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20131215 04:59:40< fabi> shadowm: around?
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20131215 05:03:47< Kjain> Hello
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20131215 05:55:37< shadowm> fabi: Yes.
20131215 05:55:44< shadowm> Probably. Depends.
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20131215 08:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 204 bugs, 346 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20131215 09:18:18< thunderstruck> shadowm: I think we should add a new add-on type called 'Hybrid Campaign' or similar.
20131215 09:18:33< thunderstruck> Because now, campaigns can be played both in SP and MP.
20131215 09:20:16< shadowm> SP/MP Campaign.
20131215 09:20:21< thunderstruck> Sure.
20131215 09:20:31< shadowm> I don't think there'll be a lot of that considering that maintaining a campaign alone is a lot of work.
20131215 09:21:38< thunderstruck> But it should be trivial to add that new type, right?
20131215 09:21:56< shadowm> Balancing for SP with three difficulties? So hard, I've never even finished balancing for Normal.
20131215 09:22:12< shadowm> Yes, it is trivial.
20131215 09:22:25< shadowm> You need to edit like 100 files.
20131215 09:23:56< thunderstruck> How come?
20131215 09:24:58< shadowm> I jest. It's just data/gui/default/window/addon_filter_options.cfg, src/gui/dialogs/addon/filter_options.cpp, src/addon/validation.hpp, src/addon/validation.cpp, src/addon/info.cpp.
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20131215 09:27:17< shadowm> Commit a71c308d65c8716cd070c111fcb0b46879fa60f8 by lipk should be an adequate reference.
20131215 09:28:24< thunderstruck> Right. I guess my sense of humour still hasn't waken up.
20131215 09:28:44< thunderstruck> So, you don't have anything against adding that new type?
20131215 09:30:30< shadowm> It seems pointless to me to define new add-on types preemptively before they start cropping up in production, but since a feature freeze is coming it'd be silly to not do so while we can.
20131215 09:32:51< shadowm> That means that I'm in favor of adding it.
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20131215 10:43:54< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: if your not busy studying for exams, I made some changes to lobby game advertisement layout
20131215 10:43:58< Coffee_irc> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39430&p=564119
20131215 10:44:42< Coffee_irc> ^ also for bumbadadabum or anyone else who may be interested
20131215 10:49:43< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: Looks good!
20131215 10:50:04< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: thanks
20131215 10:50:29< bumbadadabum> Coffee_irc: Perhaps you could add a little distance between the top row of buttons and the main window
20131215 10:50:44< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: But I guess you don't have difficulty name available in MP lobby?
20131215 10:51:02< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: I couldn't get the difficulty text :P
20131215 10:51:08< Coffee_irc> I don't know what to write to get it
20131215 10:51:28< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: Give me a sec. I'll check the code.
20131215 10:52:09< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: I think that's because I made the window smaller for the screenshot
20131215 10:52:18< Coffee_irc> that's not something I've changed in any way
20131215 10:52:23< bumbadadabum> ah ok
20131215 10:52:44< Coffee_irc> it's just the bopx with the advertisement for a game that I've edited
20131215 10:52:47< Coffee_irc> *box
20131215 10:53:04< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: 463 std::string create::select_campaign_difficulty()
20131215 10:53:10< thunderstruck> In multiplayer_create.cpp
20131215 10:53:28< thunderstruck> The difficulty define is available in mp_game_settings.
20131215 10:53:33< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: can I get that in multiplayer_lobby.cpp?
20131215 10:53:49< thunderstruck> Yeah. It comes with a config.
20131215 10:53:59< thunderstruck> Let me check that code again.
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20131215 10:54:39< thunderstruck> Oh, wait. I'm not sure if actual scenario/campaign config comes there.
20131215 10:54:42< thunderstruck> Probably not.
