--- Log opened Mon Dec 16 00:00:33 2013
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20131216 02:40:35< loonycyborg> shadowm: I think hashing is as arbitrary as numbering.
20131216 02:41:03< loonycyborg> hashes and r-numbers are both illusion
20131216 02:41:28< loonycyborg> Different mappings from changesets to set of natural numbers
20131216 02:43:26< loonycyborg> I don't like how error-prone working with git is
20131216 02:44:28< loonycyborg> And I don't care about hashes vs r-numbers
20131216 02:44:39< shadowm> I don't think there is a real human-friendly solution to identify a ball of diffs and metadata.
20131216 02:46:18< shadowm> In all cases you'll need to copy-paste some opaque identifier (with SVN identifiers' opaqueness being directly proportional to their digit count) if you want to unambiguously refer to history objects.
20131216 02:47:52< loonycyborg> Of course.
20131216 03:00:40< AI0867> you could use some kind of canonical dictionary to make numbers map to code names. Adjective+noun should be good for a couple million unique identifiers
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20131216 03:20:03< shadowm> AI0867: That sounds like a thing Canonical would do.
20131216 03:20:47< shadowm> Which reminds me I'm disappointed they went for Trusty Tahr instead of Tardy Trichoplax.
20131216 03:21:36< shadowm> (To be fair, I doubt that idea ever existed outside of my channel.)
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20131216 07:03:08< zookeeper> shadowm, umm, revision numbers are very concrete, and there's no illusion of linearity: svn just _is_ linear.
20131216 07:03:45< shadowm> No, it isn't.
20131216 07:04:04< zookeeper> of course it is. how is it not linear? first thing happens, second thing happens, third thing happens, ...
20131216 07:04:10< shadowm> The history for the 1.10 branch tends to flow very separately from trunk.
20131216 07:04:26< shadowm> It's often the case that some changesets are specific to the branch and not required upstream.
20131216 07:05:16< zookeeper> sure. first thing happens (and it's in trunk), second thing happens (and it's in a branch), third thing happens (it's in another branch), ...
20131216 07:05:21< zookeeper> looks linear enough to me
20131216 07:06:44< shadowm> Then Git is just as linear. The concept of date/time is just as valid in Git as it is in SVN, perhaps even more so since Git can actually parse timestamps in certain formats where a refspec is needed.
20131216 07:07:32< zookeeper> sure, i never said git isn't just as linear :]
20131216 07:07:33< shadowm> Except where you have a non-empty and non-singular set of commits that somehow took place at the same time.
20131216 07:08:41< zookeeper> anyway, the other thing that's nice about numbers is that they actually tell you something, as opposed to a hash which is just a bunch of random characters.
20131216 07:09:12< shadowm> What does r51240 tell you that its corresponding SHA1 doesn't do?
20131216 07:09:52< zookeeper> it tells me that it dates back to... uh, maybe about 2008? wild guess.
20131216 07:09:58 * zookeeper checks
20131216 07:10:26< zookeeper> oh well, more like 2012 it seems
20131216 07:10:28< shadowm> You need to look up the commit date at least once and memorize/write it down somewhere to be able to know that.
20131216 07:10:51< shadowm> Not very different or useful (git show <refspec> would display the commit date just as easily).
20131216 07:11:18< zookeeper> uh, what? no, i just need to have an approximate idea of how old the project is and about what rev it is now.
20131216 07:11:23< shadowm> shadowm@nanacore:~/src/wesnoth% git log --format=oneline --all | wc -l
20131216 07:11:24< shadowm> 58739
20131216 07:11:37< shadowm> About 58739 commits including merges.
20131216 07:12:20< shadowm> I say about because the big history rewrite may have messed up the real count for the CVS and SVN portions of the full history.
20131216 07:15:54< zookeeper> if i see people discussing a few revisions (and mention the numbers, obviously), then i can immediately tell whether it's a case of "someone introduced a bug way back when" or "someone broke the thing i committed last week" or whatever. point is that they tell you _something_.
20131216 07:16:23< zookeeper> an identifier which tells you something is nicer than an identifier which doesn't, and in svn revision numbers are identifiers whereas in git it's hashes
20131216 07:17:37< shadowm> Yeah, now they are required to provide you that information or alternatively you can easily look it up yourself.
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20131216 07:17:46< zookeeper> and yeah, i often look at a revision number, alt-tab to a browser or a commit dialog or whatever and type down the five digits from memory.
20131216 07:18:05< shadowm> Plain numbers don't really suit themselves to uniqueness, unfortunately. And because of Git's design, you may actually pull and push commits from/to multiple repositories from the same downstream.
20131216 07:18:16< zookeeper> i'm quite aware of that
20131216 07:19:05< zookeeper> but quite naturally about 99% of the time 99% of people couldn't care less about being able to pull a random commit from any git repo in the world
20131216 07:19:21< shadowm> We work with pull requests, actually.
20131216 07:19:44< zookeeper> yes, i know
20131216 07:20:11< shadowm> I don't know about other people here, but if I'm going to merge somebody's PR I'll first pull it in a transient local branch so I can make sure it's suitable for mainline.
