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20130602 19:39:46< siddh> hi
20130602 19:43:18< siddh> regarding wml logic, if there's a filter in an event, say [event][filter][/filter] {remainder} [/event] , does the remainder execute and how is this related to the filter=
20130602 19:45:35< bumbadadabum> well, if the filter is met, it executes
20130602 19:45:51< siddh> alright :D
20130602 19:47:06< siddh> I understand that variables get substituted for their contents or value like {VARIABLE_OP example $example_2} variable would have the same value as $example_2 in this case, then how about when you do like this:
20130602 19:48:46< siddh> {FOREACH variablez i} {VARIABLE variablez[$i].variables.example_1 variablez[$i].variables.example_2} {next i}
20130602 19:49:11< siddh> is the value of example_1 now literally "variablez[$i].variables.example_2" or the *value* of example_2 variable of that unit?
20130602 19:49:39< siddh> in this case variablez would have units stored 
20130602 19:51:47< siddh> and as a follow up question, incase the value of example_1 is the literally "variablez..." then how must you phrase that to get the *value*? :D
20130602 19:52:36< shadowm> LIterally just variablez[$i].variables.example_2. Also, it's {NEXT ...}, not {next ...}
20130602 19:52:56< shadowm> To get the value of a variable, you put a $ sign in front of it, as in $i in your example.
20130602 19:53:05< shadowm> Or $example_2 in your earlier example.
20130602 19:53:57< siddh> but I tried this with $variablez[$i].variables.example_2 <- and i got an error?
20130602 19:53:57< shadowm> See also: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SyntaxWML#Variables
20130602 19:54:16< shadowm> What kind of error?
20130602 19:54:31< siddh> I don't remember anymore, but if you're saying it works that way
20130602 19:54:51< shadowm> You either mistyped something else or got a warning about substituting a variable that doesn't exist.
20130602 19:54:52< siddh> even in this context then the problem wasn't with this part :D
20130602 19:55:08< siddh> ohh that might be it
20130602 19:55:28< siddh> when you create a variable using another variable, like example_1 with value $example_2
20130602 19:55:42< siddh> and $example_2 happens to be blank, does that mean example_1 is not created, or that it will have blank value?
20130602 19:56:28< shadowm> Most likely the latter. Not that there's much difference between a variable that doesn't exist and one that is set to the empty string.
20130602 19:57:32< siddh> kk well thx for tips 
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20130602 20:15:54< siddh> hmm how about if the [filter]  in an event is inside [store_unit] - otherwise seame as the first question?
20130602 20:15:58< siddh> like:
20130602 20:16:30< siddh> [event][store_unit][filter][/filter][/store_unit] {remainder} [/event] , does the remainder execute? 
20130602 20:16:41< siddh> if the filter is not met?
20130602 20:19:25< bumbadadabum> it will
20130602 20:19:41< bumbadadabum> the tag the filter is in won
20130602 20:19:48< bumbadadabum> won't trigger if it's not met
20130602 20:19:56< bumbadadabum> so in this case, [store_unit]
20130602 20:20:33< bumbadadabum> so unless you put the [filter] directly in [event], it won't stop the rest from triggering
20130602 20:22:56< siddh> ahh kk thanks
20130602 20:36:35< bumbadadabum> do liches breathe?
20130602 20:36:44< bumbadadabum> or pseudo-breathe?
20130602 20:36:52< bumbadadabum> I mean, they can talk
20130602 20:36:56< bumbadadabum> so they must
20130602 20:37:41< zookeeper> that's like saying that they move so they must have muscles
20130602 20:39:59< bumbadadabum> they have magical muscles of some kind surely
20130602 20:40:17< zookeeper> so surely they also have magical vocal chords
20130602 20:40:36< zookeeper> or magical lungs, whichever
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20130602 20:47:15< siddh> as soon as I add the nested [not][filter_WML][variables]stunned="yes"  bit, the first event ceases to function in this one http://pastebin.com/AUn4QnQJ
20130602 20:49:04< bumbadadabum> it's [filter_wml], for starters
20130602 20:49:22< bumbadadabum> and I believe it's case-sensitive
20130602 20:51:25< siddh> alright that fixed that part
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20130602 20:52:33< siddh> but as debug messages i get "yes" and then blank
20130602 20:53:02< bumbadadabum> what does the terminal/stderr says?
