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20131123 03:20:56< mattsc> okay - this is all very messed up and essentially not invertible ...
20131123 03:21:21< mattsc> I am convinced by now that A's solution is the only feasible  :(
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20131123 03:27:52< AI0867> mattsc: what's the condition for the unit map disordering?
20131123 03:37:22< mattsc> AI0867: essentially it's like this (although there are nuances):
20131123 03:38:00< mattsc> units are selected by a filter in inverse or in which they were put on the map, followed by the recall units per side.
20131123 03:38:36< mattsc> However, when a save is loaded, they are selected in this order:
20131123 03:39:28< mattsc> leader of the highest side, followed by all the other units of the side in order in which they were put on the map (not inverse order!), followed by the same for units of the next lower side, followed by recall units in order of side ...
20131123 03:40:13< mattsc> Thus, if I play straight through a scenario, if can get a very different order than when I load an intermediate savegame.
20131123 03:40:32< mattsc> It's a cheater detector.  It shows you who loaded an intermediate save  :D
20131123 03:41:16< mattsc> Anyway, it's quite easy to show that it is impossible to reconstruct the first type of order from the second without additional information.
20131123 03:43:01< mattsc> (and just to be clear here, I do not consider save/loading cheating.  I cheat much more blatantly using debug mode if I want to)
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20131123 03:44:28< mattsc> So in summary, I believe that anonymissimus is correct and that an order needs to be enforced somehow, either by having the unit_map itself ordered, or by ordering the results when selecting units from the unit_map.
20131123 03:46:38< mattsc> And just in case somebody believes this is not a serious issue, do the following little exercise (in 1.11):
20131123 03:47:10< mattsc> Start HttT (or any other campaign or MP scenario), recruit 2 units, save game, load that save, recruit two more units and save a replay.
20131123 03:47:24< mattsc> Then watch the replay and be amazed.
20131123 03:52:54< mattsc> AI0867: I should clarify that the second type of ordering (after loading a game) is also in inverse order of how they were put onto the map.  That is just the order in which the game does that when processing a savegame.
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20131123 03:56:00< mattsc> Btw, I should probably move that thread out of Lua Labs, since it clearly goes well beyond Lua now.  Where do I move it to?  Coder's Corner?  Or Technical Support?
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20131123 04:39:42< iceiceice> holy crap! devdocs.wesnoth.org is awesome!
20131123 04:39:47< iceiceice> how did i not see this before !?
20131123 04:41:52< ancestral> The links at the top (classes, namespaces, etc.) no worky for me
20131123 04:48:02< iceiceice> hmm they work for me i think
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20131123 05:53:13< AI0867> mattsc: I'm wondering what even causes the ordering you're observing
20131123 05:53:42< AI0867> not the change, the fact that there is an ordering at all, given how the units are stored
20131123 05:54:37< mattsc> AI0867: I don't know...
20131123 05:55:04< mattsc> The one from the top of the stack gets read first?
20131123 05:56:50< AI0867> the lua get_units function iterates over the unit_map and filters each one
20131123 05:57:04< AI0867> the unit_map is implemented internaly as an unordered_map
20131123 05:57:10< AI0867> so where does the ordering come from?
20131123 05:58:57< mattsc> AI0867: well, I don't know, but does it make sense to assume that if I read the unit map 10 times without changing anything, it gets read the same way each time (no matter what that order is)?
20131123 06:00:18< mattsc> If so, it appears that they are read from the top of the stack (is that the right word in this case?), which would be supported by the fact that they show up in inverse order in which they are put on the map.
20131123 06:01:11< mattsc> But this is just a guess by somebody who really doesn't know much at all about how any of this works ...
20131123 06:05:23< iceiceice> AI0867: even though its an unordered map, the C++ implementation is still deterministic, right?
