> This is actually a quite serious issue now that I think of it. Hm. :/
20130609 01:35:13< EliDupree> I've got a savefile just before it happens
20130609 01:36:53< irker585> wesnoth: Espreon wesnoth-old:master 612f71 / / (49 files in 26 dirs): Updated the Old English translation. http://git.io/djt04Q
20130609 01:40:58< EliDupree> submitted, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?20876
20130609 01:44:01< irker585> wesnoth: Espreon wesnoth-old:1.10 18c45c / / (22 files in 14 dirs): Updated the Old English translation. http://git.io/1UnKhA
20130609 01:44:36< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:1.10 ec5d96 / changelog src/image_modifications.cpp: Fix incorrect image path function name in ~CROP() diagnostics http://git.io/aui86g
20130609 01:45:30< EliDupree> odd that it also segfaults *before* it gets to most of the image mod stuff. It could be some thing unrelated.
20130609 01:47:01< shadowm> The third frame in the backtrace is in the ~CROP() implementation.
20130609 01:48:40< shadowm> Trying to crop 100,57,50,50 from a 160x200 surface.
20130609 01:49:01< shadowm> That... should work...
20130609 01:49:31< shadowm> Oh, this is part of a ~BLIT() path.
20130609 01:50:12< shadowm> "~BLIT(units/monsters/fire-dragon.png~CROP(100,57,50,50),5,5)~SCALE(18,18)"
20130609 01:50:52< shadowm> On attacks/blank-attack.png.
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20130609 01:54:04< shadowm> Okay, I think I'll need to look at this further with a cup of tea.
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20130609 02:12:06< irker585> wesnoth: Espreon wesnoth-old:master 7bfe81 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/ (animals.cfg goto.cfg swarm.cfg wolves.cfg): 'End scenario' -> 'End Scenario'. http://git.io/i4NElA
20130609 02:12:27< shadowm> Oh right.
20130609 02:12:36< shadowm> That attempt crashed before I could see the [message] menu.
20130609 02:13:18< shadowm> Another attempt with the same build doesn't crash at all.
20130609 02:20:24< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 54cc11 / / (14 files in 2 dirs): Moved a bunch of unused images to attic http://git.io/Cc3LTw
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20130609 02:48:55< irker585> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:1.10 3c35fb / changelog src/menu_events.cpp: Use the correct index for filter_textbox::delete_item(). http://git.io/gcmpTQ
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20130609 03:36:34< shadowm> Okay, there seems to be something wrong going on in the Lua bindings' implementation.
20130609 03:37:00< shadowm> Wait, that's not the bindings. That's the Lua library itself.
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20130609 03:39:07< shadowm> Everything is cool until I select the "cast a spell" menu item and then it quickly goes completely wrong: http://pastebin.com/NaPhB2Tk
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20130609 03:43:39< shadowm> I think I need an -O1 build to see if this a thing that normally happens when executing Lua code.
20130609 03:46:15< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 3d59e2 / data/core/images/themes/experimental-rightside.png: Removed old theme image previously used in now-removed expirimental theme http://git.io/m_kovQ
20130609 03:46:18< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 0ca3f3 / / (3 files in 2 dirs): Removed editor settings dialog. Custom TOD dialog has replaced it http://git.io/smY_sg
20130609 03:46:57< shadowm> Nah, it's normal.
20130609 03:47:38< shadowm> So I am guessing that it's the image path functions sequence that is resulting in some disastrous thing.
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20130609 04:00:59< shadowm> for(int y = 0; y < src_rect.h && (src_rect.y + y) < surf->h; ++y) {
20130609 04:01:26< shadowm> Okay, cut_surface() shouldn't blow up everything when the height is negative...
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20130609 04:02:23< shadowm> Oh, but create_compatible_surface() is called first.
20130609 04:02:38< shadowm> And that handles w == -1 and h == -1 specially, but not any other negative values.
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20130609 04:03:42< shadowm> And no idea what happens when calling SDL_CreateRGBSurface() with negative dimensions.
20130609 04:06:49< shadowm> But considering that an operation on the result is what triggers the segmentation fault I'd say SDL_CreateRGBSurface() simply results something that makes no sense.
20130609 04:07:05< shadowm> 1505            size_t rbpp = res->format->BytesPerPixel;
20130609 04:07:29< shadowm> And res is encapsulating, surprise surprise, a NULL pointer.
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20130609 04:14:34< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 7c8ee3 / changelog src/sdl_utils.cpp: Prevent unchecked memory access in cut_surface() http://git.io/asZAZQ
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20130609 04:20:49< shadowm> AI0867: You saw gabba's email to the devs ML, yes?
20130609 04:21:05< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:1.10 005786 / changelog src/sdl_utils.cpp: Prevent unchecked memory access in cut_surface() http://git.io/aU7WVw
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20130609 04:46:35< AI0867> shadowm: hours ago
20130609 04:46:59< shadowm> AI0867: Okay, I didn't see the reply so I assume you replied privately to him.
20130609 04:47:29< AI0867> he resent the mail outside of the mailinglist
20130609 04:47:33< AI0867> I replied to that
20130609 04:47:38< shadowm> OK.
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20130609 05:19:52< irker585> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master 4f2984 / src/ (CMakeLists.txt SConscript): Update CMakeLists.txt and SConscript. http://git.io/_4x6Zw
20130609 05:32:54< shadowm> vultraz: ^ That's a thing you were supposed to do.
20130609 05:34:42< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 613e6f / src/tests/gui/test_gui2.cpp: Remove references to gui2::teditor_settings http://git.io/Mg328A
20130609 05:34:51< shadowm> vultraz: ^ That is _also_ a thing you were supposed to do.
20130609 05:36:01< shadowm> There is nothing more annoying than stumbling upon a broken build system when I am investigating a serious bug.
20130609 05:37:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (Please read the dev-ml for the latest status!) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 195 bugs, 332 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130609 06:11:25< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master f9e5a4 / src/gui/widgets/settings.cpp: Updated wiki comment about editor settings dialog and fixed a typo http://git.io/-zOdAA
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20130609 07:15:48< irker585> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master a9270b / changelog: UI changelog entries for vultraz http://git.io/Ym1NtQ
20130609 07:21:30< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master e63d7a / RELEASE_NOTES: Release notes entry about ui overhaul http://git.io/7pJ7jw
20130609 07:21:33< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 0faf4c / changelog: Fixed typo http://git.io/TxwByw
20130609 07:32:45< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 7ac8ae / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Updated XCode projfile (removed editor_settings.*pp) http://git.io/HTV11g
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20130609 08:05:22< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master a66995 / src/statistics_dialog.cpp: Fixed path to gold coins image for statistics dialog http://git.io/N7ikVA
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20130609 08:16:15< irker585> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth-old:master 7d6731 / data/gui/default/window/lobby_main.cfg src/statistics_dialog.cpp: Fixed more paths to gold coins image http://git.io/F8ydEg
20130609 08:16:36< vultraz_laptop> Espreon: ^
20130609 08:17:49< Espreon> Yay.
20130609 08:17:51< Espreon> Thanks.
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20130609 11:37:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (Please read the dev-ml for the latest status!) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 195 bugs, 333 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20130609 12:24:51< bumbadadabum> vultraz: 20130609 12:11:53 error display: could not open image 'buttons/checkboxpressed.png'
20130609 12:27:30< vultraz_laptop> huh
20130609 12:27:37< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: what dialog?
20130609 12:27:46< bumbadadabum> No idea
20130609 12:27:54< bumbadadabum> but it popped up in my terminal
20130609 12:28:06< bumbadadabum> I did notice there were missing images in the statistics
20130609 12:28:40< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: latest HEAD?
20130609 12:28:50< bumbadadabum> I believe so
20130609 12:30:06< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: please make sure, since I thought I fixed those
20130609 12:31:29< fabi_> hi vultraz_laptop
20130609 12:31:34< vultraz_laptop> hey fabi_ 
20130609 12:32:23< fabi_> I have wired in new orbs from LordBob_ made.
20130609 12:32:48< fabi_> But I fear the green one isn't recognizable enough.
20130609 12:33:05< vultraz_laptop> bumbadadabum: There was something similar with me forgetting a - before "pressed", but I thought I fixed that too
20130609 12:33:53< bumbadadabum> vultraz_laptop: Yeah, I wasn't running the latest HEAD
20130609 12:34:03< bumbadadabum> oopsie
20130609 12:34:10< vultraz_laptop> mk, good
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20130609 12:38:04< vultraz_laptop> fabi_: could you wire in the item group images? I can't figure out how to myself
20130609 12:38:18< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: yes
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20130609 12:54:32< irker547> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 2dff19 / / (5 files in 3 dirs): New orb image wired in. http://git.io/udZKvA
20130609 12:54:32< irker547> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 1f94b4 / / (9 files in 2 dirs): Wired in the item group icons. http://git.io/j9vQPg
20130609 12:55:10< irker547> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master de64af / images/misc/ (orb-ally.png orb-moved.png orb-partmoved.png orb-tc.png orb-unmoved.png): Removed now unsused orb images. http://git.io/6vR3rQ
20130609 12:55:38< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: ^
20130609 12:59:20< vultraz_laptop> thanks :)
20130609 13:00:38< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: What do you think about the new orbs?
20130609 13:02:17< bumbadadabum> ccache isn't working again...
20130609 13:02:19< bumbadadabum> ugh
20130609 13:02:25< vultraz_laptop> lemme build and see how they look in-game
20130609 13:04:23< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: It is only a single magenta one.
20130609 13:06:36< vultraz_laptop> it get recolored yellow/red/green/blue in-game?
20130609 13:07:02< fabi_> yes, and black
20130609 13:07:37< fabi_> I introduced a black orb for the enemy because black is the color the minimap uses for enemies if you toggle the display mode.