20131215 10:55:10< Coffee_irc> yeah, that was my impression
20131215 10:55:24< Coffee_irc> might take a little work to get it synchronized across
20131215 10:56:12< Coffee_irc> we can take a look after your exams
20131215 10:56:28< Coffee_irc> I don't want to be responsible for you not learning properly :P
20131215 10:56:56< thunderstruck> I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to pass actual game config's to the lobby.
20131215 10:57:25< thunderstruck> One solution would be to add that name to mp_game_settings.
20131215 10:58:11< thunderstruck> The other one, would be to find a campaign's config and use that define to retrieve name.
20131215 10:58:37< thunderstruck> But in this case, players must have that campaign installed, otherwise they won't be able to see difficulty.
20131215 10:59:14< Coffee_irc> too hard for me :P
20131215 10:59:24< Coffee_irc> I'll ask you again in a couple of days then
20131215 10:59:47< thunderstruck> I would be happy to do it then.
20131215 10:59:55< thunderstruck> And actually, it's quite straightforward.
20131215 11:00:02< Coffee_irc> you think it's good as is to push changes?
20131215 11:00:08< thunderstruck> Maybe I didn't explaint it well.
20131215 11:01:14< thunderstruck> I would say so. By the way, did you test how lobby looks for the player who does not have campaign installed?
20131215 11:01:21< Coffee_irc> the map icon I got a base from a GPL model on opengameart: http://opengameart.org/content/420-pixel-art-icons-for-medievalfantasy-rpg
20131215 11:01:25< Coffee_irc> and edited
20131215 11:02:01< Coffee_irc> I didnt test if the campaign is not installed, but it should say unknown campaign such and such
20131215 11:02:14< Coffee_irc> and same for the era
20131215 11:02:52< Coffee_irc> I kept the code from before for all that
20131215 11:03:30< thunderstruck> Then it should be good to go.
20131215 11:03:35< thunderstruck> then you should*
20131215 11:03:39< Coffee_irc> ok :)
20131215 11:04:05< thunderstruck> There's another reply in thread!
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20131215 11:10:01< irker455> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 90ebb538552e / images/misc/visibility.png src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp src/multiplayer_lobby.hpp: Slightly tweak multiplayer lobby icon spacings for advertized games. http://git.io/uYugZQ
20131215 11:10:03< irker455> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 86adae8b07a5 / images/misc/map.png src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp src/multiplayer_lobby.hpp: Move multiplayer lobby map size info to bottom icon area. http://git.io/nmmj-A
20131215 11:10:05< irker455> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 44431996c074 / src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: Make multiplayer lobby advertized game names and vacant slots bold. http://git.io/VrXCBg
20131215 11:10:07< irker455> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master ff77d473ef7e / changelog players_changelog src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp src/multiplayer_lobby.hpp: MP lobby advertized game layout changes. http://git.io/0qLLIQ
20131215 11:10:54< bumbadadabum> compiling this
20131215 11:11:19< Coffee_irc> wow, so much interest all of a sudden in this :P
20131215 11:11:34< bumbadadabum> I was always interested
20131215 11:13:14< Coffee_irc> bumbadadabum: you probably know already, but to test you need to start 2 clients
20131215 11:13:21< bumbadadabum> yeah I know
20131215 11:14:44< Coffee_irc> aparently the time feature for the lobby was there all along in the preferences
20131215 11:19:01< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: if campaign is unknown, the minimap area will be empty.
20131215 11:19:11< thunderstruck> This was before.
20131215 11:19:39< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: I put a test for the map size to see if missing
20131215 11:20:06< thunderstruck> And?
20131215 11:20:21< Coffee_irc> well, if the minimap is not there, the map size should not show
20131215 11:20:33< thunderstruck> I meant the actual minimap, not map size.
20131215 11:20:42< Coffee_irc> a bug?
20131215 11:20:46< thunderstruck> The space for it stays empty, if campaign is unknown.
20131215 11:21:00< Coffee_irc> is that supposed to be like that?
