--- Log opened Mon Dec 23 00:00:14 2013
--- Day changed Mon Dec 23 2013
20131223 00:00:14< shadowm> Yeah, well, it's based on a lengthy IRC log between exasperation and mordante around that time.
20131223 00:00:46< fabi_> shadowm: It is from 2011. And seems like a case of: Wait until I finished gui2.
20131223 00:01:23< shadowm> I have read the log a couple of times before and while I agree that <redacted>'s unilateral decision to expose GUI2 through Lua was a bad idea from an engineering standpoint, GUI2 Lua has been available since 1.9.x and there are a few add-ons that use it.
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20131223 00:01:50< shadowm> That tiny patch would hardly be a maintainability concern compared to the existing core functionality.
20131223 00:02:12< fabi_> Yes
20131223 00:02:48< fabi_> GUI2 is exposed to the "User Space". User Space == WML/LUA
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20131223 00:03:25< fabi_> Since ages. And I think it is a good idea, at least from a non technical point of view.
20131223 00:04:35< shadowm> What I mean is that GUI2 Lua is already there. If it's not been removed in spite of mordante's concerns we might as well use it while we can, and add tiny features like that that don't hurt anyone barring an internal GUI2 API restructuring (and in that case, that particular patch would hardly be the only affected feature).
20131223 00:04:50< fabi_> If you need that functionality and think that it is useful for others as well, then commit the patch. The gui2 staff can clean it up when they finish gui2.
20131223 00:05:09< shadowm> But I can't reach mordante, and he was the one who originally vetoed the patch.
20131223 00:05:35< fabi_> Well
20131223 00:05:53< fabi_> he needs to be more active on the gui2 thing to keep the control over it.
20131223 00:07:12< fabi_> Or did I miss anything?
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20131223 00:07:37< fabi_> When my informations are up to date, there has not been much progress an that front for the last two years.
20131223 00:07:40< fabi_> If not longer.
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20131223 00:09:12< shadowm> Last n months where n < 12.
20131223 00:09:38< fabi_> okay
20131223 00:10:23< fabi_> I tend to be unfair when gui2 is involved.
20131223 00:10:52< shadowm> It's not a matter of stepping on his toes or stealing GUI2 from him, but rather just convincing him to un-veto the patch.
20131223 00:11:56< fabi_> Well, maybe we need to talk about all the veto rights stuff anyway. 
20131223 00:15:17< fabi_> I mean, say I replace halve of libSDL tomorrow, with something homegrown. That means I am the master of that part of Wesnoth for all times, right?
20131223 00:15:51< fabi_> Because it wouldn't hurt my position in the project when I have my own fields of vetoing.
20131223 00:16:06< fabi_> I can  trade veto rights like big companies to with patents.
20131223 00:16:31< fabi_> s/to/do
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20131223 00:17:12< shadowm> Master of that module until you either leave or get hit by a bus, in which case we are supposed to run in circles flailing our arms and screaming like chickens.
20131223 00:17:28< fabi_> uhhh
20131223 00:17:30< fabi_> :-)
20131223 00:17:31< shadowm> Unless someone else can step up to maintain it.
20131223 00:18:02< fabi_> Unlikely.
20131223 00:18:21< fabi_> I just need to scare away anyone who works on sdl_fabi.
20131223 00:18:24< shadowm> Right now a good amount of code is in that situation, in fact.
20131223 00:19:40< fabi_> Sure, there are huge parts of code that still seem to be from dave.
20131223 00:19:42< shadowm> For example, is anyone here familiarized with the sound code to take a look at a couple of bugs I have found with it?
20131223 00:20:31< shadowm> (I have looked into them and they actually seem to be SDL_mixer bugs or limitations.)
20131223 00:20:52< fabi_> shadowm: Well, at least if you find a way to solve the problem, most likely won't there be anyone to veto your solution.
20131223 00:22:02< shadowm> Yeah, well, I imagine if I could prepare a patch to fix the infinite GUI2 blur bug (which is the reason why dialogs with interactive widgets like the titlescreen don't get a background blur for increased readability) it'd get accepted.
20131223 00:22:45< shadowm> The problem is that GUI2 is a work in progress and neither I nor anyone else knows or understands all the nuances of some of its design principles.
20131223 00:24:02< shadowm> So bugs like that one <https://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=19165> can't be solved by anyone but the author as a result.
20131223 00:24:24< shadowm> That is fair and all, if it weren't for the fact that GUI2 is a work in progress used in a production environment.
20131223 00:24:31< Coffee_irc> lol, wesnoth is in such a priveliged position that people must jostle for the change to fix bugs :P
20131223 00:24:51< Coffee_irc> *chance
20131223 00:26:47< shadowm> I compiled the design documents from doc/ the other day expecting to find all the answers to finally understand why GUI2 is currently implemented the way it is, but all I found was inconclusive in that regard.
20131223 00:28:12< fabi_> Coffee_irc: Well, the gui2 situation is a real problem. An annoying one. I can't laugh anymore about it.
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20131223 00:29:36< Coffee_irc> yeah, it would be nice to have a more standardized GUI so that when you search for a scrollbar or something there are not 2 of them
20131223 00:30:16< shadowm> That's because GUI2 still doesn't support all GUI1 features cleanly or at all.
20131223 00:30:42< Coffee_irc> at the moment it looks like there is 2 of most things and this could lead to bugs being fied in one and not the other
20131223 00:30:51< Coffee_irc> *fixed
20131223 00:30:52< shadowm> (Multi-page dialogs like Preferences can be done in GUI2 by violating the intended GUI2 protocol, for example, and combo boxes haven't been implemented in GUI2 yet.)
20131223 00:31:40< shadowm> (Although I've been thinking about finally giving them both a shot. It's just that GUI2's complicated widget implementation layout is intimidating. :x)
20131223 00:32:37< Coffee_irc> GUI1 is certainly hard to extend outside of a narrow scope
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20131223 00:33:20< shadowm> They both have their strengths and disadvantages.