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20130609 14:00:09< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: No luck with compiling?
20130609 14:09:28< vultraz> fabi_: sorry, I was busy with my addon
20130609 14:10:22< bumbadadabum> fabi_: It looks pretty good
20130609 14:10:53< fabi_> really?
20130609 14:11:04< fabi_> The green orb is quite invisible on grass land.
20130609 14:11:12< bumbadadabum> Yeah
20130609 14:11:21< bumbadadabum> I'm testing it on a desert background
20130609 14:11:37< fabi_> yeah, that should work fine.
20130609 14:11:51< fabi_> The green orb needs to be somewhat brighter.
20130609 14:12:12< fabi_> But I am using the team color system for it.
20130609 14:12:20< bumbadadabum> it looks a little bit weird with the hero and leader crown
20130609 14:13:18< vultraz_laptop> fabi_: I can see the green orb
20130609 14:13:51< fabi_> vultraz_laptop: Yes, but is it prominent enough?
20130609 14:14:17< vultraz_laptop> fabi_: unrelated, but it seems the Loyal option in the unit context menu doesn't work :/
20130609 14:14:25< bumbadadabum> fabi_: The enemy orb is a bit invisible in caves
20130609 14:14:28< vultraz_laptop> fabi_: yes, it seems prominent enough
20130609 14:14:43< fabi_> bumbadadabum: let me check
20130609 14:15:26< vultraz_laptop> fabi_: the enemy orb looks fine in caves
20130609 14:15:47< bumbadadabum> vultraz_laptop: To me it isn't visible enough
20130609 14:16:11< fabi_> bumbadadabum: I must agree with vultraz_laptop. The green orb on grass is more of a problem.
20130609 14:16:17< bumbadadabum> ok
20130609 14:17:17< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Well, we must address every user. If you don't get it, that is enough reason to change something. Especially in border cases, and both the green on grass and the black are those.
20130609 14:17:58< bumbadadabum> upping the contrast a little bit should fix all issues
20130609 14:18:04< AI0867> fabi_: then don't use 'green', but define a new palette named 'orb_green' or something
20130609 14:18:37< fabi_> AI0867: Yeah, I once messed with the color definitions. I had to learn that this isn't exactly my field of competence.
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20130609 14:22:13< bumbadadabum> fabi_: A little more contrast would be good
20130609 14:22:26< bumbadadabum> but nothing too big
20130609 14:22:38< bumbadadabum> I don't have any major problems seeing an orb
20130609 14:23:10< bumbadadabum> Things like black on chasm or green on grass are easily fixed with a little more contrast
20130609 14:23:19< bumbadadabum> they're still visible as-is
20130609 14:23:31< bumbadadabum> but they blend in with the background a little bit
20130609 14:23:54< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Maybe LordBob_ can do something by redoing the orb, avoiding the need to define new colors.
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20130609 16:18:08< irker547> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master 70e4b9 / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: cb project update http://git.io/ukCkgQ
20130609 16:18:10< irker547> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master e92e84 / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vc project update http://git.io/P3cvTQ
20130609 16:29:32< fabi_> Gambit, shadowm: I recently added a signature to my forum profile for the first time. But the signature still does not appear in my posts. Any idea what I could do wrong?
20130609 16:30:26-!- horon [~horon@nttkyo320146.tkyo.nt.ngn2.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20130609 16:31:06< fabi_> Gambit, shadowm: Okay, found it. "Attach my signature by default:". Now I must only learn how to add it manually.
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20130609 16:33:27< Alarantalara> Ivanovic: Sorry for the delay. I've uploaded and included the link to the OS X 1.11.4 release on the wiki.
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20130609 16:36:18< fabi_> hi Alarantalara, welcome back :-)
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20130609 17:28:12< LordBob_> fabi_: around ?
20130609 17:28:36< fabi_> hi LordBob_
20130609 17:29:03< fabi_> LordBob_: I have wired in the orbs.
20130609 17:29:18< LordBob_> Yes, I see that in the logs
20130609 17:29:48< fabi_> LordBob_: Ah cool, didn't expect you to read logs. :-)
20130609 17:30:12< LordBob_> Not systematically, but it happens. Regarding the green/black problem, I see three possible solutions:
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20130609 17:30:32< LordBob_> a) I modify the orb to give it a clear outline
20130609 17:31:06< LordBob_> b) we use/add a custom TC with a brighter shade of green 
20130609 17:31:52< LordBob_> c) we revert to the "jewel" type of orb, which has the benefit of its golden frame to detach it against most backgrounds
20130609 17:32:48< fabi_> LordBob_: Another problem is that the crowns/rings of leaders/heroes/loyal units are not locking that good anymore.
20130609 17:32:54< LordBob_> oh, and d), I fiddle with the magenta palette of the orb so that it is altogether brighter
20130609 17:33:28< fabi_> LordBob_: I guess it is because the new orb is round while the old is somewhat ellipsoid.
20130609 17:33:30< LordBob_> Well, then, let's revamp them too,
20130609 17:34:13< LordBob_> Hmm, yes. I had noticed that but picked round instead because it involved less akward play on transparency
20130609 17:36:29< fabi_> LordBob_: I guess I can't help you much on the decision. The problem is that I do not know how those color values work that define a team color.
20130609 17:37:02< fabi_> LordBob_: Thus I would need some help with b)
20130609 17:37:47< vultraz> oh hullo LordBob_ 
20130609 17:38:06< vultraz> just saw your potion icon ingame earlier, and it looks amazing :)
20130609 17:38:15< LordBob_> fabi: I know for sure that RCX lets me preview color switches, and also that it can use custom palettes for that purpose. Maybe I can tray and define a working color and extract the correct numbers for you
20130609 17:38:50< LordBob_> vultraz:  it is as much my potion icon as it is yours ;)
20130609 17:39:10< vultraz> heh
20130609 17:39:16< fabi_> LordBob_: The old orb always remembered my to a jewel.
20130609 17:39:27< vultraz> do you have any other graphics tasks for me do?
20130609 17:39:41< vultraz> I'm pretty sure I've optimized everything as far as it can be
20130609 17:39:42< bumbadadabum> fabi_: The old orb reminded me of 2004
20130609 17:39:52< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Yes, that as well :-)
20130609 17:39:52< bumbadadabum> thanks for destroying my nostalgia
20130609 17:39:59< fabi_> oh sorry
20130609 17:40:09< bumbadadabum> meh, I don't mind
20130609 17:40:13< LordBob_> On an unrelated subject, do you guys have any knowledge about animation macros ? 
20130609 17:40:15< fabi_> The old villages had also been Wesnoth's app icon. 
20130609 17:40:15< bumbadadabum> it had to change sometime
20130609 17:40:31< fabi_> I miss them :-(
20130609 17:40:33< bumbadadabum> did it?
20130609 17:40:44< bumbadadabum> I only remember the Konrad and Delfador app icons
20130609 17:41:14< vultraz> LordBob_: what about them?
20130609 17:41:27< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: I do
20130609 17:41:31< LordBob_> The reason I'm asking: once I'll have made some progress on the mudcrawler anim, I'll end with a series of still frames ans no mean to test them ingame
20130609 17:41:45< bumbadadabum> you don't need to use the macros
20130609 17:42:10< bumbadadabum> if you have trunk, the animation syntax is pretty easy
20130609 17:42:14< LordBob_> The "defend" anim will be two frames, so I can just replace the current ones ; but the other anims are longer than the existing
20130609 17:42:38< vultraz> LordBob_: listen to bumbadadabum, he's had a lot of experience with this
20130609 17:42:41< fabi_> LordBob_: I see a little problem with the mudcrawler. The artwork is fine and your animations already look amazing. But the baby mudcrawler is really tiny, and the new one looks like a level3 monster.
20130609 17:42:51< LordBob_> Still, I might appreciate a quick walkthrough when the time comes ;)
20130609 17:42:52< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: How many frames is it going to be?
20130609 17:43:02< fabi_> LordBob_: Could you consider to make something in between, please?
20130609 17:43:12< bumbadadabum> fabi_: It's meant to be a Giant mudcrawler
20130609 17:43:16< vultraz> fabi_: I have a suggestion: can we make all the monsters lvl3?
20130609 17:43:28< bumbadadabum> I think TSI decided on the baseframe in 2010
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20130609 17:43:34< vultraz> giant scorpion, giant mudcrawler, giant spider
20130609 17:43:45< vultraz> those could be lvl2
20130609 17:43:53< vultraz> and any smaller variations could be lower levels
20130609 17:43:54< vultraz> er
20130609 17:43:56< vultraz> lvl3*
20130609 17:44:01< LordBob_> bumbadadabum: 6 (ranged) and 10 (melee), not counting the baseframe
20130609 17:44:03< fabi_> vultraz: Well, if we have enough artwork, I wouldn't mind.
20130609 17:44:34< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: on which frame is the attack going to hit?
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20130609 17:45:20< LordBob_> fabi_: after spending the better half of a day blocking individual frames, I would rather not modify each and every one of them to adjust size, sorry :s 
20130609 17:45:54< fabi_> LordBob_: No, the new one is fine as the level3. My question is if you would make another lvl2 one, please.
20130609 17:46:02< LordBob_> bumbadadabum: frame 6 for melee, frame 4 for ranged
20130609 17:46:09< bumbadadabum> fabi_: There is no level 2 or 3
20130609 17:46:36< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Ah they are lvl0 and 1?
20130609 17:46:46< fabi_> The more the need to have a smaller version.
20130609 17:47:02< bumbadadabum> fabi_: I don't think the size is a problem
20130609 17:47:06< fabi_> The new huge one can be the lvl2 then.
20130609 17:47:08< LordBob_> fabi_: does size matter so much ? Isn't it the stats that tell the difference, instead ?
20130609 17:47:23< bumbadadabum> if Jetrel and TSI didn't find it a problem, then why complain now?
