--- Log opened Tue Aug 20 00:00:08 2013
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20130820 04:06:18< irker797> wesnoth: Groggy Dice wesnoth-old:master 6cf03fe82737 / data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: fix wmltools' parse_attribute to not consider pango color hashes as a comment http://git.io/K8_gKg
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20130820 09:14:24< tomreyn> do you provide OS X builds and if so, how (in terms of hardware + licensing + virtualization, if any + costs involved)?
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20130820 09:28:43< LordBob_> tomreyn: builds of what ? The core game ?
20130820 09:31:26< tomreyn> LordBob_: yeah
20130820 09:33:54< LordBob_> tomreyn: aside from the Stable and Dev OS X builds available on wesnoth.org, some of us do work on Mac, so yeah, it's easy enough to obtain one
20130820 09:35:05< tomreyn> so some of the developers own the hardware already and use it (their desktops probably) to build there?
20130820 09:35:20< LordBob_> Yup
20130820 09:35:59< LordBob_> I do, and there are at least 4 other mac users among the regular devs, I think
20130820 09:36:01< tomreyn> okay, so we're just out of luck there i guess. how many developers do you have there anyways, like those touching the main code.
20130820 09:37:15< LordBob_> Hmmm... That's a difficult question for me, because I don't hang around often enough to tell, and the team hos gotten quite large over the years
20130820 09:37:34< LordBob_> Why do you ask ?
20130820 09:41:16< tomreyn> i'm trying to get an idea of how many it would take to get the quality you provide, and how much we'd have to grow to achieve it (assuming growing alone would provide this, which is, of course, not the case), and how much growth it would take to have some developer who owns mac hardware onboard (just a very rough approximation there, too).
20130820 09:44:22< lipkab2> tomreyn: Cca. 15 people.
20130820 09:46:24< LordBob_> tomreyn: in the case of Wesnoth, I think it's not only a question of "how many", but also "how long". The game has been around for a decade.
20130820 09:48:32< tomreyn> well megaglest has 10 years on it, too, but always had a smaller team, and there were breaks.
20130820 09:49:07< tomreyn> but yeah, # of developers is just one factor really, of course
20130820 09:49:52< tomreyn> anyways, thanks.
20130820 09:53:58< tomreyn> can we also discuss donations (only if you don't mind)? i'd like to get an idea as to whether we could possibly get a lot more donations if we were to ask for them more.
20130820 09:55:04< vultraz> LordBob_!
20130820 09:55:32< LordBob_> tomreyn: not with me at least, as I don't know the numbers
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20130820 09:55:43< LordBob_> Hello vultraz !
20130820 09:56:04< tomreyn> okay, those numbers aren't public, right?
20130820 09:56:34< LordBob_> No idea :s
20130820 09:58:25< timotei21> tomreyn, IIRC noy handles the financial/legal organisation. He might help you in that regard :)
20130820 09:59:58< tomreyn> i wasn't aware you even have a legal org, what do you use it for?
20130820 10:00:18< tomreyn> i guess i should discuss this with him, too...
20130820 10:00:24< tomreyn> him/her
20130820 10:04:09< LordBob_> vultraz: do you know if there has been change on the UI front while I was absent ?
20130820 10:05:03< vultraz> LordBob_: AFAIK it all stopped when you left, save for zookeeper's maps
20130820 10:05:42< LordBob_> Aw. Time to kick it all back to work, then ^^
20130820 10:06:59< vultraz> really hoping for a working unitbox theme soon
20130820 10:07:44< LordBob_> I have less time on my hands these days, but I'll use the evenings to wrap it up, yeah.
20130820 10:11:08< LordBob_> Speaking of unitbox... fabi, are you around?
20130820 10:19:04< shadowm> tomreyn: git log identifies nearly 161 unique authors across all branches of the main repository. These are just the people with commit access (a substantial number of them are coders, but some are artists or translators) or those who have got pull requests merged since we converted to Git in April this year. In particular, this count does not consider the huge number of artists, translators, one-time contributors, WML coders, ...
