--- Log opened Thu Jan 09 00:00:50 2014
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20140109 05:20:27< fendrin_> shadowm: The editor knows "Quit Editor" and "Quit to Desktop" while the game only knows about "Quit Game". Any reason not to add "Quit to Desktop" to the game as well?
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20140109 05:39:31< shadowm> Not much of a point in doing so other than allowing people to accidentally choose the wrong option while in MP or something.
20140109 05:43:14< fendrin_> Is "Quit to Desktop" more wrong than "Quit Game"? And why is it a MP thing?
20140109 05:43:48< shadowm> Yes, it is more wrong than Quit Game because it ends the Wesnoth process. I thought that was obvious.
20140109 05:46:23< fendrin_> Well, I still don't understand why ending the Wesnoth process in MP is more evil than quiting just the game accidentally.
20140109 05:47:48< shadowm> Quitting the game accidentally is evil enough to not require a 20 pages whitepaper on that particular aspect.
20140109 05:49:14< fendrin_> Sorry, can't follow you.
20140109 05:59:46< fendrin_> The player selects accidentally "Quit Game" or "Quit to Desktop". Then the dialog asks "Do you really want to quit?". The player clicks "Yes" instead of "No", again accidentally. That seems like a very seldom scenario.
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20140109 06:04:25< shadowm> You seem to be missing my point. Quitting to desktop is more destructive for the game session than quitting to the titlescreen or lobby.
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20140109 06:05:25< shadowm> First of all, the Wesnoth process ends. If you did that by mistake, you may need to go through a lengthy loading process again. You may need to re-login to MP (
20140109 06:05:41< shadowm> (especially annoying if you wisely choose to not save your password to preferences).
20140109 06:06:35< shadowm> You may need to get back on track on what you were going to do in the titlescreen instead of quitting to desktop.
20140109 06:07:57< fendrin_> Maybe. But how often does a player click twice on the wrong thing in a row?
20140109 06:08:03< shadowm> For anyone who absolutely needs to quit to desktop there's a quick shortcut already in the form of the window's close button, which is dangerous enough with window managers that place it next to a window size control button and doesn't let you rearrange them.
20140109 06:08:15< shadowm> OK, come on, you don't really need to overthink this. Just leave it as is.
20140109 06:08:37< fendrin_> Sorry, I don't get your argument.
20140109 06:09:37< fendrin_> Quitting the game is guarded by a dialog, that is enough to prevent accidents.
20140109 06:10:03< zookeeper> shadowm's right, as usual
20140109 06:11:01< fendrin_> no, he isn't
20140109 06:18:12< irker397> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master c25849b7ea0a / data/core/terrain.cfg: Reduce the string for the village terrain from "Vit" to "Vt". http://git.io/bgiwXQ
20140109 06:18:14< irker397> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 601b842709e6 / src/editor/editor_controller.cpp: Made an error message a little nicer. http://git.io/MoaDRw
20140109 06:18:16< irker397> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master 159c91d49205 / src/playsingle_controller.cpp: Correct spelling in a comment. http://git.io/DQEVBQ
20140109 06:18:18< irker397> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master fa05514f5ae9 / data/themes/default.cfg src/display.cpp src/play_controller.cpp: Submenu for the "Back to turn x" autosave loading menu entries. http://git.io/6FVbXg
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20140109 06:37:44< fendrin_> Hmmm, the submenu seems to work nicely but there is a bug when loading savegames which drops to desktop once in a while.
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20140109 06:41:00< shadowm> Why do the wmllint text replacement entries on lines 572 through 583 contain "image=" and make assumptions on WML string value quote format?
20140109 06:41:14< shadowm> They cover the ToD schedule images.
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20140109 06:50:08< irker397> wesnoth: fendrin wesnoth-old:master a66a80efabeb / data/tools/wmllint: Don't make assumptions on WML string value quote format. http://git.io/Kbif1Q
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20140109 08:31:47< lipkab> fendrin_: The difference between the editor and a normal game is that you can launch the former directly from the desktop.
