--- Log opened Sat Sep 07 00:01:00 2013
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20130907 00:18:38< irker315> wesnoth: lipk wesnoth-old:master 48a5b585e8d3 / projectfiles/VC9/.gitignore: Ignore build folder for ReleaseDEBUG MSVC builds. http://git.io/Cyw3OA
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20130907 01:05:52< irker315> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master cce68fae0385 / src/multiplayer_create_engine.cpp: fix an MSVC warning http://git.io/oEwOXg
20130907 01:05:55< irker315> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master c5bfcbc6f898 / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: fix the MSVC project file http://git.io/V9HTxw
20130907 01:05:56< irker315> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master e330606b760a / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: cb project update http://git.io/-p4fZg
20130907 01:06:39< lipkab> anonymissimus: ARRRGH.
20130907 01:06:46< lipkab> I was about to do that.
20130907 01:07:21< anonymissimus> well, you could have assumed that I'm doing that already
20130907 01:07:59< anonymissimus> usually I am in that position as I look/think thrice and have a slow machine
20130907 01:08:55< anonymissimus> you can fix the unreachable code if you're familiar with that section
20130907 01:09:17< anonymissimus> I won't
20130907 01:09:17< lipkab> I'll do.
20130907 01:09:21< lipkab> Actually, I made that :)
20130907 01:09:33< lipkab> It's some leftover debug code.
20130907 01:10:35< anonymissimus> good luck, bye
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20130907 01:23:08< bumbadadabum> fabi: Interesting post
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20130907 01:23:26< irker315> wesnoth: lipk wesnoth-old:master 25e09dd19bce / src/multiplayer.cpp: Fix an unreachable code issue. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/25e09dd19bce5dcb398eaa27e7a8dff3b134d6e4
20130907 01:23:44< fabi> bumbadadabum: Thank you. It took my some time and a costly sort of Whiskey to compile it.
20130907 01:23:52< bumbadadabum> heh
20130907 01:24:17< bumbadadabum> fabi: Have you figured something out for it yet?
20130907 01:24:23< fabi> no
20130907 01:24:54< bumbadadabum> I'd suggest to maybe make it leave pollution
20130907 01:25:00< bumbadadabum> like the Civilization nukes
20130907 01:25:24< bumbadadabum> and perhaps make it poison units that start their turn on the pollution
20130907 01:27:37< fabi> Well, that is exactly what I want to avoid. Trivializing things like nuclear warheads, power plant accidents and similar stuff to a degree that they are manageable. I think game designers have a ethnically responsibility for their works. In games like dune2 or command&conquer you use nukes like they were firework rockets.
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20130907 01:28:09< bumbadadabum> You can't make it too game breaking
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20130907 01:29:42< fabi> The soviet union needed to send in 600,000 men to avoid even greater disaster, most of them being dead or heavily encumbered nowadays. Something Germany could not manage to do so in a similar case.  
20130907 01:29:58< fabi> I am speaking about Tschernobyl.
20130907 01:30:18< bumbadadabum> Of course
20130907 01:31:22< bumbadadabum> I would suggest against the inclusion of nuclear things if you want to make it realisitc
20130907 01:31:25< bumbadadabum> *realistic
20130907 01:31:37< fabi> Indeed.
20130907 01:31:41< bumbadadabum> the idea of the power plant is pretty cool
20130907 01:31:51< bumbadadabum> but you can just replace it with an X power plant
20130907 01:31:56< bumbadadabum> that isn't a nuclear power plant
20130907 01:32:44< fabi> There are several energy producing facilities in ASC that I can convert to Combat Shore. From Wind Wheels to solar cells.
20130907 01:32:58< bumbadadabum> Do that
20130907 01:33:06< fabi> Sure. It is already done.
20130907 01:33:17< bumbadadabum> Is it?
20130907 01:33:26< bumbadadabum> I haven't said anything then
20130907 01:33:49< fabi> Yes, the buildings are converted. The whole resource system is not ready yet, that will follow soon.
20130907 01:36:02< fabi> bumbadadabum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xyE-gJ-hFA
20130907 01:36:32< bumbadadabum> fabi: I've seen enough things about Chernobyl
20130907 01:36:40< fabi> This one is quite special.
20130907 01:36:46< bumbadadabum> I might bookmark it
20130907 01:36:54< bumbadadabum> I don't have time to watch a documentary right now
20130907 01:39:13< fabi> Sure
20130907 01:39:51< fabi> I guess it can also be found in other languages.
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20130907 01:55:51< AI0867> fabi: I'm not going to watch a 45 minute documentary right now (or possibly ever) they tend to take far too much time to say only a few things
20130907 01:57:33< AI0867> I don't really see what you're trying to say in that post bumbadadabum referred to
20130907 01:58:16< fabi> Basically, it is a rant about game designers not thinking about ethnics.
20130907 01:58:22< AI0867> ethics
20130907 01:58:29< fabi> Right.
20130907 01:58:32< AI0867> the n makes it a completely different word
20130907 01:59:28< AI0867> but the stuff about a bazooka hitting the cooling system and leading to japan-like results...
20130907 01:59:54< AI0867> modern (that is, not as ancient and crappy as the japanese things) have containment buildings
20130907 02:00:38< AI0867> these are: 1) designed to contain all gases if you need to vent the reactor as in japan, 2) designed to withstand an aircraft impact
20130907 02:00:40< fabi> We had a stress test on German reactors after the "accident" in japan. None of them passed the bazooka or plain crash scenario if the plain is not a small one.
