--- Log opened Wed Sep 25 00:00:26 2013
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20130925 00:18:00< fabi> hi boucman
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20130925 00:32:56< fabi> vultraz: I need a little help with images, but not for core Wesnoth.
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20130925 06:08:54< justinzane> So, more silly questions... Why are halos tracked by an `int` "handle" instead of a pointer/reference? 
20130925 06:09:14< justinzane> in halo.[ch]pp
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20130925 06:28:20< justinzane> And why class effects buried in an anon ns in halp.cpp?
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20130925 06:47:58< fabi> justinzane: Maybe the int handle survives memory deallocation better. 
20130925 06:48:18< fabi> justinzane: Pointers in c++ are far more fragile than those java references.
20130925 06:49:00< fabi> justinzane: Just in case you learned on that platform to code object oriented imperative programming. 
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20130925 06:56:06< justinzane> fabi: I learned C back when Sparcs and Alphas were not yet created and VAXen ruled the earth... or at least crappy colleges' data centers. :)
20130925 06:56:33< fabi> justinzane: May I ask how old you are?
20130925 06:58:00< justinzane> fabi: you may be right about the purpose for using `int` handles. I just wish that someone would comment these things somewhere.
20130925 06:58:19 * justinzane Born in 1971
20130925 06:58:57< fabi> 78 here
20130925 07:01:11< justinzane> I don't enjoy java or c++ that much because they both seem to lead to very verbose code. They are both excellent languages, though I dislike relying on the JVM. I'm just a hobby hack who prefers C or python.
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20130925 07:02:18< shadowm> "Pointers in C++"... yeah, you know you can use smart pointers for that.
20130925 07:02:52< shadowm> Half of the time, when something in Wesnoth is done some way, it's because nobody thought of a better way at the time. The halos implementation is all legacy code and the cause of many a rendering glitch.
20130925 07:03:09< justinzane> hmmm. that makes sense
20130925 07:04:14< justinzane> have there been any "bulk refactoring/cleanup" revisions?
20130925 07:04:41< shadowm> Myriads.
20130925 07:04:47< justinzane> or is development just iterative replacement of the oldest and squeakiest wheels?
20130925 07:04:57< justinzane> ahh
20130925 07:05:37< shadowm> Development also involves adding new features, if the changelog and git log are anything to go by... ;)
20130925 07:07:08< justinzane> shadowm: Of course, that's the fun part.
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20130925 13:08:13< irker335> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master fb51fe6b8fe8 / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vc project update http://git.io/9LVpWA
20130925 13:08:13< irker335> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master d03195686c25 / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: cb project update http://git.io/XK4qUA
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20130925 13:21:48< Soliton> justinzane: (documentation) patches welcome ;-)
20130925 13:22:22< Soliton> justinzane: documentation can also mean TODOs and questions about why stuff is done a certain way.
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20130925 13:30:18< anonymissimus> flix: MSVC doesn't like your \u2B24 in your void recruitment::show_important_hexes() const
20130925 13:30:38< anonymissimus> what actions can I do to call that function ?
20130925 13:31:05< anonymissimus> it's not quite problematic but could you use something else
20130925 13:32:00< anonymissimus> I suppose I should set the character set that's used to unicode (currently it's "not specified") but that causes lots of other problems
20130925 13:33:28< anonymissimus> I mean, it's only a warning that I could suppress and be gone with it, but at some spot someone might execute that function with an MSVC build
20130925 13:34:14< anonymissimus> wesbot: seen flix
20130925 13:34:14< wesbot> anonymissimus: The person with the nick flix last spoke 17h 34m ago.  15h 6m ago they left with the message: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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20130925 14:30:34< Crab_> anonymissimus: if you run wesnoth in debug mode, the new recruitment would print some dots on important locations
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20130925 15:30:40< mattsc> So how does the ellipse thing work now?  I've now encountered several mainline scenarios (e.g. DW::Flaming_Sword) where we get the image not found error when a character is promoted to side leader.
20130925 15:31:22< mattsc> In this case, it complains about 'misc/ellipse-hero-leader-selected-top.png' (and the same for *bottom.png) not being there.
