--- Log opened Thu Jan 02 00:00:20 2014
20140102 00:27:20< fabi_> shadowm: Don't underestimate the importance of such a feature.
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20140102 00:43:12< shadowm> I don't?
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20140102 01:25:53< shadowm> mattsc: Do you have a test case of your direction calculation algorithm readily available somewhere?
20140102 01:54:18< mattsc> shadowm: no, looks like I deleted it by now.  Anything I can help with?
20140102 01:58:11< mattsc> shadowm: actually, the pastebin content still exists:  http://pastebin.com/REq8FCc6
20140102 01:59:16< shadowm> Well, I encountered an issue when using your code in that for P = (9,29), both points A and B where A = (8,5) and B = (9,5) are found to be north from P.
20140102 02:00:02< shadowm> But Px != Ax, and I'd consider A to be NW from P for my use case, which is setting relative unit facings for dialog sequences or cutscenes.
20140102 02:01:24< shadowm> That appears to happen once the distance between both points is sufficiently large, which I guess makes sense.
20140102 02:01:47< mattsc> Well, this is by design
20140102 02:02:11< mattsc> The code divides the map into 4 or 6 or 8 (roughly) equal slices.
20140102 02:02:46< mattsc> Any direction that is closer to N than to NE or NW (or whatever) is called north.  Which is how I would do it in real life as well.
20140102 02:03:10< mattsc> I know, WINR, but it made sense to me to set it up that way.
20140102 02:09:43< mattsc> shadowm: I can write another functions that only calls directions with equal x values north or south, but I would prefer not to change the existing ones because, in my opinion, (8,5) is indeed north of (9,29)
20140102 02:11:08< shadowm> I might look into it myself after I'm done with more pressing tasks.
20140102 02:14:29< mattsc> Depending on what exactly you want, you can probably use the existing function, divide things into 4 slices that you call ne,se,sw,nw, and then simply add n and s as special cases on top of that.
20140102 02:14:40< mattsc> Just let me know if I can help with anything.
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20140102 03:43:54< shadowm> Hm, here I saw two AI-controlled units with ranged and melee attacks strike at my Shadow with their melee attacks only.
20140102 03:44:01< shadowm> How does that make sense?
20140102 03:44:27< shadowm> mattsc: ^
20140102 03:44:42< mattsc> CTK with melee but not with ranged?
20140102 03:45:27< shadowm> Well, if they had used ranged attacks, they would have most likely left my shadow with very low HP anyway.
20140102 03:45:46< shadowm> Which means that I'd have been less likely to even try to kill one of those two units on the next turn.
20140102 03:46:19< mattsc> The AI does not consider what happens on the next turn, only instant gratification.
20140102 03:46:30< mattsc> If you show me the exact situation I _might_ be able to give a somewhat more informed guess.
20140102 03:47:40< shadowm> I'm afraid I don't have a save from before ending my turn.
20140102 03:48:54< mattsc> Is this with the default AI, or was it modified one way or another?
20140102 03:50:09< shadowm> Default, aggression = 5, caution = 0, grouping = no.
20140102 03:50:22< bumbadadabum> 0.5, right?
20140102 03:51:32< shadowm> I don't know what that refers to.
20140102 03:52:03< mattsc> With those settings of aggression and caution, the AI will essentially only consider damage dealt not damage received (I believe), so if the expected damage from the melee attack is higher than from the ranged attacks, that's what the unit would use.
20140102 03:52:09< mattsc> For the most part, at least ...
20140102 03:52:29< shadowm> Hm, okay.
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20140102 04:08:51< bumbadadabum> <mattsc> With those settings of aggression and caution, the AI will essentially only consider damage dealt not damage received (I believe), so if the expected damage from the melee attack is higher than from the ranged attacks, that's what the unit would use.
20140102 04:08:53< bumbadadabum> no
20140102 04:09:03< bumbadadabum> with numbers higher than 1, it will actually PREFER taking more damage
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20140102 04:21:57< mattsc> bumbadadabum: hmm, true.  I just checked the attack rating code to see if there is anything in there that prevents this from happening, but that does not seem to be the case.
20140102 04:22:55< mattsc> All the equations are something like:  rating - damage_taken * ( 1 - aggression)
20140102 04:23:58< mattsc> shadowm: so that would explain what you saw, even if the damage dealt with melee is not larger than for the ranged attack.
20140102 04:24:51< mattsc> That sounds like a design flaw to me ...   (essentially, values of aggression larger than 1 don't make sense, but they are allowed)
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20140102 04:26:11< shadowm> A scenario in HttT actually has always had an example of higher-than-1 aggression IIRC.
