--- Log opened Sat Aug 03 00:00:45 2013
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20130803 02:55:38< lamefun_plus> do modders believe in superstitions?
20130803 02:55:59< lamefun_plus> eg. x,y=$x1,$y1 in filter_attack
20130803 02:59:15< lamefun_plus> makes way harder to learn WML because of superstitious code...
20130803 03:00:20< lamefun_plus> can I associate variables with units using WML?
20130803 03:06:27< Gambit> lamefun_plus: [store_unit]
20130803 03:06:54< Gambit> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/InternalActionsWML#.5Bstore_unit.5D
20130803 03:09:39< lamefun_plus> Gambit, eg. x,y=$x1,$y1 in filter_attack --- is this necessary or just a superstition?
20130803 03:09:48< Gambit> What do you mean?
20130803 03:10:04< Gambit> It makes sure that the filter will only match the currently attacking unit.
20130803 03:10:14< Gambit> Wait...
20130803 03:10:20< Gambit> Oh in filter_attack?
20130803 03:10:36< lamefun_plus> yes
20130803 03:10:43< Gambit> yeah that's silly
20130803 03:12:10< lamefun_plus> also
20130803 03:12:18< lamefun_plus> is it possible to make something like slow
20130803 03:12:28< Gambit> Not yet, unfortunately.
20130803 03:12:54< Gambit> The dev team is slowly but steadily soft coding as much of the game as possible into Lua and WML, but some things are still hard coded.
20130803 03:13:07< Gambit> You can simulate some things.
20130803 03:13:09< lamefun_plus> or imitate it with events
20130803 03:13:23< Gambit> Yeah. That's basically what you have to do right now.
20130803 03:13:33< Gambit> Weapon specials and abilities are also useful in the imitations.
20130803 03:14:25< lamefun_plus> so add ability that worsens the unit and remove it after a turn?
20130803 03:15:04< Gambit> Yeah.
20130803 03:25:39< lamefun_plus> hm
20130803 03:25:48< lamefun_plus> but no ability to lower defenses / hit chance :(
20130803 03:26:19< _8680_> lamefun_plus: Use a [chance_to_hit] weapon special that with apply_to=opponent.
20130803 03:26:28< _8680_> s/that//
20130803 03:28:16< lamefun_plus> so add weapon specials to all unit's weapons?
20130803 03:28:19< lamefun_plus> and then remove?
20130803 03:29:21< _8680_> If necessary.
20130803 03:31:04< lamefun_plus> ok
20130803 03:31:13< lamefun_plus> how to add/remove weapon specials from existing units?
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20130803 06:25:47< PK__> lamefun_plus you could use traits instead of weapon specials
20130803 06:26:05< lamefun_plus> PK__, how do I remove traits?
20130803 06:26:08< lamefun_plus> or add them
20130803 06:26:48< PK__> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML#.5Bmodify_unit.5D [modify_unit]
20130803 06:26:54< PK__> I believe is one way to do it
20130803 06:27:11< PK__> lemme see how MC does it...
20130803 06:27:26< PK__> because we add and remove traits fairly often.
20130803 06:28:36< lamefun_plus> Can add traits with immediate effect. Cannot remove things. 
20130803 06:28:53< PK__> you can remove it. when do you want it removed?
20130803 06:29:34< lamefun_plus> IDK
20130803 06:29:36< PK__> MC also adds abilities and removes them after a turn.
20130803 06:29:58< PK__> if you don't know how to do something, finding an addon that does it so you can look at how they do can be very helpful.
20130803 06:30:02< lamefun_plus> I didn't think about it
20130803 06:30:13< lamefun_plus> fixing Colosseum's code now
20130803 06:30:30< lamefun_plus> did macros exist when it was created?
20130803 06:30:50< PK__> they creator may have just felt macros were unnecessary
20130803 06:31:03< PK__> [fire_event] can be a significantly better way to do it.