20131223 00:33:24< fabi_> indeed
20131223 00:33:29< Coffee_irc> it hardcodes specific areas the layouts for buttons
20131223 00:34:23< Coffee_irc> at least it is not java widgets :)
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20131223 00:35:31< Coffee_irc> is there a list of what needs to happen with GUI2?
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20131223 00:38:37< shadowm> Coffee_irc: All open GUI2 bugs are assigned to mordante.
20131223 00:39:05< shadowm> And he has all the plans for obvious reasons.
20131223 00:39:17< shadowm> Just... not the time.
20131223 00:40:52< shadowm> And in general, anything that's missing needs to happen. What is usually publicly unknown is how.
20131223 00:40:56< Coffee_irc> I'm only new here still, but you could potentially share the creation of the various widgets
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20131223 00:43:06< fabi_> Coffee_irc: I need a system to handle hotkeys better.
20131223 00:43:34< shadowm> That doesn't sound like a GUI framework task. :p
20131223 00:43:42< fabi_> It is.
20131223 00:43:54< fabi_> GUI2 isn't very hotkey friendly.
20131223 00:43:58< fabi_> gui1 is.
20131223 00:44:32< fabi_> well not really.
20131223 00:44:33< shadowm> GUI2 is actually supposed to be more hotkey-friendly than GUI1, hence the titlescreen hotkeys bug was closed with the deployment of gui2::ttitle_screen.
20131223 00:45:15< shadowm> GUI2 does use a different event loop, though, and I am still unsure exactly how it interacts with the core event loop.
20131223 00:46:00< Coffee_irc> fabi_: I assume you mean mouse click hotkeys?
20131223 00:46:05< shadowm> I have seen substantial evidence suggesting that it has to handle SDL events directly.
20131223 00:47:19< fabi_> Coffee_irc: no
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20131223 00:49:20< Coffee_irc> I don't really know too much about it to be of any real help
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20131223 00:51:52< fabi_> Coffee_irc: What is your field of expertise? Do you have Wesnoth related projects?
20131223 00:52:13< Coffee_irc> fabi_: well, I am working on the animations stuff with boucman
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20131223 00:52:31< shadowm> I'm looking at the infinite blur bug again.
20131223 00:52:44< Coffee_irc> but I feel like doing a bit of general bugfixing at the moment
20131223 00:53:12< shadowm> src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp line 1462 seems confusing. Why add a comment block for planning such a trivial change? :?
20131223 00:54:22< shadowm> This is where I feel like I've just stumbled head first into a dark alley at night.
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20131223 00:54:55< shadowm> It's someone else's code and it shows more than anywhere else.
20131223 00:55:19< shadowm> If I proceed any further, I could get mugged or worse.
20131223 00:56:01< shadowm> (See also: all the code comments including the name 'fendrin'.)
20131223 00:56:11< Coffee_irc> fabi_: I also have some UMC projects I maintain and am working on, so am keen on certain things working
20131223 00:58:04< fabi_> shadowm: I can't find "fendrin" in there.
20131223 00:58:24< shadowm> fabi_: Not in GUI2, elsewhere.
20131223 00:58:47< shadowm> http://pastebin.com/6tmEQjjr
20131223 01:02:22< fabi_> Coffee_irc: The TODO fendrin remind me on another thing: GUI2 dialog for assigning joystick axis.
20131223 01:03:11< Coffee_irc> interesting
20131223 01:03:28< Coffee_irc> fabi_: do you have the accessories to test that
20131223 01:03:39< Coffee_irc> and the mouse scroll sidways and such
20131223 01:03:42< Coffee_irc> ?
20131223 01:04:49< fabi_> Coffee_irc: Sorry, what do you mean?
20131223 01:04:54< fabi_> What is needed to be tested?
20131223 01:05:23< Coffee_irc> fabi_: I assume you'd need the special equipment to test a joystick?
20131223 01:05:43< fabi_> USB port
20131223 01:05:51< fabi_> And a gamepad or joystick.
20131223 01:05:53< fabi_> I have both.
20131223 01:06:13< Coffee_irc> I suppose I just didn't think of playing wesnoth with a joystick :)
20131223 01:06:44< fabi_> I played hex field and turn based strategie games on the Amiga with joystick.
20131223 01:06:48< fabi_> That worked well.
20131223 01:07:22< Coffee_irc> might be fun to play wesnoth on the wii :P
20131223 01:07:41< fabi_> The moment we support SDL2 I can add rumble support.
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20131223 01:36:39< shadowm> OK, so, in sdl_utils.hpp we have two overloads of blur_surface(). One takes a signed int, the other takes an unsigned int.
20131223 01:36:52< shadowm> The one that takes a signed int passes that to the one that takes an unsigned int.
20131223 01:37:01< fabi_> hmmm
20131223 01:37:07< shadowm> Without checking that it's not negative.
20131223 01:37:13< shadowm> How come gcc doesn't complain about this?
20131223 01:37:44< fabi_> or any other compiler
20131223 01:37:53< fabi_> since we test with many
20131223 01:42:21< shadowm> I found an apparent fix for the GUI2 infinite blur bug.
20131223 01:42:29< shadowm> But it makes no sense at all.
20131223 01:43:32< fabi_> :-)
20131223 01:44:15< shadowm> It also results in more CPU usage than necessary on 32 bpp.
20131223 01:45:42< fabi_> Sometimes people claim that Wesnoth is not demanding a strong machine.
20131223 01:45:47< fabi_> But that is not true for me.
20131223 01:46:02< fabi_> Well, might be that I mostly deal with the debug build.
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20131223 01:47:32< shadowm> Yes, -O0 consumes an inordinate amount of resources compared to -O3.
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20131223 01:48:01< shadowm> I mean the resultant executable, not the build process.
20131223 01:50:26< shadowm> If you want to play or benchmark the game you definitely shouldn't be looking at -O0.
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20131223 01:52:41< shadowm> So the problem is in the neutral surface path (line 7) in pastebin.com/ZQbEPR6F .
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20131223 01:53:00< shadowm> And that makes no sense because that overload of blur_surface() calls the one used in the non-neutral path!
20131223 01:53:53< shadowm> So I'm not sure if I just randomly came up with panacea and the problem is actually more obscure, or...?
