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20130620 03:36:27< lowsfer> Hi, I'm trying to write an [effect] in amla.cfg. But I got a problem in [filter] part. Could anyone tell me how to fix it? See http://pastebin.com/Vcsii3mA
20130620 03:40:41< shadowm> You are trying to match a unit whose [variable] subcontainer has an attribute named 'name' matching 'max_experience', and an attribute named 'greater_than' matching '120'.
20130620 03:41:53< shadowm> I honestly doubt you have such a unit.
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20130620 09:40:29< janebot> Wesnoth Forums | Developers’ Discussions • [Announcement] 1.4 and 1.6 add-on servers to be closed down by shadowmaster [ 06-20-2013 07:37 ] [ http://r.wesnoth.org/p555763 ]
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20130620 10:15:52< shadowm> !log 21a642673bef3bc4931cd47d431cf107e96563ed
20130620 10:15:53< shikadibot> shadowm: Revision 21a642 (flix) on Fri Jun 14 17:06:39 2013:
20130620 10:15:53< shikadibot> shadowm: Add deprecation message for <protect_my_unit>
20130620 10:15:53< shikadibot> shadowm:  
20130620 10:15:53< shikadibot> shadowm: This redundant [goal] can be achieved
20130620 10:15:53< shikadibot> shadowm: (+2 discarded lines)
20130620 10:15:55< shikadibot> shadowm: Web interface URL: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/21a642
20130620 10:16:09< shadowm> flix: It'd be good if wmllint could convert instances of this too...
20130620 10:17:09< shadowm> Or that the changelog mentioned what people are meant to use instead.
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20130620 12:34:45< H-Hour> fabi, LordBob_ I really like the new ui mockup all around. like shadowm, however, my first reaction to the end turn area was that it was cluttered and confusing. i understand the rationale behind showing the future side turns, but I wonder how valuable it really is and whether it might be considered misleading in some situations.
20130620 12:35:52< H-Hour> if i have a scenario where a side becomes visible partway through, i assume the UI will not tell me this. but some players may "trust" the ui and feel mislead when it does appear and the side list changes.
20130620 12:36:51< H-Hour> also, i may be an outlier, but i'm always missing that end turn button on the current ui. if you consider redoing the bottom right corner, can I suggest something big and roomy like this: http://imagebin.org/261974
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20130620 12:40:26< vultraz> LordBob_: I think shadowm has a very valid point about the gems side indicator. I think that section should be removed
20130620 12:41:16< vultraz> LordBob_: I also think that the two section (endturn and main) should be merged into one, no empty space between them, to create more space
20130620 12:42:40< vultraz> LordBob_: also, move the entire main stats section up a few pixels (<10) on to be close to the unit name/type
20130620 12:43:07< LordBob_> vultraz, H-Hour: we are currently discussing this whole matter. I proposed the addition because an old note from Blamurryman mentionned that players in MP games sometimes need to know the sequence of turns between them, but the solution we have proposed is far from optimal
20130620 12:43:38< vultraz> LordBob_: I would also suggest moving the terrain type icons and x,y coords to the topbar, since those are global and not exclusive to units
20130620 12:44:12< vultraz> you also free up another row, creating even more space
20130620 12:45:02< vultraz> with that, you should have space for at least another attack icon, should need arise
20130620 12:45:13< vultraz> attack stats row*
20130620 12:45:19< LordBob_> Hmm.. Terrain types are also very relevant to the unit who is standing on them 
20130620 12:45:53< LordBob_> It's not very practical to have to look at the ToD display, then switch to the topbar to confirm the terrain type
20130620 12:46:20< vultraz> LordBob_: I think it's pretty obv when you see trees it's forest
20130620 12:46:55< vultraz> LordBob_: see, in game, the terrain types labels aren't as specific as the editor. They only show base terrain
20130620 12:47:17< vultraz> LordBob_: and now, with your fancy unit box display, we could even do away with those all together
20130620 12:47:30< LordBob_> The forest is obvious, but not everyone will know that its base types are really "forest, flat"
20130620 12:47:51< LordBob_> Same goes with bridges, for example
20130620 12:48:21< LordBob_> But altogether, yes, I would really appreciate if we could define a system that is clear enough to avoid the use of terrain type icons
20130620 12:48:35< LordBob_> However, it is not so simple
20130620 12:49:50< vultraz> well, still, I doubt many players pay attemtion to that
20130620 12:50:04< LordBob_> For example, say your UMC creates a specific terrain that behavs like "flat, mushrooms", and in addition you create a specific ToD box background for it. How will the player know what he's looking at, if not for the icons ?