20130907 02:00:51< AI0867> huh
20130907 02:01:09< AI0867> the dutch reactors repeatedly stress that they do survive such things
20130907 02:01:13< fabi> All german reactors are pretty much comparable to those in japan.
20130907 02:01:22< AI0867> you have containment buildings
20130907 02:01:29< AI0867> fukushima #1 does not
20130907 02:01:52< fabi> Sure. Like I wrote in the post. The plants in Germany, France and Sweden are all the most secure ones in the world.
20130907 02:02:15< AI0867> yes, and if something goes wrong, radioactive materials might be released
20130907 02:02:31< AI0867> more radioactive materials are released EVERY YEAR by coal plants
20130907 02:02:57< AI0867> during their normal mode of operation
20130907 02:05:59< fabi> I have never heard of coal containing plutonium.
20130907 02:07:41< fabi> But you are right, it is not a good idea to burn coal for energy production either.
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20130907 02:09:49< fabi> hi mattsc
20130907 02:10:07< mattsc> hi fabi 
20130907 02:10:16< AI0867> it won't contain detectable amounts of plutonium (though there may be very tiny amounts of Pu-244 in there), but it can contain uranium, thorium and their decay products
20130907 02:12:42< fabi> Yes I know. There is even some radio active material in bananas. Nuclear energy lobbyists take that fact as an example that everything isn't as worse as claimed by the other side regularly. But that is only misinformation. When you eat bananas you only replace a certain amount of potassium.
20130907 02:13:05< fabi> If you eat more it just leaves the body unused.
20130907 02:13:48< AI0867> so, what's your point here?
20130907 02:13:50< fabi> Thus eating bananas beside the fact that they are radioactive is no big deal. Not because radiation is harmless but because the body does not keep it.
20130907 02:14:08< AI0867> er, it will keep part of it
20130907 02:14:10< fabi> Another example for misinformation about nuclear stuff.
20130907 02:14:16< AI0867> the point is that the dose is harmless
20130907 02:14:40< AI0867> it's above background level, but not by much
20130907 02:15:01< AI0867> the stuff thrown around by burnt coal is a lot more than that
20130907 02:15:07< fabi> The point is that the jod and strontium you get from a nuclear disaster is far more dangerous than anything you get by burning coal.
20130907 02:15:19< AI0867> only in the affected area
20130907 02:15:54< AI0867> because burning stuff tends to make it spread out over the entire atmosphere
20130907 02:15:59< AI0867> so it just raises the background
20130907 02:16:29< fabi> Well, we had several places in Germany with hotspots. They weren't evacuated. The German government decided that panic is far more dangerous than radiation. And it would have questioned the german atom politic.
20130907 02:17:01< AI0867> what levels are these hotspots at? microsieverts per hour?
20130907 02:17:04< fabi> Our politicans have their heads so deep in the ass of the atom lobby that it is hard to tell how they can still breath.
20130907 02:18:19< AI0867> I'm not saying fission plants are perfectly harmless, I'm saying coal is even worse
20130907 02:18:38< AI0867> and a new one of those is opening in china every week
20130907 02:19:30< fabi> They are that high that we still need to kill wild pigs in the bavarian woods and keep them from being eaten, 25 years after the disaster.
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20130907 02:22:14< fabi> http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/chernobyl_001.png
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20130907 02:23:44< fabi> AI0867: I completely agree that coal plants aren't the solution to produce energy. But I rather have some coal plants than a single nuclear one in my area.
20130907 02:25:45< AI0867> kBq/m^2 of what?
20130907 02:25:53< AI0867> ah, cesium
20130907 02:26:13< AI0867> 30 year half-life
20130907 02:28:01< fabi> Only one of the isotopes.
20130907 02:28:40< fabi> And you need to consider that most results of radioactive decays are still radioactive as well.
20130907 02:32:32< AI0867> not in the case of cs-137
20130907 02:32:52< AI0867> well, the barium will throw of another gamma, but almost immediately
20130907 02:37:05< fabi> Here in the Saarland we are in the area where the wind would blow the fallout if a potential accident at the french plant "Catenom". The French state builds most of its plants on the border to other countries. Catenom has over 100 "meldeplichtige Störfälle" per year.
20130907 02:37:39< fabi> It is very old and very crappy. 
20130907 02:38:04< fabi> And the wind is almost every day blowing from the west.
20130907 02:38:34< fabi> I do not have any grunge with the French people. But that is just a "Sauerei".
20130907 02:42:24< fabi> But if you ask French politicians about the issue, guess what: French nuclear facilities are the most secure ones in the world.
20130907 02:43:09< _Coffee> fabi: lol, you don't like nuclear power much do you?
20130907 02:43:12< fabi> s/state/nation
20130907 02:43:20< fabi> _Coffee: Exactly.
20130907 02:43:44< fabi> _Coffee: That is why I wrote the forum post.
20130907 02:43:46< _Coffee> if you live in Germany you should be worried about your "green" policies and what that means (like in Australia)
20130907 02:44:08< _Coffee> you are burning much brown coal and it is of significantly worse grade than in the past
20130907 02:44:20< _Coffee> sulphur and particles of radioactive smog
20130907 02:44:48< fabi> _Coffee: You are quite right. Our government is doing much wrong there.