20131223 01:54:39< AI0867> that @todo
20131223 01:54:50< AI0867> we should make this single line change
20131223 01:54:58< AI0867> okay, WHY ISN'T IT DONE THEN?
20131223 01:55:00< shadowm> Sorry, I got it the other way around. The non-neutral path's overload of blur_surface() calls the same one used in the neutral path.
20131223 01:55:02< AI0867> what's the problem?
20131223 01:55:09< shadowm> My point still stands.
20131223 01:56:09< shadowm> So I'm looking hard at blur_surface() trying to spot the difference aside from the presence of a different intermediate neutral surface in the overload used in the non-neutral path.
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20131223 01:57:36< AI0867> also looking...
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20131223 01:58:04< shadowm> (tcanvas::blit is implemented in src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp line 1456 if anyone wants to take a look. Also consider uncommenting the [pre_commit] block in data/gui/default/widget/panel_title_screen.cfg and checking the titlescreen.)
20131223 02:03:53< shadowm> My best guess is that the surface passed to tcanvas::blit() is special in some low-level way.
20131223 02:04:55< shadowm> So it's somehow treated differently by sdl_blit and blur_surface.
20131223 02:07:07< AI0867> are you sure blur_alpha_surface has nothing to do with this?
20131223 02:07:37< shadowm> It's not used in either case.
20131223 02:08:41< shadowm> Should it? Well, the regular blur_surface() overload used on the non-neutral path works just fine since it creates an intermediate surface.
20131223 02:08:51< shadowm> blur_alpha_surface() would also create an intermediate surface.
20131223 02:09:32< shadowm> I don't know what the actual differences between blur_surface() and blur_alpha_surface() are.
20131223 02:10:46< shadowm> It's also worth keeping in mind that this only affects GUI2 widgets overlapped by interactive ones.
20131223 02:11:39< shadowm> The paradox is that even in that case with the current code, you should get an infinitely overpainted transparent background with blur disabled, but that doesn't happen.
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20131223 02:12:27< shadowm> It's the direct vs. indirect blurring of the target surface that results in the infinite blur.
20131223 02:14:26< AI0867> yeah, just adding false && to that if does fix things
20131223 02:14:44< shadowm> Because in the non-neutral case, even though you do use indirect blurring on an intermediate surface, you still blit the result into the same target with the same parameters.
20131223 02:15:20< AI0867> fabi_: 800x480 is still quite broken
20131223 02:15:48< shadowm> From a performance standpoint, though, we ideally shouldn't opt for that fix.
20131223 02:17:16< AI0867> fabi_: http://ai.ai0867.net/tmp/broken_gui_800x480.png
20131223 02:18:07< AI0867> shadowm: well, is this function used much?
20131223 02:18:16< AI0867> if not, it's an acceptable workaround IMO
20131223 02:18:26< shadowm> It will if we enable blurring behind [message] dialogs and the titlescreen panels.
20131223 02:18:49< AI0867> well, do some performance tests on crappy hardware and see
20131223 02:18:52< shadowm> It will be called every time the relevant widgets need to be redrawn. The infinite blur bug shows that that is quite often.
20131223 02:18:57< AI0867> do you have any lying around?
20131223 02:19:03< shadowm> In particular, whenever a widget within needs tobe redrawn.
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20131223 02:19:29< shadowm> AI0867: No, but I did notice some lag with the titlescreen buttons' mouseover when setting the blur radius to 11.
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20131223 02:20:03< AI0867> fabi_: do I need to file a bug for this?
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20131223 02:21:08< shadowm> 800x480 didn't seem that broken a couple of days ago.
20131223 02:23:06< AI0867> it's been that broken for me for weeks
20131223 02:23:28< AI0867> the broken streaks need a bit of work to get them to show up though
20131223 02:23:36< AI0867> but the sidebar is always that broken
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20131223 02:24:28< shadowm> Oh well, I don't think I tried selecting units then.
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20131223 02:34:22< irker883> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 5e2845bfea50 / src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp: gui2: Do not optimize intermediate surfaces on tcanvas::blit() http://git.io/4ljYSQ
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20131223 02:40:10< shadowm> Okay, the overload used in the else path converts the surface to the neutral format rather than cloning it into a new neutral surface.
20131223 02:40:48< shadowm> But using the same overload from the neutral path on the else path works just fine.
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20131223 02:41:09< shadowm> Only because I'm on 32 bpp, I guess.
20131223 02:42:09< shadowm> Okay, so I guess I can't really optimize the else path any further.
20131223 02:43:33< shadowm> Well, yes, actually, there's no reason to clone the SDL_Rect.
20131223 02:44:02-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 204 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20131223 05:42:19< irker883> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master e0ca387a55c1 / src/multiplayer_create_engine.cpp: Remove duplicate try_modifications MP mod code for when scenario doesn't match http://git.io/71z69w
20131223 05:42:21< irker883> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master b3fe2faea400 / src/ (3 files): if mp mods conflict on game creation screenfix jump to scenario type. http://git.io/adbQ9g
20131223 05:42:23< irker883> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 91f3c75eda52 / src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/ViQS2w
20131223 05:42:54< mattsc> Hey zookeeper.  I have the attack part of the AI written and integrated into the scenario.  I won't get to working on the retreat portion probably for at least 24 hours or so.
20131223 05:43:12< zookeeper> mattsc, oh, cool
20131223 05:43:13< mattsc> Should I commit (or send to you) what I have so far now, or wait until it is all done?
20131223 05:44:19< zookeeper> there's no immediate hurry so i guess wait... i could get the map + scenario changes in first
20131223 05:45:25< mattsc> okay, sounds good.
20131223 05:47:19< mattsc> The attack rating is very simple.  If you can die, don't attack.  Otherwise: kill percentage of enemy is most important, followed by damage done to enemy, followed by damage done to attacker (negative rating); and small bonus for attacking with the unit with the most HP.
20131223 05:48:07< mattsc> Nothing else is taken into account, so that should make for very aggressive attacks.
20131223 05:48:28< mattsc> And we can always fine-tune things later if it isn't quite working as we expect.