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20140102 05:49:09< irker294> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master ba212d70f8da / changelog src/about.cpp src/about.hpp: about: Split multi-line section headers for the credits screen http://git.io/zrVqcw
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20140102 07:01:33< irker294> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth-old:master f779202f44c8 / changelog src/display.cpp: display: Drop trailing underscore from the color_adjust_blue_ WML option http://git.io/RAtSyQ
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20140102 09:32:00< irker294> wesnoth: Andrius Silinskas wesnoth-old:master 54caecc3c0ea / src/multiplayer_create_engine.hpp: Added missing 'virtual' for some class dtors. http://git.io/2Iu0nQ
20140102 09:44:38< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 03f33bfc3001 / data/multiplayer/maps/5p_Auction-X.map: Just 4 pieces of terrain to beautify the map. http://git.io/haU7AQ
20140102 09:44:40< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 10b56130b16a / data/multiplayer/maps/8p_Mokena_Prairie.map: Replaced forest segments with those from the different climate zone. http://git.io/pdFuWw
20140102 09:44:42< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 657f3c4c8056 / data/core/units/humans/Horse_Paladin.cfg: Added image_icon with CROP argument making in fiting the sidebar box. http://git.io/s3yPsA
20140102 09:44:44< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 99ae84f32a2f / src/editor/map/map_context.cpp: Fix the loading of embedded and referenced maps. http://git.io/ZGs-yw
20140102 09:44:46< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 1c2527df9a23 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/low-macros.cfg: A macro for the new LoW bigmap from Zookeeper. http://git.io/XreEbQ
20140102 09:44:48< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 89576acca6db / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Made use of the new bigmap macro in LoW1 http://git.io/QEtgLg
20140102 09:55:21< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen noy
20140102 09:55:21< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick noy last spoke 11d 8h ago.  6d 7h ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: Quit: noy
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20140102 10:53:19< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 105763c5cac2 / src/hotkey/command_executor.cpp: Check for the smallest (25px) size if to use an action icon. http://git.io/EBWD8g
20140102 10:53:22< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master c0e2795cba06 / images/icons/action/ (21 files): Rename the minimap action icons to match the action name. http://git.io/HJNiyg
20140102 10:53:23< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master ab90eedd5f2e / data/themes/ (default.cfg editor.cfg): Remove obsolete overlay= attributes from actions which have own icons. http://git.io/ddlKNw
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20140102 12:06:52< fabi_> Ivanovic: hi
20140102 12:07:49< Ivanovic> hi fabi_
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20140102 12:43:48< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 71f808e9d9a7 / src/editor/palette/terrain_palettes.cpp: Corrected the id of the default fg terrain. http://git.io/-8kt5g
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20140102 13:16:56< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#1357 (master - 71f808e : fendrin): The build has errored.
20140102 13:16:56< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/16254082
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20140102 14:02:26< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master bebcefb587dc / src/editor/map/map_context.cpp: Save the team_name and user_team_name attribute. http://git.io/S2YhPA
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20140102 15:47:47< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 329e7cea968a / src/sound_music_track.cpp: Disable the use of vorbisfile on the Pandora. http://git.io/BFCx8Q
20140102 15:48:05< fabi_> Ivanovic: ^ Please test.
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20140102 15:57:06< Ivanovic> fabi_: works, finally i can launch the pandora version again!
20140102 15:57:17< fabi_> Ivanovic: :-)
20140102 15:59:15< mattsc> shadowm: I did a grep for aggression in all mainline campaigns.  HttT tops out at 1.0, but there are 4 other occurrences with values greater 1 (one being as high as 200!).
20140102 15:59:43< mattsc> I'll check out whether those should be changed.
20140102 15:59:56< Ivanovic> fabi_: jepp, as soon as i turn on music it crashes
20140102 16:00:05< Ivanovic> which is *BAD* sind IMO the music is too great not to have...
20140102 16:02:18< fabi_> Ivanovic: But now with the 329e7cea968a it crashes no longer, even with music?
20140102 16:04:17< Ivanovic> zu früh gefreut
20140102 16:04:34< Ivanovic> mit 329e7blaaaaaaaaaaa crasht es sobald musik an ist
20140102 16:05:09< Ivanovic> if I start the game with --nomusic it works, normale sounds (buttons) work
20140102 16:05:19< Ivanovic> once i go into the preferences and turn on music it crashes
20140102 16:05:36< Ivanovic> talking about 329e7cea968a689a80312c5e0be5da11b5d44a4b
20140102 16:08:13< fabi_> hmmm
20140102 16:10:34< fabi_> Ivanovic: Well, at least it is a hint.
