--- Log opened Sat Jan 18 00:00:01 2014
--- Day changed Sat Jan 18 2014
20140118 00:00:01< Zerovirus> uhhh... define 'starcraft direction'? like, are you talking about the gameplay or the fluff?
20140118 00:00:07< fabi> I mean, buildings and resource gathering are no problem from a coder's point of view.
20140118 00:00:13< fabi> Both.
20140118 00:00:31< Zerovirus> man, if we could pull off a complete starcraft-like structural system i would be SO happy
20140118 00:00:46< Zerovirus> if that's at all possible i'd definitely angle for that
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20140118 00:01:23< fabi> With that gas and the crystals being the resources?
20140118 00:01:25< _8680_> What would “a complete starcraft-like structural system” entail?
20140118 00:01:33< fabi> ^
20140118 00:01:51< Zerovirus> well, basically just: decouplement from the concept of 'leaders recruit at keeps'
20140118 00:01:56< vultraz> Buildings with multiple functions, one of which is spawning creeps, I guess
20140118 00:01:59< Zerovirus> like, you spawn with a leader
20140118 00:02:05< Zerovirus> which you can right-click and deploy into a building
20140118 00:02:11< _8680_> I some old unfinished Lua stuff that was going to have resources etc that I could dig out.
20140118 00:02:21< Zerovirus> which then converts the tile on it into a keep and the adjacent tiles into castles
20140118 00:02:23< _8680_> s/I/I have/
20140118 00:02:39< Zerovirus> at which point you can recruit more (expensive) units to make more keeps
20140118 00:02:51< Zerovirus> (also, would it be possible to completely change the gold-gathering mechanism of the game)
20140118 00:03:06< _8680_> I think I had building buildings from the context menu implemented.
20140118 00:03:07< Zerovirus> (like, make it so that a village only offers gold if there's a unit of your alignment on that village at the start of your turn)
20140118 00:03:38< Zerovirus> (we obviously can't micromanage miners going from the base to the village, but forcing the player to commit a portion of their economy to keeping their village base staffed with resource-suppliers would also serve the same strategic role in a turn-based game)
20140118 00:03:58< _8680_> That would be easy enough, by taking away the game-given gold as we wish.
20140118 00:03:59< Zerovirus> so each faction would have a super-useless super-cheap lv0 good for nothing but camping out on a village and churning out gold
20140118 00:04:22< Zerovirus> and i guess each factino would also have, like, one or two buildings
20140118 00:04:35< _8680_> Or continually de-capturing unattended villages.
20140118 00:04:44< Zerovirus> i'm not sure i'd be able to balance extremely complex building hierarchies, but allowing buildings means that we can really get interesting ideas
20140118 00:04:54< Zerovirus> (i am having a lot of ideas now that the idea of buildings in this era is a thing)
20140118 00:05:09< fabi> We could go away from the village and gold system at all.
20140118 00:05:32< fabi> Meaning that villages are no longer a resource gathering thing in the game.
20140118 00:05:55< Zerovirus> sure, villages as just a healing- thing could work, or- is there a way to automate, like, removing villages as a whole from a game when a certain era file is loaded up?
20140118 00:06:21< _8680_> I could remove all villages in a Lua global event.
20140118 00:06:37< fabi> Yes, there are some different solutions to it.
20140118 00:07:31< Zerovirus> sweet, then we are SET.
20140118 00:07:36< fabi> The question is if the resources we need for our game mechanics can be deployed automatically. 
20140118 00:08:09< fabi> We might end with an era that also demands it's own maps/scenarios.
20140118 00:08:18< Zerovirus> it's obviously impractical to go over the existing maps and add in custom resources one by one, yeah
20140118 00:08:19< fabi> "SET"?
20140118 00:08:37< Zerovirus> colloquial for 'prepared' :V
20140118 00:08:43< fabi> ah
20140118 00:08:50< Zerovirus> or if you want, Super Excited Time?
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20140118 00:08:53< Zerovirus> i'm not good at acronyms
20140118 00:09:57< Zerovirus> oops my laptop is dying
20140118 00:09:59< fabi> I can mimic the Starcraft gas source and crystal field stuff.
20140118 00:10:00< Zerovirus> i must find a charger
20140118 00:11:04< _8680_> I can process maps pretty much however you want in Lua global events — e.g., changing terrain or placing items.
20140118 00:12:05< _8680_> What would the mechanics for obtaining resources for construction be?