20130602 20:53:11< siddh> stderr says nothing
20130602 20:53:32< siddh> but if you look at the part with the 3 modify_units and the debug messages around and it says "yes" and then blank
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20130602 20:54:00< siddh> so that I think means that $second_unit.zoc is "yes" and also that once it's used to create a value for the real_zoc , it doesn't create the value "yes" but instead blank
20130602 20:54:48< siddh> so I'm wondering if i have used those variables somehow incorrectly?
20130602 20:55:28< bumbadadabum> there is code for the stun special in UtBS
20130602 20:58:54< siddh> hmm 
20130602 20:59:34< siddh> it doesn't seem to filter for units which don't have zoc, which means that ability would give them zoc ?
20130602 20:59:46< siddh> except by filtering for level0 units
20130602 21:00:34< siddh> otherwise it seems somewhat similar, I don't know how to use those [object] things 
20130602 21:00:57< siddh> and also there's name=variable_name and boolean_equals.. is that boolean_equals somehow important when it comes to things like zoc?
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20130602 21:01:51< siddh> anyway thanks for the tip I'd probably spend ages trying to get there
20130602 21:01:52< siddh> :DD
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20130602 21:06:58< siddh> but anyhow doing that with the variables like $real_zoc is because I wanted to make it so that if the unit doesn't have zoc, it won't get it, once the stunned is removed
20130602 21:07:24< siddh> which would've been either by filtering first ifi t has zoc, or like i tried in that one storing the actual zoc into a variable
20130602 21:09:20< siddh> but according to that debug msg, even though $second_unit.zoc returns value yes, then this doesn't store {MODIFY_UNIT x,y=$x2,$y2 variables.real_zoc $second_unit.zoc} real_zoc with value "yes" so I don't get what I'm doing wrong and it would be nice to get it coz im sure there are other situations alike
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20130602 21:12:15< bumbadadabum> siddh: You can try it with a VARIABLE
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20130602 21:12:45< bumbadadabum> {VARIABLE second_unit.variables.real_zoc $second_unit.zoc
20130602 21:12:48< bumbadadabum> and then unstore
20130602 21:13:37< siddh> kk
20130602 21:14:04< siddh> I'll actually use pretty much the thing from under the burning suns, but gotta test that first to see if the Debug msg returns different answer
20130602 21:14:26< siddh> also if i wanted to filter for zoc in the filter, how would I do that? can you just do [filter]zoc=no[/filter] for an example? :D
20130602 21:14:42< siddh> with [not] tags that is
20130602 21:16:43< bumbadadabum> it
20130602 21:16:51< bumbadadabum> needs to be in a [filter_wml]
20130602 21:16:59< bumbadadabum> IIRC
20130602 21:18:49< siddh> kk
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20130602 21:21:54< siddh> I tried the bit from UtBS and it works perfectly.. :d
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20130602 21:41:32< siddh> sry for having all these questions all the time but I wanted to create this ability that gives units stealth dependent on how many movement points they have left, for an example I wanted to give Ninja's a nightstalk that works only while they have full mps
20130602 21:42:54< siddh> so I thought that'd work if I'd filter for mps in an ability with [hides] is it possible like [filter_wml] moves, or so? I think I should try something along those lines
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20130602 21:49:20< siddh> hmm is there a way to trigger event when something is healed? like directly by choosing an event name?
20130602 21:49:43< siddh> or does it have to be like "filter for the conditions in which a heal would occur"
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20130602 22:00:17< celticminstrel> There are cases where you don't put the $ on variables, and modifying the variable is one of those caes.
20130602 22:00:19< celticminstrel> ^cases
20130602 22:00:34< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if you resolved that problem, but... putting that out there.
