--- Log opened Sat Jan 11 00:00:04 2014
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20140111 00:09:24< anonymissimus> AI0867: thanks for updating the project files; though it seems you messed up the xcode one it worked fine for CB and MSVC
20140111 00:10:18< AI0867> I did the same for all of them, but apparently it's just not possible to update xcode projectfiles without using xcode
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20140111 00:19:27< anonymissimus> yeah, the scode file seems to be even a lot more complicated than the MSVC one
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20140111 02:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 211 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140111 09:26:11< Coffee_irc> something has happened to the movement on village + terrain?
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20140111 13:08:00< furquan> what is the basic knowledge requirement to contribute to the Game
20140111 13:10:49< furquan> anybody?
20140111 13:14:32< lipkab> furquan: Depends on what you want to contribute.
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20140111 14:15:28< shadowm> fendrin_: According to git log -p data/core/terrain.cfg, the last change on the file changed the terrain string for the terrain to which villages are aliased without updating existing references.
20140111 14:15:39< shadowm> You can guess the rest.
20140111 14:16:06< fendrin_> villages are no villages any more
20140111 14:19:46< furquan> what is the knowledgebase required before contributing anything to the WESNOTH
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20140111 14:22:23< fendrin_> furquan: hmmmm
20140111 14:23:12< fendrin_> furquan: We have coding conventions but these are for c++. If you want to contribute non c++ code they won't be of much help.
20140111 14:23:40< fendrin_> furquan: You should know how to submit a patch/git hub merge request properly.
20140111 14:24:33< fendrin_> furquan: Comming here in the channel (and doing so regularly) is already a major step in the right direction.
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20140111 14:35:02< zookeeper> furquan, as said, it depends on what you want to contribute.
20140111 14:35:44< zookeeper> obviously you don't need to know coding if you want to draw, and you don't need to know how to draw if you want to code.
20140111 14:36:48< zookeeper> so i guess it's just 1) good basic computer skills and 2) knowledge of whatever it is you want to do
20140111 14:38:51< zookeeper> although i suppose that if someone wants to contribute but does _not_ already know what sort of things they'd be able to do, then they probably don't have the necessary skills.
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20140111 14:40:16< zookeeper> if you don't know whether you could do art, then you can't do art. and if you don't know whether you could code, then you can't code.
20140111 14:45:20< furquan> zookeeper -> i know i can code... but what i am specifically asking that is there any prerequisite to the knowledge regarding codes for games. I never have developed anything related to games
20140111 14:46:03< zookeeper> oh, okay. no, i don't think you need to know anything specific about game programming.
20140111 14:47:12< furquan> okay... well i basically want to develop something useful for the game under the Google Summer of Code this year
20140111 14:47:45< furquan> what better than the open source game i thought, so i started to look for it..
20140111 14:48:00< furquan> Is there any minimum system requirement for builds to run
20140111 14:48:23< zookeeper> maybe if we were a cutting edge 3d game with lots of performance requirements then it might be different, but...
20140111 14:49:21< furquan> Then could you point me to the direction where i could get started with the builds and start coding
20140111 14:49:35< zookeeper> i don't know about requirements on other platforms, but any pc from this millennium ought to do it :P
20140111 14:50:42< furquan> zookeeper?
20140111 14:50:52< zookeeper> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth
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20140111 14:51:04< irker487> wesnoth: Turuk wesnoth-old:master 0ffa372f1498 / data/core/terrain.cfg: Villages fixed to give defense benefit again. http://git.io/SnVk-w
20140111 14:51:18< zookeeper> i don't do wesnoth coding myself so i don't know about any of the build stuff really
20140111 14:51:45< fendrin_> Turuk: Thank you :-)
20140111 14:52:14< zookeeper> but all the coders do hang out here so if you don't get a response right away then just wait...
20140111 14:52:15< shadowm>  There are terrains in mainline campaigns that need to be fixed too.
20140111 14:52:34< shadowm> See e.g. UtBS/utils/terrain.cfg line 25.
20140111 14:53:05< Turuk> fendrin_: You are welcome.