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20140109 08:32:21< lipkab> (At least all Linux distros I've played Wesnoth on provide a separate editor launcher).
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20140109 08:32:58< lipkab> Thus it's absolutely logical that you can return to the desktop from the editor but not from a game.
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20140109 12:02:48< fendrin_> lipkab: Sorry, again I fail to see the logic behind the reasoning.
20140109 12:04:40< zookeeper> that's always the case.
20140109 12:06:52< fendrin_> zookeeper: :-P
20140109 12:08:39< fendrin_> zookeeper: You can't start the KDE directly without logging on at the display manager. Thus it is totally logic that you can not shut down your computer from the Desktop. Same logic, same silly.
20140109 12:19:38< lipkab> fendrin_: Hm, that's right.
20140109 12:19:53< lipkab> If I don't count that KDM has an autologin feature :P
20140109 12:20:24< fendrin_> lipkab: Yes, and that you can disable the shutdown from Desktop in for usage in multiuser environments.
20140109 12:20:32< elias> on my Ubuntu, I can't shut down
20140109 12:20:43< elias> always brings up a popup about some permission problem
20140109 12:20:48< fendrin_> elias: oh
20140109 12:20:49< lipkab> Ubuntu is silly.
20140109 12:20:50< elias> so I first have to log out of the display manager :P
20140109 12:20:55< fendrin_> :-)
20140109 12:22:19< fendrin_> elias: Are you at FOSDEM this year?
20140109 12:33:23< elias> fendrin_: yes
20140109 12:33:35< fendrin_> elias: :-)
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20140109 12:48:41< vultraz> Do you guys always eat at the same place? :p
20140109 12:48:58< fendrin_> vultraz: Yes, a Greek.
20140109 12:49:18< fendrin_> vultraz: At FOSDEM that is.
20140109 12:51:46< vultraz> So is the story that you are now expected there each year true?
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20140109 13:15:48< AI0867> got it in one this time: http://goo.gl/maps/LHkq3
20140109 13:17:48< elias> oh yeah, the guy in the picture already knows us
20140109 13:18:25< elias> there must be at least one person who is recognizable enough that he remembered, at least :)
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20140109 14:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 208 bugs, 342 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140109 15:00:19< mattsc> fendrin_: I finally remembered to submit the preadvance event feature request: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?21464
20140109 15:01:19< mattsc> By the way, is there a reason why it's "prerecruit" and "prerecall" (no spaces), but "post advance" (with space)?
20140109 15:02:23< zookeeper> not really
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20140109 15:38:56< fendrin_> mattsc: Yeah, mostly historical reasons.
20140109 15:40:12< fendrin_> mattsc: It would be nice to have a consistent naming scheme but it would mean massive loss of backwards comparability.
20140109 15:41:10< mattsc> fendrin_: right - well, I guess we could add both options, but I'm not sure that that's worth it.
20140109 15:42:45< fendrin_> mattsc: Yes, but that causes problems. With safe file loading for example. It is doable but not that easy.
20140109 15:43:20< mattsc> fendrin_: as I said, it's probably worth it.
20140109 15:43:28< mattsc> sorry: *not worth it  :P
20140109 15:43:53< fendrin_> mattsc: I think we could collect all those attributes or tags that don't apply to the scheme and take care about that at once, maybe when we call the product a 2.0 version then.
20140109 15:45:32< fendrin_> mattsc: And then keep the API stable, until a possible 3.0 version sometime in the future.
20140109 15:45:46< fendrin_> far distant future.
20140109 15:50:56< mattsc> Sounds good to me
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20140109 17:27:02< happygrue> shadowm: Turuk: what can we say about a forum member who has "-" displayed for the last time they visited?
20140109 17:27:06< happygrue> is that more than a year?