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20130602 22:06:07< siddh> actually I didn't, but I basically copied the similar ability from UtBS 
20130602 22:08:43< siddh> anyway I dont know how to do that properly :D
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20130602 22:09:34< celticminstrel> Well, in {VARIABLE_OP var plus 3}, you don't need a $ in front of var, but if 3 is replaced by a variable then you need the $.
20130602 22:09:53< celticminstrel> (That may not actually be correct syntax, but the basic idea applies still.)
20130602 22:14:43< siddh> kk
20130602 22:17:00< celticminstrel> You can put a $ in front of var, but that means you're assigning to a variable whose name is the contents of $var.
20130602 22:17:37< celticminstrel> So if $var contains the string "hello", then you're assigning to a variable called $hello.
20130602 22:17:44< celticminstrel> Typically not what you want!
20130602 22:17:50< celticminstrel> Though sometimes it can be useful.
20130602 22:21:01< siddh> yea I think I got the part here so for an example {VARIABLE_OP $beach $beach_boy} would create a variable named as the contents of $beach, and it would have the contents of the contents of $beach_boy ? :D
20130602 22:21:03< shadowm> ("plus" is not a working second argument for VARIABLE_OP.)
20130602 22:21:36< siddh> somehow I get the feeling that a lot of these commands are like case-specific, which makes it very troublesome to learn how this works 
20130602 22:21:49< siddh> :D
20130602 22:22:10< shadowm> Hence conventions exist. Macro and macro parameter names are always uppercase, everything else is lowercase.
20130602 22:22:37< siddh> I didn't mean uppercase or lowercase specific, xD
20130602 22:22:41< shadowm> Except for such thigs as singular unit ids and unit type ids.
20130602 22:22:48< shadowm> Right.
20130602 22:23:04< siddh> and i didnt realize it could be interpreted that way too :D
20130602 22:23:37< siddh> hmm although it's more normal to use "case-sensitive" for that meaning?
20130602 22:24:26< shadowm> People occasionally come up with creative ways to describe the same concept.
20130602 22:25:11< siddh> yea
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20130602 22:31:24< siddh> ahh I'm having creative problems :D Trying to sketch up this faction for an era which has a mage theme 
20130602 22:31:42< siddh> and can't come up with a composition or ideas 
20130602 22:32:58< siddh> any suggestions? :D
20130602 22:34:21< celticminstrel> No, it would have the contents of $beach_joy...
20130602 22:35:57< siddh> huh? :D
20130602 22:36:29< celticminstrel> You're VARIABLE_OP example.
20130602 22:36:31< celticminstrel> ^Your
20130602 22:36:39< celticminstrel> Why did I put an apostrophe there. ><
20130602 22:36:59< celticminstrel> It wouldn't have the contents of the contents of $beach_joy as far as I know...
20130602 22:37:40-!- diffycat [~diffycat@85.113.55.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20130602 22:37:46< celticminstrel> I could be mistaken... might depend on how the macro is defined...
20130602 22:38:35< siddh> I'm confused
20130602 22:38:36< siddh> :D
20130602 22:38:50< celticminstrel> [Jun 02@4:21:01pm] siddh: yea I think I got the part here so for an example {VARIABLE_OP $beach $beach_boy} would create a variable named as the contents of $beach, and it would have the contents of the contents of $beach_boy ?
20130602 22:38:51< siddh> hmm next up I think I'm gonna make a bleed ability
20130602 22:38:56< celticminstrel> I was responding to that.
20130602 22:39:23< siddh> yes but I spelled it as "boy" not "joy" and then you said It would have and then it wouldnt have and so
20130602 22:39:41< celticminstrel> Yeah, just blame that on reading fail.
20130602 22:40:00< celticminstrel> It's been some time since I did WML stuff. <_<
20130602 22:40:11< celticminstrel> So I don't quite remember some things.
20130602 22:40:16< siddh> btw got any suggestions for a "mage" faction
20130602 22:40:34< celticminstrel> What are the other factions?