20131123 06:05:39< iceiceice> AI0867: it just doesn't give any formal guarantee
20131123 06:06:28< iceiceice> AI0867: am i wrong about that? I guess if it uses some randomized hash function i would be wrong
20131123 06:07:14< iceiceice> AI0867: idk i guess its easy to do an experiment and find out
20131123 06:19:57< AI0867> iceiceice: yeah, the hash and such
20131123 06:20:31< AI0867> but given that the key is an integer, you'd expect the ordering (if there is any) to be equal or at least dependant on that
20131123 06:20:36< AI0867> s/equal/equal to/
20131123 06:21:13< AI0867> that's not what we're observing though
20131123 06:22:10< AI0867> we're observing something that is clearly dependant on the insertion order
20131123 06:23:22< AI0867> you can see the origin of the "per side" ordering in gamestatus.cpp in convert_old_saves
20131123 06:23:36< AI0867> but what preserves that ordering?
20131123 06:24:32< AI0867> ah, there's a list<unit_pod>
20131123 06:29:37< iceiceice> so its been a while for me but i assume that unordered map = hash table
20131123 06:29:51< AI0867> yes
20131123 06:29:53< iceiceice> so you get a block of memory, hash things, and then use chaining if there is a collision
20131123 06:30:03< iceiceice> so then the ordering will depend on the int key,
20131123 06:30:10< AI0867> well, there's various things you can do with collisions, but that's one option
20131123 06:30:12< iceiceice> but a < b will not imply that a <b or a > b in the ordering
20131123 06:30:18< iceiceice> and the insertion order will matter
20131123 06:30:21< iceiceice> if the hashes are the same
20131123 06:30:48< AI0867> iceiceice: the iterator actually iterates over a list, not the map
20131123 06:30:59< AI0867> the map just contains iterators of the same lists
20131123 06:30:59< iceiceice> hmm
20131123 06:32:20< iceiceice> so what is the issue here? you want the ordering to be deterministic so as to avoid oos, but you would prefer unordered map to get speed?
20131123 06:33:11< iceiceice> or i guess we don't know exactly why the oos is happening but we think tis this data structure?
20131123 06:33:13< AI0867> it being deterministic was always a requirement. I'm not sure why this patch was even applied
20131123 06:33:57< AI0867> it seems to have promised to not cause ordering changes
20131123 06:34:51< AI0867> it also looks like the list was added later than the unordered_map change
20131123 06:34:59< AI0867> which is why I didn't find it originally
20131123 06:37:08< mattsc> iceiceice: we do know that the ordering changes cause oos errors.
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20131123 06:56:41< AI0867> the list of pods does have the advantage that iterators are not invalidated when units get killed or otherwise deleted
20131123 07:15:46< iceiceice> does anyone know if it is still true that adding a custom ai to registry.cpp is all that it takes to make it accessible?
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20131123 07:43:54< zookeeper> mattsc, coder's corner
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20131123 14:06:30< mattsc> zookeeper: ah, moved it to the wrong one then.  Should I move it again or is this good enough?
20131123 14:07:28< mattsc> AI0867: Thanks.  Can you take care of that too?
20131123 14:08:10< AI0867> mattsc: sure
20131123 14:10:17< mattsc> AI0867: Thanks.  I can understand how this works and do minor changes myself, but just lack the experience do be certain that I am doing the right thing.
20131123 14:13:19< mattsc> On a separate note, I assume nobody minds if I do the second part of what I propose in my first post anyway: adding underlying_id to the unit proxy table in Lua?
20131123 14:14:08< mattsc> It's not needed for this, but I would have liked to have that available more than once for other reasons.
20131123 14:15:57< AI0867> sounds okay
20131123 14:16:03< AI0867> what else do you need it for?
20131123 14:17:09< mattsc> It's the only thing that is truly unique for a unit, and sometimes it's good to be able to distinguish between them like that.
20131123 14:17:47< mattsc> ... to have something available that lets you distinguish between them with a single parameter
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20131123 14:28:50< mattsc> AI0867: oh, thanks.  And I was imprecise in what I said: I meant would you take care of going back to an ordered map.  :)
20131123 14:32:56< AI0867> oh
20131123 14:33:21< AI0867> I'd like to hear someone else's opinion on my analysis first, but that's the plan
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20131123 14:34:41< mattsc> Of course, that makes sense.  thanks.
