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20130830 06:53:48< bhldev> hi
20130830 06:54:33< shadowm> Hello there.
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20130830 14:34:33< adityarajbhatt> There are two repos on github - wesnoth-old and wesnoth-unfinished. What is the difference?
20130830 14:39:28< lipkab> adityarajbhatt: Wesnoth used to use Subversion.
20130830 14:39:38< lipkab> Then the repo was converted to git.
20130830 14:39:56< lipkab> But there were some mistakes made during the conversion.
20130830 14:40:17< lipkab> ...so the appropriate person decided to redo the whole thing.
20130830 14:40:41< lipkab> However, he hasn't done it yet.
20130830 14:41:18< lipkab> So, for now, we use the product of the first conversion (wesnoth-old).
20130830 14:42:10< lipkab> I guess the other one is meant to become the main repo once the reconversion is finished.
20130830 14:44:01< adityarajbhatt> So if I want to play the latest of what the devs are doing, I should use the -old?
20130830 14:44:30< lipkab> Yes.
20130830 14:46:24< adityarajbhatt> Okay. Does Wesnoth have a ASCII mode? I played dwarf fortress before so I like ascii.
20130830 14:46:31< adityarajbhatt> *an
20130830 14:46:51< lipkab> Blah, no.
20130830 14:47:14< tdk27> not entirely trivial to implement, either - terrain is too relevant
20130830 14:47:37< tdk27> (that is, not entirely trivial to implement in a usable fashion)
20130830 14:48:20< adityarajbhatt> Too bad. Could it not be done using multiple z levels? Just asking, I am not proficient enough to even *consider* doing it myself.
20130830 14:48:54< vultraz> ASCII mode?
20130830 14:49:00< vultraz> whut is dat
20130830 14:49:32< adityarajbhatt> vultraz: Have you played any roguelike like Nethack or Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? 
20130830 14:49:49< vultraz> never heard of them
20130830 14:49:58< adityarajbhatt> You know, using regular characters to represent objects.
20130830 14:50:32< adityarajbhatt> It looks scary (and I will say it, even ugly) but when you get used to it, it usually (in my opinion) proves to be much better than 2d graphic tiles.
20130830 14:50:43< lipkab> vultraz: This is an ASCII game: http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/Update%202-18/
20130830 14:50:57< adityarajbhatt> Faster access to information, less memory usage and less effort needede to develop the game.
20130830 14:51:56< vultraz> lipkab: that looks...incredibly ugly
20130830 14:52:07< tdk27> except that in wesnoth you don't get most of those advantages: hex grid means a fair bit of effort still, and you lose the ability to instantly glance at a unit and see what tile it's on
20130830 14:52:07< adityarajbhatt> Like I said.
20130830 14:52:24< tdk27> it works very well for roguelikes, but isn't well suited to wesnoth
20130830 14:52:42< adityarajbhatt> It works well enough for Dwarf Fortress. Wait, I will have to check what hex grid is.
20130830 14:53:24< tdk27> adityarajbhatt: dwarf fortress is cheating and actually doing a graphical display, just that the graphics for each tile are made to look like characters
20130830 14:54:08< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: Of course, I know it uses opengl to render the characters. But they are still Unicode and not tiles.
20130830 14:54:25< blarumyrran> ? i dont think df uses opengl
20130830 14:54:27< adityarajbhatt> That is not really cheating, its just using the graphic card instead of the CPU.
20130830 14:54:57< blarumyrran> still unicode ?? what
20130830 14:55:03< blarumyrran> they are images
20130830 14:55:10< blarumyrran> images cannot be unicode
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20130830 14:55:23< adityarajbhatt> blarumyrran: It does use opengl. Here - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28841.0
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20130830 14:56:27< adityarajbhatt> blarumyrran: What have you seen? Here is the default game as it comes "officially" - http://www.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/dwarf_sites_4.png&imgrefurl=http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/&h=387&w=359&sz=7&tbnid=vDa3A10uXhIJCM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=83&zoom=1&usg=__jW3qRCeTBSsfV9pWj-dJcxVYKJw=&docid=EOzqsmAcpiE9YM&sa=X&ei=YZYgUuWpDY6trAeCh4HABQ&ved=0CFMQ9QEwBA&dur=300
20130830 14:56:32< tdk27> adityarajbhatt: iirc they're actually a set of images corresponding to extended ascii, hence the ability to trivially replace them with alternate tilesets
20130830 14:57:12< adityarajbhatt> Sorry, long link. Should have used a url shortener. And yes tdk27 that was what I said.
20130830 14:57:29< blarumyrran> adityarajbhatt: search for *.png in df folder
20130830 14:57:44< lipkab> vultraz: Don't you say.
20130830 14:58:24< vultraz> lipkab: s'cuse me?