20130907 02:45:26< _Coffee> you greenhouse gas emissions have gone up in the last 2 years as well... and you are an example for places like Australia
20130907 02:46:40< fabi> _Coffee: But we also have a share of over 20 percent of regeneration power sources in the meanwhile. The long term plan is to get rid of coal gas oil and atomic energy.
20130907 02:46:54< fabi> regenerating
20130907 02:47:28< _Coffee> I suppose it might make sense in the long run, but I can't see better than investing in new nuclear technology with a focus one day to fusion
20130907 02:47:59< _Coffee> "radiactive waste" is actually perfect for a number of things (like powering probes in space)
20130907 02:48:07< fabi> rofl
20130907 02:48:25< fabi> Then you can get enough for millions of probes from us.
20130907 02:48:31< _Coffee> it is what caused voyager to be so successful
20130907 02:48:52< fabi> Don't get me wrong. I am not completely against atomic science.
20130907 02:48:52< _Coffee> and that should be our collective focus in my opinion
20130907 02:49:26< fabi> You need nuclear stuff in the medicine and for other purposes. Atomic batteries in space probes is a good idea.
20130907 02:49:27< _Coffee> on the scale of things fusion is not actually the best power source
20130907 02:49:44< fabi> I don't believe in fusion power.
20130907 02:50:20< fabi> We have spend that much money with no result so far that would have been better used spend on researching regenerating sources.
20130907 02:50:28< _Coffee> we need power to do cool things like wireless power transfer (wiitricity) and flycing cars (http://www.terrafugia.com/tfx-vision) :D
20130907 02:50:48< fabi> We need flying cars? That is new to me.
20130907 02:50:48< _Coffee> you ain't going to get that from windmills/hydro/coal/fission
20130907 02:50:53< _Coffee> I do :)
20130907 02:56:08< fabi> Every time you ask the scientists when fision is ready to produce energy (currently you spend more than you get out) they tell you: 50 years
20130907 02:56:30< _Coffee> that is because little money is spent on it
20130907 02:56:37< fabi> 50 years ago it was already 50 years.
20130907 02:56:43< _Coffee> I'mm hoping the chinese put it as a national focus
20130907 02:56:51< fabi> I do so as well.
20130907 02:57:05< fabi> It will bind their resources to a high degree with no result.
20130907 02:57:27< _Coffee> they have the money and the political will to do big things
20130907 02:57:39< _Coffee> it's where all the new quantum stuff comes from
20130907 02:57:52< _Coffee> and really overlooked in eurpoe and north america
20130907 02:58:10< fabi> And you are wrong. The resources spend on fission research are by far higher than for regenerating power sources.
20130907 02:59:09< fabi> Most likely it is just not possible to do efficient fission power production on earth.
20130907 02:59:15< _Coffee> there's a project in europe that is supposed to come online in 2030
20130907 02:59:41< _Coffee> but the scientific focus is not there
20130907 02:59:53< fabi> That can't be changed, no matter how much political will and money you invest.
20130907 02:59:55< _Coffee> unlike your excellent efforts in LHC and LFI
20130907 03:02:10< _Coffee> um, what does this have to do with wesnoth though?
20130907 03:02:41< _Coffee> have the dwarves found a radiactive part of Knalga?
20130907 03:03:49< fabi> I am working on a total conversion of an old hex field strategy game (turn based) from a German company. I recently converted a building called "Nuclear Power Plant" that lured me into posting a long rant about it.
20130907 03:04:41< fabi> It is related to Wesnoth because I convert Wesnoth into a clone of that game.
20130907 03:06:03< _Coffee> well, you could just put a filter on the chimney with white smoke and take some gold for each building :D
20130907 03:06:29< _Coffee> stick a wind turbie on top for effect
20130907 03:06:50< fabi> ?
20130907 03:06:59< _Coffee> what are you doing with it?
20130907 03:07:13< _Coffee> what purpose does a nuclear power plant have in a game?
20130907 03:07:40< fabi> It produces energy. Energy is one of the 3 resources known in the game: Energy, Material, Fuel
20130907 03:08:07< _Coffee> I suppose you have different power sources as you progress?
20130907 03:08:16< fabi> Indeed.
20130907 03:08:33< _Coffee> you could replace it (if in the future) with fusion or antimatter-matter reactors
20130907 03:08:50< fabi> That is a good idea.
20130907 03:16:09< fabi> AI0867: By the way, crab_ seems to be missing lately, would you like to have a look at the merge request from gfgtdf? I have read my way through it and can't see any problems. Still the patch is quite huge, a second review won't hurt.
20130907 03:16:24< fabi> crab_ wanted to do the review in the first place.
20130907 03:17:42< AI0867> I'll take a look tomorrow
20130907 03:17:53< fabi> Cool, thank you.
20130907 03:20:19< AI0867> fabi: fission != fusion
20130907 03:20:59< fabi> Yes.
20130907 03:21:19< fabi> Fusion is the process in the sun.
20130907 03:21:31< fabi> Fission the one in our plants.
20130907 03:21:36< fabi> I mixed the terms.
20130907 03:21:52< fabi> But I guess _Coffee got everything right from the context.