20130609 17:47:48< fabi_> LordBob_: Well, no. The artwork shall give you the impression of the level at once, that is one of our rules.
20130609 17:48:13< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: You should ask Jetrel about it
20130609 17:48:13< vultraz> fabi_: that is why I think, since the new scorpion and midcralwer are so huge, they should be lvl3
20130609 17:48:17< LordBob_> fabi_: I was initially doing these anims as quick placeholders just so we we can ditch the old mudcrawler, so I would rather not get sidetracked into a whole new project. And I second bumbadadabum 's latest
20130609 17:48:36< fabi_> vultraz: Yes, I answered to your post in the forum :-)
20130609 17:49:23< fabi_> LordBob_: I guess they both weren't aware that we talk about a level one unit in case of the giant mudcrawler.
20130609 17:49:48< LordBob_> fabi_, vultraz:  guys, I would rather zero made one complete set of anims and we use it whatever its size, rather than we discourage him by asking triple the work before he's even halfway through
20130609 17:50:20< LordBob_> fabi_: unless its stats chenged since then, I doubt it
20130609 17:50:26< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: http://pastebin.com/RXAxgWLj
20130609 17:50:30< bumbadadabum> for the melee attack
20130609 17:51:07< vultraz> LordBob_: There is a case of having no lvl2 or 1 units, such as the giant spider. The scorp could become a plain lvl3 unit.
20130609 17:51:17< fabi_> LordBob_: I wouldn't count that jetrel and tsi know every Wesnoth unit by heart. Especially if it is something very exotic like the mudcrawler.
20130609 17:52:07< fabi_> vultraz: Well, that is not possible. It would break UMC and mainline campaign balance.
20130609 17:52:24< vultraz> fabi_: is the scorp used in mainline?
20130609 17:52:35< fabi_> vultraz: Under the burning suns
20130609 17:52:43< vultraz> oh, yeah
20130609 17:52:55< vultraz> but aren't we going to revamp that?
20130609 17:53:09< LordBob_> fabi_: maybe not, but let's at least grant them that if they worked on a unit, they would have taken a glance at its profile
20130609 17:53:30< fabi_> vultraz: I wouldn't count on that. We do a UMC revamp, I wouldn't bet that it is ever accepted into mainline.
20130609 17:53:54< bumbadadabum> fabi_, vultraz: I think it's best to wait on Jetrel's opinion about this
20130609 17:53:56< fabi_> LordBob_: Then why did they break our rule?
20130609 17:53:57< vultraz> fabi_: really? so we're going to have a umc version of an mainline campaign?
20130609 17:54:40< fabi_> vultraz: Yes, that is why I call the campaign TtBS. Tribute to Burning Suns
20130609 17:55:14< vultraz> I still think we should be working on the mainline version
20130609 17:56:12< fabi_> vultraz: Then better volunteer to work on Eftenborn with Espreon. This one is more likely to replace the current mainline UtBS.
20130609 17:56:31< bumbadadabum> fabi_: We're already working on a revamp of Eftboren
20130609 17:56:49< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: http://pastebin.com/YqdCVLzQ
20130609 17:56:58< bumbadadabum> this should be all the animation wml for the giant mudcrawler
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20130609 17:57:17< LordBob_> bumbadadabum: btw, thanks for the attack syntax. Does it allow to define different durations for individual frames ? If, say, I want to pause the movement when the attack is fully charged, right before he begins the strike
20130609 17:57:26< fabi_> vultraz: I do want to have every freedom when redoing the campaign, that is not possible if we target for mainline. Half of the feature I want would be rejected.
20130609 17:57:34< bumbadadabum> that's a little harder
20130609 17:57:47< vultraz> fabi_: why? anything can go into mainline with enough leverage
20130609 17:58:01< vultraz> we write the rules about mainline content, they can re written
20130609 17:58:23< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: You can use brackets after the : with the timing
20130609 17:58:42< fabi_> bumbadadabum: That are good news, Competition is good for business.
20130609 17:58:49< bumbadadabum> for example :[100,100,75,75] results in the first 2 taking 100 and the second 2 taking 75
20130609 17:59:30< fabi_> vultraz: That doesn't match my experience. I have been told very clearly that my ideas don't fit into mainline by the usual suspects. 
20130609 17:59:52< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: s if you want frame 5 to take twice as long, it's
20130609 17:59:53< vultraz> which ideas are questionable?
20130609 18:00:09< bumbadadabum> :[75*4,150,75*5]
20130609 18:00:13< LordBob_> bumbadadabum: ok. I will probably have some more questions when I get to it, but I understand the basics
20130609 18:00:21< fabi_> vultraz: Nearly everything was argued about by someone.
20130609 18:01:09< vultraz> I still think you should just stick it in mainline, whether they like it or not
20130609 18:01:14< fabi_> vultraz: To the point that UtBS is fine as it is and I shouldn't dare to change anything. Another of our many cool rules: Don't repair what isn't broken.
20130609 18:01:31< vultraz> as jetrel has said, trying to please everyone ultimately results in a failure
20130609 18:01:32< bumbadadabum> well, IMO the desert elves need a little revamp
20130609 18:01:42< fabi_> vultraz: Indeed, Jetrel is very right there.
20130609 18:01:51< fabi_> bumbadadabum: They do.
20130609 18:03:35< vultraz> fabi_: that could also have applied to the editor. It wasn't broken before, but now look, it's much better :)
20130609 18:03:53< fabi_> vultraz: Do you know how hard I had to fight for the new editor features?
20130609 18:04:07< fabi_> vultraz: I can point you to a huge flamewar on the mailing list if you like.
20130609 18:04:34< fabi_> vultraz: And the only reason I can do them is the fact that Dave himself have me the green light on it.
20130609 18:04:43< vultraz> That's not your fault. More like the fault of people who don't want things to change
20130609 18:05:45< LordBob_> fabi_: let us not be disheartened by future or past disagreements. I too think we should aimed for a content that is worthy of mainline
20130609 18:06:08< vultraz> And personally, I think wesnoth needs to move forward
20130609 18:06:23< fabi_> LordBob_: Agreed.
20130609 18:06:27< vultraz> If a radical new version of UtBS enters mainline, what, exactly, is so bad about that
20130609 18:06:36< vultraz> The fact that it's new and radical?
20130609 18:06:41< fabi_> LordBob_: But we could aim for mainline quality but avoid mainline simplicity.
20130609 18:07:11< bumbadadabum> Maybe I should continue what Coffee and I started
20130609 18:07:16< bumbadadabum> before he went MIA
20130609 18:07:18< LordBob_> fabi_: few, if any, camapigns were ever selected right from the start anyway, so let's develop something that has a good story and is fun to play ; if and when it will have proved popular with the player base, mainline won't be so difficult
20130609 18:07:43< fabi_> vultraz: One of our biggest problems is that we have that huge FPI list that is valued like moses got it hammered it stone from god himself.
20130609 18:07:55< fabi_> LordBob_: Indeed.
20130609 18:08:03< vultraz> fabi_: FPI?
20130609 18:08:19< fabi_> vultraz: Frequently Proposed Ideas that we do not like to have in Wesnoth.
20130609 18:08:20< bumbadadabum> vultraz: Have you ever read the Ideas forum?
20130609 18:08:39< vultraz> bumbadadabum: not often
20130609 18:08:43< fabi_> vultraz: You should have read it before doing any post in the ideas forum.
20130609 18:09:51< fabi_> LordBob_: The only campaign that was developed for mainline is HttT.
20130609 18:10:05< bumbadadabum> fabi_: HttT WAS mainline
20130609 18:10:13< LordBob_> fabi_: if the heart of the matter is that our content contradicts current mainline UtBS, then let's name it Under the Bloody Cold Moons and make what we want of it
20130609 18:11:05< fabi_> LordBob_: Well, is "Tribute to Burning Suns" short TtBS not a good name?
20130609 18:11:16< vultraz> fabi_: ok, so what about it. A lot of those can and are done in UMC already
20130609 18:11:41< fabi_> vultraz: The rating system on the addon server?
20130609 18:11:53< fabi_> vultraz: Proper support for ranged weapons.
20130609 18:12:12< fabi_> vultraz: Most if the UMC solutions are just dirty hacks.
20130609 18:12:27< fabi_> vultraz: I have never seen a good Inventory system for example.
20130609 18:12:28< vultraz> Yeah, well, I don't agree on the denial of some of them
20130609 18:13:18< vultraz> fabi_: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95558676/current_inventory.png
20130609 18:13:26< fabi_> LordBob_: But I must say, "Under the Bloody Cold Moons" is a interesting name...
20130609 18:13:44< fabi_> vultraz: Yeah, that is exactly what I meant with hack.
20130609 18:13:57< bumbadadabum> fabi_: All the people who say a good inventory system isn't possible just aren't good enough to make one
20130609 18:14:09< vultraz> well, it's a better hack than something like what's in loti
20130609 18:14:19< fabi_> loti?
20130609 18:14:26< bumbadadabum> don't even look at it pls
20130609 18:14:38< vultraz> crap umc campaign
20130609 18:15:00< bumbadadabum> the people who complain about the GUI are usually the ones who don't get further than using [object[
20130609 18:15:02< bumbadadabum> *]
20130609 18:15:16< vultraz> I spent a lot of time getting that inventory to work
20130609 18:15:28< vultraz> and I still haven't see any other inventory that looks as good
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20130609 18:15:33< LordBob_> fabi_: in a way, TttBS it isn't so good a name, because it's a call to conflict for anyone remotely invested in UtBS: we're still walking on their turf
20130609 18:15:53< fabi_> vultraz: Yeah, I believe that. And I guess you did well for the limited possibilities we currently offer.
20130609 18:16:02< vultraz> LordBob_: what about Under the Frigid Moon?