20140111 14:53:22< shadowm> There are also terrains with aliasing indirection there (e.g. same file line 50), which results in spurious sections being added to the help system.
20140111 14:55:09< furquan> zookeeper -> Thanx :)
20140111 14:55:52< shadowm> Really someone should throw a few rules at wmllint and see whether they do any good. Too lazy to try that myself atm though.
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20140111 14:59:28< fendrin_> shadowm: Aliasing to anything unknown can be regarded as a cause to stop. Like missing unit.
20140111 15:01:02< shadowm> Perhaps, but that doesn't make updating terrain references in mainline correctly any less important.
20140111 15:02:44< fendrin_> Yes, the wmllint fix additional to some engine reaction is nice.
20140111 15:03:06< Turuk> shadowm: what exactly needs to be cut?
20140111 15:04:38< fendrin_> Turuk: The same thing. "Vit --> Vt"
20140111 15:04:57< Turuk> Fixing...
20140111 15:05:06< fendrin_> :-)
20140111 15:05:59< zookeeper> what was the reason for that change anyway?
20140111 15:06:01< Turuk> what does the alias need to be?
20140111 15:06:02< shadowm> Turuk: And indirect aliasing.
20140111 15:06:10< Turuk> shadowm: What should it go to?
20140111 15:06:16< shadowm> Ch needs to be Ct, etc. I don't have a list, unfortunately.
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20140111 15:06:25< Turuk> okay, I see two Ch's
20140111 15:06:28< Turuk> I'll make them Ct
20140111 15:07:17< irker487> wesnoth: Turuk wesnoth-old:master b74d72332866 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: UtBS: Updating aliases to correct form. http://git.io/_g33kQ
20140111 15:08:10< shadowm> Also, I expect this problem to exist in other terrains defined by mainline campaigns.
20140111 15:08:24< fendrin_> http://imagebin.org/286148
20140111 15:08:41< zookeeper> fendrin_, are you saying that you changed the village archetype terrain code but at no point realized that it'd break things?
20140111 15:09:16< fendrin_> zookeeper: Sure did I realize that.
20140111 15:10:28< zookeeper> so why did you do it and knowingly break... all villages?
20140111 15:11:37< fendrin_> That was a mistake.
20140111 15:12:37< fendrin_> I thought you speak about the introducing of more Vt and Ct and more.
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20140111 15:17:08< fendrin_> zookeeper: shadowm told me that "Vt ---> Vit" is a good thing to do. I thought that would be the only bug, not realizing that I had introduced the wrong string global. Meaning, I thought I would fix a single broken terrain, while I had to refactor it.
20140111 15:17:30< shadowm> fendrin_: Please give me a complete list of base terrains that were changed in 1.11.x later.
20140111 15:17:31< fendrin_> s/Vt ---> Vit/Vit ---> Vt
20140111 15:17:40< fendrin_> shadowm: Yes
20140111 15:17:52< fendrin_> shadowm: Give me some time please.
20140111 15:17:59< shadowm> I'll document this and see about adding wmllint rules to ease the transition, both things you should have done before 1.11.8.
20140111 15:18:30< shadowm> The existing wmllint code handling terrains won't do much good because AFAIR it deals with terrains in any context and not just aliasof.
20140111 15:20:11< shadowm> I think I'm going to start demanding changelog entries within 24 hours for every commit I notice that changes public-facing syntax.
20140111 15:20:15< shadowm> Not suggesting, demanding.
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20140111 16:24:03< gfgtdf> id' like to add a way to get the untranslated string from a lua tstring object: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=39874&p=565726#p565726, any thoughts about it?
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20140111 16:32:36< zookeeper> terrain string aside, are there any compatibility-breaking changes from 1.10 to 1.12?
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20140111 16:43:07< fendrin_> shadowm: http://pastebin.com/3fh0Wz7D
20140111 16:44:01< fendrin_> zookeeper: Only in UMC self defined terrain. That is what wmllint will repair. The aliases to base terrain. The maps are full compatible.
