--- Log opened Fri Jan 24 00:00:05 2014
--- Day changed Fri Jan 24 2014
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20140124 10:24:37< irker761> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth-old:master 84908f41f6fa / resources/image-localization/maps/ (10 files in 10 dirs): Added flat english map labels to aid localization. http://git.io/I-M-pQ
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20140124 17:18:39< irker096> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 04875b9104be / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/10_Saving_Inarix.cfg: SotBE S10: slight change to a message http://git.io/QWgxVA
20140124 17:18:39< irker096> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 0166f6e9acbf / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/10_Saving_Inarix.cfg: SotBE S10: have AIs target only Inarix, not all saurians http://git.io/48yLKQ
20140124 17:18:40< irker096> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master f86265035246 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/10_Saving_Inarix.cfg: SotBE S10: decrease value of villages for AI sides http://git.io/uOsx5w
20140124 17:18:41< irker096> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master e989d7e2a6a7 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/10_Saving_Inarix.cfg: SotBE S10: don't give huge unannounced gold bonus to AIs at turn 8 http://git.io/36-Eqw
20140124 17:18:42< irker096> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 03777e745bf3 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/10_Saving_Inarix.cfg: SotBE S10: adjust player's starting gold http://git.io/F-Cejg
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20140124 17:56:37< mattsc> zookeeper: hi.  I am considering to mess with the way how the AI attacks the bridge in SotBE Clash of Armies.
20140124 17:57:19< zookeeper> mattsc, okay?
20140124 17:57:31< mattsc> I'm thinking about having units move back if a stronger unit can get to the bridge.  I am also thinking about emphasizing suicide attacks (so that more units can attack the same hex).
20140124 17:58:06< zookeeper> sounds good to me, as long as gryphons don't get too difficult
20140124 17:58:10< mattsc> The are a couple technical problems with that - most importantly, you need space to retreat to.
20140124 17:58:45< mattsc> Also, I think it would help for this if we combine all three AI sides into the same side.
20140124 17:59:20< mattsc> The gryphons and mermen shouldn't be affected by this change, they need to be balanced separately.
20140124 17:59:51< zookeeper> i can't really agree with the one side thing though
20140124 18:00:08< mattsc> why not?
20140124 18:01:26< zookeeper> well, the point is that there's three different allied factions attacking, and/so there needs to be three leaders and i don't really want to use the multiple leaders per side thing
20140124 18:02:18< mattsc> I agree that there need to remain three leaders.  What do you have against the multiple leader setup?
20140124 18:03:20< zookeeper> it's... weird and unusual
20140124 18:03:36< mattsc> Right.  That's what I like about it.  ;)
20140124 18:04:26< zookeeper> regardless of what the engine can do, one side == one leader is what (almost) all the campaigns do
20140124 18:04:34< mattsc> Anyways, it's probably possible to move out of the way for a unit of another side now, but needs more work.
20140124 18:04:47< zookeeper> i don't think "breaking" that expectation for a purely technical reason makes much sense
20140124 18:05:49< mattsc> zookeeper: well, my opinion on this is that just because everybody does it doesn't mean that we have to as well.  But I am not going to argue the point, so ... okay, acknowledged.
20140124 18:05:51< zookeeper> also i don't see why it'd be a bad thing if units of different sides did tend to block each other
20140124 18:06:03< mattsc> My main question is still whether it's worth the effort to do this at all.
20140124 18:06:11< mattsc> That's a question to myself more so than to you.
20140124 18:06:34< mattsc> It would make the scenario harder if they didn't.
20140124 18:06:59< mattsc> I think that currently holding the bridge in the middle is too easy if you have a few L3's and a healer.
20140124 18:07:18< mattsc> But that's ok.
20140124 18:07:31< zookeeper> well... if it's too easy, then i'd think that one shallow water hex more on the side ought to fix that :P
20140124 18:07:44< zookeeper> or 2 if you want to make it a lot harder ;)
20140124 18:07:58< mattsc> I have considered that option - but it seems too arbitrary  :P
20140124 18:08:35< mattsc> It could appear as the result of the explosion in the previous scenario
20140124 18:09:33< zookeeper> i don't have any particular opinions on the AI behavior, it sounds good to me if units back off if a more powerful one can fill the hole, although maybe there's a danger that units would end up cycling so often that you'd get few chances to finish them off
20140124 18:10:27< mattsc> You don't need to finish them off though, the whole point of the scenario is simply to hold the northern side.
20140124 18:10:49< mattsc> Anyways, thanks for the feedback.  I just like to make the AI do somewhat unexpected things (and keep the player on the toes), but all within reason.  I might not do this at all...
20140124 18:11:31< zookeeper> yeah, but IIRC a lot of the strategy at the bridge is about whether to finish off a wounded enemy or not (because if you don't, they'll block the hex from others unless they manage to suicide)
20140124 18:13:02< mattsc> Right - what I don't like about that is that it's "taking advantage" of a particular weakness of the AI.  You couldn't do that against a human player.
20140124 18:13:25< mattsc> Just like being able to block a tunnel with an individual unit 1 XP from leveling.
20140124 18:13:45< mattsc> I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, btw, just telling you my own.
20140124 18:13:58< mattsc> We don't have to agree on everything.  :)
20140124 18:15:32< mattsc> I do agree that the AI behavior in mainline scenarios should be consistent (mostly at least).  I'll use my own campaigns to mess with the players' expectations.
20140124 18:15:49< zookeeper> well if i was playing the other side, i might rather suicide my medium-hitter unit so i could follow it up with a hard-hitter immediately, rather than switch places. although if the AI still likes to suicide, maybe it'd be the former anyway?
20140124 18:16:08< zookeeper> s/be/do
20140124 18:16:38< zookeeper> i mean i don't have anything against your idea, go ahead as far as i'm concerned
20140124 18:18:13< mattsc> Well, some of this would be quite a bit of effort.  If I had nothing else to do, I'd say I do it.  The way it is, I don't know ...
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20140124 18:21:07< mattsc> Maybe this is something to be left for 1.14  :)
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20140124 18:30:00< cib0> A lot of the "challenging" campaigns seem to be based on abusing the AI's weaknesses in one way or the other.
20140124 18:32:50< mattsc> cib0: yeah.  On a related note, what I found when I started working on my own MP AIs is that the better MP folks are very good at homing in on the single biggest weakness and exploiting it.  Which doesn't help that much when you need people to tell you how your work-in-progress AI is doing.  :)
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20140124 22:12:43< shadowm> I thought I said to ask me before adding anything to resources/.
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20140124 22:14:39< zookeeper> shadowm, you did? :x
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20140124 22:15:28< zookeeper> now that you mention it i might vaguely recall something about... something like that
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 25 00:00:40 2014