20130620 12:50:18< LordBob_> *behaves
20130620 12:51:36< LordBob_> On the other hand, we could decide that the terrain defense stat is enough for the player
20130620 12:52:49< vultraz> LordBob_: also, a player can see the order of sides by looking at the status box
20130620 12:53:14< vultraz> (pressing Alt + S)
20130620 12:53:39< vultraz> LordBob_: there is no way to display the order for hidden sides without spoiling surprises
20130620 12:53:54< vultraz> LordBob_: therefor, I really think that section should be removed
20130620 12:54:09< vultraz> you can already see the current side by looking at the flag anyway
20130620 12:55:09< vultraz> LordBob_: could I have the psd/xcf file, I'll create an edited mockup?
20130620 12:55:34< LordBob_> vultraz: problem with the status box is that it requires to open a specific dialog, and sometimes you don't even know it exists (I discovered it only this morning, and that wasn't even by chance)
20130620 12:56:10< LordBob_> As for hidden sides, the idea would be to avoid showing them in the sequence, of course
20130620 12:58:22< vultraz> LordBob_: what about a tooltip if you hover over the flag that shows the flags for upcoming sides, in order?
20130620 13:02:02< LordBob_> Might be a good possibility, yes
20130620 13:03:30< vultraz> LordBob_: anyway, could I have the xcf/psd file?
20130620 13:05:17< LordBob_> Hmm.. I can share it, but I'm not spending the afternoon giving explanations of what sits in which layer etc. You'll have to handle it on your own 
20130620 13:07:07< LordBob_> vultraz: if it's only for a mock-up, can't you do copy/paste with the flat jpg ?
20130620 13:07:52< vultraz> I end up with ugly transparent bits
20130620 13:09:11< LordBob_> who cares ? It's a mock-up, not the final thing
20130620 13:09:29< vultraz> eh, alright, lemme see what I can do
20130620 13:18:32< vultraz> LordBob_: BTW...why do you have gray borders around the box when the real border of the sidebar is a few pixels further out?
20130620 13:19:47< LordBob_> the grey borders are templates for placing the borders of the widget. It's the same as the editor
20130620 13:20:15< LordBob_> We could gain a few more pixels, but we do not really need them
20130620 13:21:38< vultraz> ah
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20130620 13:26:16< LordBob_> vultraz: it's one of those situations where you have to search for the best compromise between design and efficiencey. Same goes for the minimap
20130620 13:26:37< LordBob_> * efficiency
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20130620 13:29:40< vultraz> LordBob_: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l02q9qs2sk15snw/UI-game-mockups-07-vult.jpg
20130620 13:29:57< vultraz> LordBob_: there's even space for another row of traits/abilities, should it beneeded
20130620 13:31:43< vultraz> LordBob_: I believe we should support at least 4 attacks without scrolling; 4 seems to be a general umc number for attacks
20130620 13:35:07< vultraz> LordBob_: I believe my version is better because A: more attack space B: some extra space if needed C: it's simpler, so it's easier on the eye
20130620 13:35:23< LordBob_> we'll see what can be done. I still think it's unergonomic to separate terrain info like this
20130620 13:36:13< LordBob_> As for weapons, you never know how many of them there will be in the next crazy rpg-style addon, so i'd rather implement a scrolling mechanism and be done with it once for all
20130620 13:36:34< vultraz> LordBob_: well...you could still maybe have the trrain icons on a corner of the unit box (with the reduced height) and the hex coords up in the topbar
20130620 13:37:21< vultraz> LordBob_: and yes, that's true - we need a scroll mech, but I think it should be able to fit 4 without scrolling, since a lot of addons (I think) have 4 attack units
20130620 13:37:24< vultraz> bumbadadabum: amirite?
20130620 13:38:37< bumbadadabum> vultraz: 3 is the limit for mainline I think
20130620 13:38:44< vultraz> bumbadadabum: UMC
20130620 13:38:45< bumbadadabum> but there are quite some add-ons with 4 attacks
20130620 13:38:53< bumbadadabum> (mostly the RPG add-ons)
20130620 13:38:55< vultraz> bumbadadabum: Elynia comes to mind
20130620 13:39:36< bumbadadabum> 4 without scrolling would be good
20130620 13:40:00< vultraz> LordBob_: ^
20130620 13:40:44< vultraz> LordBob_: I think the design for excess abilities/traits should be that more traits/abilities get put in the next line under, forcing the attack list down (and using up some of the empty space in my mockup)
20130620 13:42:49< vultraz> LordBob_: that way, we only need one scroll section - for attacks
20130620 13:42:58< LordBob_> I stand by what I said earlier. We'll try and fit 4 (yet even this much can't be certain because it"s already based on the assumption that a unit is going to have 4 traits and abilities altogether), and see to a scrolling mechanism
20130620 13:43:20< LordBob_> Besides, remember that this is only the 1024x768 screen
20130620 13:43:30< vultraz> yeah
20130620 13:43:31< LordBob_> taller screens will have more vertical space
20130620 13:44:04< vultraz> but in an addon like SXRPG you can have more than 4 traits/abilities
20130620 13:44:38< vultraz> which is why I'm saying, if more than  4 get added, move the attack list down dynamically  and add a new row for the new traits/abilities
20130620 13:44:58< vultraz> I'm not sure that's possible...though
20130620 13:45:36< vultraz> if not, I'm not sure what to suggest for more than 4 traits/abilities
20130620 13:46:07< vultraz> and Im probably being a bother so I'll stop :P
20130620 13:47:06< LordBob_> I don't know how these profiles are drawn, but logic says that you line up as many as there are, same with weapons, and add a scrollbar for the whole profile box when required
20130620 13:47:24< LordBob_> but we'll see when we get there
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20130620 15:14:20< Crendgrim> are the new ToD images final?
