--- Log opened Tue Oct 22 00:00:59 2013
20131022 00:10:20< mattsc> bumbadadabum, vultraz, I forgot who else uses Micro AIs:  I am wondering if it makes sense to get rid of the guardian_type= and animal_type= keys and break up all animals and guardians into separate AIs.
20131022 00:10:22< mattsc> The way it is is a leftover from when there was no way of combining different MAIs for the same side.
20131022 00:10:42< mattsc> It would be (yet another) backward compatibility breaking change though ...
20131022 00:11:53< bumbadadabum> mattsc: Split them if that means they work better
20131022 00:12:24< bumbadadabum> This makes it so I can use multiple kinds of guardians on one side, right?
20131022 00:13:21< mattsc> The reason why it was set up like this originally (in 1.11.2) is so that you could use different guardians on the same side.
20131022 00:13:40< bumbadadabum> oh right
20131022 00:13:46< bumbadadabum> guardians are set per unit
20131022 00:13:48< mattsc> Sometime later (maybe 1.11.5?) I changed it so that any MAIs can be used together on the same side.
20131022 00:14:11< mattsc> So from that point of view nothing will change.
20131022 00:14:11< bumbadadabum> mattsc: Maybe don't split the guardians
20131022 00:14:21< bumbadadabum> The animals aren't per unit, right?
20131022 00:14:36< mattsc> some are some aren't.
20131022 00:14:53< bumbadadabum> I'm not sure
20131022 00:15:06< bumbadadabum> I'm a bit too tired atm to really think about
20131022 00:15:07< mattsc> But I am about to change the guardians so that they will (internally) not be per unit any more either.
20131022 00:15:16< mattsc> bumbadadabum: ok, makes sense.  :)
20131022 00:15:38< bumbadadabum> I'll think about it
20131022 00:15:43< bumbadadabum> tomorrow
20131022 00:15:55< mattsc> bumbadadabum: to summarize it: from a functionality point of view, nothing will change.
20131022 00:16:19< mattsc> It would get rid of the (pretty much unnecessary) guardian_type and animal_type keys though.
20131022 00:17:36< mattsc> So, instead of [micro_ai] ai_type=animals animal_type=swarm ... you would use [micro_ai] ai_type=swarm ...
20131022 00:17:50< bumbadadabum> yeah
20131022 00:17:55< bumbadadabum> perhaps that's better
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20131022 00:23:06< vultraz> mattsc: yeah, that sounds good
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20131022 00:35:16< mattsc> bumbadadabum, vultraz: actually, come to think of it, it is quite simple to have the old syntax still work for a couple releases also and produce a deprecation message.
20131022 00:35:23< mattsc> So I'll definitely do it then.
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20131022 03:15:28< irker553> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 361e56c6a125 / data/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Micro AIs: split up Animals MAI engine file http://git.io/ysTjMg
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20131022 15:00:11< bumbadadabum> Hey everyone
20131022 15:00:31< bumbadadabum> So a few days ago, I made a commit that changed the Death Knight to use the normal skeleton resistances
20131022 15:01:00< bumbadadabum> This was reverted, because I didn't talk it thought and it might have been intentional
20131022 15:01:42< bumbadadabum> I talked about it with Espreon today, and he agrees that the Death Knight should have the normal skeleton resistances.
20131022 15:01:45< bumbadadabum> *through
20131022 15:02:19< bumbadadabum> So I thought I'd talk about it here
20131022 15:15:54< mattsc> bumbadadabum: sounds good to me, the portrait certainly looks like a skeleton...  The question I'd have is how it affects balance, but I expect that to be a pretty minor effect, given that there aren't that many death knights out there (I think; I didn't verify that).
20131022 15:16:10< bumbadadabum> Death Knights aren't used in MP
20131022 15:16:36< mattsc> Well, they might in UMC.  But I also meant SP scenario balance.