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20131123 15:42:19< anonymissimus> mattsc: I think exposing underlying_id is a not so good idea because wml/lua should neevr need to mess with it
20131123 15:42:40< anonymissimus> which is probably why there is no getter yet
20131123 15:43:04< anonymissimus> instead, the usual wml is should (is I think) enforced to be unique
20131123 15:43:13< anonymissimus> wml unit id
20131123 15:44:37< anonymissimus> AI0867: I wonder; if iterators are never invalidated, what happens with the iterator poiting to that unit which is erased ? what doe it point to afterwards ?
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20131123 16:15:05< AI0867> anonymissimus: it points to a unit_pod, which contains a ref counter and a unit pointer
20131123 16:15:28< AI0867> the unit pointer will be NULL, and when the ref counter goes to zero (no iterators left), the pod is removed from the list
20131123 16:20:10< AI0867> wesbot: bug #18591
20131123 16:20:12< wesbot> Bug #18591  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20131123 16:20:12< wesbot> Summary: Multiplayer Game Crashes when loading or starting a second game
20131123 16:20:12< wesbot> Original submission: In multiplayer, game data is being incompletely reset, wh
20131123 16:20:14< wesbot> en loading new games.  At the least the unit_map is not being reset, but there m
20131123 16:20:17< wesbot> URL: http://gna.org/bugs/?18591
20131123 16:20:19< wesbot> Attached file (1st): http://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=16466
20131123 16:23:52< anonymissimus> AI0867: and when trying to deref that iterator it checks for !NULL I suppose ? nice
20131123 16:33:10< mattsc> anonymissimus: I don't want to mess with it, I just want fast read-only access
20131123 16:34:06< AI0867> anonymissimus: it asserts that, yes
20131123 16:34:08< mattsc> and no, the wml id is not enforced to be unique.  It usually is, but it's not guaranteed.
20131123 16:35:01< anonymissimus> mattsc: what do you need it for ? if someone doesn't make his unit ids unique it's his own fault
20131123 16:35:24< anonymissimus> that belongs to the things a coder really shouldn't do
20131123 16:35:24< AI0867> fast equality comparison for AIs?
20131123 16:35:36< AI0867> you can't rely on add-on authors to not be stupid
20131123 16:35:47< anonymissimus> there exists an equality operator for proxy units
20131123 16:36:12< anonymissimus> I added that once, it uses underlying_id
20131123 16:38:31< mattsc> anonymissimus: right, you did, I forgot.  That didn't exist yet when I had the first use cases for it.
20131123 16:39:31< mattsc> Also, it's convenient for setting up tables of units that can be accessed by a single parameter without having to do multiplications (of the map coordinates - which also doesn't work for units on the recall list)
20131123 16:40:08< mattsc> And no, you cannot rely on UMC cade to have unique ids.  Until I fixed that, even the leaders in MP games could have identical ids.
20131123 16:40:36< mattsc> in _mainline_ MP games
20131123 16:42:10< mattsc> Anyways, it's not a big deal.  It's just something that would be convenient to have and be a minor speed improvement in some cases, but it's quite possible to do without (as I have done so far)
20131123 16:43:28< anonymissimus> mattsc: okay well, than add it
20131123 16:43:44< anonymissimus> mattsc: I just recalled a bug report though: http://gna.org/bugs/index.php?18877
20131123 16:43:58< anonymissimus> so even underlying_ids aren't always unique :P
20131123 16:44:35< mattsc> hmm, I see ...
20131123 16:45:22< mattsc> I thought I saw something in the code that clears up underlying_id conflicts, but I didn't really check under which circumstances.
20131123 16:47:29< mattsc> Anyways, I'm off for the rest of the morning.  Thanks to both of you, I wouldn't have been able to figure this one out by myself, at least not in a reasonable amount of time!
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 24 00:00:36 2013