20140118 00:12:17< fabi> I am not sure if we really should introduce a "worker" unit. Which travels between source of resource and home.
20140118 00:12:26< Zerovirus> it oughtn't have to
20140118 00:12:33< Zerovirus> a worker unit would just stay on the resource it's harvesting
20140118 00:12:40< Zerovirus> and automatically harvest at the start of a turn
20140118 00:12:48< Zerovirus> if it dies, you need to send a new worker, or abandon that harvest site
20140118 00:12:59< fabi> So it is pretty much like villages.
20140118 00:13:06< fabi> But you need a unit to be present.
20140118 00:13:15< fabi> And it needs to be a special one.
20140118 00:13:16< Zerovirus> sort of; imma talk gamedesign a bit
20140118 00:13:28< Zerovirus> basically, a worker exists for one reason: forcing the player to balance their economy
20140118 00:13:38< Zerovirus> like, you can't devote 100% of your starting resources to soldiers because then you wouldn't have any income
20140118 00:13:55< Zerovirus> and you can't devote 100% of your resources to workers because if an enemy defects and rushes you with more soldiers, then you've lost the game from the start
20140118 00:14:16< Zerovirus> so there's a balance-point between workers, which in game-design terms helps slow down the escalation of units and also provides a secondary strategic objective beyond 'kill the base'
20140118 00:14:40< Zerovirus> like, if you have to make sure you always have workers, you won't be able to spend all your money on fighters which means that you'll have to spend your actual fighting resources more carefully
20140118 00:15:07< Zerovirus> this is what they mean in starcraft when they say that fights set back your economy- if your worker or fighter ratio fall out of the appropriate ratio, you either have to waste time buying more fighters and less workers and thus expand your infrastructure less
20140118 00:15:14< Zerovirus> or you have to buy more workers just to catch up with the other guy
20140118 00:15:40< Zerovirus> wesnoth obviously doesn't have any of this because capturing villages is automatic and doesn't require that you invest any 'initial' capital
20140118 00:15:50< Zerovirus> to put wesnoth into starcraft-theory terms, all wesnoth units are also workers
20140118 00:15:58< Zerovirus> meaning that you can have simultaneous 100% workers AND 100% fighters
20140118 00:16:06< Zerovirus> meaning that all of the stuff i said doesn't even apply to wesnoth
20140118 00:16:45< fabi> Okay, so we change that.
20140118 00:16:56< fabi> Introducing at least one unit per side which is a worker.
20140118 00:17:07< Zerovirus> yup
20140118 00:17:10< fabi> Or even a worker for each resource we offer.
20140118 00:17:22< fabi> Like miner for mines.
20140118 00:17:42< Zerovirus> maybe, though i'd hesitate to introduce more than 4 resources
20140118 00:17:50< Zerovirus> right now i'm figuring that we're going to stick with 3 at the most
20140118 00:18:47< fabi> The worker unit might have some special features beside the mining (like building buildings) but is in general not a good combat unit.
20140118 00:18:49< Zerovirus> having a whole lot of resources introduces a lot of myriad balance issues i'm not sure i want to really work around, mostly because i don't know how it'd work out and there'd be another whole set of trial and error before we figured out how to implement it balancedly
20140118 00:19:23< fabi> Yes, there is no need to have a dozen of different resources.
20140118 00:19:30< fabi> Which resources have you thought of?
20140118 00:20:29< Zerovirus> metal/lumber/(is there a good one-word term for 'heavy construction materials'), magic/mana/phlibotinum crystals, and gold/manpower/somethign else that represents 'population'
20140118 00:21:01< Zerovirus> it doesn't have to be, like, exactly those things
20140118 00:21:07< Zerovirus> just one material that mechanical units tend to rely on
20140118 00:21:10< Zerovirus> one material that magical units rely on
20140118 00:21:15< Zerovirus> and one material that biological units rely on
20140118 00:21:38< Zerovirus> (intersections between them are possible, like it's not like each material is exclusively used for that type- just frequently for that type)
20140118 00:22:19< _8680_> Is “biological units” specifically the Flesh Contagion, or does it include the Crimson Legion?
20140118 00:22:31< Zerovirus> yeah it includes legion
20140118 00:22:35< Zerovirus> it also includes jade-alchemicals
20140118 00:22:42< Zerovirus> at least the actually fleshy ones
20140118 00:22:49< Zerovirus> it's basically anything that's not a robot or spirit
20140118 00:23:03< fabi> food
20140118 00:23:15< fabi> biolagical units rely on food.