20140102 16:11:09< fabi_> Ivanovic: Can you tell your cross compiler to build in debug mode and get a stack trace of the segfault?
20140102 16:14:20< mattsc> shadowm: yeah, well, that's why the cuttlefish in LoW Bounty Hunters attacks elvish marksmen with its ranged attack  :P
20140102 16:16:15< Ivanovic> fabi_: it might be possible somehow, but i don't know how
20140102 16:16:27< Ivanovic> that is: in theory it is a plain normal gcc, just compiling arm binaries
20140102 16:16:38< Ivanovic> but the segfaults don't result in automaticcaly created dumps
20140102 16:17:04< Ivanovic> so i would first need to find a working gdb somewhere, install that on the pandora and start the program from it
20140102 16:23:59< fabi_> Ivanovic: Well, I see no other possibility yet.
20140102 16:24:13< Ivanovic> i will try to pinpoint the exact revision breaking it
20140102 16:24:50< Ivanovic> do you think it was the addition of the playlist editor?
20140102 16:26:35< Ivanovic> i am about to test the following:
20140102 16:26:37< Ivanovic> [8083801e67b56769d7a7f1b5d30bb3df8d5742af] Reduced the show_menu methods to a single one.
20140102 16:26:57< Ivanovic> this was shortly after the feature addition to the editor (and it still builds without build system changes!)
20140102 16:27:12< Ivanovic> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commits/1.11.5?page=15
20140102 16:28:04< fabi_> Ivanovic: The only critical part of the playlist editor (which is in the map editor only) is the vorbisfile thing. Thus I don't think it is the playlist any longer.
20140102 16:30:12< Ivanovic> okay, that commit was still good
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20140102 16:49:02< Ivanovic> fabi_: or could it be that the check for the compiler flag is not working as intended?
20140102 16:49:49< Ivanovic> that is there is -DPANDORA defined in both CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS for my builds and there is an #ifdef on PANDORA in our normal code
20140102 16:50:31< fabi_> Ivanovic: Is there any sound related #ifdef Pandora beside the one in sound_music_track?
20140102 16:50:43< Ivanovic> not that i am aware of
20140102 16:50:57< Ivanovic> my grep -r PANDORA only found hits in sdl_utils
20140102 16:50:59< fabi_> Well, just comment out the whole block and the include.
20140102 16:51:11< fabi_> in sound_music_track
20140102 17:00:00< Ivanovic> fascinating...
20140102 17:00:29< Ivanovic> i just built a version of the game with the linker flags still including vorbis stuff but the game code not, it crashed when starting music
20140102 17:00:44< Ivanovic> lets see what happens when just removing the linker libdir from that build
20140102 17:06:00< Ivanovic> okay, removing the linking against this lib helps
20140102 17:06:12< Ivanovic> hmm, either the lib version is broken or the order matters here to not have it crash...
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20140102 17:09:27< Ivanovic> ooookay, as soon as libvorbisfile is linked into the application, it crashes on the pandora
20140102 17:09:33< Ivanovic> (which sucks...)
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20140102 17:09:55< Ivanovic> crashes when playing back ogg vorbis files
20140102 17:12:09< fabi_> Ivanovic: Hmmm, the vorbisfile was no problem at linux at all. But both, windows and mac had their problems. I wonder what makes it so fragile.
20140102 17:13:12< fabi_> Ivanovic: You don't need libvorbisfile for playing oggs. It is just used for reading the meta tags. The libsdl ogg support should be independent from it.
20140102 17:13:42< Ivanovic> the problem is i get the crash directly when having the linker folder for vorbisfile included
20140102 17:13:54< Ivanovic> +  ${VORBISFILE_LIBRARIES}
20140102 17:13:57< Ivanovic> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/commit/1e766c2246f11e74880fb263f6d8e4233b2b082c#diff-4f9e492cdcba232a0cf8c8209e65a056
20140102 17:14:04< Ivanovic> without this line it will not crash
20140102 17:14:46< Ivanovic> so the actual linking against this lib is what breaks things (tested with a version which is not using vorbisfile and just added the git diff so that it will link against it
20140102 17:15:10< Ivanovic> so i will have to tell the build system to not use the folder either
20140102 17:16:42< fabi_> Ivanovic: Can you also change the default Theme from "default" to "pandora"?
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20140102 17:24:08< Ivanovic> ?
20140102 17:24:26< Ivanovic> let me first try some stuff to see if changed order might magically help
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20140102 17:35:44< mattsc> Hi fabi_.  So is this bug fixed then?  https://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=21258
20140102 17:36:36< fabi_> mattsc: Well, yes. It is at least better than before. Maybe my solution is still suboptimal.