20131223 05:48:51< zookeeper> sure, i'd expect that it'll need at least a bit of tuning until it's final
20131223 05:49:09< mattsc> It always does ...
20131223 05:50:10< irker883> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 21e63696701d / src/multiplayer_create.cpp: if mp mods conflict and scenario type changes, update text accordingly http://git.io/Few4Lg
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20131223 06:05:11< fabi_> shadowm: ctrl+o is a bit of a problem.
20131223 06:05:50< fabi_> It is not working because it is part of the game scope.
20131223 06:06:21< fabi_> Which is no longer active in (on/at ?) the title screen.
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20131223 06:58:28< irker883> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 13446f55c9d7 / data/themes/default.cfg: Fix the default theme for small resolutions to some degree. http://git.io/k07JqA
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20131223 07:05:12< fabi_> AI0867: ^ Still not perfect but better. There is some artwork pending. I will adjust everything again when it is ready.
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20131223 08:56:25< fabi_> Turuk: around?
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20131223 08:57:59< fabi_> Turuk: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=564578#p564578 His point number 5. This is something that needs urgently some attention from both, writters and the mp folk.
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20131223 10:03:04< zookeeper> core/images/halo/undead/ idle-flash-1 and idle-flash-4 seem broken
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20131223 12:24:19< Turuk> fabi: I'll look into it today
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20131223 12:45:14< lipkab> Coffee_irc: You are awesome.
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20131223 13:42:25< fabi_> wesbot: seen Espreon ?
20131223 13:42:25< wesbot> fabi_: The person with the nick Espreon last spoke 26d 8h ago.  19d 15h ago they left with the message: Remote host closed the connection
20131223 13:44:34< bumbadadabum> fabi_: Espreon is on wesbreak
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20131223 13:56:41< lipkab> fabi_: But... we can 
20131223 13:56:59< lipkab> ...find him for you, if it's something *really* important...
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20131223 14:22:01< AI0867> fabi__: screen tearing is still there and ToD modifier is still misplaced, but everything else seems fixed
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20131223 14:31:38< fabi__> screen tearing?
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20131223 14:34:35< AI0867> see the minimap in my screenshot
20131223 14:34:57< AI0867> perhaps screen tearing isn't the best description
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20131223 14:42:01< mattsc> zookeeper: I am wondering what I should use as a criterion to make units retreat to villages (as opposed to simply stepping out of the way for a stronger unit, which the attack code already does).
20131223 14:42:33< mattsc> HP less than a certain value?  HP less than 30% of max_HP or something?
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20131223 14:45:44< zookeeper> something like that. maybe rather something less fuzzy so it can't be gamed in a too obvious way... like, retreat if any player unit in range would have >50% chance of killing it? i dunno if that's really simple or really complicated to do.
20131223 14:46:13< zookeeper> % of HP left is the probability that a unit retreats to heal? :J
20131223 14:48:12< zookeeper> err, i mean (100%) - (% of HP left), of course
20131223 14:48:25< mattsc> I understood  :)
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20131223 14:49:35< mattsc> The former isn't hard, it just takes a bit of calculation time, the problem with it is that our Great Mage probably has a 50% chance of killing fully healthy L1 units.
20131223 14:50:11< mattsc> But I like the idea of making it some fuzzy random limit .
20131223 14:50:31< zookeeper> i like fuzzy random limits for these kind of purposes
20131223 14:50:57< zookeeper> makes it unpredictable on the micro level
20131223 14:51:48< mattsc> Yeah.  We've also noticed several times with our MP AIs that we will have to include some sort of randomness in them at some point or it's too easy to game them, just as you said.
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20131223 15:02:41< boucman_work> mattsc: how about basing it on "how many units are available to do the job while they are away to heal" or something like that ?
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20131223 15:05:10< mattsc> boucman_work: that sounds like a good idea for a "full AI".  I'm not sure if it's the right thing for the special application zookeeper and I are currently talking about.  I'll have to think about that.
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20131223 15:05:43< boucman_work> ok, i'm a bit out of context here :P
20131223 15:06:48< mattsc> We're trying to make TRoW A New Land a bit more interesting.
20131223 15:07:44< mattsc> The basic premise is that the scenario ends when a unit (any units) dies and the player is up against an AI that is extremely aggressive with the exception that AI units won't attack when they have any chance to die.
20131223 15:08:15< mattsc> The goal is to hold out for as long as possible without losing one of your own units or killing an enemy unit.
20131223 15:09:19< mattsc> The AI sides have plenty of units to throw at you, but we also want to build in a simple retreat-to-villages CA.
20131223 15:09:56< boucman_work> I'm not sure I understand... the goal for both the AI and the player is to have no unit die ?
20131223 15:10:06< happygrue> could you just retreat each unit with the lowest hp to a village it can reach until the villages within x hexes are full?
20131223 15:10:29< zookeeper> happygrue, well that's a decent idea
20131223 15:10:43< boucman_work> or the goal is to be the first to kill the oponent's unit ?
20131223 15:12:03< mattsc> boucman_work: the scenario currently says "avoid conflict for as long as possible" and really doesn't work.  We want to keep that general pacifist idea for the scenario, but make it interesting.
20131223 15:12:22< boucman_work> hmm
20131223 15:12:33< boucman_work> I like the idea... let's find a way to make it work :P
20131223 15:12:33< mattsc> So the goal is for the player to hold out and rotate units for as long as possible without losing a unit.
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20131223 15:12:53< boucman_work> so the goal of the AI should be 
20131223 15:12:59< boucman_work> 1) kill an ennemy unit
20131223 15:13:05< zookeeper> boucman_work, the enemies will try to kill you and you have to avoid that and avoid killing any of them. you can only damage them enough that they limp back to heal in a village
20131223 15:13:12< boucman_work> 2) (moderatly) avoid loosing unit
20131223 15:13:14< boucman_work> in that order
20131223 15:13:30< boucman_work> ok
20131223 15:13:46< boucman_work> it works because the oponent is an AI and won't rig the game by suiciding units
20131223 15:14:14< mattsc> boucman_work: exactly - but the default AI will suicide units, so we need to put in something slightly different.
