--- Log opened Wed Dec 11 00:00:02 2013
--- Day changed Wed Dec 11 2013
20131211 00:00:02< fabi_> Soon, there will be the first gaming console out there on which Wesnoth can be run out of the box:
20131211 00:00:08< fabi_> The "Steam Machine".
20131211 00:00:08< shadowm> So... hotkeys... dialogs. Since when do dialogs handle hotkeys?
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20131211 00:00:25< shadowm> What makes you think that will be the case?
20131211 00:00:40< fabi_> Gaming console players want to controll their game with their gamepads.
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20131211 00:01:26< fabi_> Thus every dialog in Wesnoth needs to be controllable by gamepad, best without the need to use a mouse emulation.
20131211 00:02:18< fabi_> There will be hotkey actions like "Okay" and "Cancel".
20131211 00:03:25< vultraz> shadowm: fabi_: I never removed any replay buttons
20131211 00:03:27< fabi_> Mostly meant to be bound to gamepad buttons.
20131211 00:03:56< fabi_> vultraz: No problem. It seems they never existed, at least not in the git repository.
20131211 00:04:33< fabi_> [01:00] <shadowm> What makes you think that will be the case? <---- Context?
20131211 00:05:27< shadowm> No, I don't handle much context because I'm not interested in gaming stuff in general, but what kind of userland is the Steam thing going to run with?
20131211 00:05:52< fabi_> x86 with a Linux operating system.
20131211 00:05:57< shadowm> Sorry, no.
20131211 00:06:06< shadowm> I asked userland. I know it runs a Linux kernel.
20131211 00:06:46< shadowm> But I think you are aware that the kernel doesn't make the OS, and applications need more than just a kernel to run.
20131211 00:08:52< shadowm> Don't take me wrong. I don't have a problem with Wesnoth aiming for gamepad compatibility, but I'd be wary of choosing the wrong rationale for that.
20131211 00:09:31< fabi_> Well, my current test system is my Desktop with a gamepad.
20131211 00:09:55< fabi_> Or the OpenPandora.
20131211 00:11:11< Rhonda> shadowm: Then maybe you should be more specific on which part of the userland you are wondering about?
20131211 00:11:52< fabi_> Rhonda: Well, he might be right there. I have no idea if the SteamOS will feature a libsdl version for example.
20131211 00:12:08< fabi_> The Steam Machine was only an example.
20131211 00:12:49< fabi_> A gamepad controllable Wesnoth can also make it's way on the Playstation or the XBOX.
20131211 00:13:00< fabi_> s/it's/its
20131211 00:13:42< shadowm> Wesnoth currently uses SDL 1.2 and SDL 1.2 (IIRC) only supports X11 and DirectFB as graphic frontends, for instance.
20131211 00:14:46< shadowm> (No, libcaca doesn't count.)
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20131211 00:15:51< fabi_> Well, that is the problem of a possible porter.
20131211 00:16:34< fabi_> My concern is just the gamepad support itself.
20131211 00:16:43< shadowm> Yeah, you see, this is why it's easier to just say Wesnoth will get gamepad support instead of coming up with the Steam thing as a sales pitch. :p
20131211 00:17:29< fabi_> Ah no.
20131211 00:17:33< fabi_> That is not enough.
20131211 00:17:50< shadowm> ... Why not?
20131211 00:17:56< fabi_> At least I had the discussion that gamepad support is completely useless for a game like wesnoth.
20131211 00:18:15< fabi_> And there my arguement is: Not if you want to reach the living room.
20131211 00:19:56< shadowm> Anyway, I need to go. I'll pester you about some problems with the terrains help later.
20131211 00:20:23< fabi_> okay
20131211 00:20:25< shadowm> Also, it sounds like you'll be hacking in the GUI2 core. I guess that requires plenty of courage.
20131211 00:21:13< fabi_> I will do the gui1 part
20131211 00:21:22< fabi_> And fill feature requests about gui2
20131211 00:21:45< shadowm> Okay, that's kind of underwhelming.