20140102 17:38:18< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 4a9ca54455fd / src/game_preferences.cpp: Made the "Pandora" theme the default one for the Pandora handheld. http://git.io/4T6QWw
20140102 17:38:24< fabi_> Ivanovic: ^
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20140102 17:58:37< mattsc> shadowm, bumbadadabum: I added two notes about not using aggression>1 to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AiWML#The_.5Bai.5D_Tag:_Defining_Aspects
20140102 17:58:43< mattsc> Thanks bumbadadabum 
20140102 17:58:45< bumbadadabum> ok cool
20140102 18:02:12< fabi_> happygrue: I have done some cosmetic map changes to 5p_Auction-X.map and 8p_Mokena_Prairie.map.
20140102 18:03:21< fabi_> happygrue: The first got only 4 different terrains in hex fields at the border, the later got different forest and hill variations to be more prairiey.
20140102 18:05:22< irker294> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth-old:master 2b210da5c944 / CMakeLists.txt src/CMakeLists.txt: make sure the OpenPandora build does not crash because of libvorbis http://git.io/J09uhQ
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20140102 18:06:00< fabi_> Ivanovic: And scons?
20140102 18:06:18< Ivanovic> i have no idea about scons and don't use it
20140102 18:06:34< Ivanovic> especially not for building the openpandora binary which noone else seems to do besides me
20140102 18:06:36< Ivanovic> ;)
20140102 18:06:43< happygrue> fabi_: sounds fine
20140102 18:07:26< fabi_> happygrue: Yes, I just wanted to inform a mp dev. All the changes should be cosmetic only but no change of the terrain semantic.
20140102 18:07:57< happygrue> sure.  jb is really the person would might care about that I think, but I expect that is fine
20140102 18:08:08< happygrue> he can always fix it up later if he wants to tweak something else
20140102 18:08:40< happygrue> s/would/who/
20140102 18:10:01< fabi_> happygrue: Oh, sorry, I lied. The changes to auctionx replace a void border tile with chasm. chasm is only unwalkable while void is impassable.
20140102 18:10:12< fabi_> happygrue: Maybe that was not a good idea.
20140102 18:12:49< happygrue> that could be a problem, yes
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20140102 18:46:45< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 87be0f688a65 / data/core/terrain.cfg: Fix the alias attribute of the "cloud" terrain. http://git.io/XV59gw
20140102 18:46:47< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master aa51ee8eee0d / src/editor/map/map_context.cpp: Small code cleanups. http://git.io/Sn2Z8A
20140102 18:52:37< irker294> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master c01e5345671d / data/campaigns/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Mainline campaigns: don't use aggression > 1 http://git.io/Xtf2kg
20140102 18:57:35< fabi__> Ivanovic: still around?
20140102 18:57:48< Ivanovic> jepp
20140102 18:58:13< fabi__> Ivanovic: Is my Pandora default theme switch workingß
20140102 18:58:15< fabi__> ?
20140102 18:58:41< Ivanovic> no idea, i just did my "final" build of the day based on current master (as of 30min ago) with a stripped binary
20140102 18:58:56< Ivanovic> so far i just checked if the application crashes at startup which it nolonger does
20140102 18:59:40-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: _8680_
20140102 19:01:51< fabi__> mattsc: What happens if you use aggression >1 ?
20140102 19:01:52< Ivanovic> fabi__: the theme works
20140102 19:02:02< fabi__> Ivanovic: Is it nice?
20140102 19:02:02< Ivanovic> but i found a graphic glitch when starting two brothers
20140102 19:02:20< Ivanovic> the minimap has a line at the righter area (maybe 15px from the right border of the minimap)
20140102 19:02:23< irker294> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 3ec1702835f0 / changelog: Update changelog with AI aggression changes http://git.io/Tdqa4w
20140102 19:02:31< Ivanovic> and the part right of this line mirrors the terrain shown at the left part
20140102 19:02:43< Ivanovic> not the correct terrain which should be shown there
20140102 19:02:53< mattsc> fabi__: the AI will prefer attacks in which is receives more damage.
20140102 19:03:17< fabi__> mattsc: And avoid those were it takes less damage?
20140102 19:04:13< Ivanovic> and the lower part of the minimap (should just be black since that would match the first scenarios map) also had a short glitch for a short time
20140102 19:04:17< Ivanovic> maybe have a look at this
20140102 19:04:44< mattsc> fabi__: yes.  For example, it will result in an orcish archer attacking a skeleton with its melee attack  (I actually tried, that's really what happens)
20140102 19:04:49< fabi__> Ivanovic: Hmmm, I can't reproduce any of this on my desktop.