20130907 03:22:06< _Coffee> of course :D
20130907 03:31:01< mattsc> _Coffee: btw (complete change of topic), I've started working on Fred again.  Not sure if anything good will come out of that, but I'll try for a little...
20130907 03:33:16< _Coffee> mattsc: I'll be happy to be a tester
20130907 03:34:06< _Coffee> I have some real life issues with changing workplaces and such at the moment, but should be around from time to time
20130907 03:34:16< mattsc> _Coffee: thanks.  It'll probably be a little until that is needed, but I'll keep you in mind.
20130907 03:35:24< mattsc> I don't have much time myself at the moment, so nothing's going to happen over night.
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20130907 07:10:28< justinzane> What is the intent of the "attack/defense_weight" value? It seems to be used to force the AI to de-prefer certain attack types when defending; but, that seems to defeat the purpose of having the AI choose the best attack in a situation.
20130907 07:21:39< fabi> justinzane: The ai can't judge certain effects like poison.
20130907 07:22:02< justinzane> Hmmm...
20130907 07:23:32< justinzane> I've been thinking that there should be a way for the AI to weight "individual worth" in the context of choosing defense attacks. 
20130907 07:26:07< justinzane> So that a point of damage to an experience unit is avoided more than that to a level 1 unit. 
20130907 07:28:07< justinzane> And so that "sentient" units -- humans, elves, dwarves, etc. -- will have a sense of self preservation while "dumb" units like skeletons, giant spiders, etc. will defend without regard for their own rick.
20130907 07:29:59< justinzane> I'm currently looking at [attack.cpp] battle_context::choose_defender_weapon and trying to figure out how to add this self-preservation into the calculation.
20130907 07:37:32< fabi> justinzane: Sounds like a good idea. You should talk to crab_ about it, once he returned.
20130907 07:39:51< justinzane> thanks.
20130907 07:40:55< justinzane> am I inderstanding that "fearless" "unit.is_fearless()" is solely about whether the AI should consider the TOD modifier?
20130907 07:43:06< Soliton> fearless is a trait.
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20130907 07:59:03< fabi> hi boucman
20130907 07:59:09< boucman> morning
20130907 07:59:39< fabi> boucman: It seems the timing value was never at the 150 claimed by the wiki. Your change was from 110 to 200.
20130907 07:59:54< boucman> hmm
20130907 08:00:07< boucman> I guess 150 was 110 plus some margin :P
20130907 08:00:41< fabi> 150 with a finite amount of exceptions :-)
20130907 08:03:08< justinzane> Soliton: yes, a trait, but I'm trying to see what code paths make use of that trait.
20130907 08:05:05< Soliton> grep?
20130907 08:05:36< Soliton> you may have to explain the bigger picture if you want more useful replies.
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20130907 08:18:35< justinzane> From a playing perspective, I would like to see units show a race/alignment/level based sense of self preservation. I'll try to write up a description of the specifics and post a link to it.
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20130907 09:44:11< thunderstruck> fabi: Good morning.
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20130907 12:14:02< fabi> hi thunderstruck
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20130907 12:18:15< thunderstruck> fabi: Did you have a look at those commits I've told you about yesterday?
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20130907 13:29:41< fabi> thunderstruck: nope, not yet
20130907 13:33:13< thunderstruck> fabi: Could you explain the reasoning behing "no_leader=yes" in some scenarios? E.g. The Elvish Treasury.
20130907 13:36:25< fabi> thunderstruck: Yes, I could :-)
20130907 13:38:02< fabi> thunderstruck: Give me some time to make a tea,
20130907 13:38:06< fabi> please
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20130907 13:41:05< thunderstruck> sure
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20130907 13:50:29< vultraz> thunderstruck: in my experience, no_leader is generally used for sides that only have pre-spawned units, units spawned by events, or leaders that appear later
20130907 13:52:52< zookeeper> it just means that the leader for a side isn't generated based on unit keys in the side tag
20130907 13:53:48< zookeeper> like usually your [side] contains type=Necromancer and canrecruit=yes etc which are used to create the leader unit, but if you have no_leader=yes then that won't happen. AFAIK it doesn't technically have anything to do with whether the side has or can have a leader or not.
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20130907 13:53:56< fabi> thunderstruck: Yes, I can only add to vultraz's and zookeeper's explanations that in case of Elvish Treasury the players might have started the campaign at chapter2 resulting in the recall list (which includes the leaders) being read from persistent variables and thus spawned later and not being generated from the [side] tag.
20130907 13:54:44< thunderstruck> fabi: Ok. So I will add support for no_leader to mp::connect.
20130907 13:54:57< thunderstruck> 'Cause now it assumes that a player should choose a leader.
20130907 13:55:13< fabi> Oh yes.
20130907 13:56:36< thunderstruck> fabi: Another thing is that by mp::connect standards, a player can choose a gender if side has more than one gender and if no default gender was provided.
20130907 13:56:37< vultraz> zookeeper: it doesn't. It's just a flag to stop the game derping because of expecting unit stats for the leader
20130907 13:56:41< fabi> thunderstruck: It is worth a lot that we have a test case for your work. Some earlier gsoc projects did a fine job on the c++ backend but lacked usability because the coder failed to implement a proper WML interface to them.
20130907 13:57:41< thunderstruck> fabi: Should LoW be that test case?
