--- Log opened Thu Dec 26 00:00:04 2013
20131226 00:01:13< Coffee_irc> shadowm: I didn't change anything with hotkeys for https://gna.org/bugs/?20709
20131226 00:01:42< Coffee_irc> all I did recently was the middle click srolling and fix a couple of bugs
20131226 00:01:46< Coffee_irc> *scrolling
20131226 00:02:13< shadowm> Coffee_irc: Did you read the IRC login its entirety?
20131226 00:02:16< shadowm> log
20131226 00:02:16< Coffee_irc> that GUI stuff is fendrin's area
20131226 00:02:19< shadowm> in its
20131226 00:02:28< Coffee_irc> I thought so?
20131226 00:02:39< shadowm> Coffee_irc: Then you should've realized that I already know you have nothing to do with it.
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20131226 00:03:24< shadowm> At 20131225 01:19:51.
20131226 00:04:01< Coffee_irc> shadowm: around that time I was in bed waiting for santa :D
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20131226 00:04:44< shadowm> That's not a valid excuse because you weren't around at the time the bug was brought up either.
20131226 00:05:21< Coffee_irc> yeah, my Internet connection has become a little flaky in the last couple of days
20131226 00:05:25< shadowm> Which was only about seven minutes earlier.
20131226 00:05:50< shadowm> In other words, you need to take IRC log reading 101 again.
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20131226 00:17:06< Coffee_irc> is bug https://gna.org/bugs/?21364 up for grabs? Same as http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=564624&sid=ae20b33ad4634e9fc6fc94492aa40f7d#p564624
20131226 00:17:24< Coffee_irc> issue with the scrollbar and textarea widget
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20131226 01:32:07< fendrin> bumbadadabum: Thank you :-)
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20131226 01:45:45< irker596> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 1f94869fd77a / changelog src/widgets/textbox.cpp: Fix bug with scrollbar overlaying text in GUI textbox (fixes bug #21364) http://git.io/fGwLuA
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20131226 02:01:44< Turuk> wesbot: seen zookeeper
20131226 02:01:44< wesbot> Turuk: The person with the nick zookeeper last spoke 3h 30m ago.  1h 20m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
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20131226 02:13:48< fendrin> hi Turuk
20131226 02:14:39< Turuk> hi fendrin
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20131226 03:34:11< irker596> wesnoth: David Mikos wesnoth-old:master 5cf466942a89 / src/widgets/ (textbox.cpp textbox.hpp): Override updates for window resizing and scrollbar changes for textbox text best http://git.io/Zmrrnw
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20131226 05:49:10< fendrin_> Anyone interested in the export selected field's coordinate to the clipboard feature? 
20131226 05:49:30< fendrin_> If not I could just remove it.
20131226 05:50:00< fendrin_> Is it better to start the editor in map or in scenario mode?
20131226 05:52:49< shadowm> 02:49:10 <fendrin_> Anyone interested in the export selected field's coordinate to the clipboard feature?
20131226 05:52:56< shadowm> Yes, very much.
20131226 05:53:11< fendrin_> You use it?
20131226 05:53:18< shadowm> I _used_ it a lot.
20131226 05:56:23< fendrin_> Well, I see its usefulness (Ilor implemented it after a feature request of mine). Still I wonder if the new area feature isn't a full and better replacement.
20131226 05:57:04< shadowm> It's an alternative, not a replacement.
20131226 05:57:55< fendrin_> Well, why should anyone still use it?
20131226 05:58:27< shadowm> Because defining areas for every little thing doesn't always make sense?
20131226 05:59:04< fendrin_> Why not`
20131226 05:59:07< fendrin_> ?
20131226 05:59:48< fendrin_> Single hex fields are as fine areas as multi hex field ones.
20131226 06:00:30< shadowm> I'm not interested in an argument at this particular time and there's no reason to remove it.
20131226 06:02:05< fendrin_> Well, the reason to remove it is that KISS paradigm. "It is perfect when there is nothing more there that can be removed." Or similar.
20131226 06:02:41< shadowm> If you think that's a valid reason to remove it, then start with removing everything you've added these last few months. :/
20131226 06:04:17< fendrin_> :-)
20131226 06:04:20< shadowm> Or add SLF support to [terrain_graphics].
20131226 06:04:52< shadowm> (Not.)