20140109 17:27:16< Turuk> Who is this?
20140109 17:27:31< happygrue> Doc
20140109 17:27:34< Turuk> Hmm
20140109 17:27:49< happygrue> he might have visted using another account, but I doubt he's going to get the PM I sent him
20140109 17:28:00< happygrue> jb responded that he's happy to pass what torch he carrier
20140109 17:28:02< happygrue> *carried
20140109 17:28:03< Turuk> No because you can find plenty of people who might not have logged in since 2006, 2008… Just try the beginning of the members list :P
20140109 17:28:30< happygrue> Doc logged in a while back because he responded to a PM, I just wondered if there was a way to tell just how long it's been
20140109 17:28:43< happygrue> but surely more than a month, right?
20140109 17:28:48< Turuk> Hmm
20140109 17:28:49< Turuk> it says
20140109 17:28:56< Turuk> Last visited:	Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:12 pm
20140109 17:29:05< Turuk> http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=100361
20140109 17:29:17< happygrue> I get "-" displayed there
20140109 17:29:35< happygrue> Last visited:	 -
20140109 17:29:39< Turuk> happygrue: what do you see for…. http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7
20140109 17:29:51< happygrue> Last visited:	Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:52 pm
20140109 17:29:55< Turuk> bah
20140109 17:29:58< Turuk> That's three years
20140109 17:30:17< Turuk> the only thing I can think is that if he has himself set to hidden
20140109 17:30:19< Turuk> When he logs in
20140109 17:30:24< happygrue> probably
20140109 17:30:39< happygrue> but anyway, since February is long enough that I'm not going to hold my breath
20140109 17:30:43< Turuk> Yes he does, he has hide my online status set to yes
20140109 17:30:44< happygrue> so that's what I need to know, thanks
20140109 17:30:50< Turuk> So that's probably why most users can't see a date
20140109 17:30:54< Turuk> Okay, glad to help
20140109 17:31:04< happygrue> so that means: no one is in charge of maps
20140109 17:31:13< happygrue> Doc used to do 1v1, jb would do 2v2 and the rest
20140109 17:31:32< Turuk> That is correct, we have no one
20140109 17:31:37< Turuk> Unless Velensk is interested
20140109 17:31:37< happygrue> unless someone else is the map guy, and no one seems to know so I am guessing not, then we should change this
20140109 17:32:01< happygrue> he indicated interest, I have not followed up because I wanted to see if it was possible before doing so
20140109 17:32:09< happygrue> Ivanovic: I think we should ask Velensk to do maps
20140109 17:32:16< happygrue> jb supports it, Doc is MIA
20140109 17:32:21< happygrue> and I don't really want to do it
20140109 17:33:55< Turuk> All in favor, say aye
20140109 17:34:01< happygrue> I asked if he would be interested in helping with map stuff, without promising anything.  He said he is interested enough to learn more about what that would entail.  He has a strong forum presence, a map in the game and stays current with maps in general
20140109 17:34:14< happygrue> he said he could use IRC too, which I said would be a very good thing to do
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20140109 18:12:55< fendrin_> aye
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20140109 18:18:50< Ivanovic> happygrue: 
20140109 18:19:06< Ivanovic> i am a little clueless why you ping me about this
20140109 18:19:20< Ivanovic> is there anything speaking against him doing maps? does he not want to do maps?
20140109 18:22:53< Turuk> Ivanovic: Most likely as to who should be the decision point on such things
20140109 18:26:51< zookeeper> well, no one objects so i guess more like who needs to be asked to give him push access
20140109 18:28:05< Turuk> zookeeper: So who decides on reverting things?
20140109 18:28:48< zookeeper> anyone, everyone or no one, depending on how you look at it :p
20140109 18:30:04< Turuk> Ha, interesting.  So what about reverting controls to default and making the new scheme an option?