20130602 22:40:59< siddh> samurai faction, 2 vampire factions, 1 dwarven faction, 1 faction called chandzin creed, it's sort of a military/indian combination 
20130602 22:41:21< siddh> this one is called "Sublime Cabinet" I've only 1 unit in mind and am juggling around wiht a couple of abilities
20130602 22:41:47< celticminstrel> ...why do you need two vampires?
20130602 22:41:48< siddh> but if mages are "weak physically, but have interesting abilities" I'm, not sure what I*m going to combine them with, or what the set of mages is like
20130602 22:42:04< celticminstrel> And by Indian do you mean Indian or American?
20130602 22:42:07< siddh> well basically they're not really vamire factions
20130602 22:42:19< siddh> I mean like American natives xD
20130602 22:42:26< siddh> Sioux and such
20130602 22:42:28< celticminstrel> Those are not Indians. <_<
20130602 22:42:34< siddh> so what's the proper term?
20130602 22:42:40< celticminstrel> Not sure.
20130602 22:42:47< celticminstrel> Native American, maybe?
20130602 22:42:49< siddh> in finnish they're called "Intiaanit" which is distinct from "Intialaiset"
20130602 22:43:02< siddh> although the base of the word is "Intia" which is India
20130602 22:43:12< celticminstrel> Eh.
20130602 22:43:23< siddh> "Intialaiset" refers to Indians as in people from India
20130602 22:43:27< celticminstrel> At the very least, you should say "American Indian".
20130602 22:43:44< siddh> thep oint is it's natural to call them "Indians" for a finnish person trying to call them something, because the translated version we use is distinct
20130602 22:43:53< celticminstrel> Other terms used are "Native American" or "First Nations", the latter generally only for Canadian ones.
20130602 22:44:31< celticminstrel> ...probably "First Nations People", in this context.
20130602 22:44:37< siddh> kk 
20130602 22:44:39< celticminstrel> But that's a Canadian term, so...
20130602 22:44:46< siddh> so you're from Canada?
20130602 22:44:49< siddh> or States?
20130602 22:45:13< celticminstrel> I think "Native American" is safest.
20130602 22:46:06< siddh> anyhow the vampire factions are kind of like 
20130602 22:46:24< siddh> they're like if Wose would be the key unit of Rebels, then Rebels would be called Wose faction - kind of vampire factions
20130602 22:46:32< siddh> there's only 2 vampire units in the 1st faction and 3 in the second
20130602 22:46:39< siddh> while both total +10 units
20130602 22:47:08< siddh> 16 and 13 :D
20130602 22:47:29< siddh> oh 
20130602 22:47:30< celticminstrel> So... a mage faction called "Sublime Creed".
20130602 22:47:34< siddh> and there's a ranger faction
20130602 22:47:38< celticminstrel> ...
20130602 22:47:40< siddh> no it's "Sublime Cabinet" :D
20130602 22:47:49< celticminstrel> Right, got the two mixed up. <_<
20130602 22:47:56< siddh> there's only 1 unit planned
20130602 22:48:01< siddh> it's called "witness orb"
20130602 22:48:11< siddh> it will have no attacking abilities, but it's a very good scouting unit
20130602 22:48:26< siddh> no upkeep, has nightstalk and daystalk, or in a not so bad sounding way to phrase- are visible in dusk/dawn
20130602 22:48:36< celticminstrel> Is it capable of defending itself?
20130602 22:48:44< siddh> probably not I'm not decided on that
20130602 22:49:09< siddh> anyhow the basic unit profiles are changed in this era
20130602 22:49:14< siddh> cavalry moves 5-6 on flat
20130602 22:49:16< siddh> flyers move 4-5 
20130602 22:49:20< siddh> and infantry moves 4-5 
20130602 22:49:29< siddh> base movement cost on flat for infantry is 3 points
20130602 22:49:31< siddh> cavalry 2 points
20130602 22:49:33< siddh> and flyers 1 point
20130602 22:49:33< celticminstrel> So you want mage-type units...
20130602 22:49:40< siddh> yea I'm kind of lacking an idea
20130602 22:49:52< siddh> like what do I combine the mages with? and what are they about?
