--- Log opened Sat Dec 07 00:00:25 2013
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20131207 03:24:27< shadowm> mattsc: Is there any particular reason that when it comes to discussing AI aspect configuration you don't mention any specific macros in the wiki?
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20131207 03:34:05< mattsc> shadowm: is this on AiWML?
20131207 03:38:58< mattsc> As in, are you referring to AiWML.  I'm trying to remember if there's another place where the wiki mentions AI aspect configuration.
20131207 03:39:55< mattsc> If so, no, no particular reason.  I took the page as it was and expanded a bit on it, and since I rarely use most of the macros myself, I didn't really think about them at the time.
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20131207 03:44:14< shadowm> I prefer to use the macros since the aspect-based AI configuration syntax is... convoluted, to say the least.
20131207 03:45:19< mattsc> Sure, I agree with that.  I've just used it so much, that it's become somewhat easier for me, I guess.  Also, I write code a lot by cut-and-pasting.  :P
20131207 03:45:48< mattsc> Well, copy-and-pasting, I guess.
20131207 03:46:18< mattsc> Anyway, I should add descriptions of the macros to the wiki page.  I'll add it to the list...
20131207 03:50:37< shadowm> Yeah, I copy-paste my own code a lot, so it's only a problem when I need to do something new.
20131207 03:51:16< shadowm> Like right now.
20131207 03:52:28< mattsc> Let me know if I can explain something (updating the wiki is likely not going to happen right away)
20131207 03:53:13< shadowm> Yeah, I have some kind of situation here.
20131207 03:54:50< shadowm> I have an AI side whose leader and units are not spawned on the first turn, but rather later during the scenario as the player progresses through a cave. After the AI leader is spawned, no recruitment seems to be taking place, which makes the leader a sitting duck for high-mobility units like bats, etc.
20131207 03:55:32< mattsc> Is this due to flix' new gold saving aspect?
20131207 03:56:01< shadowm> So I thought I would disable the gold saving aspect, but then I thought that perhaps I could just set it to be disabled for the first turn after the AI leader is spawned? The problem, of course, is that I don't know exactly when that will take place until the player triggers an event.
20131207 03:56:35< shadowm> So I was wonder, would the MODIFY_AI_ADD_ASPECT macro be what I need? It says "modify ai, add facet to an aspect".
20131207 03:56:39< shadowm> *wondering
20131207 03:57:27< shadowm> Yes, I presume it's because of the gold saving aspect since this is 1.11.7 and I don't remember this scenario behaving like that before.
20131207 03:58:04< mattsc> One of those macros would probably work.  I usually just use [modify_side][ai] si I don't know off the top of my head.  Let me have a look
20131207 03:58:39< mattsc> If you want it to do with [modify_side], here's what you put in it:  https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/blob/master/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/02_The_Human_Army.cfg#L65
20131207 03:58:54< mattsc> *to do it
20131207 03:59:53< shadowm> That would clobber all previous AI configuration though, right?
20131207 04:00:23< mattsc> No, i just adds that [ai] tag to what you have set before.  (at least I am pretty sure that it does)
20131207 04:00:55< shadowm> Hm, I don't know, the wiki says it replaces.
20131207 04:01:09< mattsc> It would override if you have another value of recruitment_save_gold set already, but others should be untouched.
20131207 04:01:10< shadowm> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML#.5Bmodify_side.5D
20131207 04:01:50< mattsc> Hmm, I think the wiki is something between wrong and unclear here.
20131207 04:02:10< mattsc> If you have a couple minutes, let me do a test quickly.
20131207 04:02:22< shadowm> I'd not be surprised.
20131207 04:04:01< mattsc> Oh, but it also says that this won't work for a complex aspects (which this one is), and that part is true (I wrote that)
20131207 04:04:42< mattsc> So you'd need to use modify_ai anyway, which has the complicated structure...
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20131207 04:06:51< mattsc> The syntax for that one should be (untested): http://pastebin.com/Liawh29N
20131207 04:07:46< shadowm> Oh I was going to use http://pastebin.com/JwaF34Vf .
20131207 04:08:03< shadowm> And test, of course.
20131207 04:09:36< shadowm> It's the same thing as your paste save for the side number and the path ("aspect[...].facet" instead of "aspect[...].facet[]", not sure if that has a bearing on anything).
20131207 04:09:47< shadowm> And value.
20131207 04:10:29< mattsc> I don't think having the [] makes a difference.
20131207 04:11:24< mattsc> So yes, I think what you have there should work.  (My example was for having it disabled from the beginning, which is not quite what you want.)
20131207 04:14:34< shadowm> \o/ It worked, thanks!
20131207 04:15:02< mattsc> Great!   (and I didn't really do anything)
20131207 04:15:24< shadowm> Doesn't answering my noob questions count? :p
20131207 04:16:21< mattsc> Well, mostly I felt like I gave you information you already knew, guessing at best semi-correctly at things that I have mostly forgotten.  :)
20131207 04:17:13< mattsc> Btw, I've looked up what the AI_DEACTIVATE_SAVE_GOLD macro does in the meantime, but that's only the [facet] part and it's an "always off" setting (active=0)
20131207 04:17:37< mattsc> Anyways, I'm glad you got it figured out.
20131207 04:22:27< mattsc> shadowm: I've tested [modify_side][ai] now.  It only changes the aspects that are set inside that tag.  All others stay unchanged, whether they are in their default configuration or not.
20131207 04:23:22< mattsc> So that's as I thought, but since it doesn't work for the gold saving aspect anyway, it's irrelevant for your use case.  I'll clarify that on the wiki though.
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20131207 10:36:33< fabi> AI0867: Hi.
20131207 10:45:13< AI0867> fabi: hey
20131207 10:48:22< fabi> AI0867: I should ask Dugi how to properly remove the animations from the unit.
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20131207 11:24:00< fabi> Rectangles and circles. Which is better for units and villages?
20131207 11:24:46< zookeeper> circles for units, rects for villages
20131207 11:24:54< fabi> okay
20131207 11:25:13< fabi> I hope I can make it so that you still see when a unit is on a village.
20131207 11:26:02< fabi> zookeeper: Sorry, I hope you got that the context is the minimap display :-)
20131207 11:26:13< zookeeper> i did
20131207 11:27:52< fabi> Well, I could ask some more questions but better I produce just a few screenshots.
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20131207 11:55:29< irker770> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 34b865832aa6 / src/unit_frame.cpp: AnimationWML: fix issue with 'duration' and frame progressive images http://git.io/GMnkiA
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20131207 12:14:32< Coffee_irc> is it just me or do the minimaps look decidedly 8-bit and retro now?
20131207 12:19:24< fabi> wesbot: seen LordBob?
20131207 12:19:24< wesbot> fabi: Sorry, I don't know of LordBob.
20131207 12:19:28< fabi> wesbot: seen LordBob_?