20140109 18:30:46< happygrue> I only ping you Ivanovic because I am a bit unsure of the process.  If you have no objection and no one else seems to then I'll go ahead and ask him
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20140109 18:31:21< zookeeper> Turuk, in this case i'd ask fendrin to it himself since i'd think he's gotta be convinced enough at this point that people don't like it.
20140109 18:31:25< zookeeper> +do
20140109 18:31:26< fendrin_> Turuk: let me decide on reverting my stuff myself, I am competent enough to do such stuff myself.
20140109 18:32:02< Turuk> fendrin_: I said nothing about who would do the reverting or had the competency, but I'm talking about the actual decision point at which such a thing is done
20140109 18:32:39< fendrin_> Turuk: Indeed. I am talking about the decision. I am competent enough to do the decision myself. No need for your help, thank you.
20140109 18:33:04< zookeeper> Turuk, see, reverting is unfortunately often a very touchy issue :p
20140109 18:34:01< Turuk> zookeeper: So I can make changes to trunk and I don't have to revert them if I don't want to?
20140109 18:34:43< Turuk> fendrin_: I was merely discussing it as you don't seem to agree with the consensus that it should change.
20140109 18:36:44< zookeeper> Turuk, i think that's how it usually goes, assuming other developers don't feel very very strongly about what you did and if you as much as say that you're going to make it better yourself.
20140109 18:37:34< fendrin_> Turuk: I don't see that there was reached a consensus. Still no need to call the police..
20140109 18:38:13< zookeeper> i believe that historically those kind of situations have been very rare though, usually people don't commit especially controversial changes.
20140109 18:38:37< Turuk> fendrin_: Call the police? What are you talking about? I've asked for a better understanding of the process
20140109 18:39:09< fendrin_> Turuk: Well, usually Ivanovic or Dave have the last word.
20140109 18:40:56< Turuk> zookeeper: That makes sense, though in this case it seems that there has been cause for concern but those concerns have are being ignored.
20140109 18:41:19< fendrin_> Turuk: But it also depends who is the master of a certain field. In case of the editor it might already be me. Zookeeper for WML syntax. shadowm or you for forum stuff. mordante for gui2 related stuff. 
20140109 18:42:04< fendrin_> Turuk: The mp developers, noy, happygrue, jb about mp related stuff.
20140109 18:42:11< noy> ?
20140109 18:42:18< Turuk> fendrin_: Being the master of your field does not mean you have tyrannic authority over what changes are made.  I'm aware we all normally operate in certain areas
20140109 18:43:14< fendrin_> Turuk: I have an impression that differs. Sometimes there are tyrannic attempts.
20140109 18:43:45< fendrin_> noy: We talk about who decides on reverting changes, and who is in charge of certain areas of the project.
20140109 18:43:56< noy> everybody does
20140109 18:44:26< Turuk> Attempt are one thing, I am referencing your indication that only it falls on a person(s) to make decisions for that area, and only them
20140109 18:44:39< noy> well not exactly
20140109 18:44:47< noy> some people do have wider influences 
20140109 18:46:26< fendrin_> Well, still we usually respect decisions made by Dave or Ivanovic.
20140109 18:47:51< fendrin_> Okay, have to go now. See you all later :-)
20140109 18:53:49< Turuk> fendrin_: What do you define as a consensus then?
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20140109 19:12:17< Soliton> i think before trying to figure out what the current consensus is between devs some technical details need to be solved. like so far it seems to me that a robust change path (i.e. what happens with existing preferences) to the new control scheme doesn't exist which makes it a no-go for a stable release IMO.
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20140109 19:37:33< timotei_> Soliton: So the new control scheme is enable by default without havnig any proper means of visually changing that back, except modifying a config file??
20140109 19:37:42< timotei_> Cause if that's the case, I agree with you.
20140109 19:38:42< timotei_> And as about the 'default' setting, if no consesus is reached me might go to a solution like: 'first-time ask of what control scheme the user wants and use that'
20140109 19:39:09< Soliton> you can change the bindings from the game or reset to defaults.