20131215 11:21:25< thunderstruck> I guess, I just didn't think about it when I introduced campaigns in the lobby.
20131215 11:22:10< thunderstruck> The problem is that, if a player does not have campaign installed, it does not have access to its data and so it can't draw minimap at all.
20131215 11:22:20< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: you basically need 2 people to test that -- one with the campaign and the other without
20131215 11:22:26< Coffee_irc> or a virtual machine
20131215 11:22:34< thunderstruck> Or a script.
20131215 11:22:46< thunderstruck> I can share it with you.
20131215 11:23:42< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36902762/wes2-no-conf-dir
20131215 11:23:59< thunderstruck> Change the path after --config-dir to some empty dir.
20131215 11:24:06< thunderstruck> The rest should be self-explanatory.
20131215 11:24:25< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: ok, that makes sense
20131215 11:24:38< thunderstruck> Anyway, do you have an idea what to do in such case?
20131215 11:24:55< Coffee_irc> thunderstruck: I just do whatever you did before :P
20131215 11:25:22< thunderstruck> Coffee_irc: I know. I'm just asking for ideas :)
20131215 11:25:39< Coffee_irc> it could get the map like for remote scenarios
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20131215 11:26:25< Coffee_irc> thing is that campaigns will likely include units or terrains that need the addon to be downloaded
20131215 11:26:40< Coffee_irc> so it would be nice if it could just prompt you to download the addon
20131215 11:26:57< Coffee_irc> but I don;t know if that would be too much to do before 1.11.8
20131215 11:27:07< Coffee_irc> this has been a feature request for a long time
20131215 11:27:41< thunderstruck> I once asked shadowm about this. It should be possible because addon manager was designed with this in mind.
20131215 11:27:57< thunderstruck> However, there will still be quite a lot of work to wire everything together, I think.
20131215 11:28:03< Coffee_irc> yeah
20131215 11:28:29< Coffee_irc> for campaigns though people often know eachother before playing
20131215 11:28:46< Coffee_irc> because they take longer and they don't want someone who will be hard to play with
20131215 11:29:02< Coffee_irc> so I think it will be alright as is
20131215 11:29:08< thunderstruck> lipkab: Hi.
20131215 11:29:23< lipkab> thunderstruck: Hello.
20131215 11:29:29< lipkab> How are you today?
20131215 11:29:52< thunderstruck> I'm fine. Revising for exams mostly.
20131215 11:29:55< thunderstruck> And you?
20131215 11:30:05< lipkab> Same.
20131215 11:30:09< thunderstruck> :)
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20131215 11:30:46< thunderstruck> I looked at your commits for filtering in mp create. I'm wondering if it would not be simpler to filter for only active game type?
20131215 11:30:54< thunderstruck> And the refilter on type change?
20131215 11:31:13< thunderstruck> And then*
20131215 11:32:27< lipkab> Maybe a bit simpler, but I don't think it matters too much.
20131215 11:33:09< lipkab> We could get rid of some code here and some there.
20131215 11:33:21< thunderstruck> Perhaps not. It's just that now code duplication is all around. But that's probably another problem.
20131215 11:33:23< lipkab> *add some there
20131215 11:34:06< lipkab> Yeah, true, but code duplication is all around in create_engine anyways ;)
20131215 11:35:25< thunderstruck> Do you have an idea how to solve it, since you looked at that code already?
20131215 11:37:28< lipkab> I haven't really thought about it; since the duplication (or rather multiplication) is caused by having different data types, it'd be rather hacky, I think.
20131215 11:38:55< thunderstruck> Well, perhaps that's not too much of a problem.
20131215 11:39:00< thunderstruck> I'm going back to my revision.
20131215 11:39:16< lipkab> Okay, have fun.
20131215 11:39:17< irker455> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master ccb0ea5067ee / src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: MP lobby: hide map icon in the event the map is not loadable. http://git.io/MWXNcQ
20131215 11:40:07< Coffee_irc> gl you guys with exams
20131215 11:40:32< lipkab> Thanks!