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20130907 13:59:29< fabi> thunderstruck: Yeah, it seems a good choice, being in mainline and also it demands a lot from the engine. Sadly it is only an example for a story driven cooperative MP campaign. Competitive MP campaigns have different demands.
20130907 14:01:44< thunderstruck> fabi: Hmm.. I guess I could find campaign authors on the forums which could be interested in explaining their demands.
20130907 14:02:08< fabi> thunderstruck: Yes, that is a pretty good idea.
20130907 14:02:52< vultraz> fabi: AFAIK there are very few mp campaigns
20130907 14:02:55< thunderstruck> fabi: Talking about LoW and gender thing I've mentioned above, the problem is that LoW doesn't provide default gender for leaders.
20130907 14:03:09< vultraz> thunderstruck: isn't male default?
20130907 14:03:11< thunderstruck> fabi: So if a leader is e.g. Elvish Archer, a player can choose its gender, although, I doubt that is wanted.
20130907 14:03:15< vultraz> thunderstruck: internally?
20130907 14:03:43< thunderstruck> vultraz: Probably. But MP has a bit different standards.
20130907 14:04:35< thunderstruck> vultraz: So if I would force to use default gender if there isn't one, MP scenarios and possibly some campaigns would get broken.
20130907 14:05:00< fabi> thunderstruck: Well, if the leader isn't chosen by the player in the MP connect lobby but hardcoded in WML, the unit_type's gender default should be the mp::connect gender default.
20130907 14:05:25< thunderstruck> fabi: Ok. I agree.
20130907 14:05:55< thunderstruck> fabi: I will just add that "Use map settings" should be on as well for that to happen.
20130907 14:06:48< fabi> hmmmmm
20130907 14:06:51< vultraz> thunderstruck: how?
20130907 14:07:46< thunderstruck> vultraz: Well, if "Use map settings" are off, player should be allowed to select a gender, no matter what.
20130907 14:08:08< vultraz> and if it's on, it would default to male if none is provided?
20130907 14:08:25< thunderstruck> vultraz: yes. That was what fabi said.
20130907 14:08:49< fabi> No, I said it should default to the unit_type's gender, that is not necessarily "male".
20130907 14:09:10< fabi> unit_type's default gender
20130907 14:09:23< thunderstruck> ahh
20130907 14:09:46< vultraz> oh, yeah
20130907 14:09:58< vultraz> I think that;s actually how it works
20130907 14:10:17< vultraz> makes more sense, too
20130907 14:15:04< thunderstruck> fabi: Are you going to be available after ~20 mins?
20130907 14:15:29< fabi> thunderstruck: Yes, I am available for the next hours.
20130907 14:15:56< thunderstruck> fabi: Ok. So I'm going AFK and I'll ask you about some things later.
20130907 14:15:57< fabi> thunderstruck: Most likely the whole day. I am working on Wesnoth stuff myself right now.
20130907 14:16:05< thunderstruck> cool
20130907 14:17:02< fabi> gfgtdf: Hi
20130907 14:17:12< gfgtdf> fabi: hi
20130907 14:20:33< fabi> gfgtdf: I have asked AI0867 to have a look at your merge request and he kindly agreed to do so.
20130907 14:21:01< gfgtdf> fabi: ok ty
20130907 14:21:17< fabi> gfgtdf: Well, AI0867 deserves your gratitude.
20130907 14:21:44< gfgtdf> AI0867: ty :)
20130907 14:21:53< gfgtdf> fabi: when is normaly online?
20130907 14:22:00< gfgtdf> is he*
20130907 14:22:36< fabi> gfgtdf: Hard to tell. He lives in Europe not that far away from my place.
20130907 14:23:33< gfgtdf> so he is german too?
20130907 14:23:39< gfgtdf> fabi: ^
20130907 14:24:14< fabi> gfgtdf: No, he is Dutch. But he is learning German iirc.
20130907 14:25:18< gfgtdf> fabi: "iirc" ?
20130907 14:25:28< fabi> if I remember correctly
20130907 14:27:00< gfgtdf> fabi: ok
20130907 14:29:01< fabi> gfgtdf: Maybe you want to join #wesnoth-de permanently as well. There is not much traffic in there but the best way to change that is gathering more members. AI0867 can also be found there usually.
20130907 14:31:10< gfgtdf> fabi: do you know hot to configute chatzilla to join a chennel everytime you start it?
20130907 14:31:23< gfgtdf> how*, channel*
20130907 14:31:50< fabi> gfgtdf: Sorry, no. I have used chatzilla myself years ago but switched to konversation. I do not remember much of it.
20130907 14:32:36< gfgtdf> fabi: ok i'll try myself
20130907 14:35:16< gfgtdf> fabi: testing
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20130907 14:37:01< gfgtdf> fabi: somehow it worked
20130907 14:37:11< fabi> :-)
20130907 14:42:29< gfgtdf> fabi; about the hotkeys, currently int th epreferenced menu, the hotkeys are ordered in 3 sections: game, editor and general do you tihnk it would be better to put the wmlmenu hotkeys in game or make a new section?
20130907 14:42:52< gfgtdf> "int th epreferenced" "in the preferences"
20130907 14:44:17< fabi> gfgtdf: Well, the "sections" aren't arbitrary. They are "scopes".