20130820 10:19:10< shadowm> ... and musicians whose contributions have landed in mainline over the years.
20130820 10:21:18< tomreyn> thanks for the stats shadowm 
20130820 10:21:30< shadowm> We do not currently accept donations outside of Flattr. Long ago people had the option to send donations directly to the project founder, with the caveat that their contributions would not necessarily be used for the project.
20130820 10:21:47< tomreyn> i was indeed primariyl interested in regular contributors to the engine code
20130820 10:21:49< shadowm> (Which was properly explained in the donations page.)
20130820 10:22:24< tomreyn> that is an interesting caveat :)
20130820 10:23:07< tomreyn> so do you get donations through flattr? and on a regular basis? and can you discuss how much (roughly)?
20130820 10:23:30< tomreyn> also have you done some crowd funding?
20130820 10:25:12< shadowm> I do not handle numbers or fully accurate information on the matter (noy does), but the project's primary funding nowadays comes from the iOS port's sales on Apple's appstore, plus the amount paid by Google to mentoring organizations like us participating in their Summer of Code program, which takes place once every year. Wesnoth has been a regular GSoC mentoring organization since 2008. The funds are used to support our primary ...
20130820 10:25:18< shadowm> ... server hosting and some occasional art commissions.
20130820 10:25:26< shadowm> As for how much we get through Flattr, I don't handle that information either.
20130820 10:26:59< shadowm> We do not have paid coders outside of the GSoC program, which is handled directly by Google (see http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/help_page for details).
20130820 10:27:04< tomreyn> oh right gsoc. that's not that much (500 USD / student i think), but i guess this can be sufficient to pay for the hosting
20130820 10:27:30< shadowm> We do not have any other permanently paid staff either.
20130820 10:27:57< shadowm> So, yeah, aside from the aforementioned exceptions, it's all volunteer-driven.
20130820 10:28:05< tomreyn> that's good, i feel it would be bad to have any, it spoils open source projects.
20130820 10:28:31< tomreyn> that's unless when everyone is paid evenly, i guess that can work
20130820 10:29:06< tomreyn> (but it's still a difficult topic then, also finding out who is everyone, and who not)
20130820 10:30:03< tomreyn> did you do the iOS port yourself then? is this not problematic in terms of licensing?
20130820 10:30:43< tomreyn> i mean itunes TOS and your licenses could have compatibility issues (not sure)
20130820 10:31:39< lipkab2> Since we did not make the port, that's not our business.
20130820 10:31:41< shadowm> The iOS port was actually contributed by a third party. An agreement was reached with them so a percentage of money (again, I don't have exact numbers) from the sales is sent to Wesnoth.
20130820 10:32:01< lipkab2> We just pocket the moneys.
20130820 10:33:47< shadowm> The official Windows and Mac OS X builds (which, unlike the iOS port, come from the mainline codebase without any external modifications) are provided by two of our team members, who have access to and regularly work with systems running the target operating systems natively.
20130820 10:34:01< tomreyn> i see. it's not my business either. and you probably considered whether by having this agreement you might legally acknowledge this third parties' doings.
20130820 10:34:18< shadowm> (Until 2009 or so, the Windows and Mac OS X builds were contributed by regular members of the community instead.)
20130820 10:35:25< tomreyn> nice, so contributor's builds
20130820 10:36:38< tomreyn> we actually have jenkins running and some build VMs, linux32, linux 64, an arm linux box and now a windows 8.1 preview because we can't afford a license from donations, yet)
20130820 10:37:13< tomreyn> that's running on donated hosting, though
20130820 10:37:38< tomreyn> so this just doesn'T vocer OS x, so i was wondering how other projects handle it.