20131226 06:06:56< fendrin_> It takes no absolute x,y positions but only relative ones. Does the clipboard feature help there?
20131226 06:07:11< shadowm> You are mistaken.
20131226 06:08:03< fendrin_> pos?
20131226 06:08:45< shadowm> I have several instances here of scenario-local builder rules bound to strict coordinates, with or without a condition.
20131226 06:09:16< fendrin_> Seems that is a clear case of using something in a way it was never designed for.
20131226 06:09:21< shadowm> It is not.
20131226 06:09:33< fendrin_> How do you tell the terrain_graphics that your coordinations are not relative?
20131226 06:09:50< shadowm> By passing the coordinates.
20131226 06:10:13< shadowm> Line 10 in http://pastebin.com/Dv3Sf6QD .
20131226 06:10:40< fendrin_> Ah okay,
20131226 06:10:47< fendrin_> the wiki is not up to date then.
20131226 06:13:25< shadowm> I may choose to not use areas in several other situations*, especially if I only need a coordinate set once, to avoid clogging up the WML. We've generally encouraged people to use whatever solution fits their use case best in WML, so why trim an innocuous feature on grounds of an argument based on a misapplied principle?
20131226 06:13:33< shadowm> (* And obviously have done so all this time.)
20131226 06:15:27< shadowm> What if _I_ want to define my own area based on a coordinate set without using editor-generated WML?
20131226 06:16:25< fendrin_> You can't. 
20131226 06:16:44< shadowm> What? No, I totally can.
20131226 06:18:22< fendrin_> Ah, you mean taking the clipboard output to handwrite a [time_area]?
20131226 06:18:37< shadowm> Yes.
20131226 06:20:46< fendrin_> Okay, I have asked to get more arguments to keep the feature (which was my preferred solution anyway) and so it will happen.
20131226 06:21:11< fendrin_> I could wait for more voices but I think your word is enough.
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20131226 06:24:19< fendrin_> shadowm: Support for SLF in [terrain_graphics] is not easy, they are processed and setup up before the rest of the engine is ready. But support for [terrain_graphics] inside the editor is on my list since I talked with Inferno8 about what would help him to produce more maps like he did for his tLU campaign.
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20131226 06:27:21< shadowm> I think that's a bad idea. The current design promotes WML elitism, which is the sole raison d'être of the UMC Pioneers group in the forums. </notsureifserious>
20131226 06:28:10< fendrin_> :-)
20131226 06:28:45< shadowm> The editor would work best as an entry-level tool for newbies. If you broaden the scope of a software product too much, you risk hurting overall quality (esp. with regards to usability and maintainability).
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20131226 06:29:57< fendrin_> shadowm: Well, the editor was never an entry level tool for newbies. It was more or less easy to produce maps and also easy to miss important features. But it was never easy to put them into something useful.
20131226 06:30:59< fendrin_> Thus I hope my new version which can be used to define simple but out of the box working scenarios is a good middle way.
20131226 06:31:04< shadowm> I don't remember finding it that hard back in the day. Then again, I didn't know of the editor's existence for a while.
20131226 06:31:53< fendrin_> Is there any new feature which is very hard to get?
20131226 06:33:18< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: when you are new to developing UMC (from memory) the main problem is knowing where the resources are
20131226 06:33:39< Coffee_irc> like the wiki and reference WML pages
20131226 06:33:45< fendrin_> So far feedback from the users was mostly positive although the thing was not really finished.
20131226 06:33:48< shadowm> I haven't used the 1.11.x to create maps yet, and either way...
20131226 06:34:17< shadowm> ... I'm a KDE user. That means I'm conditioned to find everything usable, no matter how broken it is.
20131226 06:34:24< fendrin_> :-)
20131226 06:34:39< Coffee_irc> klol, I kfeel kfor kyou
20131226 06:34:42< fendrin_> Yeah, I use kde since 1.0 beta, back in 1999 iirc.
20131226 06:35:33< fendrin_> KDE is just the best. Linus Thorvalds is so right when calling the gnome people interface nazis.
20131226 06:36:01< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: :-)
20131226 06:36:04< shadowm> I think Torvalds uses Xfce now.
20131226 06:36:23< fendrin_> Well, he never claimed to prefer KDE.