20131211 00:22:35< fabi_> :-)
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20131211 01:17:12< shadowm> wesbot: seen iceiceice
20131211 01:17:13< wesbot> shadowm: The person with the nick iceiceice last spoke 2d 2h ago.  2d 1h ago they left with the message: Remote host closed the connection
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20131211 06:31:25< irker216> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 3ec6250b4816 / src/actions/attack.cpp: Clear attacker_stats_ when skipping a weapon http://git.io/vTpgpg
20131211 06:31:27< irker216> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 27a0f40a53e2 / src/actions/attack.cpp: Fix a nullref http://git.io/azWJyA
20131211 06:31:29< irker216> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 0a7b0e5f02a9 / src/minimap.cpp: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/AqZcHA
20131211 06:31:30< AI0867> fabi_: ^
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20131211 06:59:14< shadowm> mattsc: Well, d'oh. I just realized that the custom tag into which I wired your code takes an SLF, not a SUF, so that might be the reason why it wasn't working.
20131211 07:18:10< fabi_> AI0867: Hello
20131211 07:19:04< fabi_> AI0867: Did you discover a concrete misbehavior you fixed with the commits?
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20131211 08:10:10< Rhonda> fabi_: Given that it's a linux distribution I don't think that it is higly unlikely that it's possible to install additional libraries.  Especially since stuff distributed through stream might actually require some of them, if they don't plan to embed the libraries for everything.
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20131211 08:12:04< fabi> hi Rhonda
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20131211 08:13:22< fabi> Rhonda: Yes, I bet the SteamOS will be a good candidate for running Wesnoth. Still I don't have any information that is backed up.
20131211 08:15:27< fabi> Rhonda: In theory they might use the linux kernel with a bsd user-land similar humiliated like apple fucked up macosx.
20131211 08:17:06< Rhonda> doesnt make sense
20131211 08:17:52< Rhonda> you are aware that they offer a steam client for ubuntu, are you
20131211 08:19:11< Rhonda> so why should they switch to a different userland for steam os
20131211 08:19:42< Rhonda> "because we can"?
20131211 08:20:56< Rhonda> thats a hypothetical unjustfied umcertainty
20131211 08:23:02< Rhonda> they already were in close contact with canonical for the linux client, so i have no doubt that steam os would swing a different direction. not without any hints to that
20131211 08:23:41< fabi> Rhonda: Well, I completely agree. 
20131211 08:24:00< Rhonda> erm, same, not different of course ;)
20131211 08:24:26< fabi> shadowm seemed to be not convinced that steamos will support Wesnoth.
20131211 08:25:09< shadowm> I'm not convinced that anything that has to do with Steam should be a reason for implementing long overdue features.
20131211 08:28:09< shadowm> And that's all, really. I don't care much about the subject either way.
20131211 08:28:40< Rhonda> It's not so much of steamos supporting wesnoth, it's rather the other way round, wesnoth supporting steamos.
20131211 08:29:19< Rhonda> I haven't installed any game through the steam linux client, but I fear each game does bundle its required libraries, for valid reason of incompatible API/ABI layers in libraries.
20131211 08:29:40< Rhonda> And not wanting to support every single distribution and package management dependency out there.
20131211 08:30:05< Rhonda> So it probably would be a matter of shipping either a static built wesnoth, or one that comes with its own library bundle.
20131211 08:30:40< Rhonda> shadowm: Right.  Noone is hindering you to implement long overdue features.
20131211 08:30:59< Rhonda> Thing on the other hand is, others might put their own priorities in a different place, and you should accept that.
20131211 08:31:25< shadowm> I was merely complaining about the sales pitch.
20131211 08:31:26< Rhonda> Everyone is working voluntary on the project, and if someone likes to invest their time into steamos support for wesnoth, it's *their* time, and *their* decision to do so.
