--- Log opened Wed Aug 21 00:00:13 2013
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20130821 00:08:09< irker822> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 5b72fe99a50b / changelog data/core/macros/interface-utils.cfg: Ensure complete darkness after FADE_TO_BLACK and FADE_TO_BLACK_HOLD http://git.io/sFkFTg
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20130821 00:25:38< irker822> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master cc26e1054a89 / changelog src/scripting/lua.cpp: Add scroll_to_leader field to wesnoth.sides table elements http://git.io/OJKaPQ
20130821 00:25:41< irker822> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 74915e33bf1e / changelog data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Add scroll_to_leader field to the [store_side] WML action http://git.io/REwxXA
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20130821 00:34:28< irker822> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 99df0ed8311e / changelog src/scripting/lua.cpp: Make wesnoth.sides[n].scroll_to_leader RW instead of RO http://git.io/FaGCaA
20130821 00:34:46< shadowm> Why are most of these fields RO when they can be safely altered with the C++ [modify_side] action already?
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20130821 00:37:47< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#447 (master - 5b72fe9 : Ignacio R. Morelle): The build has errored.
20130821 00:37:47< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/10428715
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20130821 00:40:20< shadowm> Pretty sure it's not my fault that build got stuck during the package install phase.
20130821 00:40:40< shadowm> It's not very robust.
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20130821 10:37:35< shadowm> Can anyone connect to the 1.11.x add-ons server with the in-game client?
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20130821 10:39:46< irker083> wesnoth: Groggy Dice wesnoth-old:master d3bb9515483a / data/tools/wmllint: check for textdomain paths without '/translations', and binary paths referring t http://git.io/jak1Tg
20130821 10:40:39< shadowm> Hm, okay, seems there's something broken at my end then.
20130821 10:40:57< shadowm> And it's being misidentified as a WML error in campaign'd output for some reason?
20130821 10:41:02< shadowm> *campaignd's
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20130821 10:42:02< shadowm> Note to self: broken local .pbl -> game claiming there's an error in the campaignd response document when there actually isn't any such.
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20130821 11:41:35< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 91e6c8bf8f94 / src/umcd/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Add the configuration of the server inside a monostate object (server_connexion) http://git.io/wFEeYg
20130821 11:41:37< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 930e3631fcd0 / src/umcd/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Rename server_connexion to server_core, because it not only contains connexion i http://git.io/iA6s1g
20130821 11:41:39< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd f9bc9278dba5 / src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): :Merge branch 'asio_umcd' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old into asio_um http://git.io/CDeFRQ
20130821 11:41:41< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd fe8df9e2dd3f / src/CMakeLists.txt: CMake: Prevents g++ error with Wno-useless-cast. http://git.io/75dCkQ
20130821 11:41:43< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 45fae67ef06f / src/umcd/otl/otl.hpp: Only use UNIX ODBC on Unix system. http://git.io/R_6kPg
20130821 11:41:45< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 6e90908bb9f7 / src/CMakeLists.txt: Merge branch 'asio_umcd' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old into asio_umc http://git.io/fSXr2A
20130821 11:41:47< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 4ddb5b48d317 / / (18 files in 7 dirs): Instead of using the wesnoth_dir from the config, use it from the monostate clas http://git.io/pU7WKA
20130821 11:41:49< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd ce346ee67334 / / (10 files in 3 dirs): The logger is now loaded via the monostate class logging_info. http://git.io/9NQN8Q
20130821 11:41:51< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 4de3c89dd038 / src/umcd/ (umcd_logger.cpp umcd_logger.hpp): Move the definition of the logger method inside the cpp. http://git.io/pn0-JQ
20130821 11:41:53< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd f1827d8cbf56 / data/umcd/database/populate_database.sql: Add a sql script to populate the database. http://git.io/wQR5FA
20130821 11:41:55< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 2d78aee641e9 / src/ (13 files in 6 dirs): Move the logger into a dedicated directory. http://git.io/z1aNOg
20130821 11:41:57< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 723296568bb7 / src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Add the log_line_cache detail into a dedicated file and in the detail directory. http://git.io/q_Sl0w
20130821 11:41:59< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd e3104abe9e03 / src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Move log_line into its file. http://git.io/zdTMhA
20130821 11:42:01< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd ffa468c17e1d / src/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Rename umcd_logger to logger. http://git.io/E45hnw