20130925 15:32:14< mattsc> As I said a couple days ago, I'd fix it, but I haven't followed things enough to know whether I need to fix this in the scenario, in the IS_HERO macro or somewhere else
20130925 15:33:13< irker335> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master 545c9b205777 / / (5 files in 4 dirs): Hang in new recruitment CA. http://git.io/9KoNYw
20130925 15:33:52< flix> Crab_: Hi! Could you take a look? ^
20130925 15:35:12< Crab_> flix: will do
20130925 15:35:19< irker335> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 50bb487e31f2 / projectfiles/Xcode/Wesnoth.xcodeproj/project.pbxproj: Update Xcode project file http://git.io/KSgCqQ
20130925 15:37:13< mattsc> flix: hi.  Was there anything specific you wanted me to test?
20130925 15:38:50< flix> mattsc: Hi, no, you can test the aspects or test the CA in mainline.
20130925 15:39:34< mattsc> So, mostly see whether it does what I expect it to do?
20130925 15:40:45< Crab_> flix: added a few comments to the commit, in github
20130925 15:44:32< mattsc> flix, Crab_: does this mean that the mainline campaigns now need to be checked for balance?
20130925 15:45:05< Crab_> mattsc: yes. they needed that anyway, but they are now more unbalanced than before
20130925 15:46:11< Crab_> mattsc: however, I'd say that there's not that much changed for players who want to keep a balanced army.
20130925 15:46:29< mattsc> Crab_: okay.  And yes, I've slowly been replaying all the mainline campaigns (in "chronological order" :P ) and they definitely have balance issues.  Some more so than others.
20130925 15:47:04< Crab_> mattsc: also, it's now less necessary to limit the AI's recruitment, since it looks like it recruits more of a variety of units even if it can recruit L2s
20130925 15:47:39< irker335> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master db51c3fbbe52 / src/ai/recruitment/recruitment.cpp: Do minor changes to recruitment CA. http://git.io/GM5htg
20130925 15:47:42< Crab_> mattsc: and, there might be need (depending on the default values) to let the AI always recruit on turn 1, which is important for balance in some scenarios.
20130925 15:48:06< Crab_> mattsc: the biggest concern is that there's a bug somewhere so the recruitment doesn't work on scenario X
20130925 15:48:17< mattsc> Crab_: yes, it's amazing what difference a small change can make.
20130925 15:48:46< mattsc> Crab_: so what you're saying is I should replay all the campaigns again.  :)
20130925 15:48:48< Crab_> mattsc: one such example (fixed) was "LoW2: dwarves have no enemies, thus there was a assertion failure". there shouldn't be more, but weird things may happen.
20130925 15:49:18< Crab_> mattsc: well, it's an endless process :))) 
20130925 15:49:40< Crab_> mattsc: but it should be more fun :)
20130925 15:49:51< mattsc> Crab_: yes
20130925 15:50:40< flix> Crab_: Recruitment isn't working in LoW2 yet . Could you take another look? The problem is this: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter1/02_Hostile_Mountains.cfg#L337
20130925 15:51:05< mattsc> Crab_: yes.  (And just as an example, I recently made one minor change to Fred and he went from winning 82% to 97% against Northerners on Freelands...)
20130925 15:52:10< flix> Crab_: The FAI recruitment was plugged in there via the "recruitment"-aspect (not supported anymore because of this ministage redirection)
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20130925 16:05:29< flix> Crab_: What would you suggest to solve this? Is there a way to activate the FAI engine in LoW2 in another way? Or should it use default recruitment from now on?
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20130925 16:19:29< irker335> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master 9684ff377be4 / players_changelog: Update players_changelog. http://git.io/I3l4JA
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20130925 17:13:25< justinzane> Sonja Henne's Tutu - `#ifdef OS2`
20130925 17:14:08< justinzane> Can it be true that Wesnoth actually still supports OS/2?
20130925 17:18:41< thunderstruck> justinzane: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Download#Stable_.28older_versions.29
20130925 17:20:15< justinzane> Wow! 
20130925 17:20:27< thunderstruck> I guess that they stopped maintaining support for OS/2.
20130925 17:20:39< justinzane> Is there anyreason to keep that in for 1.11+?
20130925 17:21:19< justinzane> not that it much matters, apparently only 3 lines in game.cpp are OS2 related.
20130925 17:21:36< thunderstruck> I'm new to Wesnoth myself so I can't tell for sure.