20140118 00:23:37< fabi> Not only to buy/grow/breed them.
20140118 00:23:42< fabi> But also to maintain them.
20140118 00:23:44< Zerovirus> note to self: balancing mechanicals will be difficult if steelhive is all mechanical, so i oughta do something bout that
20140118 00:24:10< fabi> So food could be a resource, one that also demands upkeep.
20140118 00:24:19< Zerovirus> sure
20140118 00:24:36< fabi> Provided by farms.
20140118 00:24:42< Zerovirus> (actually, is it possible to make Mechanical, Magical, and Biological dummy-traits instead of actual Races)
20140118 00:24:49< Zerovirus> (so units can be dual-typed or even many-typed)
20140118 00:24:58< Zerovirus> (and so attacks can, say, deal more damage to units with that trait or less depending)
20140118 00:25:03< fabi> Maybe the not zerg can also use villages to produce food, they just harvest the inhabitants.
20140118 00:25:14< Zerovirus> how gruesome~
20140118 00:25:25< fabi> :-)
20140118 00:25:40< Zerovirus> anyways, a bit more on other factions, if you're interested:
20140118 00:25:46< _8680_> It would be possible to use traits like that, but filtering on them constantly could be slow.
20140118 00:25:54< Zerovirus> steelhive you guys may or may not already know, they're basically /actually/ like the zerg in that they want to assimilate everything
20140118 00:25:57< Zerovirus> so really they're the borg
20140118 00:26:17< _8680_> (“constantly”, or rather on each attack.)
20140118 00:26:45< Zerovirus> eh, then we can balance around the three types as exclusive races
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20140118 00:27:12< Zerovirus> i'll just reduce the prominence of things that do tons of damage to mechanicals like how right now we restrain how many units have Arcane damage
20140118 00:27:17< _8680_> I don’t know how slow it is; it might not really matter.
20140118 00:27:45< Zerovirus> continuing on other factions- the jade alchemicals are basically soul-powered immortal transhumanists- in-game this probably translates to becoming stronger (gaining more xp?) by killing biological units and eating their souls
20140118 00:28:33< Zerovirus> the crimson legion- okay i've not really got much of a gameplay quirk, but as far as a setting goes they're like a blend of feudal japan and ancient rome
20140118 00:29:15< Zerovirus> very martially oriented, very melee-damage-centric; they acknowledge that archery is necessary for military success, but consider archery also less morally satisfying than martial force of arms, so their archers have a tradition of wearing masks to cover their faces
20140118 00:29:54< Zerovirus> "if you kill without seeing the face of your opponent, then neither can those close to you see your face" blah blah cultural shame.
20140118 00:29:58< Zerovirus> (that's about all i've got for them)
20140118 00:33:16< fabi> Zerovirus: That is fine. 
20140118 00:33:29< fabi> Zerovirus: The project looks promising.
20140118 00:35:00< Zerovirus> thanks :D
20140118 00:35:06< _8680_> Zerovirus: Do you have a name for this era?
20140118 00:35:37< Zerovirus> a prelim name right now is "Age of Artifice", mostly due to the notion that artificial devices like machines and robots and such play a large role in the game-balance
20140118 00:35:40< fabi> Zerovirus: Please allow me to tell you what I have done so far for the not-zerg and see if it matches your expectations.
20140118 00:36:08< Zerovirus> i'm thinking about changing it to something that matches a metaplot more once i figure out just how i want to integrate all these ecological/cultural clashes into the backstory
20140118 00:36:12< Zerovirus> fabi: go for it
20140118 00:36:32< fabi> Okay.
20140118 00:36:46< Zerovirus> (though: i've got to go catch a movie soon so, no guarantees on how long i'm staying around)
20140118 00:37:04< fabi> I gave the faction a working name, "Flesh Hive".
20140118 00:37:32< fabi> And the era is named "Age of Hives"
20140118 00:37:40< _8680_> What was wrong with Flesh Contagion?
20140118 00:37:40< Zerovirus> probably going to change that in the future, can't have every faction be named something-hive after all :P
20140118 00:37:45< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 1851acadd252 / units/faeries/ (Dark_Night_Nymph.cfg Dark_Nightshade_Fire.cfg Guardian_of_Darkness_Anya.cfg): Color-shift Anya's cold ranged attack animation http://git.io/TG1Lhw
20140118 00:37:48< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 2f9c6069e4a2 / units/faeries/Guardian_of_Darkness_Anya.cfg: Additional halo effects for L6 Anya's noctum attack animation http://git.io/BPpSww
20140118 00:38:00< fabi> Flesh Contation is fine.