20130907 14:45:21< fabi> You can introduce more scopes. But the current system works like: general scopes are considered everywhere while game and editor are disjunct.
20130907 14:45:30< gfgtdf> fabi: i know but for the user who uses the preferenced they are also "sections" or "tabs"
20130907 14:46:41< gfgtdf> fabi: gotta eat
20130907 14:47:11< fabi> Yes, but I think the user understands that general consumes the hotkey everywhere while hotkey_actions can be defined in editor and game to the same key.
20130907 14:47:38< fabi> How would you handle an extra scope?
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20130907 14:55:02< thunderstruck> fabi: I've wanted to ask if News From the Front does actually belong to chapter 
20130907 14:55:04< thunderstruck> 4
20130907 14:55:51< thunderstruck> Looking at things, it seems that it could be the last scenario of chapter 3.
20130907 14:55:58< thunderstruck> And it is also just a story scenario.
20130907 14:56:51< fabi> Indeed it could also be the last scenario of 3
20130907 14:56:58< fabi> or being merged with revelations.
20130907 14:57:46< thunderstruck> fabi: I think that you should look into that, because I don't want to mess with the story.
20130907 14:58:40< fabi> I would keep it at the first of 4. Or is there any special reason in your mind why it should be moved?
20130907 15:00:30< thunderstruck> fabi: There might be confusion in MP, because chapter 4 is name "The Alliance" and upon opening the "Human Alliance" you see a usual black screen with chapter's name and a map with journey.
20130907 15:00:54< thunderstruck> chapter's 4 name is*
20130907 15:01:34< fabi> Sorry, I don't get the point.
20130907 15:01:35< thunderstruck> So, when you open "News from the Front", you get a different thing when you've expected.
20130907 15:01:55< thunderstruck> fabi: Ok. I will try to be more verbose.
20130907 15:02:40< fabi> "News from the Front" should start like: LoW chapter4: The alliance \n News from the Front.
20130907 15:03:06< thunderstruck> fabi: Every first scenario of every chapter has a [story] tag to display a black screen with chapter's name and also display a journey map.
20130907 15:03:26< fabi> That is how it is supposed to be.
20130907 15:03:30< thunderstruck> fabi: but it's different with the chapter 4.
20130907 15:03:51< thunderstruck> news from the front doesn't have that
20130907 15:03:58< fabi> I see.
20130907 15:04:05< thunderstruck> instead human alliance has that.
20130907 15:04:14< fabi> Oh
20130907 15:04:20< fabi> Yes, that needs to change.
20130907 15:09:56< fabi> thunderstruck: Okay, I think "Revelations" is indeed a good end for chapter3. The party receives the book and plans some time into the future.
20130907 15:10:57< fabi> thunderstruck: While "News from the Front" is a good start for 4 because it interrupts the plans and tells why the battle with the humans comes first, before executing what was planned in "Revelations".
20130907 15:12:21< thunderstruck> fabi: in that case, the journey.cfg might need to be updated.
20130907 15:12:30< fabi> Oh hell.
20130907 15:12:58< thunderstruck> fabi: I'm not sure about this. I'm just saying it *might*.
20130907 15:13:01< fabi> I had problems with the python tool that produces the cfg.
20130907 15:13:39< fabi> Was glad that I managed to get a useful result finally.
20130907 15:14:07< vultraz> there's a tool for journeymaps?
20130907 15:14:19< fabi> yes
20130907 15:14:22< thunderstruck> Well, it is no big deal for me. I just wanted to point out. And this also affects SP.
20130907 15:14:32< vultraz> where?
20130907 15:14:42< fabi> tools?
20130907 15:15:11< fabi> trackplacer
20130907 15:15:11< vultraz> trackplacer?
20130907 15:15:17< vultraz> ok
20130907 15:18:34< vultraz> hm...python error on launch, with both 27 and 33
20130907 15:19:25< vultraz>   File "\Program Files\Battle for Wesnoth 1.11.6\data\tools\trackplacer", line 122
20130907 15:19:27< vultraz>     def within(x, y, (l, t, r, d)):
20130907 15:19:28< vultraz>                      ^
20130907 15:19:30< vultraz> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
20130907 15:20:04< fabi> hmmm
20130907 15:20:33< vultraz> (the 27 error is different, something about a missing module)
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20130907 16:48:30< jamit> justinzane: When you mentioned "self preservation", did you mean defensively? Something like an elvish druid choosing "ensnare" over "thorns" when defending?
20130907 16:49:37< jamit> I ask because that idea was brought up in the forums, so I tested it out. Sent a team of elvish druids and sorceresses against a mirror team. One side had the default AI, the other had an AI that chose the slowing attack on defense.
20130907 16:49:49< jamit> The default AI won fairly consistently.
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20130907 17:15:53< justinzane> jamit: very interesting result. 
20130907 17:16:57< justinzane> I meant both defensively and offensively for AI controlled units and defensively for player/AI controlled units.
20130907 17:22:17< justinzane> It kinda makes me crazy when level 1 elvish shamans under AI control mindlessly attack Death Knights or Great Trolls. That sort of unit should have the "sense" to hang back and heal rather than go kamikaze. 
20130907 17:24:36< justinzane> jamit: looking at the defensive weapon choice, it seems that "self-preservation" by choosing ensnare needs to be tied to an estimation of the ability to safely retreat at the next turn vs. the possibility of killing the sole opponent immediately. 