20130925 17:29:40< justinzane> That was a funny historical moment first thing in the morning... Last time I saw OS/2 it was at a US Marines support facility, networked with Banyan Vines.  
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20130925 17:44:07< Crab_> flix: (sorry for the delay,was a bit afk). it should use default recruitment.
20130925 17:44:48< Crab_> flix: dwarves there should not recruit anything until they're at war, then they should start recruiting. formula ai recruitment was used because it was stronger then default recruitment
20130925 17:45:17< flix> Crab_: Okay. I'll change it.
20130925 17:46:30< flix> Crab_: Is there a procedure to declare macros as deprecated? {AI_FORMULA_AI_EXPERIMENTAL_RECRUITMENT} is not valid anymore.
20130925 17:48:18< flix> Crab_: Maybe a WML deprecation massage should pop up, as soon as a deprecated aspect like 'recruitment' is used?
20130925 17:49:11< Crab_> flix: deprecation messages can be added to macros, yes. bonus points if the old macro still works for 1-2 minor versions.
20130925 17:50:09< Crab_> flix: however, the most important point is for the AI to recruit, the exact recruitment type is not necessary
20130925 17:50:36< Crab_> flix: so, if someone used formula ai recruitment and the macro still works as in 'ai recruits something, using the new default recruitment' it's good enough for backward compatability here.
20130925 17:52:02< flix> Crab_: okay
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20130925 18:11:05< irker335> wesnoth: flix wesnoth-old:master e07dce8477b2 / / (2 files in 2 dirs): Replace recruitment CA of Hostile_Mountains in LoW http://git.io/iyI0qg
20130925 18:11:27< flix> Crab_: ^ That fixes LoW2.
20130925 18:11:34< Crab_> great
20130925 18:12:21< Crab_> wouldn't it just work without all this?
20130925 18:12:49< Crab_> e.g. isn't the behavior "no enemies -> don't recruit anything" by default?
20130925 18:12:56< Crab_> after you've fixed the assertion failure
20130925 18:14:39< flix> Crab_: Oh good point. But I think it's "no enemies -> don't do combat analysis -> recruit units equally"
20130925 18:14:47< flix> Crab_: You want me to change this?
20130925 18:23:15< irker335> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 4b3be3246b5f / data/campaigns/Dead_Water/scenarios/10_The_Flaming_Sword.cfg: Dead Water::The Flaming Sword: fix missing ellipse issue for Caladon http://git.io/6tXnuQ
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20130925 18:30:27< flix> Crab_: I have to go now. I stay online and will read your answer later.
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20130925 18:40:27< Crab_> flix: no, no need to change
20130925 18:40:34< Crab_> flix: I was just wondering what the behavior is
20130925 18:40:56< Crab_> flix: "no enemies -> don't do combat analysis -> recruit units equally" is good
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20130925 20:28:48< mattsc> flix: your recruiter doesn't behave differently in debug mode, right?  (other than that those crosses are displayed)
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20130925 21:22:27< mattsc> flix: hi, I had a question for you while you were offline
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20130925 22:40:32< justinzane> So, I noticed that `sdl_utils.cpp:scale_surface()` is being called unnecessarily **a lot**.
20130925 22:42:22< justinzane> By adding a printf, I get:    total calls = 2878,  unscaled_width = 1685, unscaled_height = 2199, and totally unscaled = 1379
20130925 22:43:37< justinzane> That means that about half (~48%) of the calls to scale_surface are just wasting time. 
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20130925 22:48:30< irker057> wesnoth: Andrius Silinskas wesnoth-old:master 213677b7101e / RELEASE_NOTES: Updated RELEASE_NOTES. http://git.io/xsR7HQ
20130925 22:50:11< justinzane> At, according to my napkin, 450000 cycles per call, that is a lot of wasted cycles. Am I missing something obvious here?
20130925 22:59:12< thunderstruck> A small notice: I've changed my github nick from "thunder" to "thunderstruck" and it seems that in a single commit page it is showing an old nick. So, don't be surprised if you get 404 when clicking on my nick in that page.
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20130925 23:08:33< flix> mattsc: Hello again. Debug mode on or off, makes no difference.