20131207 12:19:28< wesbot> fabi: The person with the nick LordBob_ last spoke 1d 12h ago.  1d 12h ago they left with the message: Quit: LordBob_
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20131207 14:10:47< mordante> servus
20131207 14:11:14< mordante> trademark_, you were looking for me?
20131207 14:13:20< mordante> Ivanovic, I'm also planning to go to the FOSDEM and 2go4 is fine with me
20131207 14:19:43< mordante> gfgtdf have a look at http://linux.die.net/man/3/rand there it implies RAND_MAX often is 32768
20131207 14:20:34< mordante> gfgtdf so to remain portable I probably did that. The random generator of C++98 is rather limited
20131207 14:20:55< mordante> gfgtdf C++11 has more generators
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20131207 14:36:18< R2D2C3PO>  /join #wesnoth
20131207 14:36:27< R2D2C3PO>  /join #wesnoth
20131207 14:36:41< R2D2C3PO>  /join #wesnoth
20131207 14:37:00< mordante> I would drop the leading space R2D2C3PO 
20131207 14:37:19< R2D2C3PO> thanks
20131207 14:37:30< mordante> you're welcome
20131207 14:41:43< gfgtdf> mordante: i don't know what c++11 supports but boost has some rng too, i also guess that RAND_MAX normaly being 32767 comes from the time where ints could have 16 bits (are there still system where int have 16 bit?), and rand returns  a signed integer (anyone knows why it doesnt return unsigned?)
20131207 14:43:45< mordante> probably int since C originally only had ints
20131207 14:44:23< mordante> the problem is to keep the random in sync on different platforms
20131207 14:44:37< gfgtdf> ough legacy really hurts.
20131207 14:44:42< mordante> yes it does
20131207 14:45:32< gfgtdf> ye but the question was wether there are still plattorms where int does not have 32 bits.
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20131207 14:46:39< mordante> I don't expect Wesnoth to work properly on a 16-bit system, but that doesn't mean rand() will return values > 32767
20131207 14:46:45< AI0867> gfgtdf: nothing desktop, I believe
20131207 14:47:05< AI0867> mordante: well, is it supposed to do the same thing as rand()?
20131207 14:47:11< mordante> but boost random has TR1 status
20131207 14:47:30< gfgtdf> mordante: do i did not thought that rand coudl return values >32767.
20131207 14:47:46< AI0867> gfgtdf: that depends on the system, and its value of RAND_MAX
20131207 14:48:17< AI0867> though I'm not sure what that sentence meant just now
20131207 14:48:18< gfgtdf> what does TR1  mean?
20131207 14:48:24< AI0867> technical report 1
20131207 14:48:29< AI0867> or the 2003 version of C++
20131207 14:49:00< mordante> AI0867, yes the code is based on rand()
20131207 14:49:34< AI0867> yes, it's a fairly simple generator, but is it necessary that it does the same thing? Is it required to not be superior?
20131207 14:50:42< mordante> I've no ideas how random the upper bits of this generator are so I'd rather not change the %32768
20131207 14:50:51< mordante> but of course we can use a different generator
20131207 14:51:16< mordante> it will break compatibility, but that's not a big issue for development releases
20131207 14:51:32< mordante> but it should then be done before the stabilisation period
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20131207 14:52:39< gfgtdf> meaning we don't want to use boost random because we don't want to rely on a 2003 c++ standard ?
20131207 14:54:18< mordante> gfgtdf, the differences between C++98 and C++03 are minimal
20131207 14:54:28< gfgtdf> ye i'm aware of compability break and i wouldn't brak compabiliy just because i don't like rand().
20131207 14:54:52< mordante> well with boost random we can use a larger range
20131207 14:55:03< mordante> there is no reason not to switch to boost random
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20131207 14:55:14< gfgtdf> mordante: i thought do dont want TR1 ?
20131207 14:55:26< mordante> TR1 is different from C++11
20131207 14:55:26< gfgtdf> s/do/you
20131207 14:55:39< gfgtdf> ye i know
20131207 14:55:57< mordante> we can use that code from boost, I've no objection
20131207 14:56:06< gfgtdf> quote "but boost random has TR1 status"   ?
20131207 14:56:37< mordante> meaning it probably offers the same as C++11 without requiring a C++11 compiler
20131207 14:56:49< gfgtdf> ah ok
20131207 14:56:51< mordante> C++11 compiler support is still rather bad :-(
20131207 14:57:32< gfgtdf> ye, sometimes i miss lamdas.
20131207 15:01:14< AI0867> hmm, coverity is complaining about the is_ok() calls in the AI code that are used to suppress warnings before rethrowing exceptions. It doesn't like the ignored return values.
20131207 15:01:15< mordante> I really miss move support
20131207 15:01:36< mordante> AI0867, you have access to coverty?
20131207 15:03:12< mattsc> hi mordante.  
20131207 15:03:23< mordante> hi mattsc 
20131207 15:03:27< mattsc> While we're talking about "complaints", clang/llvm is producing a bunch of warnings in src/gui/widgets/generator.cpp: http://pastebin.com/Hr5Y85tB
20131207 15:03:52< gfgtdf> mordante: still i wouldnt switch now. Because i think if we want to break replay compability mutiple times,  it would be nice to have those changes between the same stable versions. maybe we could just change that the next time when we break compability.
20131207 15:04:27< mordante> mattsc, which version of clang?
20131207 15:04:38< mattsc> I've taken care of approximately 50 other warnings like that in the meantime, but don't know how to deal with those  (other than simply making the functions have different names, which I don't want to do without talking to you first)
20131207 15:04:48< AI0867> mordante: create an account and I'll add you to the project
20131207 15:04:57< AI0867> they do free scans for open source projects now
20131207 15:05:31< mattsc> mordante: well, I am using Xcode (Apple llvm 5.0), but AI0867 says travis doesn't like it either.  Don't know what version travis uses.
20131207 15:05:45< gfgtdf> mattsc: about the replay oos at undoing recuits, i think my first approach doesnt fit very well to the current code.
20131207 15:05:50< mordante> llvm 5?
20131207 15:06:16< gfgtdf> mattsc: do i dont know wether i'll do it.
20131207 15:06:16< mattsc> I know, somebody said that already, but that's what xcode tells me
20131207 15:06:47< mordante> llvm.org talks about "LLVM 3.4 Release Schedule:"
20131207 15:07:10< mordante> but I'll test with 3.4 (or a pre-release of it)
20131207 15:07:47< mattsc> mordante: thanks
20131207 15:07:53< mattsc> gfgtdf: okay
20131207 15:09:16< mordante> will take some time in pbuilder -Wdocumentation is complaining all a lot
20131207 15:09:45< mordante> so need to build from scratch without ccache
20131207 15:12:52< AI0867> mattsc: it's "xcode 5.0's LLVM", but which version that corresponds to I don't know
20131207 15:13:24< mattsc> AI0867: I've been trying to find out for the last 7 minutes.  I can't seem to find that information ...