20130602 22:49:58< celticminstrel> Ranged ones could be things like elemental mages (ice, fire, maybe lightning)...
20130602 22:50:11< celticminstrel> Close-range types might use magic swords or something.
20130602 22:50:12< siddh> yea ithought about that there could be an elementalist type unit
20130602 22:50:24< siddh> since cold,fire and lightning are all damage types used in the era
20130602 22:50:47< siddh> yea that's possible too
20130602 22:50:59< celticminstrel> Lightning typically deals fire damage, as I recall.
20130602 22:51:08< siddh> yea but I added a lightning type to this era
20130602 22:51:12< celticminstrel> Right.
20130602 22:51:22< celticminstrel> I was about to say I think that's possible. >_>
20130602 22:51:28< siddh> I also added holy, unholy, impale, shadow
20130602 22:51:49< celticminstrel> Maybe call it shock instead of lightning? Mostly just because it's shorter... >_> ...maybe I'm just being silly...
20130602 22:52:00< siddh> so there's 4 physical damage types + 6 magical + shadow
20130602 22:52:08< celticminstrel> How is impale different from pierce? It sounds the same to me.
20130602 22:52:14< siddh> it is basically the same
20130602 22:52:20< celticminstrel> Then why do you need both?
20130602 22:52:27< siddh> the "logical" explanation is impale is piercing damage delivered with momentum
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20130602 22:52:35< siddh> while piercing damage is without mass 
20130602 22:52:38< celticminstrel> What are the normal three physical types, again?
20130602 22:52:41< siddh> but the function in terms of dynamics are
20130602 22:52:44< siddh> pierce, impact, blade
20130602 22:52:49< celticminstrel> Ah, right.
20130602 22:52:55< siddh> is to make cavalry resistant to piercing for starters
20130602 22:53:01< siddh> and also to differentiate spears from arrows
20130602 22:53:07< celticminstrel> Ah, I see.
20130602 22:53:08< siddh> and make spears good vs cavalry, arrows bad vs cavalry
20130602 22:53:26< siddh> arrows good vs infantry, except if they're heavily armoured, in which case they're not
20130602 22:53:33< siddh> there's also ability called "shield"
20130602 22:53:41< siddh> which gives units +30piercing +15 impale,blade,impact in ranged combat
20130602 22:53:50< siddh> so that only applies to ranged attacks, which mostly means piercing from arrows
20130602 22:54:03< siddh> there's a couple of exceptions though, huntress has thrown spear
20130602 22:54:05< celticminstrel> I would expect a ballista to deal impale damage, then.
20130602 22:54:12< siddh> chadzin strongbow has a crossbow which does impale dmg
20130602 22:54:22< siddh> yea that would be the casei f there was one
20130602 22:54:24< celticminstrel> Just theoretically speaking... and I see you have precedent for it too.
20130602 22:54:34< celticminstrel> Since a ballista is basically a massive crossbow.
20130602 22:54:37< siddh> yeah
20130602 22:54:38< siddh> :D
20130602 22:54:55< siddh> I also came up with special ability called "electrocute"
20130602 22:55:07< siddh> well with hte help of wml workshop forums people
20130602 22:55:12< celticminstrel> I think I recall making an ability with a similar name...
20130602 22:55:15< siddh> it does extra lightning damage per hit
20130602 22:55:26< siddh> so there's a unit called "dwarf stormhammer"
20130602 22:55:49< siddh> which has both thrown hammers and melee hammers, which have electrocute ability, so basically the unit attacks with impact and lightning damagetypes simultaneously
20130602 22:55:57< siddh> this method could be used to combine blade+impact for an example
20130602 22:56:01< celticminstrel> "This unit has an electric attack which, if it hits an enemy unit, will halve that unit's movement at the beginning of its next turn."