20131226 06:36:55< Coffee_irc> gnome 2 was the best (I am still on it now)
20131226 06:37:15< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: Are you using Emacs or vi?
20131226 06:37:18< shadowm> My experience with the Gtk 2 and Gtk 3 world isn't devoid of frustration and disappointment. (God those file dialogs...)
20131226 06:37:43< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: lol,if I have to use one of them I use vi
20131226 06:37:50< fendrin_> shame on you
20131226 06:38:26< Coffee_irc> nano is more useful IMO as a commandline text editor
20131226 06:38:51< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: Well, there is a good reason to use emacs for WML coding. It has the most advanced wml plugin/mode of all editors.
20131226 06:39:01< Coffee_irc> gnome3/kde4/unity are good examples of what can go wrong with major changes to an open source project
20131226 06:39:05< shadowm> I really prefer vim because it's much easier on a slow SSH link. Otherwise I use Kate.
20131226 06:39:31< fendrin_> emacs -nw (no window) is fine on slow ssh.
20131226 06:40:14< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: eh, gedit/kate are fine for editing WML
20131226 06:40:16< shadowm> I mean re vim vs. nano.
20131226 06:40:38< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: No.
20131226 06:40:46< fendrin_> Not really.
20131226 06:41:02< Coffee_irc> shadowm: vi is more useful only for editing massive text output files
20131226 06:41:09< fendrin_> People who claim that have never seen the emacs wml mode in action.
20131226 06:41:35< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: that's under the solitaire mode option right ;)
20131226 06:41:53< shadowm> Yeah, no, I've never felt inclined to use emacs on X11, and vim works just fine for me on a text terminal.
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20131226 06:44:10< fendrin_> Okay, so the clipboard feature will stay.
20131226 06:44:37< fendrin_> The second question was about starting the editor not with an empty "pure map" but with an empty "scenario".
20131226 06:46:44< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: hope you don't mind me asking if you are not recreating the wheel here
20131226 06:47:02< Coffee_irc> is this actually going to be useful for UMC authors?
20131226 06:47:22< Coffee_irc> I mean will you be able to edit other people's scenarios as well?
20131226 06:47:49< Coffee_irc> or is it going to be specialized and a person have to 'relearn' how to position units and such for more complex scenarios?
20131226 06:48:17< fendrin_> Hmmm
20131226 06:48:32< fendrin_> Sorry, I still don't get what your concerns are.
20131226 06:48:55< Coffee_irc> this is for the new unit placement and other features, right?
20131226 06:48:59< fendrin_> yes
20131226 06:49:09< Coffee_irc> so you can set time of day and such?
20131226 06:49:36< fendrin_> village ownership, unit placement, areas with or without local time, schedule, playlist, labels, items
20131226 06:49:40< Coffee_irc> well, will it be standardized so that all scenarios can be edited in such a manner?
20131226 06:49:46< fendrin_> soundsources
20131226 06:50:04< Coffee_irc> if it was standardized and it worked to edit all scenarios it would be very useful
20131226 06:50:23< fendrin_> standardized?
20131226 06:50:26< Coffee_irc> if to create a more advanced scenario you have to discard this feature it would not be too useful IMO
20131226 06:51:42< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: if the idea would be you could just download somebody's addon and edit the time of day and initial unit placement, etc it would be useful
20131226 06:51:50< fendrin_> This question is not easy to answer but good that you ask it.
20131226 06:52:50< fendrin_> Say you create a scenario for your campaign with all the new editor features.
20131226 06:53:28< fendrin_> This means you write your events into a scenario file, just how you are used to it.
20131226 06:54:01< fendrin_> The file the editor outputs should not be edited by hand is included into it.
20131226 06:54:55< fendrin_> The file, the editor outputs (which should not be edited by hand), is included into it.
20131226 06:55:20< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: may I ake a suggestion then?
20131226 06:55:25< fendrin_> sure
20131226 06:55:31< Coffee_irc> to give it a different file extension by default
20131226 06:55:46< fendrin_> I would like to.
20131226 06:56:07< fendrin_> But our file browser/chooser dialog is not up to it.
20131226 06:56:14< fendrin_> And I do not want to mess with it,.
20131226 06:56:18< fendrin_> At least not now.