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20130803 06:32:01< lamefun_plus> how can it help with shop?
20130803 06:32:11< lamefun_plus> 3500 line monstrosity omg
20130803 06:32:31< PK__> hmmm
20130803 06:32:48< PK__> being alot of lines isn't necessarily a terrible thing.
20130803 06:33:09< PK__> it's just harder to keep track of if you're not the one who made it originally.
20130803 06:33:34< lamefun_plus> http://pastebin.com/5E1L4BNj
20130803 06:33:45< lamefun_plus> it's repeated for every single section
20130803 06:33:57< lamefun_plus> BTW, are multiline macro parameters possible?
20130803 06:34:12< PK__> explain what you mean by "multiline macro parameters"
20130803 06:34:40< lamefun_plus> {MACRO param}
20130803 06:34:48< PK__> you mean
20130803 06:34:59< PK__> {MACRO INPUT1 INPUT2 INPUT3{
20130803 06:35:03< PK__> yes. indeed
20130803 06:35:48< PK__> I had one that was 67
20130803 06:35:56< PK__> but then I decided using [fire_event] lagged less
20130803 06:36:15< PK__> Macro's are really rough on creating your cache
20130803 06:36:48< lamefun_plus> I can't really see alternative for shop...
20130803 06:37:20< lamefun_plus> each section's different
20130803 06:37:39< PK__> does it currently work?
20130803 06:38:02< PK__> what are you attempting to change?
20130803 06:38:29< lamefun_plus> make it less insane
20130803 06:38:46< lamefun_plus> so I can add more shop sections in the future
20130803 06:38:51< lamefun_plus> and much more weapons
20130803 06:39:09< PK__> 3500 lines isn't that bad.
20130803 06:39:36< PK__> then again, I'm the anti-kisst
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20130803 07:16:24< lamefun_plus> can I have weapon names with spaces in them?
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20130803 08:01:53< PK__> lamefun_plus: as long as you surround it with "weapon name"
20130803 08:02:02< PK__> Id's on the other hand should not have spaces
20130803 08:04:12< shadowm> Both attack names (description=) and ids (name=) may have spaces in them.
20130803 08:04:37< shadowm> Also, quoting is only really needed for translatable strings (such as the attack name) or multiline strings.
20130803 08:04:58< shadowm> Or strings that contain a # in them.
20130803 08:05:12< _8680_> And formulae.
20130803 08:05:38< shadowm> No, only strings that contain a + that isn't being used as the preprocessor concatenation operator.
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20130803 08:10:54< PK__> oh, I'm wrong. sorry.
20130803 08:11:26< PK__> Thanks for catching my mistake.
20130803 08:11:36< PK__> I've just always used _ in id's
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20130803 08:15:11< shadowm> That would break everything with translations.
20130803 08:15:33< PK__> as in
20130803 08:15:35< PK__> id=blah_blah
20130803 08:15:58< shadowm> Ah, never mind.
20130803 08:16:03< lamefun_plus> PK__, what bothers me isn't 3500 lines but you have to alter prices in 3 places, damage in 2
20130803 08:16:04< shadowm> I thought you meant id= _ "blah blah"
20130803 08:16:08< PK__> not id= _ "blah blah"
20130803 08:16:16< grognoe> lol
20130803 08:16:21< PK__> I understand translating id's would cause OOS between languages :P
20130803 08:16:51< PK__> lamefun_plus so you're saying to make it more legible you want to alter it in its entirety so you can still change 5 things slightly easier.
20130803 08:17:23< PK__> so make a macro, and fill it in, if that's what you wanna do.
20130803 08:17:42< PK__> it'll still end up being ad nauseum value changing.
20130803 08:21:08< lamefun_plus> not when I start actually changing things and will have to balance prices/damages/etc. eh, and original colosseum reported fireball to have 15 damaged but actually it was 13 --- that's what I want to prevent
20130803 08:23:17< PK__> if you want to prevent false values the use of variables is a good idea.