20131207 15:14:14< AI0867> me neither
20131207 15:14:37< mattsc> AI0867: http://pastebin.com/ZawaC0wE
20131207 15:15:02< mattsc> That's a gcc version number though, right?
20131207 15:15:39< AI0867> probably
20131207 15:15:49< AI0867> actually, it says so right there
20131207 15:16:06< mattsc> I don't have a CL command that's just 'llvl'
20131207 15:16:06< AI0867> llvm-clang?
20131207 15:16:09< mattsc> *llvm
20131207 15:16:14< AI0867> or just clang?
20131207 15:16:41< mattsc> Ah, yes, that works, thanks:  Apple LLVM version 5.0 (clang-500.2.75) (based on LLVM 3.3svn)
20131207 15:17:06< mattsc> mordante: ^
20131207 15:17:54< mordante> mattsc, ah ok, don't have 3.3svn here, but running 3.4svn
20131207 15:20:37< irker770> wesnoth: Mark de Wever wesnoth-old:master 84d5572ee81a / src/hotkey/hotkey_manager.hpp: Fix an include guard. http://git.io/Zsm1Zg
20131207 15:21:29< mordante> mattsc, clang now compiles for me^
20131207 15:21:46< mordante> and a rather nice catch by clang :-)
20131207 15:22:07< AI0867> fabi: at 1920x1080, the sidebar works fine, but at 800x480, it remains empty because all the unit info is written to the upper-left corner of the screen
20131207 15:23:38< mattsc> mordante: it runs without any warnings for you?
20131207 15:24:50< mattsc> mordante: it runs for me too, but I am getting a number of warnings (incl. the ones I pastebinned up there), which means that I cannot use strict compiling.
20131207 15:25:03< mordante> mattsc, yes I had only one warning, which I just fixed
20131207 15:25:46< mattsc> mordante: hmm, I just recompiled and still get those 8 warnings, plus a few more which I haven't looked into yet.
20131207 15:25:57< mordante> and strict is also on for me
20131207 15:26:39< mattsc> AI0867: could you try sometime what travis does now with strict compiling?
20131207 15:27:05< AI0867> mattsc: er, if you can find warnings in the current builds, that means it'll just fail
20131207 15:27:40< mattsc> AI0867: but mordante says he doesn't get warnings (while I still have them)
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20131207 15:28:04< mattsc> so I am wondering whether that's some problem with the Apple compiler specifically
20131207 15:28:24< mordante> mattsc, do you have pedantic mode enabled?
20131207 15:29:31< mattsc> mordante: no  (according to Xcode)
20131207 15:29:33< AI0867> you can find plenty of warnings here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/archive.travis-ci.org/jobs/15083690/log.txt
20131207 15:29:56< AI0867> well, only 41 of them now
20131207 15:30:25< AI0867> 32 of them are about the lua bits having .c extensions
20131207 15:30:42< AI0867> and the rest of them are in gui2
20131207 15:32:22< mattsc> AI0867, mordante: yes, the gui2 warnings are the same I get.
20131207 15:32:41< mattsc> AI0867: sorry, didn't know about those logs
20131207 15:33:40< mordante> AI0867, mattsc the odd thing is I can't reproduce it, neither the gui2, nor the Lua warnings
20131207 15:33:51< mordante> AI0867, are you using scons or cmake
20131207 15:35:44< AI0867> scons
20131207 15:35:57< AI0867> that link is travis using scons and clang
20131207 15:36:09< gfgtdf> hm 
20131207 15:36:12< AI0867> clang 3.3
20131207 15:36:19< gfgtdf> fc
20131207 15:36:29< gfgtdf> s/fc/wc
20131207 15:36:53< gfgtdf> -,- i realy failing at trying to translating shrting from german to engish
20131207 15:36:55< mordante> will try with pedantic settings later
20131207 15:37:06< gfgtdf> shortings*
20131207 15:37:25< AI0867> acronyms?
20131207 15:37:45< gfgtdf> yes
20131207 15:38:16< gfgtdf> i bascly wantd to say that i typed 'hm' in the wrong window.
20131207 15:38:25< fabi> mordante: Is there a way to tell the compiler that you really do not want to have a break in that case structure?
20131207 15:38:54< fabi> I have 40+ warnings.
20131207 15:39:06< mordante> fabi, which compiler?
20131207 15:39:12< fabi> Half of them are "no break in..."
20131207 15:39:14< fabi> gcc
20131207 15:39:16< fabi> 4.8
20131207 15:39:44< fabi> 4.8.1
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20131207 15:41:03< mordante> fabi, disabling the warning entirely
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20131207 15:45:38< mordante> fabi, also can't find anything in the GCC manual
20131207 15:46:36< fabi> mordante: Sorry, I confused a warning by the eclipse semantic checker and gcc. Eclipse merges them together. I need to sort it out with eclipse the gcc isn't the source.
20131207 15:48:02< mordante> maybe eclispse has some attributes where you can mark them as such
20131207 15:49:39< AI0867> fabi: was the "modifications" selector your owrk?
20131207 15:49:54< fabi> yes, I can simply rate them down from "warnings" to "info".
20131207 15:50:38< fabi> AI0867: no, I guess it belongs to libcap
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20131207 15:55:18< irker770> wesnoth: Elias Pschernig wesnoth-old:master 12700cd539d5 / data/tools/unit_tree/html_output.py: [units.wesnoth.org] fix typo http://git.io/ESpVCw
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20131207 16:46:57< irker770> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master af98164a730a / src/serialization/string_utils.cpp: Restore original precision after writing a double http://git.io/fQWP3A
20131207 16:46:59< irker770> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 4ef3d2fe32f9 / src/ (hotkey/hotkey_manager.hpp unit_frame.cpp): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/eLuY6w
20131207 16:47:01< irker770> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 39f5f45f20b8 / src/multiplayer_create.cpp: Make the initially selected modificiation determine the button text http://git.io/HsWV2A
20131207 16:47:03< irker770> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 2cd65c999cc0 / src/ai/testing/ca_testing_recruitment.cpp: Assert that a pointer isn't null http://git.io/tpSc9Q
20131207 16:47:05< irker770> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 316da34400fe / data/tools/unit_tree/html_output.py: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/B-pWSw
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20131207 18:00:48< irker770> wesnoth: Mark de Wever wesnoth-old:master 923e85b7734e / src/scripting/lua_api.hpp: Remove a duplicate declaration. http://git.io/K7bstw
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20131207 18:33:31< Ivanovic> trademark_: were you also in for the 2go4 hotel/hostel?
20131207 18:34:01< Ivanovic> so far i think the following folks said they would be in (please correct me if I am wrong!): AI0867, fabi_, mordante, trademark_, Ivanovic
20131207 18:39:50< trademark_> Ivanovic, I didn't say anything yet :-) could you give me the details? (price, how can we pay, ...)