20130820 10:38:32< tomreyn> http://virtualmacosx.com/index.php/xcode-plans and http://www.xcodeclub.com/ looks like it might work, but i guess the price tag, even though it's low, would still be too high (unless shared with other projects)
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20130820 11:08:26< timotei21> tomreyn, There is also this: http://www.macincloud.com/
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20130820 11:10:20< tomreyn> thanks timotei21 
20130820 11:10:37< tomreyn> i also came across http://www.macminicloud.net/ but this seems a little expensive
20130820 11:11:27< tomreyn> (and the price calculation is weird)
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20130820 15:39:30< vultraz> LordBob_: so, what remainds for the unibox?
20130820 15:40:10< LordBob_> Err...everything ? :p
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20130820 15:42:37< LordBob_> vultraz: on the art front, I need to produce the terrain overlays and the icons for traits / abilities etc.
20130820 15:43:33< LordBob_> but beyond that, I don't think we have completely adjusted how the display will work.
20130820 15:44:11< LordBob_> at least, I'm a bit unsure where we stand on that, and so would need a chat with fabi in order to refresh my memories
20130820 15:44:12< vultraz> right, we were still throwing around concepts
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20130820 15:46:22 * vultraz decides to wait for fabi and instead experiments with digital painting
20130820 15:56:09< LordBob_> vultraz: did you buy that digital tablet, in the end?
20130820 15:56:34< vultraz> not yet, no
20130820 15:56:51< LordBob_> So you're painting with a mouse?
20130820 15:57:57< vultraz> yes
20130820 15:58:11< LordBob_> Ouch. Bon courage :p
20130820 15:59:11< LordBob_> Speaking of painting, I'm not only working on the unitbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q1q57jtba8umme7/trolls-troll_whelp.jpg   https://www.dropbox.com/s/05xuvdr8duvve06/trolls-troll.jpg
20130820 15:59:18< vultraz> right now it's just blotches of color
20130820 16:01:57< vultraz> nice trolls
20130820 16:07:45< vultraz> any wraiths?
20130820 16:07:47< vultraz> :D
20130820 16:08:04< LordBob_> Not yet, but he'll be part of that batch too
20130820 16:08:11< zookeeper> cool
20130820 16:08:18< zookeeper> new whelp?
20130820 16:13:48< LordBob_> zookeeper: yup. I've been itching to replace the old whelp and troll for a while; since a full troll set would help in the portfolio area, now's a good time to tackle them
20130820 16:14:24< vultraz> https://www.dropbox.com/s/202fwbs1vqdgjyx/thisisnotapainting.png
20130820 16:14:36< vultraz> I have no idea what I just drew :P
20130820 16:15:05< zookeeper> it's a biomechanical pokemon
20130820 16:16:19< LordBob_> Or one of those fancy manga armor parts
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20130820 16:16:59< vultraz> it's supposed to be a painted version of the pixel dragon head, but it looks too...colorful :P
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20130820 16:37:44 * vultraz goes hunting for metal turotial ala lordbob
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20130820 17:38:16< thunderstruck> fabi: Hello.
20130820 17:42:08< thunderstruck> fabi: Could you look at the draft for proposed changes to multiplayer WML in order to properly display things in mp::connect?
20130820 17:42:18< thunderstruck> fabi: Draft is here http://pastebin.com/8DgPsh76.
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20130820 19:59:37< mordante> servus
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20130820 20:40:08< Ivanovic> mordante: any news about the pandora build and what might be wrong there?
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20130820 20:40:25< Ivanovic> the last time i am 100% sure everything worked was with 1.11.4 (i forgot to build for 1.11.5)
20130820 20:43:40< mordante> Ivanovic, no not really debugging it is hard, I'm tempted to bi-sect instead
20130820 20:44:04< mordante> not being able to place break-points is nasty
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20130820 21:44:42< mordante> Ivanovic, are you sure 1.11.4 worked? It fails for my emulator
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20130820 22:04:51< mordante> I'm off now, bye
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 21 00:00:13 2013