20131226 06:56:26< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: well, I am in a bug fixing mood :)
20131226 06:56:52< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: I can feed you with hundreds of bugs that are more important to fix :-)
20131226 06:57:27< Coffee_irc> lol
20131226 06:57:39< fendrin_> At this time.
20131226 06:57:46< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: this seems pretty important if it is a new feature for the next upcoming version
20131226 06:58:05< Coffee_irc> to me anyway (even though I don't really know too much or have invested much time on it)
20131226 06:58:27< fendrin_> The file ending?
20131226 06:58:47< Coffee_irc> this is the kind of thing that most new players would encounter at some point
20131226 06:58:54< fendrin_> Well, we use to name map files .map and mask files .mask but the editor did not enforce that either.
20131226 06:58:58< Coffee_irc> being able to create or edit a scenario
20131226 06:59:20< Coffee_irc> once they get good enough and like the game enough, everyone seems to have at least a go at it
20131226 06:59:33< Coffee_irc> which is a nice point about this game
20131226 07:00:10< fendrin_> Well, making it eat handwritten scenarios is not a big deal. 
20131226 07:00:21< fendrin_> But the output will be ...
20131226 07:00:32< Coffee_irc> just throwing my observations out there
20131226 07:01:09< Coffee_irc> most people probably will give up quickly and do something else, but they will probably try once
20131226 07:01:35< fendrin_> I guess sooner or later most UMC Authors will use the new scenario mode.
20131226 07:01:49< fendrin_> It just offers too many benefits to neglect it.
20131226 07:01:59< fendrin_> It can be used to that degree you want it.
20131226 07:02:37< fendrin_> I mean, if you do not want to loose the control over your side definitions, you can still use every feature which does not require sides defined.
20131226 07:03:18< fendrin_> Thus I guess the new editor will be used by newbies to modify UMCs easily and might get hooked to do more advanced stuff.
20131226 07:03:51< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: well, that would depend on whether or not it would work to modify existing UMCs
20131226 07:04:25< fendrin_> why?
20131226 07:04:56< Coffee_irc> well, I am just throwing around things for you to consider
20131226 07:05:04< fendrin_> sure
20131226 07:05:42< Coffee_irc> I like the idea, but am not really sold on it myself if it can't integrate into what features are possible
20131226 07:06:43< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: I can't support macros.
20131226 07:06:49< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: I can read macros.
20131226 07:07:00< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: But I can't write them.
20131226 07:07:20< fendrin_> So you use all macros in a scenario and have the expanded wml code instead.
20131226 07:07:45< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: just seems to me like it would be immensely more useful if it were a separate file and you could make small changes by hand
20131226 07:07:59< fendrin_> s/use/lose
20131226 07:08:04< Coffee_irc> so that it preserves all "unknown" wml or macros
20131226 07:08:15< Coffee_irc> like within a side definition
20131226 07:08:58< fendrin_> Do you have an idea how this could be implemented?
20131226 07:09:37< Coffee_irc> you still would have the full range of possibilities avaiable if you just preserved all unknown to the editor code within WML tags
20131226 07:09:47< Coffee_irc> *available
20131226 07:10:56< fendrin_> hmmm
20131226 07:13:22< Coffee_irc> maybe you already do it that way I don't know
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20131226 07:14:19< fendrin_> No, I do not support to open a scenario.
20131226 07:14:25< fendrin_> At least not in scenario mode.
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20131226 07:14:52< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: just seems to me to be lacking a little bit for it to actually get used much
20131226 07:14:58< fendrin_> You can only open a scenario if it uses an embedded map. And there you can only modify the map.
20131226 07:15:16< fendrin_> This is a problem with many new features.
20131226 07:15:24< fendrin_> Especially if they come from gsoc.
20131226 07:15:48< fendrin_> The backend is fine but they are not very usable by the UMC author or the player.
20131226 07:18:09< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: I am serious that it might help a lot with little things like file extensions
20131226 07:19:17< fendrin_> Agreed.
20131226 07:19:50< Coffee_irc> I don't mind looking at seeing if we can get that into the file save dialog
20131226 07:22:47< Coffee_irc> IMO all that is really needed IMO is to prefill the save name and set the cursor focus and highlight the part of the text before the extension
20131226 07:23:13< Coffee_irc> so it would say something like "untitled.scenario" or "untitled.map"
20131226 07:23:24< Coffee_irc> and you type over the untitled part
20131226 07:24:22< fendrin_> What kind of extension would you suggest for a editor created scenario?