20131207 18:40:10< Ivanovic> trademark_: payment would be at checkin, price is around 30€ per bed
20131207 18:40:49< Ivanovic> that is: so far i have done the booking each year paying some 5€ booking fee, afterwards everyone pays their part at checkin at the hostel/hotel (i am not sure what it really is)
20131207 18:41:01< Ivanovic> http://2go4.be/quality/
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20131207 18:41:57< trademark_> Ivanovic, that's sound good for me, if I say I'm in and that, for any reasons, I finally can't, is it a problem?
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20131207 18:42:29< Ivanovic> i have no idea if partial cancellations are possible
20131207 18:42:39< Ivanovic> mordante: how did it work last year with fabi and me missing?
20131207 18:42:54< Ivanovic> fabi and I at least had to pay one night, or were it both?
20131207 18:43:14< mordante> Ivanovic, we had to pay for one night and had to allow others in the next night
20131207 18:43:28< trademark_> well whatever, 30€ is not a big deal, is it one or two nights?
20131207 18:43:33< mordante> and I think if you cancel earlier it may even be not a problem at all
20131207 18:43:34< Ivanovic> two nights
20131207 18:43:50< trademark_> ok, please reserve for me then
20131207 18:43:54< mordante> €30 per night
20131207 18:44:37< mordante> trademark_, http://www.2go4.be/quality/en/info.htm
20131207 18:45:50< mordante> trademark_, and about cancellation http://www.2go4.be/quality/en/faq.asp
20131207 18:47:59< elias> hm, private room is 130€... I can get cheaper rooms elsewhere
20131207 18:48:18< Ivanovic> elias: yeah, but not private 4 bedrooms
20131207 18:48:26< elias> i know
20131207 18:48:55< Ivanovic> and for two beds 60€ is already a very decent price for brussels
20131207 18:49:37< Ivanovic> and the private rooms are at 65 to 69€
20131207 18:50:17< Ivanovic> ehm, 60 to 65€
20131207 18:50:29< Ivanovic> no idea if you get a room for this price otherwise in the town center
20131207 18:51:16< trademark_> I think the metro is cheaper
20131207 18:51:44< trademark_> Ivanovic, you reserved for 4-beds room?
20131207 18:51:54< Ivanovic> i have not reserved anything yet
20131207 18:52:03< trademark_> I mean will you?
20131207 18:52:11< Ivanovic> i plan to get us some beds, yeah
20131207 18:52:22< Ivanovic> right now 5 people stated their interest in 2go4
20131207 18:53:01< trademark_> ok 
20131207 18:57:54< trademark_> mordante, Ivanovic  thanks for the infos
20131207 19:00:06< mordante> you're welcome
20131207 19:00:59< Ivanovic> fabi_: you forgot to set the track to the games devroom
20131207 19:01:03< Ivanovic> i have done so now
20131207 19:02:36< Ivanovic> hmm, looking at booking.com it might be possible to get a cheaper solution for rooms going to a "real" hotel with many 2 bed rooms...
20131207 19:02:49< Ivanovic> prices for both nights might be around 25€ per night/person
20131207 19:03:19< mordante> that sounds interesting
20131207 19:03:50< elias> the one I had last year on Grote Markt is 120€ for two nights, thinking about booking that again
20131207 19:04:09< elias> another one claims 95€
20131207 19:07:59< Ivanovic> http://www.booking.com/hotel/be/madeleine.de.html?sid=68a0a61f6ad0fd5bcd88509eda31b7a8;dcid=1
20131207 19:08:17< Ivanovic> that one seems to be at less than 30€ per night if we went for one threebed and one double room
20131207 19:09:04< Ivanovic> and breakfast would be included in that price!
20131207 19:09:19< mordante> and closer to the Greek :-)
20131207 19:09:44< elias> haha, the most important criterion
20131207 19:09:55< Ivanovic> elias: two nights in a single room incl breakfast (with "pay later") would be 104€, with pay now 100€
20131207 19:10:18< elias> Ivanovic: yeah, that's the one I saw as 95€
20131207 19:10:40< Ivanovic> mordante, trademark_, fabi_, AI0867, elias: so should we all head for this one?
20131207 19:10:53< Ivanovic> and: ground booking or separate bookings?
20131207 19:11:23< mordante> trademark_, would depend on whether trademark_ wants to keep the option to cancel
20131207 19:14:42< mordante> but I'm in favour of this one, I only see advantages
20131207 19:17:35< Ivanovic> the possible downside is to have a "real" double bed in the rooms, so not separate beds
20131207 19:18:01< Ivanovic> that is the standard double rooms are exactly that, one single double bed
20131207 19:18:11< mordante> Ivanovic, no you can select
20131207 19:18:18< Ivanovic> for the three bed room you can select that you *perfer* to have 3 single beds
20131207 19:18:29< Ivanovic> that still means you might get 1 double 1 single
20131207 19:19:16< mordante> well I assume they will tell you when you book
20131207 19:19:17< Ivanovic> another downside is: no wifi for free
20131207 19:19:29< Ivanovic> unlikely if done via such a booking portal
20131207 19:20:59< mordante> no idea I've never used on before
20131207 19:21:15< mordante> one*
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20131207 19:31:16< Ivanovic> AI0867, fabi_, trademark_, mordante: so any preference what to do/book?
20131207 19:31:40< Ivanovic> if we booked double rooms in this hotel we would be pretty should to get those double beds
20131207 19:31:58< Ivanovic> s/should/sure
20131207 19:32:12< Ivanovic> for the triple rooms there is a chance to have separate beds
20131207 19:33:54< Ivanovic> price in the double room would be 30,50€ per night
20131207 19:33:55< mordante> at least one separate bed ;-)
20131207 19:34:27< Ivanovic> price for the triple room would be 30€ per night, so basically identical (or close)
20131207 19:34:56< Ivanovic> always looking at the version paying at arrival and cancellation allowed until day of arrival 16:00
20131207 19:35:14< mordante> after last year I think that is wise
20131207 19:35:22< Ivanovic> so do I
20131207 19:35:32< mordante> and the differences aren't that big
20131207 19:35:53< mordante> one euro per person per night
20131207 19:35:55< Ivanovic> the price is slightly above 2go4 but the location is better and "real" breakfast should be included, not just a hot drink
20131207 19:36:34< mordante> yup so deduct the price of the breakfast at the FOSDEM
20131207 19:36:51< mordante> also I like to location better
20131207 19:37:23< mordante> will elias also join use or do you book for yourself?
20131207 19:37:29< mordante> us*
20131207 19:37:50< Ivanovic> elias: what do you think, do you want to have a single room for yourself or would you join us and we go for 2 3bed rooms?