20130830 14:58:43< tdk27> in short, what I'm saying is that DF is set up to *look* like it's displaying ascii via curses/equiv, but is actually just displaying graphics, hence describing it as 'cheating'. It does mean it doesn't get (much of) the minimised effort or performance improvements
20130830 14:58:56< lipkab> "lipkab: that looks...incredibly ugly"
20130830 14:59:05< adityarajbhatt> I am just saying that it uses characters (or images of characters). By the way, it can be played as ASCII if you set MODE:TEXT. You know, pure ascii with no unicode and can be run in the console too.
20130830 14:59:37< tdk27> ascii/extended ascii/unicode doesn't make any difference to whether it's console suitable...
20130830 14:59:39< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: That is right. Sorry about the performance thing.
20130830 14:59:45< blarumyrran> adityarajbhatt: images cannot be unicode; that doesn't mean anything
20130830 14:59:56< tdk27> my console happily displays unicode :P
20130830 14:59:59< adityarajbhatt> blarumyrran: Please read what I am writing.
20130830 15:00:22< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: Really? Not the terminal, the thing without Xserver. You must have a new monitor then.
20130830 15:00:29< adityarajbhatt> Mine does not have the capability.
20130830 15:01:24< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: It does make a difference. The game does not use X dependencies and starts in the console itself. Change the settings file and see.
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20130830 15:01:57< adityarajbhatt> Anyway, my original point was that (for me) characters are easier on the eyes (and brain) than graphics.
20130830 15:02:04 * tdk27 drops out of X
20130830 15:02:09< tdk27> nope, unicode still works here 
20130830 15:02:41< adityarajbhatt> I do not know how to do that. Is there some special library for it? You are using linux, are you not?
20130830 15:03:12< tdk27> debian unstable, running screen and irssi on an old dell. nothing particularly fancy
20130830 15:04:16< adityarajbhatt> Must be my fault then. Will have to google to see how. As for now, my console does not render Unicode, only returns blank spaces.
20130830 15:04:51< tdk27> anyway, sidetrack. while it works for roguelikes, I can think of two main issues with making an ascii skin for wesnoth: 1) wesnoth is played on a hexagonal grid, not a square one, 2) for wesnoth both the unit and the terrain are important, so you need to be able to see both at a glance
20130830 15:05:27< adityarajbhatt> Units are easy in ascii (even better). As for terrain, I do not know.
20130830 15:05:42< adityarajbhatt> Maybe use colours (copying purely from DF at this point).
20130830 15:06:21< adityarajbhatt> To show elevation and temperature. I can not think of how to show the day-night cycle though. Maybe a simple text at the top saying "day" or "night".
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20130830 15:06:50< adityarajbhatt> But the hex map would pose challenges. I just read its article on Wikipedia.
20130830 15:07:31< tdk27> the problem is that there's about 400ish possible types of wesnoth terrain, all relevant to gameplay
20130830 15:07:37< adityarajbhatt> :)
20130830 15:07:53< tdk27> hm, probably notably fewer, drop that estimate to maybe only 200
20130830 15:08:04< adityarajbhatt> How relevant exactly? It seems some pruning could be done in that section.
20130830 15:08:30< tdk27> have you played much wesnoth? I'm assuming not from the questions you're asking, but in short: all units have variable movement costs and defenses by terrain type
20130830 15:09:03< tdk27> and the game balance is very carefully optimised for the range of terrains and so on
20130830 15:09:17< adityarajbhatt> No, but I read article on Wikipedia concerning gameplay. What I meant was how _much_? Enough to turn a battle?
20130830 15:10:38< tdk27> fairly. merging e.g. hills with mountains makes significatn differences to the loyalists/knalgans matchup (either making loyalists much more powerful if you say "mountains are now the same as hills" or the reverse),
20130830 15:11:23< adityarajbhatt> And people are able to remember how each type of terrain looks?
20130830 15:11:41< adityarajbhatt> Not general things like mountains and rivers but (I am assuming) finer details.
20130830 15:12:14< tdk27> they're done combinatorially: you have some terrain types which are "x on top of y": a forest on hill, or snow on hill, or snow on forests
20130830 15:12:56< tdk27> and then villages on various places (which can have notable gameplay implications for how defensible the village is)
20130830 15:13:25< tdk27> here's the list and images so you can get an idea: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainCodeTableWML
20130830 15:14:06< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: Sounds good. As an aside, the wiki is excellent.
20130830 15:15:35< tdk27> some are primarily cosmetic: the various colours of water aren't used in any mechanical ways (that I know of). but e.g. the deep/shallow/coastal/ford distinction in water is very relevant, mud/dirt/sand all play quite differently, forested hills are quite relevant in their implications for elves vs orcs, etc
20130830 15:18:18< adityarajbhatt> This is sounding better and better. How do I get the the topmost level of the git repository? Without all the project history and older versions. That really increases the size when all I need is to compile and play the latest (developmental) version.