20130620 15:18:35< vultraz> Crendgrim: I think LordBob_ said they were quick work, not his best, just proof of concept. That might mean he'll update them later, but I'm not sure
20130620 15:19:58< vultraz> Crendgrim: I think the focus right now is to get a working model
20130620 15:20:02< fabi> Crendgrim: Not even their shape is final yet.
20130620 15:20:17< Crendgrim> ah, okay. Good. :)
20130620 15:21:05< Crendgrim> I must say that in their current state, I don't really like them. If they get an overhaul, I didn't say anything, though :p
20130620 15:25:50< fabi> Crendgrim: Really? I thought they aren't that bad.
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20130620 15:27:12< Crendgrim> at their current state their colors draw a lot of attention to them (while the ToD is not something you have to always look at, just once per turn basically), and their quality is not on par with the rest of the game. So it kind of makes the whole window look worse than it could look. Well, IMO at least.
20130620 15:27:48< Crendgrim> (also, I personally don't like the rounded style - but that's a different thing. Maybe it influences my opinion a bit, though)
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20130620 15:28:17< fabi> Crendgrim: Yes, LordBob_ did them in a few hours (or even minutes?) only. He can do much better on them.
20130620 15:29:02< Crendgrim> yes :)
20130620 15:33:45< fabi> Crendgrim: But we will most likely stay with the round style, any special reason you don't like them or is it just a guts feel?
20130620 15:35:20< Crendgrim> it's my personal opinion. Nothing more. I don't like completely round parts in UIs
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20130620 16:27:20< LordBob_> Crendgrim: the round shape, I'm afraid, will remain. At best, it may become rib-like in the manner of a gothic arch. As for the skies, they are indeed minute-made placeholders for the purpose of creating a proof-of-concept
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20130620 16:42:45< vultraz> LordBob_: how about some decor around it to make it look like you're looking under an arch to the outside?
20130620 16:44:39< LordBob_> Something in that manner is planned, yes. I'm not going to let it be just a round picture with bland background all around
20130620 16:47:39< vultraz> ah, nice :)
20130620 16:49:56< vultraz> any idea when we'll see a working prototype?
20130620 16:50:15< LordBob_> Well, you're already seeing one, in a way :p
20130620 16:51:25< LordBob_> It likely won't happen before next week, art-wise. Code, now, is an entirely different matter, and a question best answered by fabi
20130620 16:52:16< LordBob_> What takes me a day to scribble on a mock-up is likely to require a lot more work code-wise
20130620 16:52:28< vultraz> Is this your job? just wondering
20130620 16:52:32< vultraz> (doing art)
20130620 16:52:42< LordBob_> I try to make it my job
20130620 16:54:26< LordBob_> It's been going well enough so far, but I'll soon reach a point where I need to reduce my wesnoth time and go client hunting to keep me afloat
20130620 16:55:17< vultraz> why don't you do some stuff for some big game company?
20130620 16:56:13< LordBob_> would like to, but contacting big game companies until one decides you can freelance for them is precisely the part of the job that takes a lot of time
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20130620 19:56:18< fabi> LordBob_: ping
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20130620 23:05:02< LordBob_> fabi:j back
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20130620 23:31:07< fabi> LordBob_: hi
20130620 23:32:09< LordBob_> hello again
20130620 23:32:23< fabi> LordBob_: About the healing icons.
20130620 23:32:35< LordBob_> Yes
20130620 23:32:49< fabi> We only use 4 and 8 as "parameters" for the healing ability.
20130620 23:33:32< fabi> But the base for coding healing allows arbitrary values. 
20130620 23:33:46< LordBob_> So, should the icon rather display Heal I / Heal II ?