20130907 17:25:45< fabi> Is there any precondition for fog=yes?
20130907 17:26:12< justinzane> jamit: I'd also be interested inseeing what your test team of druids did vs a group of undead as compared to the default team vs the same undead team.
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20130907 17:34:05< fabi> zookeeper: fog=yes isn't working in a mp scenario but I can activate it on the ingame command line. Is there any precondition for it?
20130907 17:41:17< zookeeper> use map settings being on, i suppose. no idea if there's something else.
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20130907 18:06:01< jamit> justinzane: Maybe what you are looking for is a "healer AI" instead of a general change to everyone's AI.
20130907 18:06:36< jamit> justinzane: I think mattsc did something like that in the "hold the pass" scenario (or whatever he called it).
20130907 18:08:55< jamit> If the AI actually played healers as supporting units, then them surviving one more round would be more significant than if they were just going to attack and die next round anyway.
20130907 18:19:58< jamit> Minor flood coming in. If I messed up, it could be bad, so I wanted it to be easy to bisect these changes:
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20130907 18:20:25< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 4c2d447e7f14 / src/game_events/handlers.cpp: Refactor commit_wmi_commands() in preparation for future changes. http://git.io/Ui0YOg
20130907 18:20:25< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 8662c23d0920 / src/game_events/handlers.cpp: Introduce a variable for readability (and fewer dereferences). http://git.io/iEuLnA
20130907 18:20:26< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master fe752f9f0c55 / src/ (game_events/handlers.cpp gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make command private. http://git.io/M-gZWg
20130907 18:20:27< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master bb6f823a61dc / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp play_controller.cpp): Create wml_menu_item::can_show() from part of play_controller.cpp. http://git.io/DZqYtw
20130907 18:20:28< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 46a7297e90b8 / src/ (game_events/action_wml.cpp gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): Create wml_menu_item::update() from part of action_wml.cpp. http://git.io/RSjofQ
20130907 18:20:29< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 6211b6903093 / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): Create wml_menu_item::to_config from part of wmi_container::to_config. http://git.io/SdkKxQ
20130907 18:20:31< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 62d529a69f9e / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make filter_location and show_if private. http://git.io/SQ1f2g
20130907 18:20:33< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 20c60b509414 / src/variable.cpp: Some tweaks to vconfig construction and documentation. http://git.io/rX0AEw
20130907 18:20:35< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 070a1f158eab / src/ (gamestatus.cpp variable.hpp): Allow vconfig to convert to boolean, similar to the way config does. http://git.io/DMSoFg
20130907 18:20:37< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 576eebd869fb / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp play_controller.cpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make needs_select private. http://git.io/duPsHQ
20130907 18:20:39< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 0a6ea1ee5ae6 / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp play_controller.cpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make description private. http://git.io/F6sBag
20130907 18:20:41< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 44e7662068f5 / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp play_controller.cpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make image private. http://git.io/X9VxMg
20130907 18:20:43< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 13c9a2e4ba6a / src/ (game_events/handlers.cpp gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make event_id private. http://git.io/O-vjGw
20130907 18:20:45< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master d2a886529484 / src/ (game_events/handlers.cpp gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp play_controller.cpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: make name private. http://git.io/3aaBmQ
20130907 18:20:47< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 5882d4926e0d / src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): Move the intialization of wml_menu_item::event_name_ to its constructor. http://git.io/Km7EqA
20130907 18:20:49< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master a0709b002e4d / src/gamestatus.cpp: Don't bother clearing a map we just default constructed. http://git.io/vxebYA
20130907 18:20:51< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 27d0b430bdb2 / src/ (gamestatus.hpp play_controller.hpp): wml_menu_item refactoring: change from "struct" to "class". http://git.io/_TRnQg
20130907 18:21:41< jamit> ^ Basically, I changed wml_menu_item to use object-oriented programming techniques, plus added the ability to test vconfigs in if statements.
20130907 18:22:00< jamit> The vconfig change is modeled after the way config does it.
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20130907 18:31:29< vultraz> jamit: you wouldn't happen to know if it's possible to move the implementation of conditional actions to lua (like what was done with wml actions) so users could register their own conditional tags?
20130907 18:33:32< jamit> vultraz: Don't know. I try to avoid messing with Lua at the C/C++ level.
20130907 18:34:08< jamit> vultraz: Do you have an example of a condition that the current tags don't handle well (or at all)?
20130907 18:41:37< jamit> thunderstruck: In the player's changelog, could I change "Sides can be configured after a campaign's scenario has been won in multiplayer." to "Sides in a multiplayer campaign can be configured after each scenario."? Your version just has a lot of passive voice going on.
20130907 18:42:34< jamit> (And if that is not an equivalent statement, then your version is easy to misread.)
20130907 18:42:41< vultraz> jamit: well, I have a case in my UMC, where I have a lua tag that goes through all indexes of unit.variables.item and looks for a matching id= key. However, it doesn't work in [if] blocks because I have no way to wire it into the internal conditional actions table
20130907 18:43:03< thunderstruck> jamit: Yes, that sounds better.
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20130907 18:45:06< jamit> thunderstruck: OK. I did a few grammar fixes too. The one that had really caught my eye was "splitted" -- the past tense of "split" is "split".