20130821 11:42:03< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 33cb6bafa6bf / src/umcd/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Put the logger inside the namespace umcd. http://git.io/ZpprZA
20130821 11:42:05< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 764ff95d98b2 / src/ (12 files in 6 dirs): Move the asio logger service inside a dedicated file. http://git.io/Ifnt8A
20130821 11:42:07< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 5712464204cd / src/umcd/logger/detail/ (log_stream.cpp log_stream.hpp): Add the forgotten files log_stream.hpp/cpp. http://git.io/IhkXzA
20130821 11:42:09< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd a13cf32e2087 / src/ (20 files in 7 dirs): Put environment related-files into the env directory. http://git.io/ScV0Lg
20130821 11:42:11< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 0f0a26fedc23 / src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Add the environment loader classes. http://git.io/z7x7kQ
20130821 11:42:13< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd d249a270f7dd / src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Add the server_core classes in env/ http://git.io/fJh2XQ
20130821 11:42:15< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 71c44d26e8af / src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Add the files for the database info in env/. Rename database_connexion to databa http://git.io/BnpasA
20130821 11:42:17< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd fd7531545591 / src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Add the protocol_info in a dedicated class. http://git.io/8voFNA
20130821 11:42:19< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 3840828ccb78 / src/ (16 files in 6 dirs): Rename umcd_error to error and enclose it into the umcd namespace. Resolve name  http://git.io/qLlyiw
20130821 11:42:21< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd c04bf26fd497 / src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Add severity related variables into the severity class (instead of the logger cl http://git.io/fEVlyw
20130821 11:42:23< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 23bf1ad80487 / src/ (37 files in 7 dirs): Everything related to UMCD and not generic is in the namespace umcd. Rename umcd http://git.io/WWBIow
20130821 11:42:25< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 34f881d337f6 / src/umcd/ (protocol/wml/protocol.cpp server/network_communicator.hpp): Add a network_communicator, use to track transfer status and events. http://git.io/Xp-CaA
20130821 11:42:27< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 25de229b7e2a / src/umcd/server/network_sender.hpp: Add a network_sender, refinement of network_communicator for sending data over t http://git.io/GNJCUQ
20130821 11:42:29< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd a089e5148dbe / src/umcd/server/data_sender.hpp: Add a data_sender, refinement of network_sender. It used to keep alive some data http://git.io/Dm2acw
20130821 11:42:31< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 21d3dc2b2a18 / src/umcd/protocol/ (header_data.cpp header_data.hpp): Add helper to send metadata header (here a config) over the network with a paylo http://git.io/p0QxBA
20130821 11:42:33< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd 954a9bfa5944 / src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Test the system by returning a dumb error message. Fix the compilation. http://git.io/nuO-mQ
20130821 11:42:35< irker083> wesnoth: Pierre T wesnoth-old:asio_umcd b25ea7580736 / src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Fix the scons build. Fix compilation warning. http://git.io/g8A-oA
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20130821 12:12:55< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#451 (asio_umcd - b25ea75 : Pierre T): The build was broken.
20130821 12:12:55< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/10445105
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20130821 12:14:10< irker083> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 433a2452668b / src/addon/ (manager.cpp manager.hpp): addon/mg: Trap config::error exceptions thrown during .pbl read http://git.io/XX2LeA
20130821 12:14:13< irker083> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master abcba170e4b4 / changelog players_changelog src/addon/manager_ui.cpp: addon/mg: Catch and report invalid_pbl_exception exceptions http://git.io/VUnWhg
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20130821 13:14:12< thunderstruck> fabi: How many sides are supposed to be playable by users in Kalian under Attack?
20130821 13:14:38< thunderstruck> I see 3 sides with controller=human, but if I understand correctly, first chapter is supposed to be for 2p only.
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20130821 20:37:21< irker066> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth-old:master e8873aefabab / / (5 files in 4 dirs): updated German translation http://git.io/Q3AB0A
20130821 20:37:21< irker066> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth-old:1.10 4b5c4636df70 / / (5 files in 4 dirs): updated German translation http://git.io/O6gROQ
20130821 20:37:43< irker066> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth-old:master 2a85569c1ead / doc/man/ru/wesnoth.6: added missing russian manpages http://git.io/IcwIBA
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20130821 21:29:49< Ivanovic> AI0867, esr: since you know some python can you perhaps have a look at utils/compare_images.py ?