20131207 19:38:57< Ivanovic> fabi_: since you asked me, EvilDragon might be able to give another pandora talk, no idea if it differs from the past talks or not
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20131207 19:43:23< Ivanovic> that is when ordering via booking.com i *might* get some 4% cashback, but stuff like this often does not work, so it would be a nice bonus if it worked
20131207 19:43:54< Ivanovic> (then booking.com would be opened via a reference link from qipu.de and it might provide some cashback or not)
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20131207 19:52:41< trademark_> Ivanovic, it's ok for me ;) it seems to be nice
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20131207 19:53:19< fabi_> Ivanovic: Yes, nice to have a breakfast there.
20131207 19:54:17< elias> Ivanovic: i'll just take a single room
20131207 19:55:44< fabi_> elias: The units.wesnoth.org is working again but it only shows mainline content :-(
20131207 19:58:43-!- happygrue [~happygrue@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20131207 19:59:30< Ivanovic> okay, sent a short mail to the ML
20131207 19:59:59< Ivanovic> that is: 4 of the 5 who said 2go4 would be an option already stated they would be fine with the hotel
20131207 20:00:31< Ivanovic> AI0867: since you are no longer away, please either check this chans backlog or your mail inbox for the mail sent to wesnoth-dev
20131207 20:05:43-!- Bodhi-Baum [~Bodhi@dslb-084-063-034-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
20131207 20:08:27< Ivanovic> fabi_, trademark_, mordante: you are fine if i book 2 rooms (one double, one triple) incl breakfast and allowed cancellation?
20131207 20:09:00< Ivanovic> that is: i would probably handle those as separate bookings so that we can cancel each room separately
20131207 20:09:07< fabi_> fine
20131207 20:09:54< fabi_> Ivanovic: What about LordBob?
20131207 20:10:31< Ivanovic> right, he has not said anything so far
20131207 20:10:58< Ivanovic> and no idea if TSI might come...
20131207 20:11:09< fabi_> That would be cool.
20131207 20:13:24< Ivanovic> sent a mail to LordBob_
20131207 20:13:28< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen LordBob_
20131207 20:13:28< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick LordBob_ last spoke 1d 20h ago.  1d 20h ago they left with the message: Quit: LordBob_
20131207 20:14:06< AI0867> Ivanovic: I've read the backlog
20131207 20:16:48< mordante> Ivanovic, yes I'm fine with it
20131207 20:18:20< Ivanovic> AI0867: so do you agree that shorter walking distance and breakfast sound like a decent thing to try?
20131207 20:18:56-!- markus_ [~mjs-de@p508CB164.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20131207 20:19:23< Ivanovic> mordante: have you seen the mail from shadowm about his cmake woes?
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20131207 20:35:28< Ivanovic> okay, we are at 2 triple rooms now, Crab_ is in, too!
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20131207 20:37:03< AI0867> Ivanovic: yeah
20131207 20:37:07< AI0867> =)
20131207 20:44:41< mordante> Ivanovic, I've seen it, but not looked into it closely, it works for me...
20131207 20:45:00< mordante> so we might end up all in the same hotel :-)
20131207 20:45:08< mordante> heard anything from YogiHH ?
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20131207 20:52:58< anonymissimus> fabi_: ping
20131207 20:53:07< fabi_> anonymissimus: pong
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20131207 20:53:30< anonymissimus> could you please fix things when you get them reported and not do other things first ?
20131207 20:53:57< anonymissimus> if they are related to your recent work at least
20131207 20:54:26< anonymissimus> the sooner fixed the easier it should be as the things leading to the bug are still very present in mind
20131207 20:54:42< fabi_> anonymissimus: Which one do you want to get fixed?
20131207 20:55:06< mordante> I'm off bye
20131207 20:55:10< fabi_> mordante: bye
20131207 20:55:40-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20131207 20:57:14< justinzane_> Is the default AI broken in HEADS/master?
20131207 20:57:34< anonymissimus> fabi_: the reach highlighting I reported yesterday here at ~14:11:08
20131207 20:58:07< justinzane_> I just checked out and built and the AI will not recruit in single player.
20131207 20:58:59< fabi_> anonymissimus: Fine, It will have high priority. Do you agree that implementing a decent handling of hotkey defaults is even more important?
20131207 20:59:27< gfgtdf> justinzane_: in multiplayer teh ai doesnt recuit nougher but i think that was also teh case in 11.2
20131207 21:01:25< mattsc> justinzane_: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=39700
20131207 21:02:06< gfgtdf> mattsc: is the 'experimental recuitement' supposed to recuit ?
20131207 21:06:13< AI0867> gfgtdf: check the second turn
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20131207 21:12:31< AI0867> experimental recruit also means possibly skipping recruitment if it decides no more units are required
20131207 21:12:32< mattsc> gfgtdf: which experimental recruitment?
20131207 21:12:34< mattsc> There are three of them if you turn on debug mode, and AFAIK, none of them really works or does a good job (but I don't know for sure, I had nothing to do with either of them)
20131207 21:12:34< gfgtdf> AI0867: well if i gave teh ai 2k gold and attack theirs leader wich 4 units it's pretty supid to come to the conclusion that recuitment is not needed.
20131207 21:12:34< gfgtdf> mattsc: ah ok i'll ty ithoput debug mode
20131207 21:12:34< justinzane_> Remind me, syntax for selecting "default" AI on cmd line, please
20131207 21:12:34< gfgtdf> without*
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20131207 21:12:35< anonymissimus> AI0867: how do you get the coverity messages, did you buy the tool ?
20131207 21:12:35< mattsc> gfgtdf: I renamed all of the MP recently, so that it is clear which one is which, because until recently some of them had identical names.
20131207 21:12:35< AI0867> anonymissimus: free scans for open source projects
20131207 21:12:35< mattsc> justinzane_: if you want the default, you don't need to specify anything
20131207 21:12:36< gfgtdf> mattsc: the ais available in non debug mode don't cause problems for me?
20131207 21:12:36< AI0867> anonymissimus: just sent you an invite
20131207 21:12:37< gfgtdf> mattsc: are those 'eperiemental recuitment' ai's still developed?
20131207 21:12:37< mattsc> gfgtdf: not as far as I know
20131207 21:12:37< Ivanovic> okay, we are at 2 double, one triple now
20131207 21:12:38< justinzane_> mattsc: the old default, whatever it was. I just want to play for a bit.
20131207 21:12:38< gfgtdf> mattsc: so removing them is the plan ?
20131207 21:12:53< mattsc> gfgtdf: I don't know, I was not involved with any of them.  You should ask Crab_ about that.
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20131207 21:14:05< gfgtdf> mattsc: ok 
20131207 21:14:42< mattsc> justinzane_: "old" as in before 1.11.7?
20131207 21:15:15< justinzane_> Let me rephrase... Is it possible to play /HEADS/master in single player with a non-suicidal AI?
20131207 21:16:09< mattsc> justinzane_: umm, I don't know what non-suicidal means - but no, in SP you cannot change the AIs used from the CL.  You have to do that by editing the scenario files.