20130907 18:46:00< jamit> vultraz: Hmm... doing a wml match on [variables][item]id=key would only match the first index?
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20130907 18:46:14< vultraz> it's a for loop
20130907 18:47:08< irker583> wesnoth: JaMiT wesnoth-old:master 8a9065bb9d9f / changelog players_changelog: Grammar and readability improvements. http://git.io/N9BhRw
20130907 18:47:41< vultraz> it could be done in WML, but it would be incredibly cumbersome, which is why I tried to create a custom tag
20130907 18:48:40< vultraz> but there is no way to make the game treat it as a conditional tag; only those defined in C++ work
20130907 18:49:18< jamit> Well, the way I see it, the question is whether the conditions should be opened up to Lua customization, or should the existing conditions be expanded.
20130907 18:49:18< thunderstruck> jamit: Thanks.
20130907 18:50:38< jamit> I suppose after finding a matching id= key, you return its index?
20130907 18:53:09< jamit> Hmm... maybe a more useful thing to do would be to have Lua hooks in formulas, plus a generic condition that accepts a formula. That could even make some variable checks less cumbersome.
20130907 18:53:34< vultraz> jamit: here's the function: http://pastebin.com/VCC8jHnA
20130907 18:54:18< jamit> That might not have been clear. I was thinking of being able to test something like   condition="$(<lua function> != 0)"
20130907 18:55:10< jamit> Or maybe just expand the existing variable checks so that they can take a formula instead of a variable name.
20130907 18:55:59< _8680_> Or, generalize that into support for arbitrary Lua expressions in formulae?
20130907 18:57:33< vultraz> shadowm and I were thinking more of just completely having it in lua, so users could just access wesnoth.conditonal_actions to register new ones
20130907 18:57:54< jamit> Something like that. I'm just not familiar with what would fit the implementation well.
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20130907 19:24:53< mattsc> jamit, justinzane: yes, the bottleneck defense AI does use healers behind the lines, but only in a very specific situation.  There's also a more general healer support micro AI available.
20130907 19:24:58< mattsc> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs#Healer_Support_Micro_AI_.28ai_type.3Dhealer_support.29
20130907 19:26:08< mattsc> However, as with jamit's experience, if you put an AI with healer support up against one without, the former loses more often than not (in an average situation; there are exceptions)
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20130907 20:57:40< justinzane> mattsc, jamit: The healers thing was meant primarily as an example, though I'll mess with some of your suggestions. To abastact, what I'd like to see is an AI that is "smarter" about the Wesnoth mythology. 
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20130907 21:06:26< justinzane> And, for "smart units" -- Liches, Mages, Druids, Royal Guards, etc. -- an AI that is more chess-like. In the story sense of the game, no Lich who has spent millenia preserving itself with the most disgusting of magic would mindlessly get within range of anything truly dangerous to it. I'm playing a couple of different scenarios and trying to put specific instances together so that I have a more comprehensive plan. 
20130907 21:06:52< justinzane> But, thank you all for your time.
20130907 21:12:46< justinzane> On another topic: combat hit/damage calcuations, I was looking to see if it would be possible to substitute a parameterized Pareto-variate random generator for the standard calculations. The logic behind this is that the Pareto distribution seems to reflect actual "real-human-world" combat consequences better. For example, while a boxer may generate a knockout for 1 in 1000 punches, he/she will generate a minimally damaging jab for 900 in 
20130907 21:12:48< justinzane> 1000 punches. 
20130907 21:13:02< justinzane> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
20130907 21:15:02< justinzane> A simplistic graphical example is here: https://gist.github.com/justinzane/6478386
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20130907 21:24:55< mattsc> justinzane: I meant the pointer to the healer AIs as examples as well.  They are specifically set up for healers, but it can be done with other units too, of course.
20130907 21:26:38< mattsc> As for anticipating what happens on the next move, that's difficult, but a few of us have been trying to work on that too (only semi-successfully so far though).  The best current example is our experimental "grunt rush on Freelands AI" (dubbed Fred):  https://github.com/mattsc/AI-demos/blob/master/lua/grunt_rush_Freelands_S1_engine.lua
20130907 21:27:30< mattsc> Feel free to have a look and make suggestions; or participate, we could certainly use some help  :)
20130907 21:29:12< mattsc> (btw, the code is quite a mess because this is very much work in progress.  once we actually get it to do something useful, I'll deal with cleaning it up)
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20130907 22:02:42< justinzane> as i always tell my wife, "mess is good" :)
20130907 22:03:00< justinzane> funny, though, she never agrees...
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20130907 22:58:58< AI0867> gfgtdf: replied
20130907 23:03:53< fabi> AI0867: Thank you for handling it.
20130907 23:04:12< fabi> justinzane: :-)
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20130907 23:08:14< gfgtdf> AI0867: the pr didnt contain the changes in the game_events.cpp (~15 lines) because they cuased merging conflicts, but because it causes merging conflicts anyway since today i tihnk i can add them as well, deleting the commented-out code and the compiler-specific pragmas, should be o problem.
20130907 23:09:17< gfgtdf> AI0867: you aked for a usecase, you can use every scenario that uses wml menus like Loti or GambCiv
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20130907 23:19:01< gfgtdf> AI0867: i have added a commit with that changes
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--- Log closed Sun Sep 08 00:00:23 2013