20130609 18:16:19< fabi_> lol
20130609 18:16:27< LordBob_> fabi_; besides, we should not want to make an homage to the greatness of UtBS; this will limit our ideas, eventually. We should aim to make something so good that people will regret not making it themselves, instead ;)
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20130609 18:17:35< vultraz> fabi_: a general problem with wesnoth is even within the game itself, stuff feels hacked together. Take the entire GUI systems, for example. We're using two different ones, and don't even have proper support for TABS, even/
20130609 18:18:16< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Regarding the gui. Nearly every strategic game out there nowadays uses the left mouse button to select and the right mouse button to perform an action
20130609 18:18:17< fabi_> .
20130609 18:18:40< LordBob_> vultraz: it pretty much speaks of who we are: a group of individuals with different views and objectives hacked together for the need of the game
20130609 18:18:48< fabi_> bumbadadabum: We do everything with the left mouse button which leads to miss clicks quite often.
20130609 18:19:38< bumbadadabum> fabi_: I actually like that
20130609 18:19:43-!- Gambit [~gambit@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130609 18:19:48< bumbadadabum> made it a lot easier to play on an apple trackpad
20130609 18:20:00< vultraz> LordBob_: pretty much. Now, take Anura/frogatto. It's worked on my some of the same people as wesnoth, but it's much more solid. If I had my way, we'd all be working on rewriting wesnoth on top of the Anura engine
20130609 18:20:01< fabi_> vultraz, LordBob_: Well, that wasn't the case in the old days when Dave still was active as the project leader. Nowadays we lack a strong leadership.
20130609 18:21:42< LordBob_> vultraz: Frogatto was created by a much smaller team, which helps tremendously in such matters. But yes, I would gladly work on a wesnoth 2.0 someday. 
20130609 18:21:44< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Yes, then the UI should allow you to choice what works on your trackpad best, and me what works with my mouse best.
20130609 18:21:51< vultraz> fabi_: yup... there are what, a dozen active devs, all who want different things
20130609 18:22:16< bumbadadabum> fabi_: The problem is people who can implement the choices
20130609 18:22:29< bumbadadabum> the dev team is very small
20130609 18:22:44< fabi_> bumbadadabum: I would do it, but I am not allowed to: Because "Options are bad".
20130609 18:22:55< bumbadadabum> I have nothing against option
20130609 18:23:00< bumbadadabum> *options
20130609 18:23:03< vultraz> fabi_: we need someone to come in and say OPTIONS ARE GOOD
20130609 18:23:06< fabi_> bumbadadabum: In fact, I already have it working. It was not much work.
20130609 18:23:22< bumbadadabum> possibilities are good
20130609 18:23:24< fabi_> vultraz, bumbadadabum, LordBob_: We need more fresh blood and open minded developers.
20130609 18:23:45< bumbadadabum> fabi_: Don't forget the 'who stick around' part
20130609 18:23:53< vultraz> fabi_: as it is, if wesnoth continues like this, it will gradually die. It seems like we have a very small dev team who can't agree on anything, and more and more gradually leave, and no one replaces
20130609 18:24:24< LordBob_> fabi_: that's easier said than done. And we also need the 'who work well together' part
20130609 18:24:43< vultraz> LordBob_: if you want all three, you basically have frogatto :P
20130609 18:24:43< LordBob_> fabi_: what if this fresh blodd has as many ideas as you havebut the exact opposite :p
20130609 18:25:08< vultraz> LordBob_: they get stuff done at an amazing rate
20130609 18:25:18< bumbadadabum> and there needs to be a leader
20130609 18:25:26< vultraz> we need a new Dave
20130609 18:25:27< bumbadadabum> even though it's less democratic
20130609 18:25:30< bumbadadabum> it gets shit done
20130609 18:25:51< fabi_> yes
20130609 18:26:02< vultraz> yup. Case in point, shadowm and after the storm and invasion from the unknown
20130609 18:26:26< bumbadadabum> But who would be that new dave?
20130609 18:26:32< LordBob_> What's the backstory behind those addons, btw ?
20130609 18:26:40< bumbadadabum> LordBob_: There's a lot of it
20130609 18:26:44< vultraz> LordBob_: a lottt of it
20130609 18:27:02 * zookeeper would rather see the new wild ideas directed to a new game rather than trying to do everything in/for/with wesnoth
20130609 18:27:10< vultraz> LordBob_: come to ##vshadowm we'll explain
20130609 18:27:14< vultraz> er
20130609 18:27:16< vultraz> ##shadowm
20130609 18:27:36< vultraz> zookeeper: but what would this new game be?
20130609 18:27:45< bumbadadabum> We can't let wesnoth die like this
20130609 18:28:06< vultraz> bumbadadabum: maybe there is something in my idea of writing a wesnoth clone in Anura....
20130609 18:28:23< zookeeper> vultraz, what do you mean?
20130609 18:28:30< zookeeper> everyone has a hundred ideas, pick one.
20130609 18:29:40< vultraz> zookeeper: and what will we end up with? Say I actually manage to create a clone of wesnoth in anura with all the features that I want. And everyone else does the same. We end up with a hundred different games and wesnoth dies
20130609 18:30:49< fabi_> zookeeper: Yes, and I hope that people who pley for stagnation will be the minority in the future.
20130609 18:31:08< fabi_> zookeeper: They already are. It's just that they cry the loudest.
20130609 18:31:47< flix> mattsc: Hello!
20130609 18:32:39< mattsc> flix: hi
20130609 18:33:35< flix> mattsc: I tested pl_koleks kill-unit patch. It looks good for me.
20130609 18:34:03< flix> mattsc: Do you have any special cases in mind under which this patch need to be testted?
20130609 18:34:26< fabi_> vultraz: The problem with the FPI list: It mostly consists of items that were voted against in another time.
20130609 18:34:27< mattsc> flix: no - as long as it's only available in debug mode, I think it's good
20130609 18:35:11< fabi_> vultraz: I give you an example: The ranged weapon support was already present in older versions of Wesnoth. It was removed because the AI couldn't cope with it at that time.
20130609 18:35:26< fabi_> vultraz: Nowadays the AI is more flexible and the feature could return.
20130609 18:35:35< vultraz> fabi_: then why won't it?
20130609 18:35:53< fabi_> vultraz: I have already talked to Dave who said that he is fine with bringing the feature back today.
20130609 18:36:14< fabi_> vultraz: Thus in case of ranged weapons there is hope.
20130609 18:38:21< flix> mattsc: I want to define the default hotkey for this to be "Shift+k". This should be fine, right? (pl_kolek implemented the hotkey functionality but forgot to define a default hotkey)
20130609 18:38:56< fabi_> vultraz: The whole "Wesnoth does not need any more features/changes" was established before the 1.0 release to get the thing out in time. Afterwards the original developers planned plenty of new stuff that should go in Wesnoth 2.0.
20130609 18:39:14< mattsc> flix: makes sense to me (as long as that hotkey isn't already in use)
20130609 18:39:21< fabi_> vultraz: But the inital developers have mostly moved on to other project since then and we stick with the paradigma forever.
20130609 18:42:32< flix> mattsc: okay. I think I just found a bug. Could you try to reproduce it? When I try to define a new hotkey-combination in preferences with "shift" in it, instead of assigning "shift + k" it will assign "K". And the hotkey won't work.
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20130609 18:46:26< mattsc> flix: yes, same here
20130609 18:47:07< mattsc> flix: unfortunately, I have to run off now.  I'll be back in about 2 hours.  I'll stay logged in though and check what happened when I got back.
20130609 18:47:20< vultraz> fabi_: that needs to change
20130609 18:47:28< flix> mattsc:okay :)
20130609 18:49:30< fabi_> vultraz: One of the feature requests in my list, it is from zookeeper, could be really important to the future of Wesnoth. https://gna.org/bugs/?8832
20130609 18:51:57< vultraz> fabi_: that sounds a lot like the mp mods thing we have now
20130609 18:52:28< fabi_> vultraz: This one gives you much more possibilities.
20130609 18:53:43< LordBob_> fabi_, vultraz : you know, I have been thinking of something similar for the new UI. Artwork is here and there, which means anyone wanting to make their own UI them in the furture will spend quite some time hunting for missing artwork and introducing new file names etc. 
20130609 18:54:27< LordBob_> in an ideal world, every UI related artwork would be grouped in a single directory with generic fine names
20130609 18:54:51< LordBob_> *file names
20130609 18:55:19< fabi_> LordBob_: Indeed. And with subdirectories for each theme maybe.
20130609 18:55:46< LordBob_> Absolutely. Bored of the "classic" theme ? You clone the directory, adapt the artwork, pick its name in the list and BAM, there ou are
20130609 18:56:09< fabi_> LordBob_: But themes are options and options are bad.
20130609 18:56:19< fabi_> LordBob_: Not my idea by the way.
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20130609 19:01:51< LordBob_> fabi: Hmmm... We can't at the same time be an open-source, UMC-firendly program and completely discourage optional content and new ideas.
20130609 19:02:22< mattsc> flix: just tried one more thing.  If I assign shift-k, then quit Wesnoth and restart again, it does work (but does show up as 'K').  Not sure if it's supposed to be that way.
20130609 19:02:30< fabi_> LordBob_: Well, maybe UMC themes are possible. I must admit, I do not know yet.
20130609 19:02:31< mattsc> flix: now I'm really off :)
20130609 19:04:16< fabi_> LordBob_: Well, the point is: The default era is quite good balanced and stable. Doing anything on the gameplay regarding the MP game with default era is not a good idea. Still I don't get why that should hamper every other development.
20130609 19:04:27< flix> mattsc: okay, I will not dig into this. (Maybe you know the right person to tell about this? Or is it worth a bug report?) I will just assign shift+k to be the default for killing things ;)
20130609 19:06:04< fabi_> LordBob_: On the other hand, the improving of the AI like mattsc and flix are doing quite successful now is bringing every SP Campaign (and some MP stuff) out of balance. But in this case everyone seems to be fine.