20131226 07:24:41< Coffee_irc> well, I don't really know
20131226 07:24:47< Coffee_irc> I thought you might know :P
20131226 07:25:03< fendrin_> Well, technically .cfg is right.
20131226 07:25:39< fendrin_> But since you can't load every .cfg file into the editor it might not be the best choice.
20131226 07:25:48< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: to me that would imply it could be edited just like other .cfg files
20131226 07:25:48< Coffee_irc> but, really it can't without the editor not being able to read it
20131226 07:26:12< Coffee_irc> how about .scn?
20131226 07:26:14< fendrin_> Reading is not a problem.
20131226 07:26:21< fendrin_> Writing is.
20131226 07:27:42< fendrin_> Be aware that you are the only developer to think it is a good idea to mix manual and generated stuff into one single file.
20131226 07:27:55< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: lol
20131226 07:28:01< Coffee_irc> this may be the case
20131226 07:28:09< Coffee_irc> I am only stating one person's opinion here
20131226 07:28:33< Coffee_irc> making it a different file extension would discourage editing though
20131226 07:29:06< fendrin_> It is okay to edit the file.
20131226 07:29:38< fendrin_> I mean replacing some attribute value is no problem.
20131226 07:29:43< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: is the idea that you could potentially open the campaign file again after closing it?
20131226 07:30:33< Coffee_irc> you are not talking about some template that then gets edited and never to be opened by the editor again are you?
20131226 07:30:58< fendrin_> no
20131226 07:31:22< Coffee_irc> just want to make sure I have the idea right
20131226 07:31:38< Coffee_irc> so you would add this file into a main file as a macro of sorts
20131226 07:31:54< Coffee_irc> and inherit all the initial items and units, time of day, etc.
20131226 07:32:13< Coffee_irc> and anyone could then edit that information with the editor at some later date
20131226 07:33:08< Coffee_irc> so that IMO makes this a special file, different from the .map files and .cfg files
20131226 07:34:25< fendrin_> yes
20131226 07:34:42< fendrin_> That is why your proposal with the file extensions makes a lot of sense.
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20131226 07:35:19< Coffee_irc> so you think my implementation would work for the save box GUI?
20131226 07:35:36< Coffee_irc> it would be simple I think to implement
20131226 07:36:39< fendrin_> Well, maybe.
20131226 07:36:58< fendrin_> All the filename handling in the backend would be different, wouldn't it?
20131226 07:37:13< fendrin_> I do not say that it is not worth to give it a try.
20131226 07:37:21< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: to be honest I don't know :)
20131226 07:37:24< fendrin_> Not just right now.
20131226 07:37:36< Coffee_irc> I can do it and give you a patch
20131226 07:38:20< fendrin_> Well, if you give me a patch that handles the backend stuff as well, I can consider to use it before 1.13
20131226 07:38:22< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: I would think that the file handling would be the same
20131226 07:38:48< Coffee_irc> it would just prepopulate the save box with some text with "untitled.extension"
20131226 07:39:03< Coffee_irc> quite basic really
20131226 07:39:20< Coffee_irc> no point in overcomplicating it with GUI boxes and such
20131226 07:40:25< fendrin_> okay, give it a try
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20131226 08:39:19< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: http://pastebin.com/n4AxEMeL
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20131226 08:47:42< Coffee_irc> damn my Internet connection is flaky
20131226 08:53:37< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: I suspect I could code up another patch as well that highlights the part of the filename before the '.' so you can quickly type over it
20131226 08:55:27< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: cool
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20131226 08:55:32< fendrin_> Coffee_irc: Please do so.
20131226 08:55:37< fendrin_> Okay
20131226 08:55:39< fendrin_> missed you
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20131226 09:36:37< zookeeper> Turuk, yes?
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20131226 10:41:49< Coffee_irc> fendrin_: that other patch will probably come tomorrow for the save game dialog
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20131226 13:02:32< Turuk> zookeeper: Was anything decided from that thread about Li'Sar?
20131226 13:02:40< zookeeper> nope
20131226 13:03:03< Turuk> Are you interested in gaining a consensus for change or just letting it go?