20130602 22:56:17< celticminstrel> ^the description of the aforementioned ability
20130602 22:56:18< siddh> but it's not very polished, right now it needs to have experience=yes set to "no" and a macro for XP incase the unit dies created
20130602 22:56:26< siddh> but im not going so deep into an ability that kind of works 
20130602 22:56:35< siddh> :D
20130602 22:56:42< siddh>  igot here some ideas 
20130602 22:56:44< celticminstrel> You can do that some other time when you get everything else working. :P
20130602 22:56:50< siddh> "mind control" allows moving the unit but not attacking with it
20130602 22:57:08< siddh> "paralysis" which makes the unit immoble and incapable of attacking + another variant of it where the unit cant be attacked either
20130602 22:57:24< celticminstrel> I believe the latter exists in core.
20130602 22:57:24< siddh> then "vacuum" which makes flyers unable to move on their next turn:D
20130602 22:57:31< celticminstrel> What was it called again...
20130602 22:57:35< celticminstrel> "petrified"?
20130602 22:57:43< siddh> hmm yea that could be used to do it
20130602 22:57:49< siddh> petrify for a turn = same effect
20130602 22:58:01< celticminstrel> The one where they can't be attacked, yes.
20130602 22:58:11< siddh> chain lightning :D hits next adjacent target with lowest lightning resistance :D
20130602 22:58:17< celticminstrel> But petrification doesn't wear off.
20130602 22:58:25< siddh> sandstorm, does more damage on sands, cant be used on water D:
20130602 22:58:43< siddh> then all kinds of damage auras, so when unit gets attacked, the aura hits the attacker
20130602 22:58:52< celticminstrel> Sounds like you have a lot of stuff that could be useful for a mage-based faction. :P
20130602 22:58:58< siddh> yea that's what these are 
20130602 22:59:04< siddh> but I can come up with anything
20130602 22:59:08< siddh> I mean probably not gonna use most of this :D
20130602 22:59:11< celticminstrel> Can't come up with what?
20130602 22:59:17< siddh> the idea of the faction
20130602 22:59:26< siddh> like mages + what? what's the dynamic ? how does this faction worK?
20130602 22:59:27< celticminstrel> You have abilities but aren't sure how to apply them to units?
20130602 22:59:36< siddh> and also theme of the mages.. like what are these mages about? what kind of names will they have?
20130602 22:59:44< siddh> no it's like
20130602 22:59:48< siddh> I cant just make all mages
20130602 22:59:51< siddh> or if I do
20130602 22:59:53< celticminstrel> Does it need to be mages + something? Can it not be pure mages? Why not?
20130602 23:00:00< siddh> how does it work? how do they win? what's their weakness?
20130602 23:00:14< siddh> all the factions in this era have like ~14 units 
20130602 23:00:15< celticminstrel> I suppose there's the issue that giving everyone a magic attack might be a bit much, though...
20130602 23:00:30< siddh> except rangers whic have onl 11 i think
20130602 23:01:19< siddh> yea I dont have magical attacks on most spells anyway :D
20130602 23:01:27< siddh> however 1 ability i am going include in this mage faction
20130602 23:01:39< siddh> I made a post on wml workshop about it coz i cant do it as of now
20130602 23:01:44< siddh> it's scuh that it always hits
20130602 23:01:51< siddh> but damage is reduced based on targets defense and/or resistance
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20130602 23:01:59< siddh> I'm not sure how I'm going to scale that
20130602 23:02:04< celticminstrel> What's "scuh"?
20130602 23:02:07< siddh> *such
20130602 23:02:08< celticminstrel> Oh, such.
20130602 23:02:22< siddh> the theme there is "knowledge"
20130602 23:02:23< celticminstrel> Dunno...