20130609 19:06:16< LordBob_> fabi_: by era, you mean the collection of faction/races, or does it engulf more than this (game mechanics, ...
20130609 19:06:29< fabi_> LordBob_: Also the game mechanics.
20130609 19:07:00< fabi_> LordBob_: Because changing the game mechanics would cause the need to re-balance the default era.
20130609 19:07:12< LordBob_> fabi_: is it ? It makes opposition more challenging, but doesn't change the unit themselves, does it ?
20130609 19:08:25< fabi_> LordBob_: No, the ai work does not change the units. Current AI is not bad. There are many commercial games out there which do worse on the ai.
20130609 19:08:59< fabi_> LordBob_: Still current SP campaigns count on the fact that the ai is throwing its troops mindlessly against the player.
20130609 19:09:39< fabi_> LordBob_: If the ai would learn how to defend properly that would be insane, since usually the AI's incompetence is balanced by a massive gold pile.
20130609 19:09:58< LordBob_> fabi_: I'm under the impression that a better AI means more fun when playing SP campaigns. I don't see any reason why anyone would frown upon this. Rather, we should endeavour to improve campaigns, many of which seem to have boring objectives such as 'kill every enemy' anyway
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20130609 19:11:10< fabi_> LordBob_: Yeah, I tried to introduce some unusual game mechanics in my campaigns. LoW and DM. There are scenarios in there with different objectives. 
20130609 19:12:29< vultraz> LordBob_: yeah, that seems to be the default wesnoth objective. KILL EVERYONE
20130609 19:12:41< vultraz> and try as umc authors might...it's kinda hard to come up with much different
20130609 19:13:21< fabi_> vultraz, LordBob_: Well, the default objective is: Kill every enemies leader.
20130609 19:13:33< vultraz> Yeah
20130609 19:13:46< vultraz> but it'd be nice to say, have a fun way to do that...
20130609 19:13:54< fabi_> vultraz: There is a KILL Everyone scenairo in LoW by the way.
20130609 19:14:02< bumbadadabum> I'm trying to come up with creative ways to make the player kill the enemy leaders
20130609 19:14:03< vultraz> Basically every wesnoth unit functions the same way
20130609 19:14:07< vultraz> different stats
20130609 19:14:26< vultraz> but, well. they all just advance n hexes and attack
20130609 19:14:37< vultraz> no fancy attack combos, no jumping over people, no ranged attacks
20130609 19:14:49< bumbadadabum> dude, that's the game
20130609 19:14:58< vultraz> and if we suggested any of that, we'd meet a wall opposition
20130609 19:15:17< bumbadadabum> it's like saying:
20130609 19:15:36< bumbadadabum> "Mario is so lame, you can't even double jump"
20130609 19:15:55< bumbadadabum> "Minecraft is lame, you only have 1 attacking method"
20130609 19:16:07< LordBob_> vultraz: this much we must accept as part of the core package. 
20130609 19:16:15< Jetrel_new> bumbadadabum:  well, yes, that's why minecraft is a terrible combat game.
20130609 19:16:20< fabi_> bumbadadabum: But a customizable mario like clone could easily offer the double jump possibility for UMC.
20130609 19:16:32< bumbadadabum> Jetrel_new: Actually, it isn't
20130609 19:16:38< bumbadadabum> I really like minecraft PvP
20130609 19:16:42< Jetrel_new> bumbadadabum:  it's where you have the options that it excels - mining, and building
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20130609 19:16:56< vultraz> bumbadadabum: we are a combat game, and our combat is lame :P
20130609 19:17:05< bumbadadabum> no
20130609 19:17:19< vultraz> tell me again how you enjoyed waiting 176 units move
20130609 19:17:23< vultraz> watching*
20130609 19:17:30< bumbadadabum> it's not made for 176 units
20130609 19:17:35< vultraz> and moving each of your 80 lvl4 units
20130609 19:17:49< bumbadadabum> I enjoyed moving my 15 units
20130609 19:18:00< bumbadadabum> vultraz: compare it to chess
20130609 19:18:03< vultraz> even more can be fine
20130609 19:18:12< vultraz> AtS's last scenario, for example
20130609 19:18:22< vultraz> was great, even with the ton of units
20130609 19:18:30< bumbadadabum> tell me how much you enjoy having a 50x50 chess board
20130609 19:18:34< bumbadadabum> the game isn't made for it
20130609 19:18:38< vultraz> never tried
20130609 19:19:50< vultraz> and honestly, if we can't even agree on simple stuff like whether FPI options are useful or not, how will the project every go anywhere
20130609 19:20:04 * lipkab rolls eyes
20130609 19:20:31< bumbadadabum> just... accept wesnoth for what it is
20130609 19:20:46 * lipkab agrees
20130609 19:20:56< vultraz> I'm not saying that I don't, I'm saying that we need to be more open to new ideas.
20130609 19:21:12< fabi_> vultraz: Usually when projects stagnate they just get forked and in most cases the old project dies. Have a look at the xfree86 / xorg history.
20130609 19:22:12< fabi_> vultraz: The xfree86 people had the same attitude like we have: Everything is fine like it is don't touch anything.
20130609 19:23:02< vultraz> and what happened to them?
20130609 19:23:29< fabi_> vultraz: Well, some poeple forked the project, many developers joined the new xorg.
20130609 19:23:51< fabi_> vultraz: The converstavie ones stayed with xfree86.
20130609 19:24:15< fabi_> vultraz: Nearly every linux distribution and other unix vendors switched to xorg in a short time period.
20130609 19:24:25< vultraz> are you saying someone will eventually fork wesnoth and convert devs to it? :P
20130609 19:25:04< fabi_> maybe
20130609 19:25:27< lipkab> fabi_: There's quite a difference between xfree86 and Wesnoth.
20130609 19:25:39< fabi_> The problem is: No one needs Wesnoth. A better X Window System was needed by unix vendors.
20130609 19:25:46< lipkab> xfree86 is "pure" software whereas Wesnoth is a game.
20130609 19:25:55< fabi_> Yes
20130609 19:26:04< fabi_> That was what I tried to say
20130609 19:26:21< lipkab> No one ever denied that there's a lot of deficiencies in Wesnoth as a program.
20130609 19:26:47< lipkab> The argument is whether it is finished as a GAME or not.
20130609 19:26:58< lipkab> There's a huge difference.
20130609 19:27:32< fabi_> Games need to go with the time like every other software.
20130609 19:27:49< fabi_> If you do not react to new circumstances you fail.
20130609 19:28:23< fabi_> Like we do with the addon server right now. The old no competition thing was fine when there were only a few dozen addons. But Wesnoth growed.
20130609 19:29:30< fabi_> And after the years we have 500+ addons. Not reacting to the different situation is a failure.
20130609 19:30:33< jamit> Was that "If you do not react to new circumstances you fail" or "If you do not react to new circumstances as fabi wants you to react, you fail"? :P
20130609 19:30:53< lipkab> Oh hey jamit.
20130609 19:30:57< jamit> (Meaning: there could be other ways to react.)
20130609 19:31:09< fabi_> jamit: Sure, I am open to hear them.
20130609 19:34:26< zookeeper> you're mostly complaining about people dissing new ideas, but then you give an example that everyone agrees should be done (improving the add-on interface)
20130609 19:36:19< zookeeper> everyone agrees that there's a hundred things in wesnoth that should be improved, but your ideas are rarely obvious improvements but rather additions or changes.
20130609 19:36:34< zookeeper> some might be improvements, some might not be.
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20130609 19:38:38< fabi_> zookeeper: My example is not about improving the UI. It is about denying a rating system.
20130609 19:39:24< zookeeper> i don't recall people being against a rating system, as long as it can't easily be abused
20130609 19:39:29< fabi_> Which is a FPI.
20130609 19:40:07 * zookeeper shrugs
20130609 19:40:11< fabi_> It is a FPI and every call for it on the forum gets shut down with the hint that it is a FPI and we do not want a rating system because it could cause competition.
20130609 19:40:12< zookeeper> maybe it shouldn't be, then
20130609 19:40:17< fabi_> yeh
20130609 19:40:18< fabi_> yeah
20130609 19:40:20< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: I think the current review thing is fine
20130609 19:44:05< zookeeper> i bet no one would try to veto the kind of rating system mentioned recently where every forum regular (and upwards) would be able to rate add-ons. someone might grumble at it, but nothing dramatic.
20130609 19:44:47< bumbadadabum> Or have a "rating crew"
20130609 19:44:52< bumbadadabum> an 
20130609 19:44:58< bumbadadabum> 'add-on rater' rank
20130609 19:45:05< Espreon> Eh...
20130609 19:45:09< Espreon> ... I see problems with that.
20130609 19:45:25< Espreon> Then some might say that only a few elite members can rate and express their opionions or whatever.
20130609 19:45:28< Espreon> IDKLOL
20130609 19:45:54< bumbadadabum> or do the "Hey mr. rater, you're a VEEERYYY nice guy now give me a good rating"
20130609 19:47:22< zookeeper> yeah they might, and we wouldn't need to care. just like we don't need to care if someone doesn't like randomness.
20130609 19:47:22< fabi_> We have many users and just talking a bunch of them into rating your addon won't make any difference.
20130609 19:47:54< fabi_> If you manipulate the rating of an addon and people start to download it and see that it is not that good, they will just rate it down again.
20130609 19:48:05< zookeeper> the point of a rating system would expressly be to help non-community members to find good add-ons, not to satisfy anyone's ego
20130609 19:48:23< zookeeper> thus it doesn't matter if it's elitist or even fair or whatever
20130609 19:48:25< fabi_> zookeeper: Yes, I completely agree.