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20131215 15:41:32< mordante> servus
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20131215 16:21:05< fabi> hi mordante
20131215 16:22:20< mordante> hi fabi 
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20131215 17:46:42< fabi> shadowm: hi
20131215 17:47:15< shadowm> fabi: Please.
20131215 17:47:24< shadowm> Just... tell me already.
20131215 17:47:34< fabi> ?
20131215 17:47:48< shadowm> 01:59:40 <fabi> shadowm: around?
20131215 17:47:51< shadowm> 02:55:37 <shadowm> fabi: Yes.
20131215 17:48:05< fabi> Ah yearh
20131215 17:48:10< shadowm> You don't need to wait for me to answer to tell me/ask me whatever you need to tell/ask me.
20131215 17:48:12< fabi> we have been here before.
20131215 17:48:37< fabi> Have you read any of the discussions I had with zookeeper and vultraz about the map editor?
20131215 17:49:24< shadowm> No.
20131215 17:49:41< fabi> Well, I have 2 ways of storage.
20131215 17:49:46< fabi> map files
20131215 17:49:51< fabi> and wml files
20131215 17:50:12< shadowm> Yes, that's why I've continued to use the 1.10 map editor for my projects, pretty much.
20131215 17:50:17< fabi> The current solution with writing 2 files is not fit to go into a stable release, imho.
20131215 17:50:57< fabi> Yes, but you won't use 1.10 editor until the end of times.
20131215 17:51:07< fabi> We need to find a solution that suits your needs as well.
20131215 17:52:11< fabi> The more I think about it, the more I tend to use a strict solution.
20131215 17:52:22< shadowm> To be fair, I haven't really seen whether the 1.11 editor is still a mess like it was circa 1.11.2 (?) or so, with units being fully serialized and stuff like that.
20131215 17:52:47< fabi> It is still a mess.
20131215 17:52:47< vultraz> shadowm: I suggested a checkbox somewhere, preferably in the save dialog, called "Include Scenario Metadata" or something, that would toggle the saving of the .cfg file or not
20131215 17:54:31< shadowm> I would prefer to have the option to disable all editor features that require writing WML, in fact, but it seems like some things such as the ToD preview options have become attached to that same functionality.
20131215 17:54:54< shadowm> Let me see what WML is output for a plain map file...
20131215 17:55:19< fabi> nonsense
20131215 17:55:39< fabi> It is mostly the default serialization of the tod manager.
20131215 17:55:41< shadowm> current_tod,turn_at,turns=0,1,-1 and then a [time] tag with id=nulltod.
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20131215 17:55:57< fabi> pretty much useless and obsolete
20131215 17:56:00< shadowm> With an untranslatable name.
20131215 17:56:33< shadowm> The unit tool is grayed out.
20131215 17:56:46< fabi> you have no sides defined
20131215 17:57:11< shadowm> Also, where is the File -> Save option? I only see Save As.
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20131215 17:58:13< shadowm> Oh, it seems items placed with the Item Tool are not considered for anything, that's why Save didn't appear.
20131215 17:58:31< shadowm> And indeed, they aren't saved at all.
20131215 17:59:24< shadowm> The full side and unit configuration is serialized, yeah, not good.
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20131215 18:01:33< shadowm> Huh, what's the Mask option in the ToD dialog for?
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20131215 18:03:18< fabi> hi Adamant14
20131215 18:03:36< fabi> Adamant14: In #wesnoth-de we can talk in German.
20131215 18:03:59< fabi> shadowm: It is old stuff, I guess the mask option was part of [time] since ages.
20131215 18:04:11< shadowm> Is it?
20131215 18:04:33< shadowm> "the image displayed over all hexes during turns of this type."
20131215 18:05:09< fabi> Well, at least it's not a feature of mine.