20131216 07:21:10< zookeeper> you're pulling from a wesnoth fork, not a random repo. the universal uniqueness of commits isn't what makes that possible, so please let's not try to pretend it does.
20131216 07:22:56< zookeeper> in any case, i'm sure you're convinced enough that you won't be able to convince me to like git, right? :p
20131216 07:23:49< shadowm> In general, adopting a defensive stance against changes like that when it's too late to do anything about it only leads to frustration.
20131216 07:24:19< shadowm> So hopefully GitHub won't decommission that unholy spawn of a VCS gateway any soon.
20131216 07:24:52< zookeeper> i didn't
20131216 07:26:01< zookeeper> loonycyborg asked, i answered
20131216 07:26:43< zookeeper> (and then you wanted to know why i think it sucks, etc etc)
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20131216 08:11:06< ChrisOelmueller> still curious as to what you're missing that `git describe` does not provide
20131216 08:25:04< shadowm> wesbot: seen Coffee_irc
20131216 08:25:05< wesbot> shadowm: The person with the nick Coffee_irc last spoke 20h 44m ago.  20h 19m ago they left with the message: Quit: Konversation terminated!
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20131216 08:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 205 bugs, 346 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20131216 08:52:06< shadowm> Coffee_work: Hi, around?
20131216 08:53:24< shadowm> Coffee_work: I was wondering if the animations engine precaches the images that will be rendered later during an animation sequence or it calls get_image() for them for the first time just prior to rendering individual frames.
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20131216 08:54:26< shadowm> For image mod-heavy instances, precaching would prove convenient since that may avoid some jittering, er...
20131216 08:54:31< shadowm> AndChat|427329: Coffee?
20131216 08:55:00< AndChat|427329> Yeah. Testing mobile chat
20131216 08:55:14< shadowm> Not sure if you read the beginning of my question?
20131216 08:55:23< AndChat|427329> Will get it right soon
20131216 08:55:54< shadowm> Hm, you mean the question, or the code?
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20131216 14:04:16< irker559> wesnoth: Andrius Silinskas wesnoth-old:master 79f0f286193a / src/multiplayer_lobby.cpp: Added campaign difficulty info for game item in MP Lobby. http://git.io/s45BFQ
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20131216 14:39:24< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#1158 (master - 79f0f28 : Andrius Silinskas): The build has errored.
20131216 14:39:24< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/15525377
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20131216 14:59:36< thunderstruck> AI0867: Last build failed why compiling with gcc.
20131216 14:59:56< thunderstruck> I'm currently recompiling it myself, and it seems that the same problem didn't happen for me.
20131216 15:00:18< thunderstruck> Is there a way to ask for Travis-CI to rebuild?
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20131216 16:24:55< AI0867> thunderstruck: yes, and it "errored", rather than "failed" ("errored" means travis killed it because it got stuck, rather than that something returned nonzero)
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20131216 21:55:28< shadowm> fabi: Haven't emailed the ML yet?
20131216 21:56:26< fabi> shadowm: Ah no.
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20131216 22:42:20< fabi> Ivanovic: ping
20131216 22:47:59< Ivanovic> fabi: pong
20131216 22:48:24< fabi> Ivanovic: happygrue wanted to include the Khalifate faction into mainline before it is too late.
20131216 22:48:48< Ivanovic> are they finally "ready enough"?
20131216 22:48:58< fabi> happygrue: ^
20131216 22:49:01< happygrue> more specifically, several people have been talking to me about it, and it seems like we could again talk about it for real :D
20131216 22:49:19< shadowm> 1.12 feature freeze confirmed for Christmas 2014 then?
20131216 22:49:35< happygrue> well, IMO they were always ready.  I was quite sad when they were removed.  So honestly, I can't answer that, it depends on if other people don't like stuff and rip them out again ;)
20131216 22:49:52< shadowm> I really want to know who asked for their removal to take place in the first place.
20131216 22:49:56< happygrue> but they are quite fun to play, and as balanced as they are going to get without being mainlined
20131216 22:50:09< shadowm> I always thought it was someone directly involved with the Khalifate maintenance.
20131216 22:50:10< happygrue> there is work that needs to be done, animations are needed
20131216 22:50:24< happygrue> I spoke to noy, who says he can finish unit descriptions by this week
20131216 22:50:53< fabi> shadowm: It was noy iirc.
20131216 22:51:09< happygrue> when that is done, I feel they will be great for development - they are not as good as default, but they are quite playable as default+khalifate
20131216 22:51:19< shadowm> fabi: No, please.
20131216 22:51:25< shadowm> No more IIRCs and rumors.
20131216 22:51:31< happygrue> there was a tournament a few months back that used them, along with the alternate era
20131216 22:51:44< shadowm> At this rate somebody will claim it was wesbot.
20131216 22:52:28< happygrue> I think noy and jb have both indicated including them is a good idea at this point, as an additional era
20131216 22:52:58< fabi> shadowm: Well, if you do not want answers, ask no questions.
