--- Log opened Tue Nov 12 00:00:41 2013
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20131112 00:09:59< shadowm> fabi: Forum PM?
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20131112 00:20:34< gfgtdf> anyone using visual studio here ?
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20131112 00:49:18< mattsc> Ivanovic (and shadowm et al.):  I am all in favor of getting both 1.11.7 (for the external CAs) and 1.12.0 (for getting the Micro AIs into a stable release and getting them some real use and testing) out sooner rather than later.
20131112 00:49:20< mattsc> We probably won't be able to finish rebalancing SotBE by Dec 21, but Turuk and I will try what we can to get everything that involves changes to strings done by then.  I understand that the rest can still happen after the feature freeze?
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20131112 00:50:43< mattsc> I also have a couple AI features that I would really like to have added for 1.12, but I think that shouldn't be too hard to do by Dec 21 as long as I can get a little bit of help from Crab_.  :)
20131112 00:50:50< mattsc> wesbot: seen Crab_
20131112 00:50:51< wesbot> mattsc: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 47d 8h ago.  47d 8h ago person left:
20131112 00:51:36< shadowm> mattsc: A feature and string freeze is exactly what it says. You can't add new features after the feature freeze begins, regardless of whether they change translatable strings or not.
20131112 00:51:54< shadowm> It's only bug-fixing from that point onwards.
20131112 00:52:20< mattsc> shadowm: does rebalancing a scenario count as a feature change in that context?
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20131112 00:53:20< shadowm> Only if it has the potential of breaking gameplay, I'd say. That really depends on the nature of the rebalancing.
20131112 00:54:26< shadowm> That's mostly for the campaign maintainers to decide.
20131112 00:56:15< mattsc> shadowm: okay.  Well, finishing all the rebalancing of SotBE by Dec 21 is not going to happen for me.  I'd like to, but I just don't have that amount of time until then.  Turuk and I will put our heads together and see what kind of a plan we'll come up with.
20131112 00:57:45< mattsc> It might be possible to do all "significant changes" by then, so that it's only down to adjusting gold, recruit lists etc. at that point.
20131112 01:03:22< irker300> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth-old:master f76f8681b057 / src/network_worker.cpp: fixing a msvc network bug. http://git.io/UfkdRw
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20131112 14:41:59< fabi> zookeeper: Hello, I do some clean ups on the terrains to fit the changes in the help browser. I like to ask what you think about them.
20131112 14:48:37< fabi> 1) There are already virtual terrains (not used in a map but aliased from) for some of the base terrains. Base in this case means those terrains used in [movement_type], not like in base_terrain/overlay.
20131112 14:54:31< zookeeper> ok, so what exactly do you want me to look at?
20131112 14:55:03< fabi> My first suggestion is to have a virtual terrain for every of the 14 (?) base types.
20131112 14:55:28< zookeeper> that sounds like a good idea
20131112 14:55:58< fabi> This virtual terrain can then be used to define the topic of the parent sections.
20131112 14:56:47< fabi> I also want to make every forest terrain an overlay one. And get rid of the many mixed forest definitions.
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20131112 14:58:29< zookeeper> that's fine as long as the conversion from old to new terrains is either trivial or not needed at all, and if that doesn't produce any other problems (i can't tell whether there would be any)
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20131112 15:05:19< fabi> So far, I was not forced to touch the terrain strings of any non virtual terrain at all. Thus there is no need to change anything on the maps.
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20131112 15:06:24< zookeeper> that's good
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20131112 15:06:44< fabi> The "Coastal Reef" base terrain. Is there any reason why it is not a shallow_water/hills mix?
20131112 15:07:04< AI0867> because that would have a completely different effect?
20131112 15:07:40< zookeeper> because a new watery base terrain was wanted so more interesting map features could be made for with water units in mind
20131112 15:07:45< fabi> Okay, I guess I have a wrong understanding of what that terrain is like.
20131112 15:08:00< zookeeper> -for
20131112 15:08:53< zookeeper> if you're playing with mainly water units then maps are going to be boring with just deep and shallow water and swamp as the only choices for "good" terrain
20131112 15:09:11< zookeeper> adding reef at least gives you one more choice for defensive locations etc
20131112 15:10:50< fabi> Yeah, I think I was thinking in the terms of my addon to heavily. There hills is an overlay terrain which adds defense value to the base one, not using the "better/worse of" system.