20131022 15:17:06< bumbadadabum> I think it's not a big factor
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20131022 15:50:03< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 7388dbbee50d / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/micro_ais_wml_tags.lua: Animals MAIs: get rid of animal_type= key http://git.io/IQsVIA
20131022 15:50:03< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master da9512bb4959 / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/micro_ais_wml_tags.lua: Animals MAIs: add syntax translation and deprecation message http://git.io/R6oulQ
20131022 15:50:06< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master e730d9459125 / data/core/macros/ai_micro_ais.cfg: Animals MAIs: add individual engine macros for each AI http://git.io/x6n7Ug
20131022 15:50:09< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master a41a9fd3fbc1 / data/core/macros/ai_micro_ais.cfg: Add deprecation message for MICRO_AI_ANIMALS macro http://git.io/EWFdDg
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20131022 16:05:21< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master ecc7fc94fee1 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/swarm.cfg: Swarm MAI test scenario: switch to new animals MAI syntax http://git.io/1b9DYg
20131022 16:05:24< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master ced903bd3add / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/animals.cfg: Animals MAI test scenario: switch to new animals MAI syntax http://git.io/f0OFhA
20131022 16:05:26< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 35e9f621851d / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/dragon.cfg: Dragon MAI test scenario: switch to new animals MAI syntax http://git.io/A5vGrg
20131022 16:05:28< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master fc0fe9ef3f00 / data/ai/micro_ais/scenarios/wolves.cfg: Wolves MAI test scenario: switch to new animals MAI syntax http://git.io/u4b2gQ
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20131022 16:36:28< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master a862f928ecdb / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/mai_big_animals_engine.lua: Big Animals MAI engine: don't load two unused libraries http://git.io/4ag9dw
20131022 16:36:30< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 51f1546c401f / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/mai_wolves_engine.lua: Wolves MAI engine: don't load unused library file http://git.io/VeUwCQ
20131022 16:36:31< irker190> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 227527ee610c / data/ai/micro_ais/ais/ (8 files): Animals MAIs: rename internal engine functions and CAs http://git.io/CVZW-Q
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20131022 16:55:22< irker190> wesnoth: Bär Halberkamp wesnoth-old:master 0b16a676f4f6 / data/campaigns/Liberty/units/Skeleton_Rider.cfg: Removed a double [filter_attack] in the Skeleton Rider http://git.io/OjBtPw
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20131022 17:26:11< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: looks like the 'submerge' ability needed to be added anyway
20131022 17:27:13< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: the 'death knight' has the same resistance as the chocobone
20131022 17:27:38< Coffee_irc> I suspect it was copied from this unit
20131022 17:31:08< Coffee_irc> I noticed it had a different resistance before, and it does affect balance in 6p -hex survival and some UMC addons (one of mine included)
20131022 17:40:24< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: Yeah
20131022 17:40:29< bumbadadabum> but I don't see it as major
20131022 17:40:38< bumbadadabum> and it just seems 'off' to me
20131022 17:40:42< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: no, not really to me either
20131022 17:40:50< bumbadadabum> if one skeleton (an armored one) has less resistances
20131022 17:40:52< Coffee_irc> at first you expect it to have skeleton resistance
20131022 17:41:00< bumbadadabum> for no apparently reason other than "it was never added"
20131022 17:41:09< bumbadadabum> *apparent
20131022 17:41:39< Coffee_irc> for blanace on default the only thing I can think of where it might affect the gameplay is the drakes on 6p hex survival
20131022 17:41:45< Coffee_irc> *balance
20131022 17:42:04< Coffee_irc> against the undead wave that includes the death knight
20131022 17:42:29< Coffee_irc> players sometimes use saurian skirmishers and they will be less useful
20131022 17:42:35< bumbadadabum> yeah
20131022 17:42:54< bumbadadabum> also, the chocobone
20131022 17:43:10< Coffee_irc> the chocobone is a strange one
20131022 17:43:10< bumbadadabum> maybe that one should be altered as well
20131022 17:43:37< Coffee_irc> in UMC extension eras and some campaigns it already has altered resistances
20131022 17:43:48< Coffee_irc> and also movement
20131022 17:43:57< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: My era uses the skeleton rider
20131022 17:44:14< bumbadadabum> which I altered the resistances from
20131022 17:44:18< Coffee_irc> but too high pierce resist I believe is considered overpowerered
20131022 17:44:31< Coffee_irc> for this unit
20131022 17:44:34< bumbadadabum> yeah
20131022 17:44:57< Coffee_irc> I think the problem with it that came up was it's movement was crap
20131022 17:45:02< Coffee_irc> *its
20131022 17:47:07< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: The Skeleton Rider uses something based of mounted and not undeadfoot
20131022 17:47:17< bumbadadabum> You know, I'll make a pull request
20131022 17:47:34< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: http://pastebin.com/QkFJybqe using this scenario and "Shuffle sides", I see only 2 units on the map if sides were actually shuffled.