20130620 23:34:05< fabi> hmmmm
20130620 23:34:09< fabi> Why?
20130620 23:34:24< LordBob_> To give an idea of rank
20130620 23:34:53< LordBob_> The player needs to know that one unit has better healing capacities than the other
20130620 23:35:18< fabi> Say a unit in UMC heals for 3 points per turn.
20130620 23:35:43< fabi> or only 2
20130620 23:36:10< fabi> I have seen a nice little campaign where goblin's raid a shaman school.
20130620 23:36:17< LordBob_> If it's the lowest possible heal for this race, then it's healing rank I
20130620 23:36:24< LordBob_> So, Heal I
20130620 23:36:25< LordBob_> $
20130620 23:37:00< fabi> The pupils of the school are lvl0 elvish shamans, healing for 2 points.
20130620 23:38:30< fabi> Might be solvable by a healing rank 0 icon.
20130620 23:38:42< LordBob_> Well... In this case, either the UMC creator introduces a new icon - which should be easy to do based on the existing ones
20130620 23:38:58< fabi> Same with regeneration.
20130620 23:39:04< LordBob_> or we simply don't show the heal parameter on the icon
20130620 23:39:13< LordBob_> and probably wait for the first complaints
20130620 23:40:11< LordBob_> It will be possible for an addon creator to customize the icons associated to a given trait, right ?
20130620 23:40:43< fabi> Well, yes. That can be implemented.
20130620 23:40:55< fabi> But do we want to do it?
20130620 23:41:19< fabi> I can think of 3 possible solutions:
20130620 23:41:37< LordBob_> Well...If we allow users to customize the effects of any given trait, might as well let them pick their icon as well...
20130620 23:41:45< fabi> 1) [heal icon] 4
20130620 23:41:54< fabi> or [heal icon] 8
20130620 23:42:13< fabi> Just a text digit after the icon.
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20130620 23:42:41< fabi> 2) Overlay icons, containing digits.
20130620 23:43:07< fabi> [heal icon] overlayed by [digit 4 icon]
20130620 23:44:12< LordBob_> 3) [heal icon] overlaid by [text digit] ?
20130620 23:44:20< fabi> These icons can be used everywhere. Unit level for example.
20130620 23:44:51< fabi> 3) Yes
20130620 23:45:48< LordBob_> Admittedly, using digit icons allows for a more predictable result
20130620 23:46:12< fabi> Yes
20130620 23:46:32< fabi> I just don't know which range we need.
20130620 23:46:45< fabi> 1 - 20?
20130620 23:46:47< fabi> 1- 100?
20130620 23:47:04< LordBob_> 1-9 ?
20130620 23:47:36< LordBob_> Would it not completely unalance the game to create a heal-16 skill anyway ?
20130620 23:47:43< LordBob_> *unbalance
20130620 23:48:19< fabi> balance is always a matter of the context.
20130620 23:48:44< LordBob_> The thing is, if you look at the heal icon, it can only accommodate a single digit
20130620 23:49:21< fabi> I see the space problem.
20130620 23:49:41< Laela> Can heal and regen icon appear at once?
20130620 23:50:05< LordBob_> Nothing forbids it, in theory
20130620 23:51:07< LordBob_> I don't think there currently exists in mainline a unit that would at the same time regenerate and be a healer, however
20130620 23:53:58< Laela> I agree, just only ability I can remember doing so has heal and regen with same value
20130620 23:54:02< _8680_> Perhaps “heal +4” could use a + (four spokes), “heal +8” a ✳ (an eight-spoked asterisk), and hypothetical “heal +16” a ✺ (a sixteen-spoked asterisk)?
20130620 23:54:23< fabi> But I bet there are addons with heal and regenerate on the same unit.
20130620 23:54:26< _8680_> “+” being a usual symbol for healing, and extrapolating from there.
20130620 23:55:55< fabi> LordBob_: My point is, every "thing" that can have an arbitrary value would be best addressed with a solution that allows the definition without the need for drawing extra art.
20130620 23:57:27< shadowm> I have an ability that does heals + cures + regenerates.
20130620 23:57:55< shadowm> In general, you should expect UMC to do everything that the engine currently allows.
20130620 23:58:09< fabi> yes
20130620 23:58:52< fabi> shadowm: In a single ability? Or do you have 3 abilities on the unit?
20130620 23:59:13< shadowm> You know that as far as the game engine cares every aspect is a separate ability.
20130620 23:59:38< fabi> But to the user you show only one?
20130620 23:59:41< shadowm> Composite abilities are done by having one of the abilities include display attributes (name, description, etc.) and providing the other abilities without them together.
20130620 23:59:55< fabi> I see.
--- Log closed Fri Jun 21 00:00:16 2013