20130925 23:08:36< justinzane> I see a number of `#ifdef PANDORA` statements. What would define PANDORA? Not the online music service I presume
20130925 23:10:08< thunderstruck> justinzane: http://openpandora.org/
20130925 23:10:48< mattsc> flix: and the AI does not spend all possible gold on recruiting?
20130925 23:11:22< flix> mattsc: depends if the aspect "recruitment_save_gold" is active or not
20130925 23:11:34< mattsc> I mean the default CA
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20130925 23:13:26< mattsc> flix: I think there might be a problem then of the "what works against the AI doesn't necessarily work against a human player" sort
20130925 23:13:34< justinzane> thunderstruck: ahh. thanks
20130925 23:14:00< flix> mattsc: There it's active from the 2nd turn on. So yes, the AI may not recruit if it had figured out that it has 'more units' then the enemy
20130925 23:14:26< flix> mattsc: explain
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20130925 23:15:06< mattsc> I tested the new default recruiting on the first scenario of SotBE.  The AI sent 3 units at a time at me, let me slaughter them, then sent another 3 units and so on.  At the end, it even sent its side leader out without first recruiting, while it still had 100 gold left.
20130925 23:15:13< mattsc> It made the scenario trivially easy.
20130925 23:15:45< mattsc> ... with several turns of no recruiting in between ^
20130925 23:19:57< flix> mattsc: How many units did you have in this scenario?
20130925 23:21:19< mattsc> flix: I hired 1 keep full (7 units incl. the leader) and started with those, with the intention of possibly hiring more units at the center keep, but that never became necessary.
20130925 23:21:28< mattsc> flix: do you want me to send you the replay?
20130925 23:21:46< flix> mattsc: oh, yes please!
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20130925 23:22:26< mattsc> flix: okay - I stopped playing seriously and just tried what would happen half-way through, but I think it will show what's (not) happening.
20130925 23:24:54< mattsc> flix PM sent
20130925 23:25:31< mattsc> flix: it gives some sort of OOS error at the beginning, but if you just dismiss that message, the replay works for me.
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20130925 23:32:49< flix> mattsc: There is definitely something wrong there. Let it briefly play it myself to see the debug outputs. 
20130925 23:34:03< mattsc> flix: okay, np.  I'll have to leave for a while in ~30 min though and will likely not be back while you're still up.
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20130925 23:48:36< flix> mattsc: Okay, it's no bug. But obviously I have to adjust some things. Do you want me to explain what's going wrong there?
20130925 23:49:03< mattsc> flix: yes
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20130925 23:50:17< flix> mattsc: Did you read the explanation for gold saving thing? (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Recruitment#How_it_works_2)
20130925 23:51:42< mattsc> flix: yes (I think)
20130925 23:52:18< mattsc> I can't really believe that the AI considered itseflf above the threshold there at the end though
20130925 23:52:47< flix> mattsc: The problem is that this enemy leader is quite expensive (35 gold). So my AI things that the armies are balanced even if it has not recruited so many units yet.
20130925 23:53:10< flix> mattsc: The threshold was slightly above 0.7 when I played it.
20130925 23:53:19< mattsc> flix: ah, okay, that makes sense
20130925 23:53:25< flix> s/threshold/ratio
20130925 23:53:51< mattsc> It also explains why it works against another AI, but not necessarily against a cautious human player.
20130925 23:53:57< flix> mattsc: So what I will do is the following:
20130925 23:54:17< flix> 1. Don't count the leaders when calculating the ratio
20130925 23:55:21< flix> 2. Raise the radius around a leader where the AI switches to the state LEADER_IN_DANGER (I think from 3 to 5)
20130925 23:55:37< flix> 3. Raise the default end threshold from 0.7 to 0.8
20130925 23:56:14< mattsc> flix: I would have suggested 1 and 3 also  :)
20130925 23:56:26< mattsc> ... although I am not sure that 0.8 is high enough.
20130925 23:58:00< flix> mattsc: What would you suggest to set the 'begin' and 'end' threshold? While testing it made not such a big difference...
20130925 23:59:51< mattsc> flix: I don't know, but I'd expect 1.0 to be reasonable.  That's really not based on much of anything though, other than that the rest of the AI is set up for aggressive play and usually does better when it is given a chance to use that.
--- Log closed Thu Sep 26 00:00:05 2013