20131022 17:47:38< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: to do what exactly?
20131022 17:48:30< bumbadadabum> change the resistances
20131022 17:48:38< bumbadadabum> so other devs can take a look and discuss it
20131022 17:51:31< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: is your test map all grass?
20131022 17:51:36< thunderstruck> no
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20131022 17:55:18< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: yeah the units disappear
20131022 17:55:26< bumbadadabum> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/pull/81
20131022 17:55:27< Coffee_irc> but the village ownership is correct
20131022 17:55:34< bumbadadabum> put in a pull request
20131022 17:56:09< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: 1 step forwards 2 steps back :P
20131022 17:57:17< Coffee_irc> oh I see what is happening
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20131022 17:57:30< Coffee_irc> the units are going to -999, -999 by default
20131022 17:57:45< Coffee_irc> this happens if you try to shift around or modify units before turn 1
20131022 17:58:01< Coffee_irc> and is probably a separate bug
20131022 17:58:36< Coffee_irc> I suspect the same would happen with a modify unit in a prestart event
20131022 18:01:59< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: I'll take a look at it (probably later today)
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20131022 18:10:20< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: 'mounted' is even worse movement than undeadfoot from what I can tell :P
20131022 18:10:35< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: it fits for mounted units
20131022 18:11:02< Coffee_irc> but he's not armored like the human calvalry
20131022 18:11:13< Coffee_irc> so should be able to move on mountains
20131022 18:11:19< bumbadadabum> well
20131022 18:11:26< bumbadadabum> he's quite armored
20131022 18:11:38< bumbadadabum> the human Horseman or Lancer aren't that armored either
20131022 18:11:38< Coffee_irc> he's a skeleton
20131022 18:11:53< Coffee_irc> so he doesn't need to be armored
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20131022 18:12:38< Coffee_irc> I think if you posted this for good players of multiplayer they would say that the chocobe's movment is bad already
20131022 18:12:50< Coffee_irc> and that it is not worht the cost to recruit
20131022 18:12:53< Coffee_irc> *worth
20131022 18:15:50< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: there are several default extension eras that specifically boost the stats of the chocobone
20131022 18:16:24< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: They're not meant to be recruited
20131022 18:16:36< Coffee_irc> UMC of course
20131022 18:17:08< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: then how do they appear on the maps?
20131022 18:17:26< bumbadadabum> recruited by ai mostly
20131022 18:17:30< bumbadadabum> if not exclusively
20131022 18:17:40< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: if that is the case then it is better off getting a deathblade
20131022 18:17:50< Coffee_irc> IMO
20131022 18:19:28< Coffee_irc> personally I like the idea of changing the stats for the chocobone, but don't like making him move like a cavalryman
20131022 18:19:53< Coffee_irc> but I'm happy for another dev to chime in on this and correct me if I am wrong
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20131022 18:35:29< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: the chocobone description says it can move faster than most cavalry units
20131022 18:36:19< Coffee_irc> whilst the 'bone rider' and 'skeleton rider' are riding alive horses as far as I can tell
20131022 18:36:32< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: it has 9 moves as opposed to the horseman's 8
20131022 18:37:24< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: I don't know, he just seems a bit bad for the money already to me
20131022 18:37:32< bumbadadabum> to me as well
20131022 18:37:58< bumbadadabum> but maybe I'll leave the balancing to someone with more experience
20131022 18:38:03< Coffee_irc> making him worse seems like a downgrade for such a cool unit
20131022 18:38:22< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: I'm sure the ladder players would be able to get the balance right in a short time
20131022 18:38:55< Coffee_irc> if you tell them the default scenarios to balance for
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20131022 20:13:57< mattsc> vultraz, bumbadadabum: FYI, I have now switched the guardians to the new syntax as well (for some reason irker doesn't seem to be reporting at the moment)
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 23 00:00:06 2013