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20140102 19:06:50< fabi__> mattsc: Yeah, I don't get why there was agression=200 in LoW.
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20140102 19:08:27< Ivanovic> so now i really should work on getting a new dev release out
20140102 19:08:34< Ivanovic> now that the pandora binary finally works again...
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20140102 19:08:35< Ivanovic> ;)
20140102 19:08:41< fabi__> Ivanovic: Yes, please do so.
20140102 19:08:59< fabi__> Ivanovic: Even if it is not the frozen one, I would really appreciate it.
20140102 19:09:54< fabi__> Ivanovic: Especially some feedback on the new theme/gui stuff before everything is frozen would be very valuable.
20140102 19:10:18< mattsc> fabi__: well, I'd guess that whoever put it in there tried to make the AI really aggressive and didn't realize that using values >1 is counterproductive.
20140102 19:10:25< Ivanovic> fabi__: this is how it looks: http://imagebin.org/284874
20140102 19:10:35< Ivanovic> you see the glitching in the lower and right area?
20140102 19:11:03< fabi__> Ivanovic: Oh yes. It is hard to misss.
20140102 19:11:35< fabi__> There are also some small glitches in the buttons.
20140102 19:12:02< Ivanovic> different glitch with the default theme
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20140102 19:12:46< Ivanovic> http://imagebin.org/284875
20140102 19:13:14< Ivanovic> look at the top left corner, the "+0%" which can be in front of or behing the Menu button
20140102 19:13:23< fabi__> ah yes
20140102 19:13:36< fabi__> This one is not a problem, I know how to fix it.
20140102 19:13:54< fabi__> But the one in the pandora theme, which I can't even reproduce will be a harder.
20140102 19:13:59< Ivanovic> and there is something wrong in the text area, too
20140102 19:14:06< Ivanovic> look at the "Knight"
20140102 19:14:13< fabi__> I see it.
20140102 19:14:17< Ivanovic> that is: for a horseman the lower part of the n is missing
20140102 19:14:48< Ivanovic> and something in the "charge" text (you will see it on the next fbgrab)
20140102 19:16:04< Ivanovic> fabi__: and i would say the position of the text in the top bar in the default resolution is one or two pixel too high for this small fontsize
20140102 19:16:17< Ivanovic> at least it is not centered vertically
20140102 19:16:39< Ivanovic> horseman / charge partly broken image: http://imagebin.org/284876
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20140102 19:18:57< Ivanovic> and please make sure to also verify how those theme changes look in different resolutions for different languages
20140102 19:19:20< Ivanovic> e.g. i already see that the "actions" button at the top will head into the turn area when using german
20140102 19:19:22< fabi__> Ivanovic: All the bugs in the default theme are most likely WML related, I will fix them as soon as LordBob provides me with a new minimap image.
20140102 19:19:25< Ivanovic> other translations might be longer
20140102 19:20:30< fabi__> Still, the pandora theme bugs give me headaches, the other pandora tester from the pandora channel did not encounter them.
20140102 19:20:55< Ivanovic> that was not the lastest build
20140102 19:20:59< Ivanovic> who was testing it, btw?
20140102 19:21:21< fabi__> hmmm, something with dragon iirc.
20140102 19:21:21< Ivanovic> maybe it was built with a different optimization, too
20140102 19:21:27< Ivanovic> EvilDragon?
20140102 19:21:37< fabi__> yes, I believe so.
20140102 19:21:59< fabi__> But I am not sure, my mind does not hold names very well.
20140102 19:22:33< Ivanovic> isn't that what the NSA created their logfiles for?
20140102 19:22:49< fabi__> Indeed :-)
20140102 19:24:25< fabi__> Ivanovic: Ah yes. EvilDragon was involved in the conversation, but the tester's name is "PowerGod".
20140102 19:24:57< Ivanovic> okay, he is currently not arround, so i can't ask how he tested things
20140102 19:25:06< Ivanovic> you were only using changed theme files, no rebuild, right?
20140102 19:26:02< fabi__> Ivanovic: Yes, he was using the latest release (should still have been 1.11.7) with updated wml files.
20140102 19:26:14< Ivanovic> no, the latest release he had access to was 1.11.4
20140102 19:26:19< fabi__> oh
20140102 19:26:27< Ivanovic> because once i encountered those crashes i did not publish more recent "real" releases
20140102 19:28:01< fabi__> I see.
20140102 19:38:56< zookeeper> Ivanovic, so, gonna release tonight or tomorrow or..=
20140102 19:38:57< zookeeper> ?