20130602 23:02:26< siddh> you know what's gonna happen
20130602 23:02:30< siddh> same with the "witness orb"
20130602 23:02:35< siddh> you got a pretty good scout
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20130602 23:03:03< siddh> paralysis fits the theme considerably well
20130602 23:03:23< siddh> so it's a strong candidate to be included
20130602 23:03:27< siddh> although very powerful
20130602 23:03:37< siddh> so it would need to be applied on an expensive unit
20130602 23:03:50< siddh> but i was also thinking of a system with
20130602 23:03:55< siddh> chance of success is based on arcane resistance
20130602 23:04:24< siddh> something like square root of damage taken
20130602 23:04:49< siddh> like if opponent has 0% arcane, then chance is 100%. if they have 20% arcane, chance is 64%
20130602 23:04:54< siddh> etc
20130602 23:05:07< siddh> oh and then i was thinkin about this
20130602 23:05:13< siddh> attack which reduces the targets resistance
20130602 23:05:18< siddh> kind of utility suppotr for the mages
20130602 23:05:36< siddh> so you've this other unit which reduces resistances, and then you have mages which hit for higher dmg
20130602 23:05:46< siddh> rant
20130602 23:05:47< siddh> ramble
20130602 23:05:48< siddh> :D
20130602 23:06:23< celticminstrel> Rather than applying paralysis merely to an expensive unit, you could put it only on a level 2 or 3 unit.
20130602 23:06:47< siddh> yea I also changed the unit level style in this era
20130602 23:06:54< siddh> so basically you've the abilities available on level1 units
20130602 23:07:00< siddh> coz it's multiplayer oriented
20130602 23:07:10< siddh> also i was thinking abou changing the level-up style
20130602 23:07:12< celticminstrel> ...what?
20130602 23:07:19< siddh> so you dont get full heals
20130602 23:07:34< celticminstrel> So are you saying that units don't level up?
20130602 23:07:38< siddh> no 
20130602 23:07:45< siddh> but instead that it's playable with level1 units
20130602 23:07:49< siddh> and making the level2 units comes later
20130602 23:07:58< siddh> however i was thinking about including this extra level1 step
20130602 23:08:02 * celticminstrel is confused, but whatever.
20130602 23:08:12< siddh> like level 1 unit levels nito -> level 1 + veteran ability -> level 2 unit
20130602 23:08:20< siddh> ok I'll put it clearly
20130602 23:08:22< celticminstrel> My point is, you don't have to use all the abilities you have on level 1 units.
20130602 23:08:45< siddh> I'm trying to design the era so that all the interesting abilities are available on level1 units , or units which are recruitable directly
20130602 23:09:12< celticminstrel> Okay, whatever you want.
20130602 23:09:19< siddh> and that the core mechanics of the era should be based on how recruitable units play against other recruitable units, and level2 units are just extra
20130602 23:09:32< siddh> however i got 2 directly recruitable level2 units
20130602 23:09:37< siddh> vampire called Cabal Matriarch
20130602 23:09:43< siddh> and Vampire Necromancer on hte other vamp faction
20130602 23:10:01< siddh> level2 is a disadvantage 
20130602 23:10:19< siddh> the unit would of course be stronger if it had level1 instead
20130602 23:10:52< siddh> you should check it out 
20130602 23:10:56< siddh> if you're using 1.10?
20130602 23:12:42< celticminstrel> Hm?
20130602 23:13:12< siddh> the era that is
20130602 23:13:21< siddh> work in progress but downloadable from add-ons server
20130602 23:13:23< celticminstrel> Eh.
20130602 23:13:32< siddh> oh you mean the level?
20130602 23:13:42< siddh> well there are some abilities, which make higher level an advantage
20130602 23:13:54< siddh> but in majority of all instances, level is a disadvantage
20130602 23:14:03< siddh> for an example if you have level2, you dont get leadership bonus
20130602 23:14:13< siddh> if you have level2, opponent gains 2 xp from atatcking your unit
20130602 23:14:15< siddh> and 16xp from killing it
20130602 23:14:20< siddh> these are not advantages, but serious disadvantages
20130602 23:14:42< siddh> the exceptions to this are, abilities which opponent has which reduce your unit's strength
20130602 23:14:49< siddh> in a manner that is level based and diminished for higher levels
20130602 23:15:10< siddh> ..of course level 2 units are better on average
20130602 23:15:14< siddh> but when you design a unit 
20130602 23:15:25< siddh> and decide "level2? level1?" it's best to realize level2 is a way to make it weaker
20130602 23:15:28< siddh> oh and i forgot, upkeep..