20131226 13:04:21< zookeeper> i doubt we're going to reach any kind of a universal consensus on it, but sure, i'd very much like to address the issue in some nice way
20131226 13:05:22< Turuk> What are you leaning towards in terms of updating her?
20131226 13:06:38< vultraz> Which thread?
20131226 13:07:11< Turuk> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39782
20131226 13:10:32< vultraz> hm
20131226 13:11:26< zookeeper> well, bumping her HP is a given
20131226 13:11:36< zookeeper> not sure about the ability stuff
20131226 13:12:16< vultraz> Not sure what's wrong with keeping Skirmisher
20131226 13:12:36< vultraz> I mean, why can't she be one
20131226 13:13:33< Turuk> vultraz: Depending on what you give her as far as equipment, she becomes too powerful
20131226 13:13:50< Turuk> Dancing around other units, wrecking havoc…. she makes Konrad null and void
20131226 13:14:31< zookeeper> it's just that if she never had skirmisher in the first place, it wouldn't really make any sense to give it to the new her.
20131226 13:14:48< zookeeper> she's more like heavy infantry than a fencer after all
20131226 13:15:54< vultraz> Well it did fit her old portrait of a scantily-armored teenage girl
20131226 13:16:01< Turuk> vultraz: true
20131226 13:16:15< Turuk> zookeeper: hence my suggestion for steadfast, but some of the other folks had some good ideas
20131226 13:16:37< zookeeper> vultraz, yes, that's exactly what i just said.
20131226 13:17:12< vultraz> (TBVH I slightly miss the old portraits, but that
20131226 13:17:16< vultraz> 's just me)
20131226 13:17:20< vultraz> (new ones are great)
20131226 13:17:40< vultraz> I dunno, really. 
20131226 13:17:46< vultraz> She's supposed to be a unique unit
20131226 13:18:31< vultraz> Not a generic leadership tank
20131226 13:19:44< zookeeper> the only thing i have against steadfast is that i think it's a boring ability :/
20131226 13:20:25< Turuk> Pssh perhaps
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20131226 13:20:59< Turuk> it would fit with her holding the line as a leader
20131226 13:21:10< Turuk> But yes, it's not as pretty as others
20131226 13:21:24< Turuk> what about giving her two attacks?
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20131226 13:28:12< zookeeper> meh, everyone and their mom has melee+ranged, so giving her like a crossbow would make her even more of a general line clone
20131226 13:28:22< zookeeper> anyway, i'm afk for a while ->
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20131226 13:47:15< Turuk> zookeeper: Yes, I agree, even if it is a family heirloom passed down :P
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20131226 14:16:06< zookeeper> ok, so...
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20131226 14:25:16< zookeeper> Turuk, i'm pretty sure i suggested this somewhere but couldn't find it now; i'd think that an ability which would grant firststrike to adjacent allies would be a nice little not-too-powerful perk. in addition to keeping leadership, that is.
20131226 14:26:20< zookeeper> the main problem would be figuring out a name and description for such an ability so that it doesn't overlap too much with leadership D:
20131226 14:28:04< mattsc> zookeeper: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Wml_abilities#Initiative  :P
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20131226 14:29:11< zookeeper> the shock special (enemy will retaliate with one less strike than normally) could be nice too, except that it doesn't really fit (in EI it's used for owaec who's a mounted unit with a morningstar)
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20131226 14:29:53< zookeeper> mattsc, uh, right. a terrible implementation, that.
20131226 14:31:44< zookeeper> let's just give her feeding and be done with it
20131226 14:31:45< zookeeper> deal?
20131226 14:34:29< mattsc> zookeeper: I meant that as a: here's a name for it that's already been used, didn't look at the code at all.  :)
20131226 14:35:21< zookeeper> sure
20131226 14:35:31< mattsc> And I don't really have a strong opinion on Li'Sar.  However...
20131226 14:35:49< mattsc> While we're talking mainline characters/scenarios/balancing, if I may ask a question: why is LoW Human Alliance so hard?  I mean, I understand that it should be harder than the rest (and agree), but this is like going from a walk in the park to almost impossible.