20140109 19:44:48< Turuk> timotei_: Most users do not readily know how to alter their bindings though, which is why it was included in the release notes as shadowm perceived there might be issues with it as the new default.
20140109 19:46:28< Soliton> they also will not know what is wrong to begin with so might not even think to change the bindings.
20140109 19:47:44< Turuk> ^ Agreed, a few people thought that their release was broken as they weren't able to move a unit (attempting the normal default methods)
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20140109 19:47:57< timotei_> Well, I got confused myself also. I didn't even got a warning that my binding were changed without my "approval" :(
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20140109 19:51:13< timotei_> But then again, showing at least a note, if not a choice - which I think would be better, on a first-time only basis is the way to go. At least with this kind of fundamental changes.
20140109 19:53:05< Turuk> timotei_: Indeed, it's disorienting if you have played for any length of time.  It should be at minimum a choice on start, or more suitably, made an option instead of default
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20140109 20:28:03< aquileia> May I note that there is alray consensus on this? r.wesnoth.org/p565404 Fendrin already agreed to try to implement the question first time question.
20140109 20:29:15< aquileia> May I note that there is already consensus on this? r.wesnoth.org/p565404 Fendrin already agreed to try to implement the first time question.
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20140109 20:34:18< Turuk> aquileia: Right, that is a possible solution, but there's no consensus on whether it should stay the default or not
20140109 20:35:01< fendrin_> Soliton: Yes, everything you said is right.
20140109 20:38:56< fendrin_> Turuk: I think to go a more conservative way. Only when the game detects that it is started for the first time in this new version it will ask? "Do you want to participate in improving an experimental control scheme?". There needs to be a manual to explain how it works that also explains how to switch vice versa.
20140109 20:40:02< Turuk> fendrin_: That makes sense. So reinstating the old defaults, and then prompting the user if they want to implement your work?
20140109 20:40:19< Turuk> It could also change what tutorial they are given, as the current tutorial walks a user through the normal default method
20140109 20:40:47< fendrin_> Yes, I think that is a good way to go. It will bother the user only once if he is not interested.
20140109 20:41:18< fendrin_> The problem with the tutorial is that there is no way to ask from WML world which bindings are active.
20140109 20:41:53< fendrin_> But maybe that is easily fixed.
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20140109 20:44:02-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 208 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140109 20:45:57< mattsc> fendrin_: independent of the question what should be the default, here's some feedback.  I switched to your new system when you added it (a month or so ago?) and stayed with it to see if I like it, but switched back to the old method this morning, mostly for two reasons:
20140109 20:47:11< mattsc> 1. In what I am doing, I work a lot with the right-click menu (mostly for AI testing), and having two click 2 or 3 times before I can use the menu seems somewhat cumbersome.
20140109 20:47:21< fendrin_> indeed
20140109 20:47:31< fendrin_> That is a weak point of the scheme.
20140109 20:47:56< mattsc> 2. More importantly, the touchpad on my Mac has only one button.  Two get a right-click, I either have to press one of the keys, or do a two-finger click.
20140109 20:48:13< fendrin_> Yes, the scheme wants a mouse with buttons.
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20140109 20:48:50< mattsc> I don't want to do the former, and the second is somewhat flaky.  It seems to have a pretty high rate of it being interpreted as a singlefinger (=left button) click.
20140109 20:49:14< mattsc> So, for my hardware, I decided to go back to the old method.
20140109 20:49:21< mattsc> ... and my usecase.
20140109 20:49:35< mattsc> But I did give it a try for several weeks before deciding that.
20140109 20:49:43< fendrin_> Do you miss the move unit to hex, which is no longer available now?
20140109 20:49:58< fendrin_> I mean select hex and move unit in.
20140109 20:50:33< mattsc> If I understand it correctly, I had never used that before, so no, I don't miss it.