20131112 15:12:01< fabi> There is some need for new or updated prose, the flat base terrain for example never had a description.
20131112 15:12:30< fabi> I currently use the one from grassland but that is not a perfect solution.
20131112 15:12:30< zookeeper> yeah
20131112 15:13:16< fabi> I am also a bit confused about what terrain the old hardcoded help featured.
20131112 15:13:36< fabi> Most of them were from the base terrain category but there are some exceptions.
20131112 15:13:55< fabi> Lava for example. Or the hill/cave mix.
20131112 15:13:59< zookeeper> once you get the structure all sorted out, a forum thread ought to suffice for getting someone to write the description(s)
20131112 15:14:36< fabi> Okay
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20131112 15:15:15< fabi> Do we want to have a description for every terrain?
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20131112 15:15:34< fabi> At least for the base ones the answer is yes.
20131112 15:16:25< zookeeper> i'd think we'd want a description for every terrain that has its own page
20131112 15:16:41< zookeeper> doesn't mean that some very similar terrains can't have the same description, i suppose
20131112 15:16:49< fabi> Well, I can fall back to the parent.
20131112 15:17:06< fabi> This makes much sense for most of the villages.
20131112 15:17:29< fabi> But I do not know how I should handle the descriptions of mixed terrains.
20131112 15:18:12< zookeeper> me neither :p
20131112 15:18:31< zookeeper> depends on how many there will be, i guess
20131112 15:18:46< fabi> Another question: Shall I also remove the mixed forest terrains from the editor? There they might still make sense.
20131112 15:19:05< bumbadadabum> fabi: Yeah
20131112 15:19:18< bumbadadabum> Since the shift key exists, they aren't really needed anymore
20131112 15:19:34< bumbadadabum> also, does forest still have a base terrain in the editor?
20131112 15:19:37< bumbadadabum> I thought it did
20131112 15:19:53< fabi> There is both.
20131112 15:19:59< fabi> We have forest overlay terrains.
20131112 15:19:59< zookeeper> i dunno. it's been too long since i've used the editor.
20131112 15:20:09< fabi> And predefined mixed forest terrains.
20131112 15:20:09< bumbadadabum> fabi: Can you remove the ones with base terrain?
20131112 15:20:13< bumbadadabum> they don't make sense
20131112 15:20:28< bumbadadabum> why would you use them when you can also use an overlay
20131112 15:21:00< fabi> Yes, I share your thoughts.
20131112 15:21:50< fabi> And we have a lot different forest now, it is okay to get the situation a little bit less crowded.
20131112 15:23:33< fabi> Villages are another thing.
20131112 15:23:44< bumbadadabum> yeah
20131112 15:24:06< bumbadadabum> the current system leads to ugly "no shift key" maps
20131112 15:24:14< bumbadadabum> where all the villages have the same base terrain
20131112 15:24:34< fabi> Thus you suggest to get the villages overlays as well?
20131112 15:24:36< fabi> All of them?
20131112 15:24:47< bumbadadabum> except the water villages maybe
20131112 15:25:01< bumbadadabum> although that won't HURT either
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20131112 15:25:22< fabi> Well, still all overlays have a default base terrain. But I don't know how that concept works exactly.
20131112 15:25:48< fabi> But with this concept it might be a good idea to make water villages an overlay with a default base terrain.
20131112 15:26:25< fabi> Ah, and I was wrong. Not every but some overlays have a default base.
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20131112 15:35:09< fabi> Okay, the [terrain_type] wml reference does not know about "default_base".
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20131112 17:12:52< anonymissimus> gfgtdf: _WIN32 is MinGw and MSVC; to limit something to MSVC use _MSC_VER
20131112 17:13:33< anonymissimus> look for the #pragma warnings
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20131112 17:16:53< gfgtdf> anonymissimus: he patch cause problems on mingw ?
20131112 17:18:43< gfgtdf> anonymissimus: why should i limit it to msvc if it works in mingw too ?
20131112 17:23:54< anonymissimus> no idea whether it causes probs, but your commit messages sounds as if you should have limited to MSVC only
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20131112 17:28:54< gfgtdf> anonymissimus: its not like i added new code i just swapped the "priority"of wich code to use, and defined(WSAEWOULDBLOCK) should ensure that it works(note that you could say the same about defined(EWOULDBLOCK) and errno which isnt the case for msvc). but if that causes problems on other compilers that will ofc be changed.
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