20131226 14:36:37 * zookeeper suggests asking fendrin_
20131226 14:37:02< zookeeper> i know next to nothing about LoW except that i might vaguely recall what the storyline is about :p
20131226 14:37:27< mattsc> zookeeper: ah, ok.  I'll do that.  (and I guess I should have looked up who the maintainer is first  :P )
20131226 14:37:51< mattsc> zookeeper: on a different note, I am done with the AI for A New Land.
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20131226 14:38:13< zookeeper> cool. i'm... almost done with the scenario WML, i think
20131226 14:38:19< mattsc> Well, the first draft of it.  Obviously I have only tested its technical functionality so far.
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20131226 14:41:05< zookeeper> i'm not sure how i should make the gold carryover work. atm i set it as +5% carryover per every turn after turn 10 (so 100% at turn 30 and beyond) but that's pretty awkward
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20131226 14:44:08< zookeeper> maybe it could just be +2% per every turn, no lower limit
20131226 14:44:31< zookeeper> (or even just 1%)
20131226 14:46:39< mattsc> Hmm, yeah.  Hard to say without having tested things, but starting from the beginning might be good.
20131226 14:46:51< fendrin_> mattsc: is it still so hard?
20131226 14:47:01< mattsc> I find it hard to believe that anybody could hold out for 30 turns in the scenario I am imagining.
20131226 14:47:16< fendrin_> mattsc: I did some changes to it and thought the thing solved.
20131226 14:48:16< mattsc> fendrin_: ah, I did not know that.  My last play-through was in July.  Were your changes made after that?
20131226 14:48:59< fendrin_> no, earlier
20131226 14:49:00< mattsc> zookeeper: but then, generally not getting to 100% carry-over is probably good anyway.
20131226 14:49:05< fendrin_> then it is still too hard
20131226 14:49:08< zookeeper> mattsc, yes
20131226 14:50:00< mattsc> fendrin_: it's not impossible, but it is _much_ harder than the rest of the campaign.
20131226 14:51:03< mattsc> zookeeper: but then, some people might not make it to Turn 10 either, so maybe start with a small default carryover, and add small amounts to it per turn.  1% sounds too small though, that doesn't even really seem worth trying to go for an extra turn.
20131226 14:51:04< fendrin_> mattsc: My next step regarding the scenario is: Let the side of Galtrid and co from 3 and 7 (whose sides are already persistent) arrive during the scenario together with the rest of the units that were left behind.
20131226 14:53:10< fendrin_> mattsc: And the gold the player had left at 7.
20131226 14:53:31< mattsc> fendrin_: okay, that might work.  There's a bunch of different way how it could be done, and I don't really mind/care one way or the other, just wanted to ask the question.
20131226 14:54:30< mattsc> zookeeper: how about giving 40% gold carry-over by default (or less?), plus 10 (or so) gold extra per turn starting from Turn ... 6 (or something)
20131226 14:55:19< zookeeper> mattsc, giving gold directly could get a bit confusing when mixed with your regular income etc
20131226 14:55:36< zookeeper> i think i'll do 2% initially and then we can see if it can be balanced in a way which works well
20131226 14:56:43< mattsc> sounds good
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20131226 15:11:50< fendrin_> mattsc: Maybe I find some time during the freeze phase to spend some love on 14.
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20131226 15:26:01< mattsc> fabi: ok  :)
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20131226 15:47:36< Turuk> zookeeper: I do like calling it Initiative, it fits with what the ability is supposed to do… but maybe just with better code? :P
20131226 15:48:22< fabi> Turuk: initiative?
20131226 15:48:40< zookeeper> no, he said Initiative
20131226 15:49:56< Turuk> ca[italization is key
20131226 15:50:00< Turuk> hmm
20131226 15:50:02< Turuk> my p disappeared
20131226 15:51:00 * zookeeper ate it
20131226 15:59:27 * Turuk is shocked.
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20131226 17:25:45< zookeeper> mattsc, so, i got the scenario ready for very initial testing
20131226 17:26:20< zookeeper> would you prefer i just commit it and then you can add your AI stuff to it?
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20131226 17:32:28< mattsc> zookeeper: sure, sounds good.
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20131226 17:33:15< zookeeper> great. i'll do a few quick tests and maybe grab dinner first...
20131226 17:36:20< mattsc> No worries.  I'll be in and out all day long, so I'll just watch for the commit message and add the AI the next time I come by after that.