20131215 18:05:49< shadowm> It vaguely sounds like something that might have been used in mainline at some point, not sure.
20131215 18:07:14< fabi> Okay, what I really like to discuss is how the editor shall handle already existing map files.
20131215 18:07:50< shadowm> Yeah, it was indeed used before the RGB shift system appeared, 804d114fad06ec258c2f738e50b8591c5d141898.
20131215 18:08:13< fabi> Assume you open a map of one of your campaigns. It is a plain map file like.
20131215 18:08:43< Adamant14> hi Fabi, hi all
20131215 18:09:13< fabi> The editor will safe it as a plain map file as long as you do not use any of the wml features.
20131215 18:09:47< fabi> All of the features requiring wml could be disabled at that time.
20131215 18:10:27< fabi> To prevent accidental usage and writing in a different format.
20131215 18:11:44< fabi> Adamant14: Hello, did you catch my message above? About the German channel?
20131215 18:11:49< shadowm> Cumbersome and non-intuitive.
20131215 18:12:09< fabi> better ideas?
20131215 18:12:42< shadowm> If the [side] and [unit] issues are any indication (plus the non-functional [item] serialization), it'd be better to just hide all WML-generating features under some option in the same vein as the experimental lobby switch.
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20131215 18:12:59< shadowm> By default.
20131215 18:13:10< fabi> huh?
20131215 18:13:39< shadowm> Which part merits a more detailed explanation?
20131215 18:14:26< zookeeper> i thought the discussion we had yesterday (?) ended up with some kind of concensus
20131215 18:18:47< shadowm> mordante: Did you see my email about cmake and assert?
20131215 18:20:00< fabi> zookeeper: Yes, it did. But I am still not sure about it. I thought shadowm might have some ideas or deeper insights.
20131215 18:20:59< zookeeper> okay
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20131215 18:23:44< shadowm> fabi: Well, your idea (I don't know what zookeeper's is) is cumbersome because you'll need to handle the first save of the map session especially, and non-intuitive because you will be changing the editor's behavior (the availability of WML-producing functionality) behind the user's back without warning (or if you do add a warning, it'll be annoying to see it at all).
20131215 18:24:22< shadowm> The user presumably doesn't know what WML is or what the difference between saving one way or another is.
20131215 18:24:27< zookeeper> shadowm, my idea was basically to do nothing else but give the user the option to save 1) plain map data only or 2) a scenario file with map data embedded
20131215 18:24:52< fabi> Which would work well.
20131215 18:24:56< zookeeper> it was left unclear how it should deal with opening scenario files with non-embedded map data
20131215 18:25:09< shadowm> (2) would have to be the default.
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20131215 18:25:43< shadowm> Unless you could hide all WML-generating functionality somehow. Otherwise it would only add another usability issue to the pile.
20131215 18:25:46< fabi> It is still unlcear how to handle unsaved data.
20131215 18:25:46< zookeeper> well, i was thinking there'd be no default, just two distinct save options (with enough explanation in the tooltip or subsequent dialog)
20131215 18:26:03< fabi> Assume you add a wml only feature.
20131215 18:26:12< fabi> That renders your map state to "changed".
20131215 18:26:17< fabi> Giving you the save option.
20131215 18:26:29< shadowm> Wesnoth's UI doesn't really lend itself to in-context explanations consisting of multiple paragraphs like the one we'd need for this.
20131215 18:26:32< fabi> But the just "save" option will save only a map.
20131215 18:27:08< shadowm> "Why am I seeing this question? What is WML? What happens if I don't save WML? What about all the stuff I worked so hard on placing all over the map?"
20131215 18:27:22< fabi> right
20131215 18:27:28< fabi> exactly. 
20131215 18:27:40< fabi> The user will have to deal with this questions.
20131215 18:28:07< fabi> Thus my suggestion: A "pure map" mode.
20131215 18:28:13< fabi> And a "Scenario Mode".