20131207 21:17:11< mattsc> justinzane_: I have to be afk for 20-30 min, will be back after that
20131207 21:17:26< justinzane_> mattsc: ok
20131207 21:19:18< justinzane_> I'm playing LotI-1 on a freshly built /HEADS/master. The AI will not recruit, so it gets slaughtered. I'm just trying to play for fun :) before I torture myself with the SDL2 port.
20131207 21:19:52< bumbadadabum> justinzane_: I'm pretty sure the new recruitment wasn't made with LotI in mind
20131207 21:20:21< bumbadadabum> It's possible to disable it
20131207 21:20:23< justinzane_> bumbadadabum: So existing WML gets broken?
20131207 21:20:33< bumbadadabum> not BROKEN
20131207 21:20:46< bumbadadabum> but the AI does money-saving and everything
20131207 21:21:02< bumbadadabum> and LotI isn't suited to this
20131207 21:21:15< justinzane_> So, LotI is then broken, no?
20131207 21:21:34< bumbadadabum> yes
20131207 21:23:06< justinzane_> And is this change considered for release? It seems odd that Wesnoth would not consider moving to, say c++11 which should affect almost noone, but will make AI changes that affect many. Or am I way off base?
20131207 21:24:24< anonymissimus> AI0867: where and in which form is the invite ?
20131207 21:24:44< AI0867> you got an email at your arcor.de email
20131207 21:25:19< anonymissimus> AI0867: uhm, it's not there (yet ?)
20131207 21:25:22< AI0867> huh
20131207 21:25:39< AI0867> check your spam?
20131207 21:25:50< anonymissimus> somtimes there are "lags", such as when registering in some forum
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20131207 21:28:06< AI0867> anyway, you'll need to go to scan.coverity.com and create an account
20131207 21:28:12< AI0867> maybe it'll show up then
20131207 21:28:25-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@e176188202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20131207 21:28:28< AI0867> an alternative route is to request to join the project, after which an admin needs to approve it
20131207 21:32:42< anonymissimus> AI0867: and which "open source" projects are permitted ? I suppose it need to be GPL ?
20131207 21:33:10< mattsc> justinzane_: I'm back - at least on and off.  Did you read the thread to which I linked up there?  That discusses exactly those issues you raise.  And yes, they are real valid issues and no decision has been made yet.
20131207 21:34:22-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20131207 21:34:27< mattsc> justinzane_: I you "just want to play", the easiest way would be to use 1.11.6.
20131207 21:36:14< justinzane_> mattsc: I'll pull that tag. 
20131207 21:37:44< shadowm> AI0867: If you are going to recommend people to force-push, you might as well explain why that shouldn't normally be done.
20131207 21:39:09< justinzane_> mattsc: In talking about various things, I got the impression, especially from shadowm, that Wesnoth was a rather conservative project. I'll read the thread again, but I'm wondering what Wesnoth's balance is between "progress" and "not breaking stuff".
20131207 21:40:36< anonymissimus> shadowm: I suppose it's okay in case no other dev has/keeps the branch checked out (such as can be assumed for a pull request) ?
20131207 21:41:43< shadowm> anonymissimus: Yeah, of course, my concern is that XYZ person may apply inductive reasoning and later get commit access and proceed to force-push to an upstream repository.
20131207 21:42:40< mattsc> justinzane_: I'm actually one of the more recent additions to the Wesnoth devs team, so I'm probably not the right person to ask.  :)
20131207 21:45:53< mattsc> Of the people working on the AI, I'm just the only one who seems to be around more often than not at the moment, so I try to reply to AI questions when they come up.
20131207 21:46:36< justinzane_> mattsc, Crab_, I don't suppose you know if it is possible to have the AI default to `save_gold=0` if a particular scenario does not have a save_gold tag at all.
20131207 21:47:37< justinzane_> That would, seemingly, fix the issue; though I'm unwilling to care ATM since SDL2 porint is driving me more insane than my name implies... 
20131207 21:47:56< shadowm> Saying that C++11 would affect almost no-one is simply wrong.
20131207 21:49:13< shadowm> Regarding conservative vs. non-conservative, I do not believe in absolutes, and different aspects of the project require different approaches.
20131207 21:50:47< shadowm> Thoe gameplay rules never change, sans minor extensions; this is by design. On the other hand, there have been many UI changes since 1.0.0 or even 0.1.0, and many new campaigns have been added over time, just as the portrait or sprite styles have been gradually revised and replaced.
20131207 21:51:57< shadowm> A lot of code has been refactored or entirely redesigned and replaced to accommodate for current and future needs, too (the AI is probably one major example relevant to WML coders as well).
20131207 21:53:38< AI0867> anonymissimus: I think you provide a public URL to the repo and they take your word for it that it's open source
20131207 21:54:03< AI0867> also, everyone can see which projects use it
20131207 21:54:20< mattsc> justinzane_: it's trivial to change the default, but obviously this should not be possible to do through a preferences setting.  But if you want to hack one of the data/ directory files, no problem at all.
20131207 21:54:49< mattsc> *it should not be possible to do *this ...
20131207 21:57:01< mattsc> justinzane_: this is how it's done: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/22a2ac4e0a3f706ffe802ebf18bd2cb0e173c8a3
20131207 21:57:23< mattsc> just set 'active=0' in the first file and you're set
20131207 21:58:14< justinzane_> shadowm: please explain how, when almost everyone uses prebuilt binarios that changing something in cmake or scons would affect more users that changes to AI which drastically impact the playability of many existing scenarios?
20131207 21:58:37< anonymissimus> AI0867: well in the FAQ "How do I register a project for Coverity Scan?" there are pretty concrete prerequisites
20131207 21:58:52< shadowm> Ivanovic, mordante: I don't know if point 2 is just a problem with my cmake version, but 1 is presumably version independent since I've seen -DNDEBUG is CMAKE_*_FLAGS_* for many other software for a good while.
20131207 21:59:03< shadowm> *in
20131207 21:59:33< shadowm> justinzane_: We need to support systems where compilers supporting at least half of C+11 aren't easily available.
20131207 21:59:38< anonymissimus> AI0867: and how about technical prerequisites; like, for instance, being buildable with g++ ?
20131207 22:00:12< shadowm> It's easy to assume "almost everyone" when you are only taking Windows and Mac OS X users into account.
20131207 22:01:38< justinzane_> shadowm: Excuse my ignorance, but what systems would those be -- Linux, iOS, OSX, Windows, many BSDs, Android, they all have c++11 compilers available.
20131207 22:02:06< shadowm> You are not taking system versions into account.
20131207 22:02:36< justinzane_> And, shadowm, again, how does forcing a few packagers to upgrade compilers equate to breaking favorite scenarios for many end users?
20131207 22:03:19< shadowm> UMC content authors are required to update their content for new stable versions.
20131207 22:03:41< shadowm> Changes in behavior should be expected just as backwards-incompatible changes in syntax already are.
20131207 22:04:20< justinzane_> Why not require the same upgrade friendliness when it comes to other things?