20140102 19:39:35< Ivanovic> not sure yet
20140102 19:39:41< Ivanovic> definitely not tonight
20140102 19:39:47< Ivanovic> but maybe on saturday or sunday
20140102 19:40:24< zookeeper> all right
20140102 19:53:15< irker294> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 8967551e284c / changelog players_changelog: Updated changelogs. http://git.io/Xkg3-g
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20140102 20:02:46< zookeeper> urgh. why did someone make dacyn disappear at turn 7? in the middle of fighting the enemies that you'll be relying on him to fight.
20140102 20:03:17< zookeeper> oh... it was my commit.
20140102 20:03:20 * zookeeper whistles
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20140102 20:15:10< zookeeper> mattsc, how difficult does this sound? X units, trying to _collectively_ ensure as many as possible as them reach map edges (before being ZoCed). that is, not just every unit picking the optimum path for itself individually.
20140102 20:15:28< zookeeper> as you might guess, i'm talking about the capturing ogres scenario
20140102 20:17:00< zookeeper> if every unit simply tries to run away individually, the (optimum) moves for both the ogres and the player become very predictable
20140102 20:17:55< zookeeper> so i was thinking what if the ogres acted as a team, leading to them for example running into different directions because you can't catch them all then
20140102 20:20:46< mattsc> zookeeper: from a coding perspective this is no problem at all.  The difficulty will be to come up with good criteria what that means.  Sounds like an interesting little problem.
20140102 20:22:18< mattsc> In fact, if you could set a goal to run to for each ogre, you could simply use the Goto Micro AI with avoid_enemies enabled, but I assume that it would be better to have the goals adjusted dynamically.
20140102 20:22:38< mattsc> set a *fixed goal for each ogre
20140102 20:23:54< zookeeper> yeah, definitely dynamically, otherwise you could just replay and know where each one will go
20140102 20:24:25< mattsc> true
20140102 20:25:25< mattsc> zookeeper: thinking about that will give me something to do on my jog in the rain this afternoon  ;)
20140102 20:25:38< zookeeper> well, uh, good...
20140102 20:26:23< mattsc> will the scenario setup look significantly different from the current version?
20140102 20:27:41< zookeeper> finding the optimum solution across multiple turns (predicting where the player units can reach, etc) sounds like it might not really be possible, but i don't think it needs to be _that_ smart. just something where they chaotically scramble in all directions, but still actually try to reach the edges and try to avoid capture by ZoC.
20140102 20:27:49< zookeeper> yeah, the map will be different
20140102 20:27:56< zookeeper> and you can recruit etc
20140102 20:29:31< mattsc> zookeeper: if you have a version you could send me before you log off tonight, that would be great.  It's always better to test these things in the real setup rather than an "artificial" test case.
20140102 20:29:51< zookeeper> sure, i'm trying to get it to a presentable state atm
20140102 20:30:24< mattsc> Yeah, anticipating what the player might do might not be possible, but it's often possible to get reasonable behavior with very simple rules (the swarm MAI is a prime example for that)
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20140102 20:31:13< mattsc> Great - and I don't care whether it's pretty or anything, but seeing roughly the map on which it's going to be used will help already.
20140102 20:31:57< mattsc> I'm wondering whether something like: maximize total distance from all units (incl. those on your own side) would be a good start already.
20140102 20:32:22< mattsc> zookeeper: how many ogres are there?
20140102 20:32:52< zookeeper> about 10, i think
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20140102 20:33:15< zookeeper> i was thinking that instead of granting you ability to recruit them, you'll simply get the ones you capture in your recall list
20140102 20:33:16< mattsc> oh, wow, that means we definitely cannot consider them all simultaneously...
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20140102 20:33:50< zookeeper> could be as few as 5 i suppose, since it's not like you'd ever recall that many in later scenarios
20140102 20:33:58< zookeeper> but i don't think >10 would make sense
20140102 20:34:40< mattsc> Still, even with 5, if each ogre can reach roughly 100 hexes, we have on the order of 100^5 possible combinations.  Definitely too many to try them all out.
20140102 20:41:28< mattsc> zookeeper: and they should just run, not attack, right?
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20140102 20:44:10< mattsc> Well, it might be fun to throw something in where they sometimes attack (based on some randomness added to the evaluation) in an unpredictable way.
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20140102 20:44:18< travis-ci> [travis-ci] wesnoth/wesnoth-old#1365 (master - 8967551 : ln-zookeeper): The build has errored.
20140102 20:44:18< travis-ci> [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth-old/builds/16276467
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20140102 20:45:38< mattsc> Ha!  Your changes to the changelog made travis hiccup.  (Yes, I know the difference between errored and failed, but it's funny anyway.)