20130803 08:23:34< PK__> then you only have to change the value in one place
20130803 08:23:41< PK__> instead of 3+
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20130803 08:35:05< wajeemba> What are some units with decent sustain? (for Colesseum ;)
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20130803 08:51:08< lamefun_plus> can macro arguments contain another macros? eg {A_COND ({B_MACRO (A B)})}?
20130803 08:51:22< shadowm> Yes.
20130803 08:51:36< lamefun_plus> so it allows nested ( (( )) )?
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20130803 08:53:19< shadowm> Yes.
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20130803 10:00:59< lamefun_plus> http://pastebin.com/yNjG4Yyz --- how do I fix it the true right way without macros? so I don't have to change gold in 3 places?
20130803 10:02:03< zookeeper> "how do I fix it the true right way without macros?" ?
20130803 10:02:22< lamefun_plus> ?
20130803 10:02:23< lamefun_plus> IDK
20130803 10:02:25< lamefun_plus> how?
20130803 10:03:08< zookeeper> set a variable with the value "35" and then instead of 35 just use $thatvariablename
20130803 10:03:23< lamefun_plus> where?
20130803 10:03:32< lamefun_plus> can I set it just befpre [option] in messsage
20130803 10:03:48< zookeeper> no, before [message]
20130803 10:04:04< zookeeper> [set_variable] isn't said to be valid inside [message]
20130803 10:04:37< lamefun_plus> :(
20130803 10:05:42< lamefun_plus> with macros I just have eg. {COLOSSEUM_SHOP_ITEM_BEGIN 10 (+1 ranged damage)}
20130803 10:07:02< shadowm> I'm not sure if you actually understood how and when macros are good/bad.
20130803 10:07:13< lamefun_plus> no
20130803 10:08:07< lamefun_plus> I don't understand anything
20130803 10:08:43< shadowm> The contents of a macro are substituted in place _every single time_ the macro is included between braces. This can be a problem if the substituted contents are particularly large and repetitive.
20130803 10:08:54< lamefun_plus> I'll just write a Python script that will generate monolithic shop for me
20130803 10:09:09< lamefun_plus> shadowm, I know
20130803 10:09:18< shadowm> But there are situations in which that just can't be helped because the code cannot be unified using e.g. a Lua-based WML tag or custom events.
20130803 10:09:20< zookeeper> i can't help when i can't tell what it is you really want.
20130803 10:09:27< shadowm> It seems like yours is such a situation. :\
20130803 10:09:39< lamefun_plus> shadowm, I'll write a python script
20130803 10:09:40< shadowm> s/because/if/
20130803 10:09:53< shadowm> That's another misconception at work here.
20130803 10:10:03< shadowm> Macros are supposed to make your coding easier. Wesnoth just doesn't care.
20130803 10:10:33< shadowm> Avoiding macros in the aforementioned case is solely intended to keep memory usage (and saved game size) under control.
20130803 10:11:11< lamefun_plus> can macros statically check condition?
20130803 10:11:20< lamefun_plus> eg. place a comma if the list is not empty
20130803 10:11:33< zookeeper> no
20130803 10:12:57< zookeeper> thye _might_ be able to tell whether a given argument was empty (meaning just an empty pair of ()'s) or not, but i'm not sure.
20130803 10:13:09< zookeeper> probably not even that
20130803 10:13:42< shadowm> #ifver ARGUMENT == 0.0.0   would be a very hacky way to do that and I'm not sure whether it'd actually work.
20130803 10:14:13< shadowm> Otherwise there isn't any way to compare the contents of a macro/macro argument in the preprocessor.
20130803 10:15:28< shadowm> And the above is just a corollary of the version_info default constructor building the equivalent of passing "0.0.0".
20130803 10:16:10< lamefun_plus> uhmbggmgg
20130803 10:16:19< lamefun_plus> I'll generate shop with Perl or Python...