20131207 22:05:10< shadowm> Because there is usually no need to since UMC authors are made aware of these caveats during the course of a development cycle.
20131207 22:06:09< justinzane_> shadowm: If I'm still using XP or Dapper Drake or OS9, really, why should I be a concern. There are still old versions of both content and game binaries available. Why not force progress in the platform arena with the same level of emphasis as in the content arena?
20131207 22:06:44< justinzane_> My question is why is change forbidden in one area by encouraged and fostered in another?
20131207 22:07:05< shadowm> Why does this really matter to you?
20131207 22:07:22< AI0867> anonymissimus: you have a tool you download that you wrap the build system in. It recognizes which files are used and how they're compiled, then uses that information for the analysis
20131207 22:08:28< shadowm> That some add-on was broken by a new development release shouldn't be surprising, especially one that breaks a lot of gameplay conventions (thus not being exactly AI-friendly) and is generally an engineering mess like LotI.
20131207 22:08:59< shadowm> Is the situation going to change before 1.12? Most certainly. Either the game or the add-on gets fixed.
20131207 22:09:16< shadowm> In the meantime you are required to be patient because you are playing a development version.
20131207 22:09:52< justinzane_> Oh, I get the oddness of LotI. Unfortunately, that is the only campaign that has kept my interest. Indeed it was the insanity of LotI's WML that motivated me to look at the source in the first place.
20131207 22:10:32< AI0867> justinzane_: we can't really force progress on distros
20131207 22:10:58< shadowm> Is any of this related to the C++98 vs. C++11 debate? Probably. It depends on the C++11 implementation status across all compilers -- and I don't mean just feature availability, but also behavior differences that may result in mysterious catastrophic bugs that only happen with certain platform and compiler combinations.
20131207 22:11:05< AI0867> if we require new stuff the distros don't have to build, we simply won't be distributed
20131207 22:12:20< shadowm> We already have various mysterious bugs like that with the current standard requirements.
20131207 22:12:24< AI0867> we host the UMC ecosystem, the distros host us
20131207 22:12:41< justinzane_> AI0867: So, Windows, Mac, iOS, Android, they are all playing binaries, I guess. From what I can tell, every reasonable common distro has both gcc4.7 or clang3.3 available. 
20131207 22:13:08< AI0867> if an add-on started using new WML that doesn't work, that's hardly going to force us to implement it
20131207 22:13:35< justinzane_> What are these exceptions that are so important? I'm not trying to be an ass-pain, just to understand, in specific example what you know that I don't.
20131207 22:13:48< AI0867> I'm hardly an expert on C++11 compatibility, but I've heard that those aren't good enough yet
20131207 22:15:07< justinzane_> AI0867: I've been using a mix of Ubuntu 13.04, Kubuntu 13.10 and Arch boxes as a little distcc farm building with clang++ 3.3 (now 3.4) and -std=c++11 for several months.
20131207 22:15:49< shadowm> We have a donated server on CentOS 4.9, for starters. Although I haven't compiled Wesnoth on it since like 1.11.2 -- I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't build anymore.
20131207 22:15:53< justinzane_> No bugs, that I can tell, though I do not run tests generally, just play
20131207 22:16:12< AI0867> 15:56 < mordante> C++11 compiler support is still rather bad :-(
20131207 22:16:43< justinzane_> examples?
20131207 22:16:47< AI0867> that was 7.5 hours ago
20131207 22:16:50< AI0867> I don't know!
20131207 22:17:25< justinzane_> mordante: what specific problems are you having with c++11?
20131207 22:18:12< justinzane_> shadowm: the donated server is used as a campaign server?
20131207 22:18:34< shadowm> AI0867: Do you have a rough idea of how many developers besides mordante know C++11 here?
20131207 22:18:55< shadowm> Active developers, of course. Also, you can count me on the "doesn't know C++11" lot.
20131207 22:19:41< shadowm> justinzane_: No.
20131207 22:19:48< justinzane_> Maybe I'm just clueless, but I never knew c++ until I started hacking on Wesnoth. 
20131207 22:21:12< justinzane_> The c++11 thing is, for the most part just convenience -- like `for (auto i : some_iterable_container) {... }` or `std::atomic<bool> quit {false};`
20131207 22:21:27< shadowm> Neither did I, but that was back in 2007 and my interest in learning a programming language is directly proportional to the amount of stuff I'm going to do with it. Back then I had a motivation to learn.
20131207 22:22:06< justinzane_> My point is that c++11 does not require eliminateing anything or force anyone to write in that style. 
20131207 22:22:28< shadowm> Why do you feel the switch to be necessary then?
20131207 22:22:44< justinzane_> It simply allows flexibility that is not available in earlier language standards. 
20131207 22:24:17< justinzane_> Because it allows clearer, less verbose code in many situations. The fact that you can put initializers in clear, standard format in headers instead of that ungodly : init(a),init2(1324.4), ... mess alone make reading the code quicker because it is immediately evident what default values are provided.
20131207 22:25:23< shadowm> So you are saying you want to impose that style, which contradicts your previous statement that nobody is forced to write in that style.
20131207 22:25:25< justinzane_> For those who come from interpreted languages, especially Python, the difference is perceptible, though not earth-shaking.
20131207 22:26:39< justinzane_> No, I impose nothing, other than a `-std=c++11` at compile time. It means that you can write with traditional initializers and for loops and I can write with different ones. 
20131207 22:27:23< shadowm> That approach would result in wildly different coding styles within the same code base, which is unacceptable.
20131207 22:29:16< justinzane_> Really? the existing code is a wild mess of different styles. CamelCase and under_score, #defines and enums, etc. 
20131207 22:29:23 * anonymissimus calls that std::sort bug in C++11 I he ran into
20131207 22:29:44< justinzane_> anonymissimus: ?
20131207 22:30:17< justinzane_> do you know where?
20131207 22:30:25< anonymissimus> well yeah, I once compiled in MinGw using C++11 and it was immidiately buggy
20131207 22:30:34< shadowm> That's because we also have code from before there was a standard coding style.
20131207 22:30:52< shadowm> But I didn't really mean any of that. Those differences are mostly cosmetic.
20131207 22:30:57< anonymissimus> (of course, you need to consider that I seem to notice bugs with higher probability than other people)
20131207 22:31:55< justinzane_> So, existing oddities are fine, noone needs to address them by, say doing a cleanup release, but new ones are not? That just persists garbage, does it not?
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20131207 22:32:20< justinzane_> anonymissimus: I use citronella oil for that...
20131207 22:33:11< shadowm> You seem to overestimate the amount of time and effort that can be put into a volunteer-driven project where no coder is paid for their work.
20131207 22:34:50< shadowm> Firstly (because this obviously will crop up I may as well put it out of the way first), outsiders generally lack the historical context required to understand why some piece of code is designed the way it is, so they are usually not eligible for rewriting vast amounts of code without breaking functionality (keep border cases in mind, et cetera).