20140102 20:46:04< Ivanovic> happygrue: you haven't heard something from noy about the descriptions, right?
20140102 20:48:01< zookeeper> huh?
20140102 20:48:03< zookeeper> how can that happen?
20140102 20:50:23< mattsc> zookeeper: it just means that travis timed out
20140102 20:51:19< happygrue> Ivanovic: correct, I sent some emails every few days... haven't sent one in a few days but I have not heard back in some time
20140102 20:51:36< happygrue> so we can put something fast in for units that lack anything... as a quick fix
20140102 20:52:10< Ivanovic> would be good to have something done by saturday morning (my time) so that i can get the release our
20140102 20:52:12< Ivanovic> s/our/out
20140102 20:52:27< Ivanovic> meaning in about 36h
20140102 20:52:37< fabi__> happygrue: I want to help, prose isn't me strength (well, English prose) but the Khalifate is interesting.
20140102 20:53:05< happygrue> okay, I'll send another email, and if I get nothing back I can slap something in, or Turuk could if he likes on any units missing descriptions, a few lines at least would do it.
20140102 20:54:31< happygrue> Ivanovic: one other thing, there is a major snowstorm here, so it's possible I will be knocked offline for some days, if I am not around I'm going to just say now that everything looks good from my point of view, except for these few units missing any description
20140102 20:55:33< happygrue> fabi__: if there is still nothing for the lacking units in about 30 hours from now, put what you like there, it will be better than nothing ;)
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20140102 20:55:52< happygrue> but I'll send noy an email and see if we get something, even if incomplete first
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20140102 20:57:09< fabi__> happygrue: Okay, let me see what is still missing.
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20140102 21:01:26< fabi__> happygrue: Falcons are precious possessions and status symbols of the nobles. They are used for sportive hunting usually, but are also excellent scouts and supporters in times of war. 
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20140102 21:04:39< happygrue> I'd say change sportive to sport, but that's fine.  Keep in mind that noy might have a whole chunck of stuff that replaces anything we're doing here anyway.
20140102 21:05:15< fabi__> happygrue: Maybe we leave the descriptions just empty or like they are now then until we have response from him?
20140102 21:06:58< happygrue> that is my thought.  Let's see if anything is in by "bedtime" on Friday and slip in something if there has been no response
20140102 21:07:23< fabi__> Okay
20140102 21:07:54< happygrue> or if you like, you can commit some stuff so it's there and we replace it (or leave it), either way.
20140102 21:08:12< fabi__> happygrue: From my point of view it is better if the release goes without a freeze this last time, anyway.
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20140102 21:19:20< Turuk> happygrue: I'm still happy to slap something in there, what's the deadline for it?
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20140102 21:21:54< happygrue> Turuk: about 36 hours from now.  I sent an email to noy, but I have not heard from him in a while
20140102 21:22:07< happygrue> so he might show up with lots or maybe we don't hear from him, no idea
20140102 21:22:51< Turuk> Okay, well just let me know what needs what
20140102 21:23:07< Turuk> And I can start at least putting basic descriptions in there, using the base of what's there for the current ones that are done
20140102 21:23:14< Turuk> It will not be pretty, but it will be done
20140102 21:26:06< happygrue> Turuk: http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/mainline/en_US/era_khalifate.html  
20140102 21:26:18< happygrue> all the level 1s have something, except falcon (fabi drafted something above)
20140102 21:26:30< happygrue> it's some of the 2-3 level units that are missing things
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20140102 21:28:06< happygrue> so even a copy paste hack with minor changes would be better than nothing, but what is there is very sparse for some of the units as is.  Honestly, it has been waiting for the "definative" text for so long now that I give up hope that it will ever come...
20140102 21:28:40< Turuk> Seen as status symbols of the nobles, falcons are precious possessions normally used for sport.  The same techniques are employed to rend and tear the enemies of the Khalifate, and their great speed is a boon to scouting out the land.  
20140102 21:28:42< Turuk> Okay, can do.
20140102 21:28:48< Turuk> I will try to power through some of it tonight
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20140102 21:34:42< fabi__> Turuk: "... normally used for sport." Is it clear to the native English speaker that the sport is "hunting"?
20140102 21:35:19< happygrue> yes
20140102 21:35:32< happygrue> falconing is well known
20140102 21:35:52< happygrue> even if I just made up the word falconing
20140102 21:38:15< Turuk> falconry :P
20140102 21:38:29< Turuk> Let's see, some of the others
20140102 21:39:01< happygrue> falconrying?