20130821 21:30:03< Ivanovic> i seem to be getting this message lately usiny python 3.3:
20130821 21:30:10< Ivanovic>   File "/home/nils/wesnoth_up/utils/compare_images.py", line 25
20130821 21:30:11< Ivanovic>     except ImportError, e:
20130821 21:30:13< Ivanovic>                       ^
20130821 21:30:14< Ivanovic> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
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20130821 23:09:38< zookeeper> Gambit, i don't have a lot of thoughts on it. what i _don't_ want however is randomly switching a character here and there to be black just for the sake of it.
20130821 23:12:01< zookeeper> well, i did think a bit about which race could have been made predominantly black, and settled for mermen. that'd be visually interesting.
20130821 23:12:01< Gambit> Why's that?
20130821 23:12:29< Gambit> What is the issue with "just for the sake of it"?
20130821 23:13:00< Gambit> I mean, they're already white "just because", so...
20130821 23:13:26< skyfaller> ... are we discussing randomly making some people black but not other ethnicities? Will we get "african" elves but not "asian" elves?
20130821 23:14:06< Gambit> skyfaller: Relevant forum thread: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39264
20130821 23:14:28< zookeeper> because it's tacked on and it'd be obvious that humans in wesnoth were originally all white but then a few token exceptions were added without any in-universe rationale.
20130821 23:14:34< skyfaller> my understanding of why fantasy characters default to white is that Tolkien's world was based on England, where everyone at the relevant time was white
20130821 23:14:55< Gambit> skyfaller: Except that they weren't.
20130821 23:15:17< Gambit> The non-white folks just got erased and ignored.
20130821 23:16:03< skyfaller> hm, cursory googling suggests you may be correct
20130821 23:16:26< skyfaller> I guess it partly depends on the time period
20130821 23:17:29< Gambit> zookeeper: I'm hoping this minimal-impact change at the moment will later inspire the in-universe rationale.
20130821 23:17:35< skyfaller> Wikipedia says in Roman times there were significant black people in the military: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British
20130821 23:17:56< zookeeper> and yes, as i mentioned in the thread if we're going to change some characters' apparent ethnicities, then we'd do something more imaginative than just switching some white people to black people
20130821 23:17:57< skyfaller> naturally the military is all we really care about in Wesnoth :P
20130821 23:18:40< Gambit> zookeeper: Is there a reason some white ancillary characters can't be made non-white?
20130821 23:18:45< Gambit> And "you don't need an explanation right now"
20130821 23:18:48< Gambit> They just are.
20130821 23:19:28< Gambit> It's a completely normal thing.
20130821 23:19:33< Gambit> Immigration is a thing.
20130821 23:21:01< skyfaller> I think if there were black people in England in the military in Roman times it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a sprinkling in the human military if nothing else
20130821 23:21:07< Gambit> *auxiliary - I cannot use words today.
20130821 23:21:12< zookeeper> Gambit, the extra work required for the new portrait? i'd have nothing against a new character being non-white from the get-go, i just don't like changing them.
20130821 23:21:24< Gambit> zookeeper: We're already redoing portraits.
20130821 23:21:41< zookeeper> i've already regretted the relnan/relana affair more than enough
20130821 23:21:42< Gambit> I've talked to Jet about this, he told me which campaigns are still on the todo list.
20130821 23:22:45< skyfaller> it would be weird for them to be common though, black people were rare in that time period no matter how you slice it
20130821 23:23:59< zookeeper> Gambit, sure, for to-be-redone portraits i guess i don't have any particular objections
20130821 23:24:26< Gambit> zookeeper: See, the argument right now against the "in-universe justification" is that non-white humans don't exist in Wesnoth.
20130821 23:24:57< Gambit> It's not quite a catch-22, but it's some similar thing.
20130821 23:26:38< zookeeper> for me the justification is that there's no place where the non-white humans could be from. subtle differences in ethnicity, sure, but where the heck would afrikan'ish people originate from?
20130821 23:26:58< Gambit> zookeeper: Wesnoth is one country.
20130821 23:27:05< zookeeper> bingo
20130821 23:27:06< Gambit> There's so much of Irdya left unexplored, no?
20130821 23:27:20< Gambit> Where were the Khalifate going to be from?