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20131226 19:13:29< irker308> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 74929fb28417 / data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/ (maps/15_A_New_Land.map scenarios/15_A_New_Land.cfg): Reworked the scenario so that your objective is to avoid anyone dying and that a http://git.io/Pis3TQ
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20131226 19:14:48< zookeeper> mattsc, so, for the moment the balance is probably completely out of whack, quite possibly ludicrously too easy.
20131226 19:16:12< zookeeper> gotta add some gradually increasing income shenanigans for the enemies
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20131226 19:33:32< mattsc> zookeeper: okay, let me add the AI into the scenario
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20131226 19:48:32< irker308> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 99bd9dce7b9c / data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/ (3 files in 2 dirs): TRoW S15: add new attack and retreat AI candidate actions http://git.io/3jckBw
20131226 19:50:43< mattsc> zookeeper: there it is.  I've not really done testing in the new scenario setting yet (other than making sure that it works in general) and I don't have time for that until tonight or possibly tomorrow (my time), but I'll check by here from time to time in case you have any problems with it.
20131226 19:59:10< shadowm> fabi: Instead of changing the extension you could just prepend a comment block specifying the purpose of the file just like the add-ons client currently does for _info.cfg files.
20131226 19:59:47< shadowm> I'd prefer if we didn't have a third extension for WML files.
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20131226 20:20:08< zookeeper> mattsc, sure thing.
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20131226 21:13:21< AI0867> and if the player lasts for more than 50 turns?
20131226 21:13:36< AI0867> ugh, forgot I still hadn't finished reading the scrollback
20131226 21:17:00< zookeeper> AI0867, then it just gets capped. not that i put that mechanism in yet.
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20131226 21:50:04< shadowm> src/unit.cpp line 98 is a lie.
20131226 21:50:11< shadowm> 		// Note: genders is guaranteed to be non-empty, so this is not a
20131226 21:50:14< shadowm> 		// potential division by zero.
20131226 21:50:50< shadowm> I'm in the test suite here and I got SIGFPE because genders.size() is zero.
20131226 21:54:40< irker308> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master 9d4c7e21c830 / src/tests/test_mp_connect.cpp: test suite: Create a hotkey_manager instance for the MP connect test http://git.io/bAk6nw
20131226 21:54:43< irker308> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master f94e7b48f0d4 / src/tests/test_unit_map.cpp: test suite: Create and configure an RNG instance for the unit_map test http://git.io/NkJL7g
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20131226 22:23:40< gfgtdf> shadowm: ? 
20131226 22:24:00< gfgtdf> shadowm: "Queried user was looking for you at 1d 21h ago; last spoke 31m 8s ago. shadowm is currently (also as shadowm_desktop) on the channels #wesnoth, #wesnoth-dev and #wesnoth-umc-dev."
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20131226 22:29:40< gfgtdf_> shadowm: about the gna account: i made one some time ago: http://gna.org/users/gfgtdf but i forgot my pasowod an i dont remember which email i used to register it, so i suppose there is no way to recover it. guess i have to mae a new one.
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20131226 22:46:05< mattsc> When killing a unit with shift-k in debug mode, if one accidentally hits shift-k again on the same unit while its death animation is still going on, Wesnoth segfaults.  I assume that that's not supposed to happen...
20131226 22:46:52< mattsc> This should be quite easy to fix.  I can probably even do it myself, but I won't complain if somebody else wants to do it.
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20131226 22:47:42< Coffee_irc> mattsc: it is a feature -- they have to be undead before you can kill the magain
20131226 22:48:03< mattsc> Coffee_irc: ah, yes, that makes sense.  :P
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20131226 22:49:11< shadowm> I reported a bug for a similar issue with Create Unit ages ago.
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20131226 22:51:43< mattsc> Well, I might quite well be wrong that it is easy to fix ...
20131226 22:53:20< shadowm> Well, I didn't report it, it seems. Anyway, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?18921
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20131226 23:08:59< mattsc> shadowm: hmm...  Not sure if this is the same thing, but I'll (probably) have a look into both issues at some point.
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20131226 23:13:39< shadowm> I suspect it's the same thing because in both cases there's an animation taking place and suddenly being replaced by another one.
20131226 23:14:20< shadowm> As well as a unit object being destroyed while it's still (probably) in use.
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 27 00:00:12 2013