20140118 00:38:12< fabi> We can change this things easily. 
20140118 00:38:19< Zerovirus> Flesh Contagion is also a WIP name, like i came up with that back when i hadn't decided that these guys weren't going to be actually zerg, just fyi
20140118 00:38:22< fabi> I just needed ids and names to work with.
20140118 00:38:56< fabi> The player can only produce eggs.
20140118 00:39:19< fabi> Those eggs hedge into a level 0 larvae form.
20140118 00:40:00< fabi> As long as those larvae find food they gain xp, even without fight.
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20140118 00:40:29< fabi> So you have a constant spam of weak level0 units.
20140118 00:40:49< Zerovirus> wow, that sounds pretty cool
20140118 00:40:59< Zerovirus> (this faction is going to totally be on a balancing-plane of its own isn't it)
20140118 00:41:10< Zerovirus> (we are breaking so many wesnoth-balancing wisdom-rules)
20140118 00:41:28< fabi> When the larvae form gets enough xp it will advance into a cocoon.
20140118 00:41:34< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 3547810dfaae / about.cfg: 8 < A http://git.io/S53w2w
20140118 00:41:52< fabi> This cocoon, like the edge gains xp just by sitting around.
20140118 00:42:11< fabi> (Well, maybe if only on creep or when a nearby breeder unit is around)
20140118 00:42:57< fabi> From the cocoon the level 1 young adult non-zerg hatches.
20140118 00:43:12< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 99a4da38aa42 / about.cfg: Add mattsc to credits http://git.io/CKz0JQ
20140118 00:43:17< bumbadadabum> eh
20140118 00:43:40< bumbadadabum> having cocoons won't work too well in wesnoth
20140118 00:43:55< bumbadadabum> having a unit that's a sitting duck for an X amount of time
20140118 00:44:45< Zerovirus> yeah, i'm thinking the same thing here
20140118 00:45:03< Zerovirus> there ought to be at least some units which immediately come into play, otherwise you're a sitting duck like bumb said
20140118 00:45:29< Zerovirus> plus: the not-zerg guys aren't, like, all insects or anything, they've just got alien biology which coincidentally makes them look really gross
20140118 00:45:33< fabi> Well, you have plenty of level0 ones.
20140118 00:45:45< Zerovirus> there's no reason for every one of them to go through a cocoon phase, they're not even all the same species
20140118 00:46:10< Zerovirus> like, this faction's made up of a haphazard alliance of things from the same ecosystem trying to repel outside invaders exploiting their home's resources and enslaving/killing their people :V
20140118 00:46:25< Zerovirus> (as far as the story goes they'd be the good guys if they didn't happen to also eat villagers for sustenance)
20140118 00:47:23< Zerovirus> still man this project is really going to go places :V
20140118 00:47:32< Zerovirus> i await anxiously what classic rules of wesnoth design we break in the future
20140118 00:47:35< Zerovirus> for now i gotta go catch my movie though
20140118 00:47:36< bumbadadabum> it's not nothing
20140118 00:47:39< Zerovirus> see you guys later
20140118 00:47:44< bumbadadabum> have fun
20140118 00:47:52< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 84b7313b973b / changelog: Update changelog http://git.io/dcrbpQ
20140118 00:48:08< fabi> Zerovirus: bye :-)
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20140118 02:07:48< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 663a15064f25 / episode3/scenarios/08D_Destiny_part_2.cfg: E3S8D: Capture the southwesternmost village for side 2 on prestart http://git.io/QuMSkQ
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20140118 04:53:58< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master aa5eece3b8bf / units/shaxthal/Drone_Custodian.cfg: Nothing wrong with flipping the Custodian Drone turnways during its death http://git.io/i_mz4w
20140118 04:54:01< irker287> shikadilord: Ignacio R. Morelle After_the_Storm:master 6459c19b77bc / macros/unit-utils.cfg: E3S8C, E3S9, E3S10: Spawn Fire Guardians facing away from Elyssa http://git.io/uD1blw
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20140118 07:41:04< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 121bb4b / : http://git.io/d-4k9w
20140118 07:41:05< irker287> zerovirus-era: Create branch `gh-pages`.