20130609 19:48:50< fabi_> zookeeper: But I think letting every forum member rate and not only the regulars would be fine enough.
20130609 19:49:04< lipkab> I think it would be much more of a problem that forums regulars and people upwards don't actually play Wesnoth.
20130609 19:49:05< bumbadadabum> fabi_: The problem with that is that the rating will have no meaning
20130609 19:49:18< bumbadadabum> because every idiot with a forum account can vote
20130609 19:49:26< vultraz> I think we need a leader
20130609 19:49:30< vultraz> In any case
20130609 19:49:51< fabi_> lipkab: Agreed.
20130609 19:50:36< bumbadadabum> That's why I think a rating crew is good
20130609 19:50:50< bumbadadabum> people who are chosen for their experience and knowledge
20130609 19:52:40< fabi_> bumbadadabum: So you think that most Wesnoth players are idiots who need to be toled which kind of addon has to please them?
20130609 19:52:49< fabi_> s/toled/told
20130609 19:52:55< bumbadadabum> No
20130609 19:53:19< bumbadadabum> but there are some people whose opinion would not be a thought-out one
20130609 19:53:27< fabi_> So some idiots who rate addons will spoil the day?
20130609 19:54:02< bumbadadabum> Actually, the review system is flawed in the same way
20130609 19:54:12< bumbadadabum> fanboys can write a review
20130609 19:54:22< fabi_> Again, if idiots (if you like to stick with the term) vote a bad addon in high ranks, it will get more downloads and thus a lot people will rate it down again.
20130609 19:54:34< bumbadadabum> perhaps
20130609 19:54:35< skyfaller> ... couldn't you have "staff" picks picked by an elite team, as well as community ratings? I think Firefox does that for their add-ons
20130609 19:54:46< bumbadadabum> ^
20130609 19:54:51< bumbadadabum> This would be best then
20130609 19:55:05< fabi_> skyfaller: Yes, we could.
20130609 19:55:43< skyfaller> that way people who don't trust the community can listen to the elite, and people who don't trust the elite can listen to the community ;-)
20130609 19:55:55< fabi_> Indeed.
20130609 19:56:14< LordBob_> I agree that there needs to be at least a definite set of people who are reliable as content reviewers. I couldn't rate addons because I rarely have time to play, and I wouldn't trust my own shitty advice on any of them
20130609 19:56:23< bumbadadabum> IMDB is a good example of that as well
20130609 19:56:30< fabi_> But we could establish a simple rating system, without restrictions and just see how it deos. If it doesn't work we can go and restrict it.
20130609 19:56:56< bumbadadabum> [self_plug] I could rate.
20130609 19:57:09< bumbadadabum> I've played around 90% of 1.11 campaigns
20130609 19:57:27< fabi_> LordBob_: Rating systems are all over the internet for all kind of stuff. And most of them work fine for their purposes. Why should Wesnoth differ?
20130609 20:00:11< fabi_> bumbadadabum: The average player will most likely more satisfied with a addon rated high by the average player than rated by an elitist group of much players.
20130609 20:00:40< lipkab> AI0867, Soliton, shadowm: Could any of you please have a look at the list here and remove the red entries from the 1.10 server? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38958
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20130609 20:09:26< fabi_> bumbadadabum: To be precise, I would not deny you the right to rate just because you play much. I just would not deny "normal" players the vote.
20130609 20:11:21< bumbadadabum> Whatever is best for the community
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20130609 20:12:21< fabi_> bumbadadabum: And I bet at the end good stuff like IftU and others would most likely get the high ranking they deserve, no matter who the raters are.
20130609 20:13:27< bumbadadabum> well, I know one example of an add-on that will get high rating from the community but very low ones from the elite
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20130609 20:14:28< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Let me guess. To Lands Unknown.
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20130609 20:14:43< lipkab> fabi_: Wrong!!!
20130609 20:14:49< bumbadadabum> ^
20130609 20:15:17< lipkab> fabi_: It's Legend of the Invincibles, the creation of him, the personal nemesis of bumbadadabum!
20130609 20:15:41< bumbadadabum> lipkab: Good boy
20130609 20:16:03< bumbadadabum> lipkab: Where did you get that from, I don't really rant about it here
20130609 20:16:23< fabi_> I tried it, only a few days ago.
20130609 20:16:25< bumbadadabum> and afaik you're not in my humble abode
20130609 20:17:09< lipkab> bumbadadabum: I got the impression from this extremely childish fight you picked against Dugi http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38945
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20130609 20:17:59< bumbadadabum> lipkab: No, that pissed me off because of the fact it's LITERALLY Mabuse's add-on
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20130609 20:18:34< fabi_> The Library of Kratemaqht is and addon I would rate high, pretty much fun.
20130609 20:18:49< fabi_> s/and/an
20130609 20:18:49< bumbadadabum> fabi_: I haven't tried that
20130609 20:18:59< bumbadadabum> I might do that now
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20130609 20:19:19< fabi_> bumbadadabum: Yeah, if we had a rating system you surely would have by now...
20130609 20:19:22< lipkab> bumbadadabum: Oh well... and I also see a few things you don't.
20130609 20:19:32< lipkab> But I'll just shut up now.
20130609 20:19:45< lipkab> ...before the Grumpy One kills me.
20130609 20:27:51< AI0867> lipkab: I don't have the required access
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20130609 20:28:11< AI0867> (to remove stuff from the add-on server, that is)
20130609 20:28:44< lipkab> Ok.
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20130609 20:32:57< zookeeper> bumbadadabum, ageless era? D:
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20130609 20:33:13< bumbadadabum> zookeeper: Ageless is a good idea
20130609 20:33:26< bumbadadabum> but mnewton didn't think one thing through
20130609 20:33:29< bumbadadabum> maintaining
20130609 20:33:50< bumbadadabum> UnwiseOwl's era is the perfect thing for this
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20130609 20:41:05< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 4b3fc0 / .travis.yml: Travis config http://git.io/m5wc3A
20130609 20:41:07< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 3c0a58 / .travis.yml: Travis config update http://git.io/XRgnbA
20130609 20:41:09< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 076235 / .travis.yml: Another travis config update http://git.io/T2U-zA
20130609 20:41:12< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master cd9c7e / .travis.yml: Travis config: clang http://git.io/pQYgdg
20130609 20:41:14< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master d990b3 / src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into travis http://git.io/O7g7qA
20130609 20:41:16< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master cdf0ea / .travis.yml: Colorize travis output http://git.io/c19QlA
20130609 20:41:18< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master d6208c / / (32 files in 9 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into travis http://git.io/fd__Fg
20130609 20:41:20< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 2fd37e / .travis.yml: Color changes http://git.io/GQSLyA
20130609 20:41:22< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master ad45da / .travis.yml: Build every branch that is pushed http://git.io/bNXBSA
20130609 20:41:26< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 433b61 / / (7 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into travis http://git.io/176JfQ
20130609 20:41:26< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 17ae0b / .travis.yml: We don't need boost::thread anymore http://git.io/p2iZrQ
20130609 20:41:28< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 423e19 / .travis.yml: Cat config.log if the build fails http://git.io/aUBIVw
20130609 20:41:30< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 215f7e / / (185 files in 4 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into travis http://git.io/ox897A
20130609 20:41:31< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 644dc3 / / (583 files in 41 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into travis http://git.io/sZaUdw
20130609 20:41:34< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 45fe09 / .travis.yml: The scons thing seems to be fixed http://git.io/RhzU4g
20130609 20:41:35< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 25907e / .travis.yml: Merge branch 'travis' http://git.io/6beVhw
20130609 20:41:38< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 02f73a / .travis.yml: Report to #wesnoth-dev http://git.io/xnHqRQ
20130609 20:41:40< irker547> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:1.10 714fd5 / .travis.yml: Add .travis.yml with boost::thread reenabled http://git.io/eB9skg
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20130609 20:45:18< fabi_> AI0867: What is travis?
20130609 20:45:22-!- LordNasty [~NaSTy@93-43-163-20.ip92.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20130609 20:45:27< AI0867> https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old
20130609 20:45:39< AI0867> hosted continuous integration system
20130609 20:45:43< AI0867> integrated with github
20130609 20:47:01< fabi_> AI0867: Sorry, that term tells me nothing. Would you please say in a few words what it is used for?
20130609 20:47:25-!- LordBob_ [~LordBob_@2a01:e34:ee82:47e0:21e:c2ff:fe01:261f] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20130609 20:48:40< AI0867> build stuff (and run tests) every time someone pushes
20130609 20:49:05< fabi_> LordBob_: I think you are suited for rating. You know the game well enough and if you enjoy a campaign/whatever, why shouldn't the newbe not enjoy it?
20130609 20:49:17< fabi_> AI0867: Ah, that sounds pretty useful.
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20130609 20:52:24< mattsc> flix: TBH, I don't know if it actually is a bug; and I don't know who's "in charge" of the hotkey system either.  I'm pretty useless today.  ;)
20130609 20:55:06< fabi_> AI0867: Looks like you enabled it for the first time?
20130609 20:55:29< flix> mattsc: okay, I'll push the patch within the next hour. Do you want to test it then?
20130609 20:56:01< mattsc> flix: sure.  The tests should be pretty easy, right?  Just figure out whether I can kill units in a few test cases?
20130609 20:57:08< flix> mattsc: yes :) Again: I'm not sure if there are special cases or something. I only tested it in a normal multiplayer game
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20130609 21:00:03< mattsc> flix: nothing I can think of.  [We don't need to worry whether this has the potential of breaking scenarios, since it's a debug feature only; of course you can break things with debug features.]  I'll test it in a couple of my test scenarios once you commit it.
20130609 21:01:56< AI0867> how long have the tests been broken? I remember it hanging on a nanosleep before, but I'm not sure
20130609 21:02:36< AI0867> (that is, SDL_Delay somewhere in gui2, when trying to show objectives)
20130609 21:03:07< shadowm> fabi_: For old posts you can edit them and check the Include Signature option in the post editor or so.