20131223 15:14:16< happygrue> fabi__: yes, that is some good feedback from Bob the Mighty that you linked to, I agree that #5,6 should get some attention.  Regarding #6, I think we have enough scenarios now (and expecially with UMC) that having them all in one long scrollable list is not ideal
20131223 15:14:17< boucman_work> but it should still take chances to kill a unit that could also result in him loosing a unit, I guess
20131223 15:14:52< happygrue> fabi__:  I would think some subdirectories or something to sort them by would be best?  Other ideas?
20131223 15:15:23< mattsc> happygrue: yes, something like that (for retreating units), but there still needs to be some threshold when you start the retreating.  If you have one 80 HP unit that is missing 5 HP, you won't retreat it just because there are open villages.
20131223 15:15:27< boucman_work> is there something explaining that units are coward in the scenario ?
20131223 15:15:28< fabi__> happygrue: The problem is: They are not scaned by directory but taken out from the wml tree by searching for "Multiplayer".
20131223 15:15:33< fabi__> [multiplayer]
20131223 15:16:07< happygrue> mattsc: if only one unit has damage and you have plenty of other units, then healing 5 hp is still a fine thing to do IMO
20131223 15:16:09< fabi__> happygrue: Thus means we can not discriminate between "real" scenarios and simple one only wrapping a map and defining some teams.
20131223 15:16:32< happygrue> or setting a 60% hp left threshold to trigger it, or something
20131223 15:16:40< mattsc> happygrue: I guess so ...  We'll just have to see how it works in the scenario.
20131223 15:16:42< zookeeper> boucman_work, there'd be a mention of that in dialogue or objectives
20131223 15:17:23< boucman_work> so, the retreating shouldn't be based on "how much HP is left" but how many units can hold the front line/who is the most important to heal
20131223 15:18:00< boucman_work> and the AI will have less and less solid units to oppose, to the point where it breaks eventually
20131223 15:18:04< happygrue> if hp gets to low then AI will charge in with a unit and kill istelf, which would be failure, right?
20131223 15:18:14< fabi__> happygrue: I have asked Turuk to help with #5. This has to happen quite fast, the string freeze.
20131223 15:18:40< happygrue> yes, I agree that those things are way out of date
20131223 15:19:11< zookeeper> boucman_work, well the AI would have enough income that their numbers would just keep increasing until they will overwhelm you no matter what you do
20131223 15:19:13< happygrue> I guess I don't know how to deal with #6 then, other than it can surely be improved somehow
20131223 15:19:24< mattsc> boucman_work, happygrue: well, the way I understand it (correct me if I am wrong, zookeeper) is that the ...
20131223 15:19:30< mattsc> yes, what zookeeper just said
20131223 15:19:35< boucman_work> ok
20131223 15:20:05< mattsc> So the AI will always have enough strong/healthy units for the front line.
20131223 15:20:22< mattsc> It's a "hold out as long as possible" scenario with a twist.
20131223 15:20:22< happygrue> but it will end the scenario if the AI kills itself, right?
20131223 15:20:40< mattsc> It will end when any units dies, no matter on which side.
20131223 15:21:17< boucman_work> and we don't want the AI to retreat all wounded units, because it would be boring
20131223 15:21:37< boucman_work> ok, so yes... low HP sounds good (for a proper definition of low hp)
20131223 15:22:09< happygrue> perhaps under 25 hp and wounded?
20131223 15:22:27< happygrue> or some other number.  Just low enought hat it could easily die from charging in
20131223 15:23:35< mattsc> happygrue: sure something like that.  But note that I have change the attacks so that a unit will not attack if it has a chance to die.  Otherwise, it will go for maximum possible damage.
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20131223 15:24:00< mattsc> ... ^ and boucman_work 
20131223 15:24:06< happygrue> ah, I see
20131223 15:24:22< boucman_work> maybe still attack when it has a low chance to die ?
20131223 15:24:43< boucman_work> on the one hand, it's frustrating when a unit suicides, you have the feeling you didn't loose "properly"
20131223 15:24:52< boucman_work> otoh, it add more strategic depth...
20131223 15:25:02< happygrue> I agree, even 5% chance to end the scenario on bad luck is not a good idea
20131223 15:25:04< boucman_work> probably something that needs playtesting
20131223 15:25:33< happygrue> *bad luck from one attack
20131223 15:26:04< mattsc> boucman_work: yes, I was just going to say that.  It's a trivial change to the code, so we'll just see how it plays out.
20131223 15:26:07< happygrue> fabi__: if I understand you, that tag is only a factor from UMC though, which is less important and could all go in one place, right?
20131223 15:26:37< fabi__> happygrue: huh?
20131223 15:28:34< happygrue> I thought Bob was talking about the non-regular maps that come standard
20131223 15:28:41< happygrue> but I guess we don't have too many of them right now
20131223 15:28:56< mattsc> boucman_work, happygrue, zookeeper: this is what I have right now.  The attack rating calculation starts in line 30.  Very simple-minded maximum-damage rating (intentionally).  http://pastebin.com/zi9BMN9J
20131223 15:29:04< happygrue> so maybe I misunderstood
20131223 15:29:32< mattsc> If we want to change it to allowing a small chance to die, we simply change l.30 from '== 0' to '<= 0.05' or something.
20131223 15:30:00< zookeeper> better start with no chance to die, and see if it works out ok with that
20131223 15:30:09< happygrue> I agree
20131223 15:30:11< mattsc> zookeeper: agreed
20131223 15:30:27< mattsc> ... and that's how it is at the moment
20131223 15:31:38< boucman_work> I'd go the other way round... start at 0.05 and see if people complain
20131223 15:31:51< boucman_work> (though the more I think of it, the more I think 0 is the only valid choice)
20131223 15:32:35< boucman_work> I'm afraid it makes the whole scenario a bit simple... never attack if you have a ctk, which is very easy to find out from the UI
20131223 15:32:59< zookeeper> it'd be ok if i also had to look out for AI units which could get themselves killed, except for the fact that there's no practical way to dothat
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20131223 15:33:37< mattsc> I have to be offline for half an hour.  Will check the logs when I'm back.