20140118 07:41:06< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 412b85f / logs/irc/main.css: http://git.io/EJSP5g
20140118 07:41:07< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log stylesheet.
20140118 07:41:08< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 8598b11 / logs/irc/2014-01-17-1.xhtml: http://git.io/IFMFkA
20140118 07:41:09< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log of 2014-01-17 meeting.
20140118 07:42:18< _8680_> …I’d forgotten I’d set up the Irker hook already.
20140118 07:43:23< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :master * 1ed2a3e / : http://git.io/eTBhuQ
20140118 07:43:24< irker287> zerovirus-era: Initialize repository.
20140118 07:49:21< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 068cbb2 / index.xhtml,main.css: http://git.io/9o453Q
20140118 07:49:22< irker287> zerovirus-era: Copy root index page from 8573.github.io.
20140118 07:50:37< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * c35d830 / index.xhtml,main.css: http://git.io/P4MCxQ
20140118 07:50:38< irker287> zerovirus-era: Copy root index page from 8573.github.io.
20140118 08:00:10< vultraz> _8680_: what...are you doing?
20140118 08:01:35< _8680_> I was trying to publish the log of the recent discussion of Zerovirus’s era to GitHub Pages, for convenient future reference.
20140118 08:04:03< vultraz> Why not just file it away in dropbox
20140118 08:04:34< _8680_> Can Dropbox be Git-pushed to?
20140118 08:05:09< vultraz> What?
20140118 08:05:14< vultraz> no
20140118 08:06:49< _8680_> It seems to me that files in Dropbox tend to link-rot, especially with one’s remote Dropbox files being (I think?) synchronized with one’s local files, which could easily be moved or deleted.
20140118 08:07:38< _8680_> Of course it’s still perfectly possible for me to move files around (or delete them) in a Git repository, but it’s less likely and more recoverable.
20140118 08:10:15< vultraz> Are you really a person
20140118 08:10:41< vultraz> You seem more thorough and precise than any average person
20140118 08:10:58< vultraz> Also you've told us nothing about yourself
20140118 08:11:08< vultraz> In the over a year you've been on IRC
20140118 08:12:01< _8680_> Besides, it would be more of a hassle for me to use Dropbox; whereas using GitHub Pages is easy for me.
20140118 08:12:09< vultraz> For all we know you could be Snowden
20140118 08:14:16< _8680_> I am not.
20140118 08:14:34< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 8e088dd / index.xhtml,main.css: http://git.io/nbxfIw
20140118 08:14:35< irker287> zerovirus-era: Copy root index page from 8573.github.io.
20140118 08:14:36< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 68d87c6 / logs/irc/main.css: http://git.io/FClo3A
20140118 08:14:37< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log stylesheet.
20140118 08:14:38< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 3653a6c / logs/irc/2014-01-17-1.xhtml: http://git.io/FT5udQ
20140118 08:14:39< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log of 2014-01-17 meeting.
20140118 08:15:00< _8680_> Maybe I should turn off that Irker hook for the gh-pages branch.
20140118 08:16:05< vultraz> Would you tell us if you were
20140118 08:16:59-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev
20140118 08:22:33< _8680_> I categorically deny being any former employee or contractor of any government agency.
20140118 08:22:41< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :master * 284a077 / logs/irc/main.css: http://git.io/BAPw_w
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20140118 08:22:43< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :master * 7efd21a / logs/irc/2014-01-17-1.xhtml: http://git.io/6lG_GA
20140118 08:22:44< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log of 2014-01-17 meeting.
20140118 08:27:04< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :master * 0ac268b / logs/irc/main.css: http://git.io/B30ysQ
20140118 08:27:05< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log stylesheet.
20140118 08:27:06< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :master * ab285be / logs/irc/2014-01-17-1.xhtml: http://git.io/Ghjldg
20140118 08:27:07< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log of 2014-01-17 meeting.
20140118 08:41:44< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 0aa4dc2 / logs/irc/main.css: https://github.com/8680-wesnoth/zerovirus-era/commit/0aa4dc2707c2e3476e12342066b9e8e5e87b8684
20140118 08:41:45< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log stylesheet.
20140118 08:41:46< irker287> zerovirus-era: 8573 :gh-pages * 972da59 / logs/irc/2014-01-17-1.xhtml: http://git.io/IP6ATA
20140118 08:41:47< irker287> zerovirus-era: Add IRC log of 2014-01-17 meeting.
20140118 08:41:55 * _8680_ goes off to sleep.
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 19 00:00:08 2014