20130609 21:03:11< bumbadadabum> fabi_: I'm trying The Library of somethingIcannotspell
20130609 21:03:16< bumbadadabum> thanks for the suggestion
20130609 21:03:19< bumbadadabum> it's pretty good
20130609 21:03:23< shadowm> Although editing past posts for that purpose is insane, to say the least.
20130609 21:04:50< AI0867> fabi_: on this repository, yes
20130609 21:05:05< AI0867> I've run a test on my personal clone before
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20130609 21:06:43< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#1 (master - 02f73a6 : Alexander van Gessel): The build passed.
20130609 21:06:43< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/compare/70e4b9afb43f...02f73a62a0aa
20130609 21:06:43< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/7930887
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20130609 21:17:57< mattsc> fabi, LordBob_, vultraz: just did a full clean and build and get a crash right after starting a scenario with this: http://pastebin.com/9qDZeEjg
20130609 21:18:14< mattsc> fabi_: ^  (sorry wrong nick)
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20130609 21:23:37< shadowm> mattsc: Does the scenario use a custom theme?
20130609 21:24:27< mattsc> shadowm: ah, hmm.  The scenario does not, but I have a wesnoth-wide custom theme enabled ...
20130609 21:24:40< mattsc> Let me check ...
20130609 21:25:06< LordBob_> mattsc: definitely a consequence of some recent cleanup. Some usage of the lite button must have slipped past vultraz before he committed https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/7d654199ed74c6afb9fe9fa26d4e2e0683f26fc2
20130609 21:25:17< shadowm> Okay, that might be it. Although it would be nice if vultraz or fabi_ could figure out how to not make custom themes crash Wesnoth (due to a GUI1 exception reaching main()) when missing button images.
20130609 21:25:53< shadowm> Because I had to deal with the same issue in my campaign last night.
20130609 21:26:32< mattsc> shadowm, LordBob_: yeah, disabling that theme removes the crash.  Thanks.  I saw that there was some clean-up going on but have to admit that I wasn't paying much attention.
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20130609 21:27:16< shadowm> mattsc: So, is it an alternative theme from mainline, or an add-on?
20130609 21:27:41< mattsc> shadowm: it's my own "Large Font" theme (add-on)
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20130609 21:30:47< shadowm> mattsc: Hm...
20130609 21:30:55< shadowm> Does it change anything besides the font size?
20130609 21:32:40< mattsc> shadowm: yes, it changes the sizes of panels etc., so that the larger font fits in.  I can check it out later, or if there's something specific you're looking for, it's here: https://github.com/mattsc/Wesnoth-FontSize
20130609 21:32:58< mattsc> It's pretty crappy though atm, I wouldn't recommend using it.  :P
20130609 21:33:22< shadowm> Nah, I was just going to suggest fixes for the crashing buttons.
20130609 21:33:25< LordBob_> fabi_, mattsc, shadowm: implementing the use of a default image would definitely beat systematic crashes
20130609 21:34:14< shadowm> LordBob_: Well, more like a fallback for when a theme specifies an imageset that can't b loaded.
20130609 21:34:29< shadowm> I _hope_ there is a default when the theme doesn't specify anything.
20130609 21:35:19< LordBob_> shadowm: same idea, but you phrase it better than I do
20130609 21:35:27< fabi_> Sure, there is.
20130609 21:35:58< fabi_> But isn't it meant to exit Wesnoth?
20130609 21:36:10< fabi_> I mean, the code that does that exists for a purpose.
20130609 21:36:17< irker547> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master 9d1dfe / / (11 files in 4 dirs): Add possibility to kill unit under cursor http://git.io/WTQNOg
20130609 21:36:21< flix> mattsc: ^
20130609 21:36:27< shadowm> We shouldn't allow add-ons to cause Wesnoth to do what basically amounts to a handled crash.
20130609 21:36:59< shadowm> I can't believe this still needs to be explicitly stated. :p
20130609 21:37:27< shadowm> Also, it's not that the theme engine asks Wesnoth to quit. As I said, it's an unhandled GUI1 exception that gets caught in main().
20130609 21:38:09< shadowm> Handler on src/game.cpp:709.
20130609 21:38:53< fabi_> shadowm: Okay, I will take care about it. But this isn't new, is it? I mean I did not introduce that behavior, did I?
20130609 21:38:56< shadowm> When all buttons were broken because of an oversight from vultraz, only the theme UI caused the gae to do this.
20130609 21:39:18< shadowm> e.g. the Load Game dialog threw an exception and it was caught without causing Wesnoth to exit.
20130609 21:39:23< skyfaller> hey folks, are y'all familiar with the bug where you use planning mode, plan an attack but execute some other move first, and it crashes the game? I'm a bug noob and can't find a specific bug for this
20130609 21:39:27< shadowm> (Although it was reported in a rather obtuse manner.)
20130609 21:39:54< skyfaller> but I can replicate the behavior very reliably
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20130609 21:41:14< shadowm> fabi_: Just tested, it also affects 1.10.
20130609 21:41:33< shadowm> So probably not you. I just suggested you for the fix since you've been doing stuff in the theme engine as of late.
20130609 21:41:55< fabi_> shadowm: Yes, I am the right person to ask. I know exactly where to look at.
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20130609 21:43:24< shadowm> LordBob_: Mind if I /query (private message on IRC) you?
20130609 21:43:26< Soliton> skyfaller: please post a bug report.
20130609 21:43:46< LordBob_> shadowm Sure, go ahead
20130609 21:44:04< skyfaller> Soliton: OK, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing an obvious existing bug b/c I'm searching badly or something
20130609 21:44:51< mattsc> flix: ugh, looks like I need to do a complete clean and build again ...
20130609 21:46:53< flix> mattsc: okay. btw, the .patch file was a mess (I needed to copy the changes by hand). I hope the one with the 87 files to change is better :D
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20130609 21:49:49< mattsc> flix: yeah, really ...
20130609 21:52:36< flix> mattsc: The thing was that the patch file was based on a commit which don't exist in the public repo. My guess is that he made a local commit (a previous patch or something) and based this patch on the not-public commit.
20130609 21:55:23< Soliton> lipkab: target confirmed. red entries eliminated.
20130609 21:59:27< fabi_> vultraz, LordBob_: The disabled buttons in the editor look different, somehow I liked the old ones better. Did you change anything with them?
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20130609 21:59:57< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#2 (master - 9d1dfe0 : flix): The build passed.
20130609 21:59:57< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/compare/02f73a62a0aa...9d1dfe063858
20130609 21:59:57< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/7931898
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20130609 22:00:22< lipkab> Soliton: Thankies.
20130609 22:01:00< LordBob_> fabi_: vultraz did. He systematized the use of the ~GS function instead of having specific artwork. However, this method of grayscale calculation gives different results from the desaturation I had used in photoshop
20130609 22:03:33< LordBob_> fabi_: ideally, I would like that we manage to define an alternate Grayscale method, but I think this (maybe) requires some knowledge of SDL functions and coding a new ImagePathFile function
20130609 22:05:48< LordBob_> fabi_: I think I have a good idea of the required math, but it's the coding skill that I lack
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20130609 22:09:10< shadowm> LordBob_: Implementing an alternate method should actually be very easy.
20130609 22:09:20< shadowm> Provided we know the maths involved, which I don't.
20130609 22:09:48< shadowm> Then the method name could be an optional argument to the ~GS() function. There are other such image path functions which take optional arguments (usually numbers).
20130609 22:10:05< mattsc> flix: ah, crap, I'm an idiot!  Again.
20130609 22:10:30< fabi_> LordBob_: What shadowm said. If you know the math the coding might not be a big problem.
20130609 22:11:25< shadowm> If some coder wants to take a stab at it I'd suggest adding an enum type parameter to greyscale_image() (sdl_utils.hpp) to select the algorithm used for the grayscale conversion in the implementation's pixel loop.
20130609 22:12:32< shadowm> greyscale_image() is used by the implementation of ~GS(), of course.
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20130609 22:13:19< fabi_> shadowm: Why not just replace the old greyscale with the one LordBob_ like to have?
20130609 22:13:26< fabi_> *function
20130609 22:13:38< LordBob_> fabi_: m not sure which method will be the correct one (there are at least three), but if you understood anything shadowm said above, maybe I can point you to the likeliest method
20130609 22:13:52< LordBob_> fabi_: no replacing
20130609 22:14:23< LordBob_> fabi_: in the sameway, the current method doesn't behave like we expect, other users probably wouldn't find the new one fit to their needs
20130609 22:14:55< fabi_> LordBob_: Yes, I understand what shadowm said.
20130609 22:15:01< fabi_> LordBob_: Let me have a look.
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20130609 22:16:27< LordBob_> fabi_: all right.
20130609 22:16:35< fabi_> LordBob_: Okay, the function is quite small. It just implements // gray=0.299red+0.587green+0.114blue
20130609 22:16:43< fabi_> LordBob_: What math do you like to have?
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20130609 22:18:24< LordBob_> fabi_: basically, the current method is a straight calcul based on RGB values. What Photoshop did for the 'disabled' images I provided (I think), is to convert them to HSL values, then assign S (saturation) to 0, then convert back to RGB vaues 
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20130609 22:19:10< LordBob_> fabi_: so, an alternate method would need to do this: 1. RGB->HSL convert 2. HS0->RGB convert
20130609 22:19:35< fabi_> okay
20130609 22:20:00< LordBob_> (H0L->RGB, this should have read)
20130609 22:20:03< shadowm> fabi_: What LordBob_ said about the current method's behavior, although I don't know how many people would care too strongly about it.
20130609 22:20:26< shadowm> Artists certainly do, as well as color-obsessed people like me.