20140111 16:45:14< zookeeper> speaking of which, it'd be super duper hyper useful if there was an online wmllint you could just feed files/add-ons and it'd spit out updated versions of them
20140111 16:45:35< fendrin_> nice idea
20140111 16:46:17< fendrin_> But wmllint is not really context less.
20140111 16:46:25< fendrin_> I don't know how it does on single files.
20140111 16:47:41< zookeeper> well it could still perform basic conversion tasks at least
20140111 16:47:55< Turuk> are those terrain changes on the alias only
20140111 16:47:57< Turuk> or the string as well
20140111 16:48:02< fendrin_> only the alias
20140111 16:48:24< fendrin_> Thus the map compatibility.
20140111 16:52:38< Turuk> that changes some more things in the UtBS then with all of those
20140111 16:52:39< Turuk> hmm
20140111 16:53:16< irker487> wesnoth: Turuk wesnoth-old:master b282d315c407 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/utils/terrain.cfg: UtBS: Adjusted for new Underground alias http://git.io/P3-n-A
20140111 16:53:26< fendrin_> Turuk: You don't need to take care. Wmllint will do it after shadowm adjusted it.
20140111 16:53:53< Turuk> I mean, I'm here, working on rewriting a UMC, everyone in my house is napping
20140111 16:53:56< Turuk> It's not exactly fun central
20140111 16:54:11< fendrin_> :-)
20140111 17:01:25< fendrin_> Limited special edition, with golden sliders: http://imagebin.org/286165 Order now!
20140111 17:04:25< fendrin_> zookeeper: Maybe it can be feed with an archive containing the whole campaign, which is then be checked against a default datadir.
20140111 17:04:43< fendrin_> zookeeper: But there is still the problem of dependencies.
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20140111 17:31:42< fendrin_> Golden slider with black line is my favorite.
20140111 17:39:21< zookeeper> why sliders instead of the previous radio buttons?
20140111 17:40:59< fendrin_> The radio button solution was criticized for being ugly.
20140111 17:41:23< fendrin_> But you are not the only one who thinks they fit better.
20140111 17:41:39< fendrin_> At the end I want to have at least 2 more colors.
20140111 17:41:49< fendrin_> The more colors the better the slider, imho.
20140111 17:43:55< fendrin_> The slider's line also gives an immediate cue which items are connected.
20140111 17:44:19< fendrin_> The radio buttons are somewhat ambiguous when it comes to how they are grouped.
20140111 17:45:20< AI0867> can't we turn the orbs into radio buttons?
20140111 17:45:35< AI0867> overlay a golden circle when selected?
20140111 17:45:57< AI0867> the actual selection mechanic might be rather unintuitive like this
20140111 17:47:09< zookeeper> yeah. it's awkward to operate a slider when all you really want is to click on the orb itself.
20140111 17:49:15< fendrin_> It might need some changes and additional features for the radio button class. 
20140111 17:49:55< fendrin_> Anyway, the idea is fine. I wanted to go for this solution first.
20140111 17:51:57< fendrin_> Then the slider one seemed a lot easier.
20140111 17:55:11< fendrin_> I could just mount the leader crown on the selected orb :-)
20140111 17:56:08< AI0867> that would work
20140111 17:56:12< AI0867> it might look a bit silly
20140111 17:56:14< AI0867> but it would work
20140111 17:56:39< fendrin_> Well, Lord Bob will give me a nice overlay to make the orbs work like radio buttons.
20140111 17:56:50< fendrin_> If we can agree that this a better solution...
20140111 17:56:53< fendrin_> I am all for it.
20140111 17:58:46< fendrin_> But I do not want to change it again afterwards.
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20140111 18:12:37< fendrin_> ancestral: hi
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20140111 18:12:55< fendrin_> ancestral: Your feature request regarding the map meta data.
20140111 18:13:04< fendrin_> ancestral: Do you like to discuss it again?
20140111 18:13:14< ancestral> From like 4 years ago?
20140111 18:13:22< ancestral> :-P
20140111 18:15:37< fendrin_> ancestral: 2 years.
20140111 18:15:45< ancestral> I stand corrected
20140111 18:15:55< fendrin_> ancestral: It is from the beginning of the 1.11 cycle.