20131215 18:28:36< shadowm> You mean file saving mode, or general editor feature-set availability mode?
20131215 18:28:51< fabi> the later
20131215 18:29:14< shadowm> Isn't that exactly what I suggested after the "cumbersome and non-intuitive" complaint above?
20131215 18:30:00< fabi> You suggested to guard the features behind a commandline.
20131215 18:30:18< shadowm> ... No.
20131215 18:30:46< shadowm> Look at Preferences -> Advanced and look for the experimental lobby switch.
20131215 18:30:50< fabi> Ah 
20131215 18:30:59< fabi> Well, not much better.
20131215 18:31:32< shadowm> What would you propose for publicizing the option?
20131215 18:32:04< fabi> Say we are in map only mode and the user loads a scenario file.
20131215 18:32:07< fabi> What then?
20131215 18:32:21< shadowm> There are two possibilities:
20131215 18:32:31< shadowm> 1) Error out.
20131215 18:32:47< shadowm> 2) Switch modes automatically with a warning of some sort.
20131215 18:33:06< shadowm> 3) Switch modes automatically only for that scenario file.
20131215 18:33:38< fabi> Okay, you have 5 maps open: Then you load a file that needs switching the mode. That kills every extra data on all files, right?
20131215 18:34:01< shadowm> Although 3 is more like a separate possibility in addition to 2; that is, making the switch specific to that open scenario instead of making it global for the editor session.
20131215 18:34:39< fabi> So we have a default set in the preferences, and a file specific current state?
20131215 18:35:26< shadowm> Then 1. :p
20131215 18:35:33< fabi> uh
20131215 18:35:43< fabi> :-)
20131215 18:40:16< fabi> So far none of the suggested solutions is really making me happy. At the end every single one features a complex part and potential to confuse the user.
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20131215 18:41:21< shadowm> I think it's safe to assume loading a scenario file (in particular those partial files produced by the editor) will be rare enough to make a compromise.
20131215 18:42:30< fabi> hmm
20131215 18:42:58< fabi> I think most users will make use of at least one of the new features.
20131215 18:43:17< fabi> Thus loading old files will be the rare case.
20131215 18:43:20< shadowm> Not if they are concealed from them as we are discussing.
20131215 18:43:44< shadowm> This conversation was started by you acknowledging that the new features aren't ready for 1.12.
20131215 18:44:07< fabi> Ah no.
20131215 18:44:15< fabi> We talked about their current state.
20131215 18:44:46< shadowm> I'm not concerned about the current state since these are development versions and users are expected to embrace and report all bugs.
20131215 18:44:50< shadowm> BUT.
20131215 18:45:02< shadowm> The next version won't be just another development version if everything goes according to plan.
20131215 18:45:51< shadowm> If we go into beta, we can't afford having an unstable featureset frozen and eventually exposed by default in 1.12.
20131215 18:45:58< fabi> Well, if the editor features are not ready to go into the freeze, that freeze has to wait another version.
20131215 18:46:26< shadowm> That is also a possibility, but no-one has responded negatively to my last email in the schedule thread.
20131215 18:46:33< shadowm> Yet.
20131215 18:47:09< shadowm> There is still some time left to stop giving Ivanovic false hopes for this holiday season. ;)
20131215 18:47:25< fabi> Ivanovic: ^
20131215 18:48:14< fabi> Freeze delayed, now we can talk like most of the features make it into the stable.
20131215 18:48:44< shadowm> The editor map zoom slider has the triangly grabby thingy drawn above its groove.
20131215 18:49:35< shadowm> fabi: I'm not sure that counts as officially postponing the freeze, but okay.
20131215 18:50:42< shadowm> If the features make it into 1.12 (read: aren't broken) then I think the necessity for supporting stand-alone map files decreases significantly.
20131215 18:51:04< fabi> I thought so.
20131215 18:51:26< shadowm> In that case you might just add an advanced option to disable WML writing and all related editor functionality (and error out if the user attempts to load a WML file in spite of this).