20140102 21:40:02< fabi__> :-)
20140102 21:40:04< happygrue> Ah, I the art of falconryingness
20140102 21:40:14< happygrue> -I
20140102 21:40:32< fabi__> The charge attack needs to be included somehow.
20140102 21:41:16< fabi__> The swoop attack just for slay deers is also pretty evil to humanoid prey!
20140102 21:42:12< happygrue> I think unit attacks get special notes anyway, so I'm not sure it's required to mention everything in the flavor text, but I am happy to deffer to anyone who writes stuff
20140102 21:42:52< Turuk> Hakim are viewed with great respect for their ability to heal injured soldiers, and their powers of healing are whispered to be the result of mystical powers.  While they do nothing to dissuade this myth, the Hakim are merely practitioners of herbal medicine whose order has centuries of knowledge to draw upon in their work.
20140102 21:42:58< Turuk> Better? Worse?
20140102 21:43:01< Turuk> Indifferent?
20140102 21:43:08< Turuk> I'm trying to get a feel for the flavor of the faction
20140102 21:44:57< happygrue> sure, seems good to me - going to be afk for a while now though
20140102 21:47:29< fabi__> Turuk: I like your prose. But... The Khalifate don't do magic. I think they even have banned it iirc. Thus rumors about their healing capabilities being mystical might bring them to the pyre. 
20140102 21:48:38< Turuk> fabi__: Certainly, but that's common in cultures that ban magic
20140102 21:48:51< Turuk> It's okay to be a healer, but if you seem to be too good at what you do….
20140102 21:49:06< Turuk> I can alter it though to show that they do not want to encourage that at all
20140102 21:49:35< Turuk> Hakim are viewed with great respect for their ability to heal injured soldiers, and their powers of healing are whispered to be the result of mystical powers.  Disregarding such rumors as the idle talk of the ignorant, the Hakim are merely practitioners of herbal medicine whose order has centuries of knowledge to draw upon in their work.
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20140102 21:55:39< fabi__> Turuk: nice
20140102 21:56:06< fabi__> Turuk: Those strings sound pretty final. You have a good hand when it comes to prose writing.
20140102 21:59:12< Turuk> Thank you, I will try to work through all of the rest as well.
20140102 22:02:12< fabi__> Turuk: By the way, you reported to have the post for the writer's forum regarding terrain prose ready. 
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20140102 22:03:27< shadowm> mattsc: Okay, thanks.
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20140102 22:04:29< Turuk> fabi__: Yes, I do, I just need to throw it out there.  I had not since it was decided it would not make it in time for this release, and so I was working on a few other things
20140102 22:04:33< Turuk> Would you like me to put it up?
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20140102 22:04:55< fabi__> Turuk: Yes, please do so.
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20140102 23:05:27< zookeeper> mattsc, didn't get it presentable enough yet, so will have to wait until tomorrow
20140102 23:05:29< mattsc> AI0867: TSG Into The Depths still crashes for me when the eye stalk attacks a unit with melee-only attacks (e.g. a pikeman).  I would consider that a blocker for the 1.11.8 release.
20140102 23:05:59< mattsc> zookeeper: okay, no worries.  I'm not sure how much time I'll have tonight anyway.
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20140102 23:08:08< shadowm> I have extended the {{DevFeature1.11}} template in the wiki so it can optionally take the specific version as a parameter, e.g. {{DevFeature1.11|1.11.5}}.
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20140102 23:09:04< mattsc> shadowm: oh, cool.  I could have used that 5 versions ago.  ;)
20140102 23:09:27< shadowm> Maybe I should make it more like {{DevFeature1.11|5}}, though.
20140102 23:11:02< mattsc> Either way is fine by me.
20140102 23:15:07< AI0867> mattsc: I'm working on it
20140102 23:19:20< mattsc> AI0867: oh, ok.  I'd forgotten where we'd left that last time.  Sorry then.  :)
20140102 23:20:49< AI0867> I don't think I replied
20140102 23:20:55< AI0867> so I can't blame you for not knowing
20140102 23:28:07< shadowm> wesbot: seen Crab_
20140102 23:28:07< wesbot> shadowm: Sorry, I don't know of Crab_.
20140102 23:28:23< mattsc> AI0867: You could always claim that you told me and that I forgot.  Most likely you'd be right, and even if not, I'd probably believe you.  :P
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20140102 23:33:38< irker294> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 9ee891db9984 / data/themes/editor.cfg: Context menu item for saving areas. http://git.io/xnXdeQ
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20140102 23:58:10< AI0867> fabi__: there's still no ctrl-o on the titlescreen
--- Log closed Fri Jan 03 00:00:28 2014