20130803 10:16:22< lamefun_plus> seems much easier and faster
20130803 10:16:54< shadowm> Or you could use macros, really.
20130803 10:17:02< zookeeper> i hope you know what you're doing.
20130803 10:17:17< shadowm> You are just suggesting to use Perl or Python to perform the same task the WML preprocessor would normally do.
20130803 10:17:19< lamefun_plus> can't for what I want
20130803 10:17:25< lamefun_plus> because
20130803 10:17:29< zookeeper> i don't really see why you think it's a problem to write a shop by hand
20130803 10:17:38< lamefun_plus> I can't place the code that checks if item is affordable near the option
20130803 10:17:53< lamefun_plus> I wnat to make price green if it's affordable, red if it's not
20130803 10:18:11< zookeeper> that's not a problem
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20130803 10:18:27< lamefun_plus> for that I'll have to check affordability in event
20130803 10:18:37< zookeeper> nope
20130803 10:19:32< zookeeper> just use two [option]s for each item, and make only one show at any given time with a [show_if] which checks the cost; show the green one if the player has enough gold, and the red one (which also does nothing if selected) if not
20130803 10:21:54< zookeeper> you can check the gold in a [show_if] provided that you [store_gold]/[store_side] before the [message]
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20130803 11:19:17< lamefun_plus>  [object] 
20130803 11:19:26< lamefun_plus> does it add internal "object" to unit?
20130803 11:19:30< lamefun_plus> or just modifies it?
20130803 11:19:57< lamefun_plus> I want to modify an attack which attacker is attacking with after each hit and then return it to original state after it's done
20130803 11:21:27< zookeeper> it... varies
20130803 11:21:29< zookeeper> i think
20130803 11:21:57< zookeeper> didn't understand what you were describing though.
20130803 11:22:12< lamefun_plus> +2 damage after each hit
20130803 11:22:18< lamefun_plus> when attack ends, the attack returns to normal
20130803 11:22:21< zookeeper> okay
20130803 11:22:31< lamefun_plus> growing fury, but doesn't care about attack number
20130803 11:22:46< zookeeper> i believe that's impossible to make to show up in damage calculations, so that'd be a major downside
20130803 11:24:23< zookeeper> well, practically impossible anyway.
20130803 11:26:54< zookeeper> in case you still want to do it, you'll need some attacker_hits event which increases the damage (via an [object] most likely), and after the fight you'll want to [clear_variable] said objects from the unit's [modifications] (and possibly also clear the damage= value from its [attack]s so that they get re-calculated; not sure if it's still required or not)
20130803 11:27:57< zookeeper> an alternative would be to give the attack a [damage] special, and increment its value= by 2 on every hit in an attacker_hits event
20130803 11:28:27< zookeeper> whether such a direct change would take effect mid-combat without extra care, i don't know.
20130803 12:02:13< lamefun_plus> is unit ID kept in store-unstore cycle
20130803 12:02:21< lamefun_plus> yes, specials take effect immediately
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20130803 17:35:58< fiddlinmacx> JackStorm448: Hey.
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20130803 20:50:26< lamefun> http://pastebin.com/M4X0DXnx
20130803 20:50:31< lamefun> what's wrong with the code?
20130803 20:50:40< lamefun> why is $unit.variables.fury not stored?
20130803 20:52:56< zookeeper> because you use variable=, not name=
20130803 21:03:07< lamefun> thanks
20130803 21:03:10< lamefun> works 100% now
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20130803 21:16:19< lamefun> how do I use fire_event with weapon?
20130803 21:17:52< zookeeper> the way it says in the wiki, i guess
20130803 21:18:27< zookeeper> is there something unclear about it?
20130803 21:19:14< lamefun> yes, everything
20130803 21:19:25< lamefun> how do I pass a weapons variable from another event?