20140109 20:50:42< fendrin_> Okay :-)
20140109 20:51:10< mattsc> So anyway, I think I gave it a fair try but decided that for me the old method works better.  :)
20140109 20:51:33< fendrin_> Indeed, it is not fine for touch devices.
20140109 20:51:51< fendrin_> Or one button mice.
20140109 20:53:04< fendrin_> mattsc: Is there anything more you discovered? No suggestions how it can be improved?
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20140109 20:56:33< mattsc> fendrin_: well, if there were any way for easier deselecting of a unit that would be nice, but I don't see how that could be done.
20140109 20:57:28< fendrin_> mattsc: Yeah, well there might be a good solution. I just have not found it yet :-)
20140109 20:58:43< mattsc> That's the main issue I had when playing at home or in the office (where I do have a multi-button mouse).
20140109 20:59:27< mattsc> As I said, I do a lot of right-click menu stuff for AI testing, so it bugged me more than it might other people.
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20140109 21:20:47< irker865> wesnoth: Alarantalara wesnoth-old:master 92b7e8fc39e2 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/12_The_Final_Confrontation.cfg: Remove unneeded [and] http://git.io/_CWRKw
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20140109 21:22:44< fendrin_> mattsc: Yes, I am a little sad that you did not discover the named feature.
20140109 21:23:44< mattsc> named feature?   (or do you mean "genannt" which better translates to mentioned? :P )
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20140109 21:30:31< fendrin_> mattsc: yes
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20140109 21:31:20< mattsc> fendrin_: then I think I did discover it, but never really got used to doing it that way.
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20140109 22:52:47< shadowm> happygrue: It means either that they've never visited the forums or last visited in hidden mode/have hidden mode activated in the UCP.
20140109 22:53:08-!- shadowm_desktop [ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20140109 22:54:21< shadowm> Ucer Control Panel -> Board preferences -> Edit global settings -> Hide my online status or the equivalent field in the login form.
20140109 22:55:16< shadowm> Only people who can see hidden users in Who Is Online are allowed to see their last visit time in their profile in that case. This is the case for the Administrators group in our configuration.
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20140109 23:05:21< AI0867> 21:49 < fendrin_> Do you miss the move unit to hex, which is no longer available now? <-- I've found this feature to be mostly annoying, though I haven't really played enough games to test the cases where it might be of use
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20140109 23:06:08< happygrue> got it, thanks
20140109 23:07:01< fendrin_> AI0867: Please tell me more.
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20140109 23:07:33< AI0867> you can't just left-click a random location to get an overlay-free map again
20140109 23:07:58< AI0867> and with a hex selected, using the old control scheme, attempting to select a unit is not a good idea
20140109 23:08:46< fendrin_> Wait, the old control scheme disables the feature.
20140109 23:09:03< AI0867> right, maybe that's from longer ago
20140109 23:09:08< fendrin_> most likely
20140109 23:09:33< shadowm> Comparing Wesnoth to a desktop environment that is by design supposed to allow you to control your whole computer's operation is ridiculous.
20140109 23:09:55< fendrin_> Very true.
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20140109 23:14:43< fendrin_> AI0867: But you can double left click on any hex field. The just left on highlighted was fatal. Maybe you tested the old scheme before the double left click even?
20140109 23:17:10< fendrin_> AI0867: Sorry. I mean, the old scheme is only supporting that for unenlightened hexes. While the new scheme works now  everywhere with a double click. 
20140109 23:17:39< fendrin_> Very early implementations did not feature the double click deselection.
20140109 23:19:23< fendrin_> Double click just being two clicks in the same hex, no matter what time between. Thus they are not really double clicks technically. The implementation is just if (already_selected) unselect; else select;
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20140109 23:57:33< mattsc> AI0867: isn't there a 'take screenshot' hotkey?
--- Log closed Fri Jan 10 00:00:01 2014