20140111 18:16:14< ancestral> fendrin_: Well, what do you think?
20140111 18:16:29< ancestral> (about the FR)
20140111 18:16:36< fendrin_> You have most likely noticed that I reverted the old map format again.
20140111 18:17:18< ancestral> I probably didn’t notice. I’m not that active with Wesnoth anymore
20140111 18:17:50< fendrin_> I rather do not like to have more stuff like "border_size" and "usage", the contrary, I would like to see them gone.
20140111 18:18:25< ancestral> I think my feeling was maps are placed in a folder and people don’t know who made them
20140111 18:18:41< fendrin_> But I could add the missing of your proposed meta information into what the editor produces when in "scenario" mode.
20140111 18:18:50< ancestral> So why not just put the author’s name in the file? If anything, as a comment
20140111 18:19:27< fendrin_> Comments are not valid inside of the file.
20140111 18:19:35< fendrin_> A wml comment destroys the map.
20140111 18:19:46< ancestral> As you can see, it’s virtually impossible right now :-D
20140111 18:19:52< fendrin_> yes
20140111 18:19:57< zookeeper> well, then if the editor was simply able to skip #comments in map files, everything would be fine, no?
20140111 18:20:34< zookeeper> sounds like a very easy feature to me
20140111 18:20:37< fendrin_> What the editor writes into the file needs to work inside of mapdata="{filepath}"
20140111 18:20:46< fendrin_> This is the hard thing about it.
20140111 18:21:24< AI0867> comments don't work inside strings
20140111 18:21:28< AI0867> that's the issue
20140111 18:21:31< zookeeper> AI0867, ahh, right.
20140111 18:21:32< fendrin_> yes
20140111 18:22:08< zookeeper> but does the preprocessor strip the comments before stuffing the string?
20140111 18:22:19< zookeeper> i mean it has to preprocess that file first
20140111 18:22:27< AI0867> zookeeper: the preprocessor knows it's inside a string when it starts reading the file
20140111 18:23:08< zookeeper> AI0867, huh. okay. and because of that it... doesn't remove comments?
20140111 18:23:24< AI0867> possibly, a mapfile that looks like this could work: Gg,Gg"+\n#some comment\n"Gg,Gg
20140111 18:24:06< AI0867> zookeeper: well, a '#' is a valid character inside a tring
20140111 18:24:09< AI0867> string*
20140111 18:24:10< ancestral> What if you just introduced a new or used an existing tag?
20140111 18:24:21 * zookeeper likes that sort of hacks
20140111 18:24:32< ancestral> Hacks usually aren’t good
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20140111 18:24:58< ancestral> Hacks are bandaids, they’re not long term solutions :-P
20140111 18:25:13< zookeeper> ancestral, from a modder's perspective hacks are awesome :>
20140111 18:25:26< ancestral> Alright, I can respect that
20140111 18:25:40< fendrin_> From my perspective any sort of wml inside a "pure map file" is a bad thing.
20140111 18:26:03< fendrin_> And the wml attribute like border_size and usage are from hell.
20140111 18:26:22< ancestral> I’ve been fairly removed from Wesnoth lately, but scenario files have metadata. Campaign files have metadata. Unit files do too?
20140111 18:26:50< ancestral> But map files don’t.
20140111 18:27:15< zookeeper> that's because map files are the only ones that aren't WML
20140111 18:27:27< ancestral> What if you made them WML?
20140111 18:27:28< zookeeper> as long as it's WML, you can put whatever metadata you could ever want in there
20140111 18:27:34< fendrin_> ancestral: Let me try again to make the proposal. I think I wasn't verbose enough.
20140111 18:28:21< fendrin_> ancestral: I tend to regard the old map file format where you just have the pure map data in the file as an old and deprecated method of storing maps.
20140111 18:28:58< fendrin_> ancestral: Let's keep it around for backward compatibility issues and do no fancy stuff to it.
20140111 18:29:48< fendrin_> ancestral: All the stuff you like to have saved can be handled in the "scenario" mode of the editor.