20130803 21:19:46< lamefun> I just want to have a single code for both attacker and defender
20130803 21:20:07< lamefun> and on defender hits fire_event with unit and second unit swapped
20130803 21:23:09< zookeeper> actually, i'm not sure if [primary_attack] takes a weapon filter and passes the info of the matching attack, or just passes whatever you give it
20130803 21:23:45< zookeeper> probably the latter since that's what it sounds like
20130803 21:24:19< lamefun> so how to give it contents of $weapons instead of WML?
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20130803 21:24:52< lamefun> in the latter case
20130803 21:25:44< zookeeper> so, uh, i guess you'll just use the $weapon and $second_weapon variables as normal in your attacker hits event, and in your defender hits event you'll just make sure that you'll provide whatever keys you need in the attacker hits event
20130803 21:26:07< zookeeper> [primary_attack] name=$weapon.name type=$weapon.type ... etc
20130803 21:27:01< lamefun> so no proper solution that would work in all cases again...
20130803 21:27:11< zookeeper> i mean, i presume your intent was to have the attacker hits event handle whatever effect you're after, and have a defender hits event "redirect" to that via [fire_event]
20130803 21:27:12< lamefun> i'll just copy-paste, that's easier
20130803 21:27:25< lamefun> yes
20130803 21:28:02< lamefun> i'll just copy-paste
20130803 21:28:03< lamefun> faster
20130803 21:28:55< zookeeper> well you can use [set_variables] to copy the whole $weapon var to some other var in defender hits, and use that instead of $weapon in the attacker hits event
20130803 21:29:36< zookeeper> ...or you can check what $weapon actually contains after such a [fire_event]; maybe it contains all the usual stuff for the matching weapon after all
20130803 21:30:15< lamefun> why doesn't WML have proper functions?
20130803 21:31:09< zookeeper> no one never added them. and it originally didn't, because originally it was a really basic markup language with minimal scripting capabilities, not the bloated hybrid monster it's now.
20130803 21:31:38< zookeeper> anyway, i'm slow to respond because my desk is so full of junk that it's cumbersome to type
20130803 21:31:58< zookeeper> and because i occasionally have to use 1-2 hands to hold stuff until the glue settles
20130803 21:35:35< celticminstrel> Doesn't fire_event let you set the event's special variables?
20130803 21:35:46< lamefun> no
20130803 21:35:53< lamefun> not like I want it
20130803 21:35:59< celticminstrel> "bloated hybrid monster" -- definitely agreed there.
20130803 21:36:14< celticminstrel> I mean like setting the $weapon variable.
20130803 21:36:26< lamefun> no
20130803 21:36:42< lamefun> it doesn't let just primary_weapon = $weapon
20130803 21:37:01< celticminstrel> ...I think you misunderstood.
20130803 21:37:27< celticminstrel> I think there's a way to say "I want the $weapon variable in the called event to hold this value"..
20130803 21:37:39< lamefun> misunderstood what
20130803 21:37:51< celticminstrel> I dunno.
20130803 21:37:55< celticminstrel> ...
20130803 21:38:05< celticminstrel> Silly Dunno. >_>
20130803 21:38:17< lamefun> I think fire_event has [primary_attack] name=$weapon.name type=$weapon.type
20130803 21:38:35< lamefun> I want primary_weapon=$weapon or primary_weapon=$second_weapon
20130803 21:38:55< Dunno> 20:54:50< Dunno> could you please not use the word dunno when I'm around thank you very much?
20130803 21:38:57< Dunno> :P
20130803 21:39:26< Mal-Bumba> Dunno: Change your nick
20130803 21:39:35< celticminstrel> Sorry, I can't do that.
20130803 21:39:37< lamefun> I want a solution I can codify as macro and then not fear that my defender code is not the same as the attacker code
20130803 21:39:46< Dunno> I'm just joking, I don't mind :)
20130803 21:39:48< Mal-Bumba> make it 'kgjwg0g38r4tae'
20130803 21:39:57< Mal-Bumba> no way anyone's going to say that
20130803 21:40:03< celticminstrel> Heh.