20130830 15:18:32< tdk27> basically, I think it would be very hard to get the layers of info currently provided by "unit graphic on terrain graphic" into a nice ascii-based system that gave you the same amount of info at a glance
20130830 15:18:34< adityarajbhatt> I remember it was something to do with -depth=1.
20130830 15:18:57< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: Right, though generally, ascii works better (especially for units and structures).
20130830 15:20:00< tdk27> adityarajbhatt: depends how many units you've got. How are you disambiguating a thief from a rogue from a spearman from a bowman from a fencer? they're all humans, and you need colour to indicate which team they're on
20130830 15:21:05< adityarajbhatt> In turn based games, you press a button which switches to "view mode" and then move to the unit.
20130830 15:21:21< tdk27> ascii display works well when you've only got a very limited number of pieces of unique information to display (in original rogue, there were only 54 monsters, one per character)
20130830 15:21:24< adityarajbhatt> That shows all the details about it. By extension you can see the surrounding similar units.
20130830 15:22:09< tdk27> which means you can no longer look at a battlefield and see the overall layout in one go - you lose the ability to see the whole situation at once
20130830 15:22:57< tdk27> with current wesnoth graphics you can look at two groups of units and immediately see: what's deployed where. what sides they're on. what terrains they're on, hence defense etc. what terrains they're *next* to (relevant for enemy attack options). how injured they are, and how close to levelling up they are. 
20130830 15:23:18< adityarajbhatt> tdk27: Yes, you have really changed my mind. It seems I had just adapted to playing in that constricted field of vision in DF. Although maybe some overmap could be made which showed the broader units while the main map would be for the detailed battleground. How does that sound?
20130830 15:23:42< adityarajbhatt> Like in Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
20130830 15:23:42< tdk27> adityarajbhatt: having said all this, you could possibly make something quite cool which did ascii type display on the minimap somehow
20130830 15:23:52< adityarajbhatt> Exactly.
20130830 15:24:00< tdk27> then you're *adding* more info there, instead of taking away info
20130830 15:24:43< adityarajbhatt> You are right. But I just can not let the idea of a ascii-rts go. Maybe when I am more proficient in C++, I will give it a try.
20130830 15:24:57< tdk27> I'd suggest getting a version built, playing some rounds to get a feel for how it plays, and then starting to look at what info you think is really necessary etc 
20130830 15:26:44< adityarajbhatt> Will do so. Thank you for the discussion, maybe ascii *is not* the answer to everything in gaming. I will have to talk about this in the rgrd forums.
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20130830 15:27:32< adityarajbhatt> rgrd - rec.games.roguelike.development (accessed from Google Groups, usually). You should see that place.
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20130830 15:35:56< tdk27> hm, that seemed to be fairly productive
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20130830 17:00:09< Necrosporus> Old portrait of L'isar was better... Though new one fits 'battle princess' unit
20130830 17:00:30< Necrosporus> Why not to use old one for princess and new for battle princess?
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20130830 17:16:48< Kalaz> Necrosporus: "Well, the thing is that her character is getting re-designed to precisely make her more of an armoured warrior rather than the agile princess in skimpy chainmail; her stats (and sooner or later, sprites) will change to reflect that. Such a change has been planned for years and will finally be done now that she's getting a portrait in that style." (Quoted from the forums)
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20130830 17:32:31< Necrosporus> Why not to leave the portraits as it was for stable version?
20130830 17:32:39< tdk27> because the new portrait is a lot nicer?
20130830 17:32:53< Necrosporus> I don't think they are nicer
20130830 17:33:02< Necrosporus> Delphador one is fine
20130830 17:33:06< Necrosporus> but others are worse
20130830 17:33:30< tdk27> (also, while it'll be a bit sad to no longer have her as high-speed elusivefoot with the sceptre and void armour, it does mean there's some reason to pick other carriers for those)
20130830 17:34:53< zookeeper> Necrosporus, and you're the only one who thinks so.
20130830 17:35:00< tdk27> my wesnoth install is still 1.8, so I had to go find the new portraits on the forum, but I think she's done much better from a style and art POV)
20130830 17:35:19< tdk27> both her and Konrad have some very nicely done sets of armour
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20130830 17:36:55< tdk27> (fairly uniquely, it's actually quite realistic armour as well)
20130830 17:37:21< zookeeper> yeah, i'm glad we don't have any artists who like silly armour
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20130830 17:44:08< Necrosporus> zookeeper, there's at least one who thinks the same
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20130830 17:45:04< zookeeper> fine. still, no one who has any chance whatsoever of getting to affect the decision. :p
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20130830 18:40:15< Necrosporus> zookeeper, well, I could copy portraits from old version into /usr :P
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20130830 23:00:45< Gambit> shadowm: make the forums faster
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20130830 23:10:27< fabi> Gambit: :-) It is slow for me as well.
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 31 00:00:47 2013