20131207 22:35:58< justinzane_> Oh, I get that. The only way I am able to deal with the SDL2 port is by simple removing finctionality that I cannot grasp and adding it back from git.
20131207 22:36:08< shadowm> Secondly, the people who actually work on Wesnoth do not have a lot of time or energy to read and rewrite copious code that they may not have written in the first place (or if they did, it was over half a decade ago) while ensuring they know and understand every single nuance involved (again, border cases, platform or compiler-specific behavior, etc.).
20131207 22:37:33< justinzane_> That is unquestionable. Old code had lots of mysterious nooks anc crannies. 
20131207 22:37:37< shadowm> This is why a lot of meta-tasks like cleaning up or refactoring code just aren't done as fast as people who don't have to coordinate their Wesnoth efforts with their own lives might want.
20131207 22:37:42< justinzane_> s/c/d/
20131207 22:38:02< justinzane_> Of course.
20131207 22:38:37< shadowm> Permanently switching to C++11 while ensuring all behavior remains the same? It can't be done all at once.
20131207 22:39:31< shadowm> But as I have told you for ages, there is an ongoing effort to make Wesnoth C++11-safe. It's just that there only seems to be one person on board.
20131207 22:40:24< shadowm> I can only assume it's because everyone else is in the same position as me. And requiring C++11 (i.e. writing backwards-incompatible C++11 code as opposed to just writing C++11-safe code) is a different story altogether.
20131207 22:40:41< justinzane_> I guess that I am suggesting that it just might be possible for some of the "charismatic leaders" might be able to generate the consensus necessary to get *most* developers to work on cleanup together every now and again -- like once per major version, one annual quarter out of eight, somethign like that.
20131207 22:40:55< shadowm> We don't have any charismatic leaders.
20131207 22:41:00< shadowm> Or leaders at all.
20131207 22:41:15< justinzane_> Bollocks -- you are one of them. 
20131207 22:41:18< shadowm> I'm sorry to break it to you, but it's the truth.
20131207 22:41:21< justinzane_> :)
20131207 22:41:26< justinzane_> at least to me
20131207 22:41:32< justinzane_> so is mattsc
20131207 22:41:43< shadowm> Yeah, no, we are not.
20131207 22:42:16< shadowm> There is simply no leadership, and any argument appealing to any perceived roles of leadership is inherently invalid.
20131207 22:43:28< shadowm> So if you really want something done you must get it done yourself (and if you are an outsider, convince us to commit the results).
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20131207 22:44:44< shadowm> Just don't break Wesnoth, okay? Because even in anarchy people can grab torches and pitchforks and create a blooddy mess. :)
20131207 22:45:04< bumbadadabum> wait
20131207 22:45:09< bumbadadabum> breaking wesnoth is not done?
20131207 22:45:28< shadowm> No, it's horribly broken as of late thanks to fabi's plan to sabotage 1.11.8.
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20131207 22:49:03< trademark_> Ivanovic, it's fine for me ;-)
20131207 22:49:11< trademark_> good night/days guys
20131207 22:49:13< trademark_> I'm off
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20131207 22:57:49< justinzane_> My torch is occupied keeping the house warm and I haven't seen the pitchfork lately. Probably under the lawn chairs and packrat poop in the shed. Oh, well.
20131207 22:59:45< justinzane_> On a seperate note, I'm trying to understand event handling as it is now. The straight c++ stuff seems approachable, but I'm totally lost once it comes to lua integration. 
20131207 23:01:47< shadowm> "Event handling" may refer to any of the following three concepts (or more that I might be unaware of): SDL event handling (including GUI1 and display event handling), WML/Lua event handling, or GUI2 event handling.
20131207 23:02:23< shadowm> They are all different things in spite of the overlaps.
20131207 23:04:22< justinzane_> sorry -- Handling SDL_Event structs
20131207 23:05:20< shadowm> Yeah, that's not done in Lua or WML at all.
20131207 23:06:00< justinzane_> I'm trying to (re)write the event_mgr to allow easy and reliable registration of functions that handle specific SDL_EventType's 
20131207 23:06:51< justinzane_> The problem is though, that WML and LUA may want, as I understand, to handle certain events that cannot be know at runtime.
20131207 23:07:03< shadowm> Don't we use an object oriented approach involving types inheriting from a pump monitor class or something right now? I don't remember.
20131207 23:07:59< shadowm> Also, WML/Lua event handling does not have much to do with the core event handling other than being a consequence.
20131207 23:08:20< justinzane_> Yeah. That is what I am (re)writing. [Rewriting since that is the only way to fully understand how it works.] And, I'm doing that since SDL_Events have changed **alot** in ways that effect the game.
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20131207 23:09:16< shadowm> That is, there is no single WML/Lua event that's a 1:1 mapping to a core event.
20131207 23:09:35< justinzane_> Just simple stuff like SDLKey is gone, now there is SDL_Keysym, SDL_Keymod, SDL_Scancode, etc. since they have become Unicode friendly.
20131207 23:10:26< justinzane_> Right. Things must get dynamically registered as they are loaded or based on conditionals within the game play context. 
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20131207 23:11:16< justinzane_> I'm trying to find where lua "tells" c++ that it has a handler to register.
20131207 23:12:37< shadowm> The [event] tag (which is the cornerstone of WML event handling) nowadays is implemented in Lua. Inspecting the core Lua unit (data/lua/wml-tags.lua) should reveal exactly how it is implemented.
20131207 23:12:39< AI0867> I'm finding all sorts of places where a well-crafted savegame could crash wesnoth
20131207 23:12:47< shadowm> But that registers event handlers.
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20131207 23:13:03< AI0867> (that is, I'm looking at coverity's defect reports, and I can actually trigger the potential segfaults it warns me of)
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20131207 23:13:15< shadowm> Lua/WML event types are not registered anywhere. They just exist and happen as C++, Lua, or WML request dispatching a Lua/WML event.
20131207 23:14:26< shadowm> (E.g. in C++ that may be done by game_events::fire(), in WML by [fire_event], which wraps the Lua wesnoth.fire_event() procedure.)
20131207 23:15:14< shadowm> And this is all irrelevant for the core events code.
20131207 23:16:56< shadowm> AI0867: Does it actually suggest to check things with assert()?
20131207 23:17:28< AI0867> example: http://ai.ai0867.net/tmp/TEST_STATS.g
20131207 23:17:31< AI0867> er, gz
20131207 23:17:44< shadowm> I mean, considering the effects of cmake's fixation with -DNDEBUG...
20131207 23:18:01< AI0867> no, it just presents the problem, it does not suggest how to fix it
20131207 23:18:08< AI0867> I fixed a few with assert, but not this one
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20131207 23:25:49< irker615> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 20b0f3ac9415 / src/statistics.cpp: Fix a nullref if an unknown unit type is present in the statistics http://git.io/f1qstQ
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 08 00:00:37 2013