20130602 23:16:07< celticminstrel> ...I don't think that's what "weaker" means.
20130602 23:16:30< celticminstrel> The unit is stronger, so you make it higher level to offset that, but that doesn't make the unit weaker.
20130602 23:16:37< siddh> you're incorrect
20130602 23:16:55< celticminstrel> The amount of XP an enemy gains from your unit has nothing to do with your unit's strength.
20130602 23:17:01< siddh> of course it does
20130602 23:17:04< celticminstrel> Nope.
20130602 23:17:09< siddh> in multiplayer at least 
20130602 23:17:13< siddh> maybe not in campaigns
20130602 23:17:18< celticminstrel> The lack of leadership bonus... okay, that one does have to do with its strength.
20130602 23:17:32< celticminstrel> Upkeep has nothing to do with its strength.
20130602 23:17:41< siddh> ...:D
20130602 23:17:49< siddh> I take it you dont play multiplayer, like ladder games?
20130602 23:17:55< celticminstrel> Taking a unit and increasing its level but leaving everything else unchanged does not make it a weaker unit.
20130602 23:18:17< siddh> it does. however since you sound very stubborn, I dont want to argue in a "yes no" manner
20130602 23:18:24< celticminstrel> How is that weaker?
20130602 23:18:42< siddh> it makes your chances of defeating your opponent smaller, and and chances of losing bigger by using this unit
20130602 23:18:47< celticminstrel> It still deals the same damage and takes the same damage.
20130602 23:18:53< siddh> it also increases your opponents advantage when fighting this specific unit
20130602 23:19:00< siddh> ok so 
20130602 23:19:08< celticminstrel> Sure, but that's nothing to do with the individual unit's strength.
20130602 23:19:09< siddh> we're talking about what's the "definition of weaker"
20130602 23:19:13< celticminstrel> Perhaps.
20130602 23:19:15< siddh> ok ok
20130602 23:19:28< siddh> we're not really disagreeing, we're just using a different word to refer to the same thing
20130602 23:19:36< celticminstrel> Okay then.
20130602 23:25:40< siddh> hum :o
20130602 23:27:20< siddh> gotta make a bleed ability :D
20130602 23:27:32< siddh> one that makes the unit lose ~3 hp per turn, for each bleed
20130602 23:27:51< siddh> so you have a variable "bleeds" on the unit and if it has bleeds=3 it takes 9 damage
20130602 23:28:31< siddh> then add this to say wolves or some similar unit, so that each hit adds a bleed
20130602 23:28:35< siddh> maybe with a chance
20130602 23:28:52< siddh> and on turn refresh 1 bleed is redced
20130602 23:32:20< siddh> hmm I think I'm gonna add an ability to a ghoul that 
20130602 23:32:28< siddh> when the ghoul dies, it poisons all adjacent units, allied or enemy :D
20130602 23:32:49< siddh> but that does mean adding undead faction xD
20130602 23:34:33< celticminstrel> Unless you can justify the ghoul in some other faction. Vampires maybe.
20130602 23:36:18< siddh> yea they got "ghoul servants" 
20130602 23:36:28< siddh> which regenerate, and got "minion" ability
20130602 23:36:46< siddh> but they're not the same kind of ghouls i guess
20130602 23:38:30< siddh> but anyway the point about putting the "paralysis" ability on an expensive unit is that
20130602 23:38:57< siddh> you're basically taking 2 units out of the game for a turn, 1 that paralyzes, and the other 1 that is paralyzed
20130602 23:39:21< siddh> so for an example if you have the ability on a 10 gold unit, adn you paralyze a 20 gold unit, then you're being more gold-effective in addition to just getting a huge tactical advantage
20130602 23:39:36< siddh> meanwhile if you have it on a 30 gold nuit, and paralyze a 10 gold unit, that's not the case
20130602 23:41:35< siddh> scaling the chance of success vs some resistance type creates a profile for the abilitys use
20130602 23:45:33< siddh> well gotta go to sleep, good night
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 03 00:00:58 2013