20130803 21:40:30< zookeeper> even if that was just an example, i'll just remind that you can never do something=$container anywhere (so that it'd mean anything, anyway)
20130803 21:41:05< lamefun> yes
20130803 21:41:15< lamefun> that's why it's not a general solution
20130803 21:41:48< celticminstrel> ...ah.
20130803 21:42:06< zookeeper> my [set_variables] idea ought to be pretty simple code-wise
20130803 21:42:34< lamefun> what idea?
20130803 21:43:42< lamefun> oh
20130803 21:43:47< lamefun> understood
20130803 21:43:58< zookeeper> <zookeeper> well you can use [set_variables] to copy the whole $weapon var to some other var in defender hits, and use that instead of $weapon in the attacker hits event
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20130803 21:45:49< lamefun> are all variables global?
20130803 21:45:59< zookeeper> yes
20130803 21:47:32< lipkab> Dunno: Hi.
20130803 21:47:41< Dunno> hi
20130803 21:48:17< lipkab> Do you know the graffiti in Krakow at the riverbank, depicting some big green reptile?
20130803 21:48:39< Dunno> nope, I don't live in Krakow, but in Warsaw
20130803 21:48:46< lipkab> Oh, too bad :(
20130803 21:48:52< Dunno> but what about it?
20130803 21:49:17< lipkab> I saw like two years ago, and I'm wondering whether it's a dragon or a crocodile ever since.
20130803 21:49:34< lipkab> But I forgot to ask when I was there.
20130803 21:49:45< Dunno> Are you Polish?
20130803 21:49:49< lipkab> No.
20130803 21:49:56< Dunno> I'm asking because it might be a reference to Polish folk culture
20130803 21:50:02< Dunno> the legend of "Smok Wawelski"
20130803 21:50:10< Dunno> or the Wawel Dragon if you like
20130803 21:50:14< Dunno> but I'm just guessing
20130803 21:50:20< bumbadadabum> Hey, do you know the graffiti in Amsterdam?
20130803 21:50:24< Dunno> xD
20130803 21:50:29< bumbadadabum> the one with "Smoke weed everyday"
20130803 21:50:32< lipkab> It has a city on its back.
20130803 21:50:44< bumbadadabum> do you know if it has another meaning?
20130803 21:51:22< lamefun> zookeeper, but attacker hits event filter won't pass then, if I don't pass weapons var
20130803 21:51:52< Dunno> lipkab: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4122/4886302406_1f8b785f3b.jpg ?
20130803 21:52:28< lipkab> Yeah, that's it!
20130803 21:52:32< Dunno> hehe
20130803 21:52:35< lipkab> Or looks like it.
20130803 21:52:38< Dunno> so yeah, it's a dragon
20130803 21:53:01< lipkab> A Wavel Dragon, even.
20130803 21:53:20< Dunno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawel_Dragon
20130803 21:53:24< Dunno> if you're still interested
20130803 21:53:36< lipkab> Thankies.
20130803 21:53:51< Dunno> Noproblemies
20130803 21:53:55< Dunno> :)
20130803 21:56:38< lipkab> Dunno: And that's the one whose bones are supposed to be hanging on one of the cathedrals up in the castle, right?
20130803 21:57:02< Dunno> I don't know that :D
20130803 21:57:14< Dunno> All I remember is the fairy tale
20130803 21:57:27< lipkab> Oh.
20130803 21:57:47< lipkab> Then I have something to wonder about for the next 2 years! :)
20130803 21:57:52< Dunno> haha
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20130803 23:22:25< lamefun> I have 3 items for each weapon in shop: already have, too expensive, affordable, 19 weapons, delay between doubleclick and menu is already slightly noticable...
20130803 23:24:12< lamefun> nvm
20130803 23:24:21< lamefun> tried 400 weapons, still not too bad
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