20130821 23:27:27< Gambit> What happened to them, anyway?
20130821 23:27:41< Gambit> I was excited for that. More units is always a great thing for UMC devs.
20130821 23:28:24< zookeeper> IIRC the latest plan was for them to be descendants of people who wandered to the south _after_ humans arrived on the great continent
20130821 23:29:56< zookeeper> it's a plot point that there were no indigenous humans on the great continent before TRoW, retconning a country of black people somewhere way off the map is pretty meh
20130821 23:30:57< zookeeper> if not for the "black people as thugs and villains" trope, i'd be all for making wesfolk black
20130821 23:32:21< Gambit> That plus orcs plus still having the loyalists be all white would be troublesome indeed :P
20130821 23:32:43< Gambit> Not loyalists, that's an MP faction.
20130821 23:33:25< zookeeper> well, see, if we did that then we'd need no explanation for black/mixed humans/loyalists
20130821 23:34:22< zookeeper> _any_ human post-TRoW could just as well be black or white
20130821 23:34:53< skyfaller> where did the humans come from originally?
20130821 23:35:16< skyfaller> is Wesnoth supposed to be England or the New World or something else?
20130821 23:35:26< zookeeper> from the far west, same as the wesfolk. there's just an indeterminate amount of time in between.
20130821 23:36:12< skyfaller> so all of the races except for humans were already established in Wesnoth?
20130821 23:36:27< zookeeper> except for humans and orcs, yes
20130821 23:37:34< zookeeper> so there's really only two sources of humans in the world; the green islanders and the wesfolk
20130821 23:38:08< skyfaller> so are the green islanders and the wesfolk supposed to be physically identical?
20130821 23:38:21< skyfaller> are they both vanilla white Europeans?
20130821 23:39:00< zookeeper> they are identical atm, but as far as i'm concerned they wouldn't need to be
20130821 23:39:54< skyfaller> and how big are the green island and where the wesfolk are from? Is there room for physical differentiation within those populations?
20130821 23:40:16< skyfaller> if they're both small places it would be weird for there to be lots of racial diversity
20130821 23:40:31< skyfaller> it may be easier to add places for other people to come from
20130821 23:41:37< zookeeper> the far west is apparently huge and varied anything could come from there, and i suppose the green isle could have some diversity too even though i guess it can't be bigger than england
20130821 23:42:15< skyfaller> yeah, maybe the far west should have lots of different ethnicities then, in addition to the already known "wesfolk"
20130821 23:43:48< zookeeper> sure, but the wesfolk are the only people who make it east, with everyone else presumably getting screwed by orcs and monsters and whatever the heck went on there or at least completely unable to get anywhere near wesnoth.
20130821 23:44:14< skyfaller> if we assume the green island is some sort of alternate England, we could make the known wesfolk some non-English vaguely European ethnicity, like German or Russian
20130821 23:44:45< zookeeper> ah well, gotta go to bed
20130821 23:45:02< skyfaller> well, I hope that this gets sorted out in some reasonable in-universe way, it would be nice to see more diversity
20130821 23:45:11< zookeeper> sure
20130821 23:45:27< skyfaller> I guess part of the problem is that elves/dwarves/orcs etc. are supposed to stand in for different races, but they all look like white Europeans
20130821 23:46:39< skyfaller> I mean, maybe orcs don't like like white Europeans
20130821 23:46:44< skyfaller> but you know what I mean
20130821 23:46:49< skyfaller> *look like
20130821 23:47:35< zookeeper> yeah, most things were designed by white guys before inclusivity became a thing, and it shows :J
20130821 23:48:05< skyfaller> do dwarves all come from one place? can they get diversity too?
20130821 23:48:28< zookeeper> dwarves would be a good place to add diversity, yes
20130821 23:48:38< zookeeper> anyway, i can be poked to continue this discussion later if needs be ->
20130821 23:48:46< skyfaller> ok, nighty night
20130821 23:49:35< Gambit> 08-21 17:47:35| <zookeeper> yeah, most things were designed by white guys before inclusivity became a thing, and it shows :J
20130821 23:49:59< Gambit> ^this. It's not any sort of malicious thing. It's just this weird way our culture has a default.
20130821 23:50:45< skyfaller> it's not weird if everything is based off of Tolkien, it's reasonable but only a historical accident that we should feel free to depart from
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 22 00:00:51 2013