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20131223 15:33:42< zookeeper> i'd have to do all sorts of awkward math to figure that out, which is why i don't want anyone to have to do so in order to not "lose" because of the AI getting back luck
20131223 15:34:34< boucman_work> zookeeper: that's a good point too
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20131223 15:35:23< happygrue> fabi__: how about changing "game type" toggle button above the list of available maps to have "scenario" mean the WML or special rules maps, IE Dark Forcast, Auction X, maybe the others that are large I need to double check if any others have actuall WML (the volcano one?)
20131223 15:35:40< happygrue> and then the regular maps could go in "standard maps" (the default setting of the list)
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20131223 15:38:17< happygrue> then any UMC would also go in "scenarios"
20131223 15:38:51< happygrue> as we would just have to assume that stuff that is downloaded is going to have WML in it, or that the user knows something about what they are doing
20131223 15:43:49< fendrin> hmmm
20131223 15:45:34< fendrin> happygrue: Give me some minutes to sort my thoughts and make some tea. I guess this needs some deeper thoughts.
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20131223 16:01:41< mattsc> zookeeper: btw, you mentioned yesterday that maybe if the scenario ends on a player unit being killed it should not die.  I think it should.
20131223 16:08:56< happygrue> fendrin: as I understand it, there are two main problems, one being that it is a bit awkward to sort through a long list of maps with the standard MP maps mixed in with the UMC WML scenarios, the other is that new users might not even know that and so they start to play some map as a duel without realizing the difference that the map settings will make (I have personally seen things like this happen)
20131223 16:10:09< happygrue> I think changing the tabs to standard maps and "scenarios" or maybe "custom scenarios" would help make that more clear for new users and also be easier to sort through for expernienced users who might have downloaded a bunch of UMC
20131223 16:11:23< happygrue> then improving and updating the map descriptions would also help
20131223 16:12:20< fendrin> happygrue: There are currently 4) different sources the create mp engine can handle:
20131223 16:13:24< fendrin> 1) Pure map files. Containing only terrain and starting positions. This mechanism is used to play user created maps, saved into the editor's map directory.
20131223 16:14:33< fendrin> 2) [multiplayer] or [scenario] with multiplayer=yes, taken from the whole wml tree. These contain the mainline scenarios and the installed addons.
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20131223 16:17:26< fendrin> 3) Scenario files created by the editor. This is new. Again, a subdirectory of editor is scanned for files, but those are processed by the wml parser. The files are no real scenario files, they lack the surrounding [scenario] or [multiplayer]. I have chosen this way to give UMC designers the possibility to include them in already existing scenario files easily.  
20131223 16:17:39< AI0867> it looks like the commandline arguments haven't been updated since .wesnoth$version was split into .local/share/wesnoth/$version/ and .config/wesnoth
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20131223 16:18:31< AI0867> that is, there's --data-dir for the mainline data, --config-dir for userdata (.local), but nothing for actual config (.config)
20131223 16:18:38< fendrin> 4) MP Campaigns (or single scenarios). These are guarded by #ifdef CAMPAIGNNAME and reparsed the moment the player starts them.
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20131223 16:21:05< fendrin> happygrue: I guess 1) is just too limited to be of much use. Just the map and the starting positions, will fit only the simplest of our mp scenarios. 
20131223 16:22:54< happygrue> so I guess it is a bit invloved trying to split them up as I suggested - how about just ordering how they are listed with a spacer or something?  So that the standard maps are first, then some space and then the mainline WML scenarios followed by UMC after that?
20131223 16:23:13< happygrue> Or maybe this is too complicated to fix just now and we think about it more for next version
20131223 16:24:26< fendrin> happygrue: Maybe the easiest solution is another attribute in [multiplayer]. scenario_type=category
20131223 16:24:27< happygrue> or could we put all the standard maps a different color and note that?  So things that have no special rules could be highlighted somehow?
20131223 16:25:31< fendrin> This might be possible. Most likely pango markup works for the scenario descriptions.
20131223 16:25:37< happygrue> that sounds promising
20131223 16:26:07< happygrue> there is limited time, so being easy is tempting.
20131223 16:26:37< happygrue> it's also a relatively minor thing I guess... so yes it would be nice but it has been this way for years... one more release is not going to be too bad
20131223 16:27:08< happygrue> but as the amount of MP content grows it does get more irksome
20131223 16:27:09< fendrin> If I understood correctly we want to distinguish between scenarios that use the standard gameplay mechanics and victory conditions and scenarios which use more advanced wml coding to distinguish between them.
20131223 16:27:15< happygrue> yes
20131223 16:27:53< happygrue> I think I would place anything that is not "team 1 vs team 2, fight to the death" as a custom scenario
20131223 16:28:04< fendrin> yes
20131223 16:28:15< happygrue> IE, acution X has a bidding mechanic, you need to really read what is going on and know how it works to "do it right"
20131223 16:28:23< happygrue> even though I don't think it has any WML
20131223 16:28:35< happygrue> Dark Focast is a survival
20131223 16:29:00< happygrue> the Volvano map used to have an exploding option that changes terrian but is otherwise standard
20131223 16:30:06< happygrue> and then anything user made.  There is a group of ladder players who redo the mainline maps and package them as an addon - it is annoying that the maps have almost the same name and get included in the same big list if you download that
20131223 16:30:45< happygrue> having all UMC stuff seperated would be ideal, and I would lump the three I mentioned above on that side as well (unless the volcano has been turned off)
20131223 16:31:08< fendrin> Well, the situation is the same with single player scenarios.
20131223 16:31:30< fendrin> It would make sense to have the mainline and addon campaigns in different lists there as well.
20131223 16:32:06< fendrin> And maybe also different lists for addon which follow the standard gameplay more or less and homegrown game machanics.
20131223 16:32:19< happygrue> probably, yes though the numbers are much fewer at the moment so the issue isn't as problematic
20131223 16:32:40< happygrue> also true, in a an ideal situation
20131223 16:33:07< happygrue> but we also don't want to get lost in menu options that have 2-3 things each under them IMO
20131223 16:33:17< happygrue> so what is "best" is open to debate I guess
20131223 16:35:02< fendrin> Yeah, GUI design is always a balance act between too much complexity and offering to few options.