20131215 18:51:47< shadowm> So essentially the same thing suggested above, except disabled by default.
20131215 18:52:38< fabi> I think (this is at least true for me) most people are going to do both: Edit conventional pure maps but also use the scenario writer.
20131215 18:52:52< fabi> Maybe even on the fly in the same session.
20131215 18:54:02< shadowm> Well, then, decide which mode to use for each open map depending on whether the map was first saved/loaded from WML/with accompanying WML.
20131215 18:54:21< fabi> Yeah
20131215 18:54:33< shadowm> (So that'd mean adding an option e.g. to the generic file dialog to disable writing WML, unchecked by default.)
20131215 18:55:03< fabi> "Save Map as"
20131215 18:55:09< fabi> "Save Scenario As"
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20131215 18:55:37< fabi> They can be used to switch the mode.
20131215 18:56:27< shadowm> Also add a warning if the player attempts to save a map with WML content as a standalone map.
20131215 18:56:29< fabi> And the file dialog can stay untouched.
20131215 18:57:07< shadowm> Yeah, I can see why you don't want to touch the file dialog. :p
20131215 18:57:28< fabi> :-)
20131215 18:58:23< shadowm> I attempted to add a dialog description/message field to it once (for the wesnothd search call path) and gave up mid-way through.
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20131215 19:00:30< fabi> Yes, I have also attempted an unsuccessful modification try on the file dialog.
20131215 19:02:40< fabi> shadowm: On a completely different topic, I like to add another MP campaign into mainline. LoW is a little lonely in the dialog.
20131215 19:05:18< shadowm> I can't say anything about that given that I haven't played any campaigns that I'd consider good or have MP support/potential.
20131215 19:05:51< shadowm> Making add-ons means I don't get to play much of other people's work.
20131215 19:06:53< fabi> The ancient "Elf War" is the first mp campaign (1.4) ever. It works quite well as a cooperative mp campaign. The story is simple but okay for the purpose. Only the prose is in a bad shape.
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20131215 19:14:32< zookeeper> i'd rather not have campaigns that are completely void of any meaningful story (i don't recall pretty much anything about elf war, but the name alone tells a lot, i believe) in mainline.
20131215 19:14:58< zookeeper> we already have a fair share of those.
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20131215 19:40:29< fabi> zookeeper: Which campaign do you consider to be completely void of any meaningful story?
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20131215 19:54:01< shadowm> All mainline campaigns have stories that are meaningful, it's just that they are all trite and repetitive.
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20131215 19:56:05< shadowm> Well, not all of them, just the majority.
20131215 19:59:18< zookeeper> fabi, well, it's an exaggeration in the context of current mainline campaigns. AOI comes pretty close though.
20131215 20:00:04< shadowm> I believe AOI used to be worse before entering mainline and having its prose rewritten in the process.
20131215 20:00:31< zookeeper> certainly
20131215 20:00:50< fabi> Well, the story of "Elf War" is not fantastic. Not even a good prose rewrite can change that.
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20131215 20:01:05< zookeeper> it still has no plot other than "oh no, orcs are invading our homeses, we must fight them"
20131215 20:01:28< shadowm> Surely a good rewrite could turn t into a parody of the "kill everything in sight" formula. :p
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20131215 20:47:20< AI0867> mordante: you're using cmake, right?