20131216 22:53:26< shadowm> fabi: I don't see a question from me besides the feature freeze one. :)
20131216 22:53:39< fabi> [23:50] <shadowm> I really want to know who asked for their removal to take place in the first place.
20131216 22:53:53< shadowm> That's not a question. It has no question mark.
20131216 22:54:05< happygrue> let's not delve into the past
20131216 22:54:20< happygrue> the point here is, they are going nowhere, but are basically fun and good
20131216 22:54:29< fabi> I think adding the Khalifate is worth a delay.
20131216 22:54:32< happygrue> so much better than Age of Heroes, which we include
20131216 22:54:52< shadowm> I agree with fabi.
20131216 22:55:00< fabi> But if the prose is finished this week there would not even be one.
20131216 22:55:26< shadowm> fabi: Weren't you asking for a delay for the editor anyway?
20131216 22:56:49< happygrue> if not this cycle, then next is fine. What is still needed is nothing that I can do though, and that is bringing art and fluff and the like up the quality of other mainline stuff
20131216 22:58:04< happygrue> that is just not happening as I have no interest in it.  From a balance point of view, throw them in.  And the art right now is quite good IMO, maybe they need better animations and sounds and stuff, but that is something for others to improve on I guess, as I have been terrible at it :D
20131216 22:58:10< shadowm> Last time I checked the Khalifate baseframes were up to mainline standards, just lacking animations.
20131216 22:58:26< happygrue> some have animations, but not all
20131216 22:58:33< shadowm> It'd be silly to consider the animations a blocker seeing as how the current policy for mainline explicitly precludes animations.
20131216 22:59:07< shadowm> Animations as a requirement, that is.
20131216 22:59:11< happygrue> well, they all slide and make noise IIRC, but double checking that would be good
20131216 22:59:20< happygrue> I think few have actual nice animations
20131216 22:59:22< fabi> shadowm: I am still not sure. Maybe I can make it. Let me deceide in the next few days.
20131216 22:59:32< shadowm> Just look at the Elvish Scout, which is probably a more ubiquitous unit given HttT.
20131216 23:00:26< shadowm> If the Khalifate's animation WML needs to be improved, I can think of a couple of people who might be willing to take a look too.
20131216 23:01:06< happygrue> I will be happy to talk any such folks
20131216 23:02:24< happygrue> I will also mention that I lurk in #wesnoth-khalifate, which is usually quiet but anyone interested could also lurk there and bother me in a cozier space
20131216 23:04:25< happygrue> the current version of the era is available on both stable and development addon servers, on umc-dev, or you can just browse the units: http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/Era_Khalifate/en_US/era_khalifate.html  (though minor balance change isn't reflected there yet)
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20131216 23:25:50< bumbadadabum> <shadowm> If the Khalifate's animation WML needs to be improved, I can think of a couple of people who might be willing to take a look too.
20131216 23:25:53< bumbadadabum> I guess I could
20131216 23:29:12< happygrue> bumbadadabum: good to hear.  I honestly have no clue about what the standards are and such.  I care about the numbers but none of that fluffy stuff.  Let me know how I can help you or feel free to just dive on in
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20131216 23:37:13< irker939> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 8748b68b87b1 / src/scripting/lua_api.cpp: Fix a goto jumping past va_end http://git.io/-nplwg
20131216 23:37:14< irker939> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 0d18c7ca5696 / src/ (8 files): Move format_time_summary to its own file to fix linking issues http://git.io/MQ62zg
20131216 23:37:16< irker939> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 562a5be85cd5 / / (19 files in 7 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/-iz4LA
20131216 23:37:18< AI0867> shadowm: ^
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20131216 23:37:52< bumbadadabum> happygrue: Well, it's not hard to convert everything to the 1.11 syntax
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20131216 23:44:14< happygrue> hard is in the eye of the beholder, but I am glad to hear that
20131216 23:44:51< shadowm> It doesn't seem hard to me, but rather tedious and error-prone.
20131216 23:45:52< shadowm> I reckon some people are more willing to perform tedious house-keeping tasks than e.g. me.
20131216 23:46:56< shadowm> AI0867: Hang on, now I need to update the CB project file I think...
20131216 23:47:06< shadowm> Yep.
20131216 23:48:54< irker939> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 8592b52f4c15 / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp: CodeBlocks project update http://git.io/1OeBmw
20131216 23:49:04< shadowm> AI0867: Works for me with both scons on Linux and CB on Windows.
20131216 23:50:13< shadowm> wesbot: seen anonymissimus
20131216 23:50:13< wesbot> shadowm: The person with the nick anonymissimus last spoke 2d 3h ago.  2d 2h ago they left with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]
20131216 23:50:26< shadowm> Does anyone else build Wesnoth on Windows here?
20131216 23:51:12< shadowm> I want to know if the HttT description is rendered with one or two linebreaks between the description and the parenthetical difficulty/length line for you.
20131216 23:51:18< shadowm> On Windows.
--- Log closed Tue Dec 17 00:00:34 2013