20131223 16:37:03< happygrue> my gut feeling is that if we can easily break "standard maps" and "everything else that is not a campaign" off into another area, that is worth doing, but anything else might be worth doing at a slower pace.
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20131223 16:40:51< fendrin> happygrue: Okay, let's try to give the "standard maps" a different color. And think about other solutions for the next release.
20131223 16:48:24< happygrue> that sounds good to me.
20131223 17:00:15< fendrin> happygrue: I had no luck so far. The name= attribute does not seem to handle pango.
20131223 17:00:37< fendrin> happygrue: But I swear that I had already seen a colored scenario.
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20131223 17:23:28< AI0867> fendrin: so add 'ctrl+o' as an additional default hotkey for the titlescreen?
20131223 17:23:41< lipkab> wesbot: seen Ayne?
20131223 17:23:41< wesbot> lipkab: Sorry, I don't know of Ayne.
20131223 17:24:04< lipkab> Eek.
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20131223 17:29:47< fendrin> AI0867: Or it moves into General
20131223 17:30:22< fendrin> AI0867: But that means that the ctrl+o in the editor to load map files has to change.
20131223 17:30:49< fendrin> AI0867: All solutions seem to have their disadvantages.
20131223 17:32:39< fendrin> The additional hotkey for the titlescreen means they can go out of sync.
20131223 17:39:10< zookeeper> mattsc, any particular reason why?
20131223 17:40:07< zookeeper> i guess that if it doesn't die, then you'd be safe to take very unusual risks near the end
20131223 17:40:37< mattsc> zookeeper: it adds a strategic decision to be made for the player in some situations.  Do I end the scenario this turn with a safe kill and take into account getting less gold, or do I take the risk of losing an important unit for more gold.
20131223 17:40:43< mattsc> exactly
20131223 17:41:19< zookeeper> ok, i'm convinced :p
20131223 17:41:28< mattsc> That was easy.  :)
20131223 17:42:19< AI0867> fendrin: the general one makes the most sense to me at first, but there's some issues. I don't know enough about the implementation to say whether this will affect names and such, but another issue is that someone might want to assign 'l' to load on the titlescreen, but not ingame or in the editor
20131223 17:43:24< AI0867> another (not very desirable) option would be to have a general one *and* the editor, game and titlescreen ones
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20131223 17:51:29< fendrin> AI0867: What do you mean with "affect names"?
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20131223 17:51:59< AI0867> of menu items that the hotkeys are attached to
20131223 17:53:47< fendrin> It was possible to have the ctrl+o bound to the same hotkey which was named differently in the scopes.
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20131223 17:54:36< fendrin> But I think it was changed for the WML defined hotkey actions.
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20131223 18:02:31< irker049> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master 713a183805be / src/controller_base.cpp: avoid a compile error http://git.io/JBmYPA
20131223 18:02:33< irker049> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master d4401e5777fd / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vc project update http://git.io/7gvEZg
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20131223 18:31:12< AI0867> cmake has an option that is misdescribed: "Use a non-default preferences directory (.wesnoth on unix)"
20131223 18:31:18< AI0867> scons does not have that option
20131223 18:31:34< AI0867> anyone mind if I get rid of it?
20131223 18:32:23< AI0867> oh, scons does have it, just located in a different place
20131223 18:33:39< AI0867> the option is not only misdescribed, it is now also misnamed if _X11 is defined
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20131223 18:42:08< happygrue> shadowm: compiling with your codeblocks walkthrough right now... I don't want to jinx it but it was quite easy.
20131223 18:42:13 * happygrue runs to find some wood to knock on
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20131223 18:53:32< happygrue> Hmmm, I am new to git/github, how do I authenticate myself to make a commit?
20131223 18:54:42< happygrue> I am logged in as happygrue, I have a checkout, I can sync, but it doesn't allow me to commit and suggests that debug my repo
20131223 18:55:55< lipkab> happygrue: Do you have commit access for starters?
20131223 18:56:13< happygrue> I did before the move, as wintermute
20131223 18:56:21< happygrue> and I see myself in the project
20131223 18:56:39< happygrue> but my sourceforge id was happygrue, so my older changes it said "happygrue" made
20131223 18:58:19< lipkab> happygrue: Being present in the git history and having access on GitHub are different things.
20131223 18:58:44< lipkab> You're not here so I assume you don't have the rights. https://github.com/wesnoth?tab=members
20131223 18:58:46< happygrue> That seems like the likely problem then
20131223 18:58:57< lipkab> Poke AI0867 to fix that.
20131223 18:59:20< happygrue> ^
20131223 18:59:32< happygrue> thanks
20131223 18:59:53< lipkab> No problem.
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20131223 21:10:12< Turuk> fendrin: is there a way to turn the semantic map off from being the default?
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20131223 21:52:09< shadowm> happygrue: It's not _my_ walkthrough, strictly speaking. All I did was to rewrite the previous one so it didn't require too much effort to parse it into valid English. :p But I'm glad it worked for you!
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20131223 21:54:53< shadowm> happygrue: You are now added to the team on GitHub.
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20131223 21:57:22< happygrue> ah, thanks
20131223 21:57:28< happygrue> and yeah, it worked like a charm
20131223 21:58:35< happygrue> I some minor edits to the walkthrough, and I had one other question:  it is written using "/" in the pathnames but windows uses "\", however it doesn't matter how you put them in because it changes them all to use normal windows defaults
20131223 21:58:57< happygrue> the walkthrough is obviously more for a linux style shell, but I guess it's not even worth mentioning?
20131223 22:00:06< shadowm> People working on Wesnoth tend to be conditioned to parse \ and / as the same in paths.
20131223 22:00:45< happygrue> yeah, it seems fine to just leave it as is
20131223 22:00:46< shadowm> And while some Windows applications may complain, the underlying APIs accept both as synonymous for compatibility with applications written for a Unix environment for hisotircal reasons.
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20131223 22:02:02< shadowm> For example, if you enter C:/Windows in the Run dialog or enter "cd c:/windows" in the command prompt, you will get c:\windows as intended.