20131211 08:31:38< Rhonda> We don't do sales anyway. :)
20131211 08:32:00< shadowm> Yes, except that the feature in question isn't about steamos in particular, hence why I was complaining that steamos is somehow the leading line in it.
20131211 08:32:24< Rhonda> Pal, don't get wound up that easily. :)
20131211 08:33:01 * Rhonda . o O ( <shadowm> I. AM. NOT. WOUND. UP!!!!1! )
20131211 08:33:10 * Rhonda huggles shadowm ;)
20131211 08:37:36< fabi> :-)
20131211 08:48:58< shadowm> fabi: Under what conditions will a terrain overlay enter the help system?
20131211 08:49:25< shadowm> Assuming there is or will be a mechanism in place akin to the unit discovery system.
20131211 08:50:15< fabi> We already have a terrain discovery system.
20131211 08:50:23< fabi> Since ages.
20131211 08:51:06< fabi> But don't ask me were it was used.
20131211 08:51:12< shadowm> Um.
20131211 08:51:34< fabi> I just know that there is a list of discovered terrains which I use that wasn't implemented by me.
20131211 08:52:12< fabi> The problem with overlay terrains is that they never make their way into the discovered terrains.
20131211 08:52:38< fabi> Because a pure overlay terrain can't exist.
20131211 08:52:48< shadowm> I imagine the discovery system was used with the static topics.
20131211 08:53:00< fabi> That might be.
20131211 08:53:28< shadowm> Okay, so as far as I understand, every (base) terrain gets a dynamically-generated topic now?
20131211 08:53:49< fabi> Every combined as well.
20131211 08:54:22< shadowm> Okay, so that means I might end up seeing something like Cave + <Internal Terrain the User is not Supposed to See> in the help?
20131211 08:54:23< fabi> Just every terrain on the map has its own topic.
20131211 08:54:32< fabi> No.
20131211 08:54:50< fabi> There is a topic for every terrain on the map.
20131211 08:55:04< fabi> Thus when you click on the terrain and ask for the help it will bring you there.
20131211 08:55:15< fabi> But the topics of the combined ones are hidden.
20131211 08:55:34< fabi> So they don't clutter the help.
20131211 08:55:40< shadowm> That might still be a problem if my <Internal Terrain the User is not Supposed to See> is intended to live up to its name.
20131211 08:56:00< shadowm> (Or if there are potentially 26 of them.)
20131211 08:56:28< shadowm> Unless the help system honors hidden=yes?
20131211 08:56:35< fabi> Well, the moment your terrain is on the gamemap and the user sees it... then he sees it, right?
20131211 08:57:11< shadowm> Not quite. The terrain by itself does not even have graphics unless the scenario locally defines graphics for it.
20131211 08:57:51< fabi> Can you give me a use case`
20131211 08:57:52< fabi> ?
20131211 08:58:11< fabi> You have a terrain that is on the map but without graphics?
20131211 08:58:38< shadowm> Yes, I came up with the idea two days ago to implement fake fog along with a WML-specified fade-out effect for it.
20131211 08:58:50< fabi> nice
20131211 09:00:27< shadowm> The basic fake fog terrain works the same for all scenarios because it comes with its own rules, but for the one scenario in which I need to implement the fade-out I use six additional terrain types (^&A through ^&F) along with variants of the fake fog terrain rules that apply the ~O() image path function on the graphics.
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20131211 09:01:24< shadowm> Theoretically I may use more ^&* terrains for something else later depending on whether I can come up with more ideas or not.
20131211 09:01:42< fabi> hide= is for the editor
20131211 09:01:47< fabi> hidden=
20131211 09:02:50< shadowm> So it doesn't affect the help system?
20131211 09:03:14< fabi> yes
20131211 09:03:23< fabi> I have implemented a hide_in_help=
20131211 09:03:30< shadowm> Er.
20131211 09:03:46< fabi> But I do not know if it is really needed.
20131211 09:03:56< fabi> It might vanish again.