20140111 18:30:50< fendrin_> ancestral: That is in fact a mode where the editor writes extra wml into the file.
20140111 18:31:01< ancestral> You mean a scenario file?
20140111 18:31:43< fendrin_> more or less
20140111 18:31:55< fendrin_> There is no [multiplayer] or [scenario] around it.
20140111 18:32:08< fendrin_> But all the code is scenario wml.
20140111 18:33:15< fendrin_> I could add surrounding tags. But without them it is easier to load the map file with the extra wml into a handcoded scenario file. 
20140111 18:33:33< ancestral> Well, I’m not very active in Wesnoth these days
20140111 18:33:37< ancestral> But I can tell you this
20140111 18:34:18< ancestral> I downloaded 1.11.8 and if I look through the data, there’s a map folder full of maps and I have no clue who created what
20140111 18:34:28< ancestral> Or what version it’s at
20140111 18:34:38< ancestral> Or what version it’s supported for
20140111 18:35:04< zookeeper> through the userdata you mean, i presume
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20140111 18:35:42< ancestral> Am I missing something? Is there a document or manifest that describes the maps?
20140111 18:36:05< ancestral> I’m looking in data/multiplayer/maps/
20140111 18:36:21< zookeeper> mainline maps, then. look in the scenario files for any metadata there is
20140111 18:36:44< ancestral> What about multiplayer maps?
20140111 18:37:00< zookeeper> we're talking about mainline multiplayer maps
20140111 18:37:22< zookeeper> mainline multiplayer maps consist of a map file and a scenario file
20140111 18:37:37< ancestral> Ah, in /data/multiplayer/scenario
20140111 18:37:40< zookeeper> yeah
20140111 18:39:01< fendrin_> But ancestral is right, you can have pure map files and distribute them. Those can't be enriched with meta data.
20140111 18:41:18< ancestral> A scenario file can contain map data, right?
20140111 18:41:22< zookeeper> yes
20140111 18:41:35< ancestral> What if map files were just scenario files with map data in them?
20140111 18:42:08< ancestral> Then you have very portable, transferrable, self-contained maps
20140111 18:42:11< zookeeper> that's what i'd prefer, really. the editor would just need to be able to intelligently load/save the map data (there can be several in the same scenario file...) from them.
20140111 18:42:36< fendrin_> The output of the editor in "scenario" mode is pretty much what you propose.
20140111 18:43:06< zookeeper> yeah, but i still can't open a scenario file and decide whether i want to edit the main map data, or one of the terrain masks in it
20140111 18:43:51< fendrin_> zookeeper: Please fill a feature request for that and assign it to me.
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20140111 18:47:36< fendrin_> zookeeper: What you want is a layer mode.
20140111 18:52:38< zookeeper> well except that it wouldn't have anything to do with layers...
20140111 18:53:13< fendrin_> From the editor's user's perspective.
20140111 18:54:38< zookeeper> just so that i could choose to open a scenario file and if there's multiple pieces of map data in there, it'd either allow me to choose which one to open (as pure map data) or just prompt whether i want to open all of them
20140111 18:54:39< fendrin_> The editor ui could handle masks found in the same file as the map in a similar way how painting tools handle layers.
20140111 18:55:12< zookeeper> of course the important thing would be that when saving, nothing except the edited piece of map data would be touched
20140111 18:57:47< zookeeper> i don't really recall what happened when that feature was last worked on some years ago
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20140111 19:58:59< shadowm> fendrin_: "Uf ---> Uft (Underground forest terrain) <--- this one is strange" <-- ?
20140111 19:59:56< fendrin_> It means Underground fungus terrain
20140111 20:00:00< fendrin_> my fault
20140111 20:00:33< shadowm> No, what's up with the side comment?
20140111 20:01:16< fendrin_> The side comment means: I think the encoding is strange. But with f for fungus instead of forest...
20140111 20:02:49< AI0867> fungus is underground forest
20140111 20:03:01< AI0867> notice how elves get a bonus there and dwarves don't like it much?
20140111 20:05:01< fendrin_> okay :-)
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 12 00:00:16 2014