20130609 22:20:49< shadowm> Players generally wouldn't notice the difference unless we were doing something horribly wrong to start with.
20130609 22:22:04< Gambit> fabi_: So in general websites and content aggregators are moving away from the 5 stars system.
20130609 22:22:11< Gambit> Because over 90% of results are either 1 or 5.
20130609 22:23:09< Gambit> fabi_: Also, did you see my suggestion on the forums about fuzzing rankings?
20130609 22:23:35< Gambit> To avoid having a "top" add-on.
20130609 22:24:41< LordBob_> fabi_: here is the math for RGB to HSL : http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/color/rgb-to-hsl.htm
20130609 22:24:51< Gambit> Basically the top X% of add-ons would be randomly ordered every time when sorted by rating.
20130609 22:25:02< LordBob_> fabi_: and HSL to RGB http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/color/hsl-to-rgb.htm
20130609 22:25:13< LordBob_> (I did say 'math' :s)
20130609 22:25:17< mattsc> flix: okay, I have now tested it in a campaign scenario ([scenario] tag), a test scenario ([test]) and in a MP game.  The menu option works in all cases.
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20130609 22:26:11< Gambit> Alternatively, the add-ons we send to the client regarding rating are +/- X% of the add-ons actual rating.
20130609 22:26:17< mattsc> flix: however, the hotkey is not set for me.  It shows up neither in the hotkey dialog nor in the menu.  I do not know if that's because it's not set correctly, or because I have already customized hotkeys previously and so the new default does not take effect.
20130609 22:26:18< Gambit> *the numbers we send to the client
20130609 22:27:12< shadowm> LordBob_: That actually looks simpler than I thought. As in, the implementation itself. Still no idea what's the rationale behind all the math. :p
20130609 22:27:20< fabi_> Gambit: Yes, I read your proposal. And I like to implement it. I would have gone and just taken every 5 stars rated one and presented them randomly.
20130609 22:27:51< fabi_> Gambit: What is used instead of the 5 stars system? The like and not like thing youtube offers?
20130609 22:28:26< AI0867> I don't know if HSL or HSV is more relevant though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV
20130609 22:28:55< Gambit> fabi_: Basically.
20130609 22:31:22< fabi_> Gambit: Okay, then we go with that system.
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20130609 22:32:23< AI0867> yes, like/dislike
20130609 22:32:34< AI0867> or you can go one step further and do a facebook
20130609 22:32:35< LordBob_> AI0867: all I can say is that the photoshop dialog I'm using is label with Hue, Saturation, Lightness, so HSL is probably what we need. Don't know if it's the best coordinate system, though
20130609 22:32:57< AI0867> LordBob_: well, take a look at the color cylinders shown on wikipedia
20130609 22:33:01< AI0867> maybe they'll help
20130609 22:33:03< LordBob_> *labeled
20130609 22:34:05< fabi_> AI0867: I do not know the facebook way of rating. How is it done?
20130609 22:34:12< AI0867> like
20130609 22:34:15< AI0867> nothing else
20130609 22:35:08< fabi_> Okay 
20130609 22:35:56< fabi_> AI0867: Maybe the forum poll system does not support a single item.
20130609 22:35:58< shadowm> I don't really like Facebook's system. It's ridiculous.
20130609 22:36:19< LordBob_> AI0867: I did, and now I'm confused. The Hue/Saturation adjustment dialog is indeed labeled with "Lightness", but the color picker refers to "Brightness" and its color display is definetely the HSV cynlinder
20130609 22:37:20< flix> mattsc: do you see the entry for the hotkey in the preferences (so is the entry there but just not assigned)?
20130609 22:37:45< LordBob_> fabi_:  can you wait some more before taking care of the grayscale function ? I would rather check what *really* happens, in CS6, don't want to give you the wrong method
20130609 22:38:01< fabi_> LordBob_: sure
20130609 22:40:27< fabi_> shadowm, Gambit: Do you have any idea how I can easily mine the poll results from phpbb?
20130609 22:41:04< Gambit> I am not familiar with the table layout.
20130609 22:42:46< shadowm> phpbb3_poll_votes contains topic_id, poll_option_id, vote_user_id, vote_user_ip.
20130609 22:44:33< fabi_> shadowm: hmmm, topic_id is useful for select from.
20130609 22:44:42< fabi_> shadowm: But where is the result?
20130609 22:44:45< shadowm> phpbb3_poll_options contains poll_option_id, topic_id, poll_option_text, poll_option_total.
20130609 22:44:59< shadowm> I assume the poll question is attached to the topic in phpbb3_topics.
20130609 22:45:16< shadowm> fabi_: Nowhere.
20130609 22:45:22< shadowm> I think.
20130609 22:45:31< fabi_> hmmm, it is not in the database?
20130609 22:45:41< shadowm> I'd have to check the super-dense PHP, but I suspect it's calculated from a query of phpbb3_poll_votes.
20130609 22:46:05< shadowm> It may or may not be cached using phpBB's standard on-disk cache facilities.
20130609 22:46:30< fabi_> shadowm: Thus poll_option_id is the option(s) selected by the vote_user_id?
20130609 22:48:07< mattsc> flix: yes, the entry is there, it just doesn't have an assiked key
20130609 22:48:19< mattsc> *assigned
20130609 22:49:09< flix> mattsc: okay, this is because your preferences file overwrites the default. You have to assign it for yourself or hit the button "restore defaults" then.
20130609 22:49:44< mattsc> flix: yeah, I figured.  Will test that later, right now I am off again.  It's one of those days...  :P
20130609 22:50:00< flix> mattsc: okay :) see you
20130609 22:51:54< shadowm> fabi_: Yes. The value's meaning is unique to the topic.
20130609 22:52:11< fabi_> shadowm: Can I have commandline access to the server where the database for our phpbb runs? I worked as a system administrator for some time, thus I know what I am doing.
20130609 22:52:16< shadowm> Dunno if you know SQL, maybe I should just paste the CREATE TABLE statement.
20130609 22:52:25< shadowm> fabi_: Ehhhh, no
20130609 22:52:30< fabi_> shadowm: Yes, I know how to code SQL.
20130609 22:53:00< shadowm> Mostly because that is not up to me and I wouldn't trust someone I haven't worked with before in administration with access to the full databasse.
20130609 22:53:12< shadowm> Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but I am paranoid like that.
20130609 22:53:33< fabi_> shadowm: I only need read access to the database.
20130609 22:53:52< shadowm> Yes, I didn't say I was worried about the read-write possibility in particular.
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20130609 22:58:34< AI0867> 22:35 < shadowm> I don't really like Facebook's system. It's ridiculous. <-- I don't think anybody does, but there's no dislike button ;)
20130609 22:58:44< shadowm> Har har.
20130609 22:58:52< fabi_> :-)
20130609 23:00:55< shadowm> These are the CREATE TABLE statements: http://pastebin.com/5vc3yyRB
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20130609 23:01:54< fabi_> shadowm: What database backend are we using? mysql?
20130609 23:02:17< shadowm> MySQL, yes.
20130609 23:02:59< fabi_> Okay, cool. I learned SQL with that. 
20130609 23:03:19< fabi_> shadowm: I guess the best is to setup a local phpbb and develop with it.
20130609 23:04:22< shadowm> Yes. Installing phpBB is extremely easy.
20130609 23:05:05< shadowm> And so is creating a few polls.
20130609 23:06:18< fabi_> Yeah, i have done it a dozen times. phpbb was part of a project I worked on.
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20130609 23:08:30< LordBob_> fabi_: on the Grayscale matter, I looked up the math and I think we should indeed use the HS*L* formulas
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20130609 23:09:25< fabi_> LordBob_: Okay, I will do it with them then. But I won't give it a high priority, the current situation isn't bad.
20130609 23:10:37< LordBob_> Naturally
20130609 23:11:03< fabi_> shadowm: Ah yes, the ldap test phpbb is still installed and ready to use on my Desktop :-)
20130609 23:11:23< LordBob_> Just to be certain, I will make a few experiments myself and confirm once I am certain that it gives the desired results
20130609 23:12:16< LordBob_> 'night people
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20130609 23:25:13< fabi_> shadowm: Is there an interface to submit posts? I mean beside the web browser of course.
20130609 23:25:40< shadowm> The web browsers uses the one interface there is.
20130609 23:27:37< shadowm> Well, the script in question in turn calls the submit_post() function from includes/functions_posting.php, but that's more of an internal thing.
20130609 23:27:55< shadowm> I've never used phpBB's API from external scripts myself.
20130609 23:27:57< fabi_> shadowm: https://wiki.phpbb.com/Function.submit_post
20130609 23:28:27< mattsc> flix: (just stopping by for a few minutes again)  yes, resetting the defaults does the job and the hotkey works after that.  Thanks.
20130609 23:28:44< fabi_> shadowm: Which version do we us?e 3.0?
20130609 23:28:50< shadowm> fabi_: Yes.
20130609 23:29:00< shadowm> 3.1 hasn't even entered beta yet.
20130609 23:29:05< flix> mattsc: okay, so I'll close this patch on gna.
20130609 23:29:17< mattsc> flix: sounds good.  Thanks.
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20130609 23:37:41-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: current repo: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old (Please read the dev-ml for the latest status!) | http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 196 bugs, 333 feature requests, 27 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20130609 23:40:14< mattsc> flix: btw, I didn't know whether the preferences override all default hotkeys or just the ones that are specifically changed.  I guess I have my answer now.
20130609 23:41:37< fabi_> mattsc: The hotkeys are saved completely iirc.
20130609 23:42:49< mattsc> fabi_: that's what I figured, otherwise a new command should not be changed the first time I use it.
20130609 23:43:09< mattsc> *the hotkey for a new command should not ...
20130609 23:43:15< fabi_> right
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 10 00:00:41 2013