20131211 09:04:11< shadowm> Okay, first of all, why doesn't 'hidden' affect the help too? Second, why is it 'hide_in_help' and not 'hide_help'? The latter would be consistent with the unit_type attribute.
20131211 09:05:19< fabi> It is "hide_help". I took the name from the unit_type attribute.
20131211 09:06:04< shadowm> Oh right, the terrain archetypes have help descriptions on purpose.
20131211 09:06:53< fabi> Yeah, you do not want to hide the archetypes in the help. But they don't make much sense to be actually be placeable in the editor.
20131211 09:09:10< shadowm> Suddenly 'hidden' seems like a deplorable choice for the terrain_type attribute name.
20131211 09:09:38< shadowm> (Yes, I am aware I came up with both the name and the code for that back then.)
20131211 09:10:22< fabi> Yes, but is it worth to break compatibility?
20131211 09:10:50< shadowm> Depends on whether you are asking lazy me or consistency enforcement me.
20131211 09:11:32< fabi> hide_editor?
20131211 09:11:52< shadowm> Of course changing attribute names is a chore, which is why things like canrecruit remain in existence to this day.
20131211 09:12:28< shadowm> And UMC maintainers tend to dislike that kind of changes.
20131211 09:13:09< shadowm> Being a UMC maintainer myself and having lived through the description/user_description -> id/name transition, well, I fully understand why.
20131211 09:14:16< fabi> Would you change canrecruit to can_recruit?
20131211 09:15:33< shadowm> ...I choose to abstain from inducing people to open that can of worms.
20131211 09:17:47< fabi> Well, at least can_recruit and canrecruit being an alias for the same thing wouldn't hurt.
20131211 09:18:20< shadowm> Yeah, it's easy to say that when you aren't taking serialization (in saved games, WML and Lua operations) into account.
20131211 09:19:04< shadowm> advanceto -> advances_to was a headache (for us UMC people) back in the day for that very reason, much like colour -> color.
20131211 09:20:21< fabi> Yeah
20131211 09:20:27< fabi> Replacing a string.
20131211 09:20:32< fabi> That is a headache.
20131211 09:20:47< fabi> It even hurts when I think about it.
20131211 09:21:01< fabi> It might be a one liner on the commandline.
20131211 09:21:36< shadowm> Well, I like that I currently have a massive campaign that runs both on 1.10 and master without having to maintain two branches.
20131211 09:23:03< shadowm> There are very few differences between 1.10 and master warranting #ifver overhead (overhead? wmllint doesn't understand #ifver, you can guess the rest) there, such as the ellipse semantics change; renaming such an ubiquitous attribute as canrecruit would turn the situation unsurmountable.
20131211 09:25:10< fabi> Well, I can live on with "canrecruit".
20131211 09:26:02< shadowm> Sure, an aliasof and advancefrom and probably a bunch of other run-on names I can't remember right now.
20131211 09:27:43< shadowm> The second most ubiquitous of all might be endlevel.
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20131211 13:48:32< AI0867> fabi: yes. If an AI unit had all (more than 1) of its attacks disabled, the choose_attacker_weapon function would segfault. After I fixed that, the next bit in the battle_context constructor would segfault because when a certain member is initialized, it assumes all the others are too
20131211 13:49:06< AI0867> (in fact, I remember a recent bug that triggered that same assumption. I should place some asserts there)
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20131211 13:57:30< irker857> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master b2b43a02cf90 / src/actions/attack.cpp: Place some asserts http://git.io/1OydNQ
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20131211 14:01:06< fabi> AI0867: Maybe you also fixed https://gna.org/bugs/?21277
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20131211 14:07:21< AI0867> huh, maybe
20131211 14:10:39< fabi> It is caused by attack_weight or defense_weight being set to zero.
20131211 14:12:45< AI0867> nope, but it now hits my assertion rather than segfaulting
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20131211 14:23:22< fabi> :-)
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20131211 20:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 202 bugs, 346 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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