20131223 22:03:04< shadowm> Of course I didn't even notice I was using forward slashes because I spend 99% of my time on Linux.
20131223 22:03:28< happygrue> that was my assumption, but since as you say it fixes it for you either way it doesn't seem worth mentioning
20131223 22:03:38< happygrue> overall the walkthrough was great, painless even
20131223 22:03:48< happygrue> and I hadn't compiled anything in many years
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20131223 22:04:32< irker437> wesnoth: happygrue wesnoth-old:master 95fa91e0c2e6 / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/README.txt: Updated CodeBlocks walkthrough with user input. http://git.io/9P0RMA
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20131223 22:06:56< happygrue> shadowm: ^ you can change anything back if you don't like the note, I'm not sure it's needed by I was ammending the walkthrough as I went along and wanted to do a minor test commit anyway to make sure that everything is working
20131223 22:08:11< fendrin> Turuk: no
20131223 22:08:16< shadowm> Yeah, well, I spotted a typo ("complier") and the file is intended to be line-wrapped to 80 columns except where that's not feasible (URIs and file paths).
20131223 22:08:37< Turuk> fendrin: The colors seem sort of glaring compared to the normal map view
20131223 22:09:55< happygrue> heh, edited a typo, created a new typo.  That's about how I work.  ;)
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20131223 22:18:12< happygrue> does anyone know where the credits are stored offhand?
20131223 22:18:36< bumbadadabum> credits?
20131223 22:18:41< bumbadadabum> like about.cfg?
20131223 22:19:37< zookeeper> data/core/about.cfg
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20131223 22:20:47< happygrue> thanks
20131223 22:25:53< happygrue> Interesting, I am no longer there
20131223 22:26:09< happygrue> I must have gotten the axe along with the khalifate back in the day.
20131223 22:26:13< happygrue> good times!
20131223 22:27:38< shadowm> You were never there, at least not as happygrue or wintermute.
20131223 22:27:51< happygrue> at one time in the past I was indeed
20131223 22:28:06< happygrue> I don't know how long ago that was, but several years ago anyway
20131223 22:28:17< shadowm> I searched the entire diff history of data/core/about.cfg.
20131223 22:28:33< happygrue> Wintermute?
20131223 22:28:47< happygrue> George B was probably the name I had
20131223 22:29:01< happygrue> or perhaps I don't remember correctly, ah well
20131223 22:29:02< shadowm> Not found either.
20131223 22:29:42< Turuk> happygrue: you can live in the world of unknown with me
20131223 22:29:49< happygrue> I shall add us both!
20131223 22:30:14< shadowm> (Searching text with git log -p is my pastime, it seems. Not recommended unless you have a large amount of RAM.)
20131223 22:30:20< happygrue> Turuk: where do want to live?
20131223 22:30:26< happygrue> I do not
20131223 22:30:39< Turuk> Haha wherever really, it's never been a burning need
20131223 22:34:51< happygrue> okay, kinda busy at the moment but I'll look tonight
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20131223 22:37:18< happygrue> shadowm: I am really curious about this, I show up here:  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Credits
20131223 22:37:20< happygrue> as wintermute
20131223 22:37:30< happygrue> wouldn't that imply that I was in about.cfg at some point?
20131223 22:37:37< bumbadadabum> it does
20131223 22:37:45< happygrue> I feel like around 1.6 I was there, because I have a memory about being excited about it
20131223 22:37:47< happygrue> maybe 1.4
20131223 22:37:48< shadowm> happygrue: You show up in campaign credits.
20131223 22:38:11< shadowm> Those are provided by the _main.cfg files in data/campaigns/* and are not guaranteed to be loaded or exist in the first place.
20131223 22:38:23< Ivanovic> happygrue: if you appear on the credits page then you are in some credits block somewhere in mainline
20131223 22:38:25< happygrue> ah, that's right, I never actually went into the MP credits
20131223 22:38:33< Ivanovic> happygrue: the website is directly based on the WML files
20131223 22:38:46< happygrue> I see
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20131223 22:38:58< happygrue> well this a blocker for sure ;)
20131223 22:39:00< Ivanovic> happygrue: and you are shown in the TSG specific part, so you have to be in its about block
20131223 22:39:03< shadowm> The page there happens to be built using the credits from data/campaigns/* at the end, but as I said, that' snot guaranteed.
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20131223 22:39:34< shadowm> For example, Debian users may install the core game only, without the campaigns.
20131223 22:39:40< happygrue> yeah, I originally was working on TSG but ended up mostly just making the MP balance edits
20131223 22:39:57< Ivanovic> happygrue: and i tend to rebuild the credits page with every dev release, so that is the status you tend to see online
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20131223 22:40:53< irker437> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master c6f63318270e / src/game_preferences_display.cpp: preferences: Prevent ghost widgets glitch in Advanced by hiding all first http://git.io/KoZy_w
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20131223 22:42:27< happygrue> I see
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20131223 22:57:21< Turuk> fendrin: Did you see my note on the slider in the text box?
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20131223 23:22:52< happygrue> okay Turuk, you are a now a Misc. contributer, do you want your name or just "Turuk"?
20131223 23:23:03< Turuk> Justin DiSabatino is my name
20131223 23:23:08< Turuk> But Turuk works as well
20131223 23:23:20< Turuk> Woohoo Misc.!
20131223 23:23:25< happygrue> Most people put: Real Name (nick)
20131223 23:23:32< happygrue> but you can use just nick if you prefer
20131223 23:23:34< Turuk> That works for me then
20131223 23:23:36< happygrue> okay
20131223 23:23:38< Turuk> Nah, I want people to be able to find me :P
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20131223 23:29:34< irker437> wesnoth: happygrue wesnoth-old:master b38b51e5dcba / data/core/about.cfg: Updated info for happygrue, jb, Turuk http://git.io/QZVfwA
20131223 23:38:03< irker437> wesnoth: happygrue wesnoth-old:master e96f43078062 / projectfiles/CodeBlocks/README.txt: Fixed a typo. http://git.io/7nzPtw
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 24 00:00:25 2013