20131215 20:47:44< AI0867> interestingly, scons uses pretty much the same setup, but it still works (you're the only one who has complained)
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20131215 20:50:43< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 9811d46ff92d / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/01_End_of_Peace.cfg: SotBE S1: add bowmen to enemy AI recruit list http://git.io/Ks-mrQ
20131215 20:50:45< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 22b58cf4004f / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/03_Toward_Mountains_of_Haag.cfg: SotBE S3: clarify objectives http://git.io/vecIUw
20131215 20:50:47< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master dff106b8d38e / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/ (4 files in 2 dirs): SotBE: add side parameter to orcish shaman macros http://git.io/e1EkBw
20131215 20:50:49< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 3e5263fdb026 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/ (maps/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.map scenarios/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.cfg): SotBE S4: change the map to make scenario more interesting http://git.io/SbuzcQ
20131215 20:50:51< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 5f91abf23eca / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.cfg: SotBE S4: remove two pieces of dialog http://git.io/GlfHtg
20131215 20:50:53< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 349cc748dcb7 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.cfg: SotBE S4: move shamans to Side 1 at end of scenario http://git.io/fP-bMg
20131215 20:50:55< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master d13f49696d0d / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.cfg: SotBE S4: give the player control of side 3 orcs http://git.io/1fFE1Q
20131215 20:50:57< irker725> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master fd3e6e6fcca6 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/04_The_Siege_of_Barag_Gor.cfg: SotBE S4: balancing adjustments to gold, turns, ... http://git.io/8y_erQ
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20131215 21:00:38< mordante> AI0867, it depends on whether I enable shared libraries or not, if disabled all is fine, else it seems to fail
20131215 21:00:49< mordante> but I'm off now, night
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20131215 21:46:59< zookeeper> i don't like how using git(hub) with tortoisesvn seems to work for the initial checkout but subsequent update attempts don't.
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20131215 21:58:25< loonycyborg> zookeeper: Why not use tortoisegit?
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20131215 21:59:05< zookeeper> loonycyborg, because git sucks
20131215 21:59:47< Ivanovic> fabi: better send this to the ML!
20131215 21:59:55< Ivanovic> (that you want to have the freeze delayed)
20131215 22:00:33< loonycyborg> zookeeper: You mean for wesnoth?
20131215 22:00:37< zookeeper> yes
20131215 22:00:51< loonycyborg> Take it to ml and make them switch back :P
20131215 22:01:17< zookeeper> well that's a stellar idea :p
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20131215 22:17:42< shadowm> zookeeper: And specifically how does it suck?
20131215 22:18:37< zookeeper> i'm not gonna have the millionth git discussion right now, sorry
20131215 22:18:59< shadowm> Boo.
20131215 22:22:56< zookeeper> surely by now everyone knows all the usual reasons why (some) people dislike moving to git from svn. just like everyone knows the reasons why others like it.
20131215 22:24:18< shadowm> Not really.
20131215 22:24:55< shadowm> I can only think of one obvious reason but it's so silly I haven't given it much thought.
20131215 22:27:21< zookeeper> well, i'm not gonna get into it anyway, since i'm going to bed
20131215 22:27:43< zookeeper> i presume that the reason you're referring to is the lack of version numbers
20131215 22:28:02< zookeeper> but i don't think it's that silly, numbers are nice and useful after all.
20131215 22:28:11 * zookeeper goes
20131215 22:28:18< shadowm> They are an illusion.
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20131215 22:29:39< ChrisOelmueller> git describe has all your numbers
20131215 22:32:13< shadowm> The problem with SVN revision numbers is two fold: they are a misleading indication of user-friendliness (SVN is more user-friendly than Git until you hit a network error, then it goes to crap, but revision numbers aren't what make SVN more user-friendly otherwise) and create an illusion of linearity that evidently breaks when you start working in branches.
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20131215 22:33:07< shadowm> Some people also believe that revision numbers are inherently easier to work with than SHA1 hashes. However, I don't think people who can remember more than one 5 digits decimal number at a time are too common.
20131215 22:33:40< shadowm> At least not without the use of mnemonics, which could also be applied to SHA1 hashes.
20131215 22:36:41< shadowm> And yes, that's the silly reason I was contemplating back when I was evaluating Mercurial vs. Git too.
20131215 22:36:57< shadowm> I assumed that by now everyone had realized its silliness.
20131215 22:37:00< shadowm> ;)
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 16 00:00:33 2013