--- Log opened Sun Feb 02 00:00:12 2014
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20140202 00:17:39< mattsc> zookeeper: it all seems to work.  Thanks.
20140202 00:17:50< zookeeper> cool
20140202 00:18:09< mattsc> Did you indicate somewhere that it does not work for sides without leader?
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20140202 00:22:45< zookeeper> oops, i forgot that
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20140202 00:35:29< mattsc> zookeeper: do you have an opinion on whether HttT Crossroads would benefit from recruitment gold saving?
20140202 00:36:26< zookeeper> off the top of my head it sounds like a good idea, but that'd require playtesting to make sure
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20140202 00:38:32< mattsc> Ah, crap.  I was going to check out my last replay of that scenario, but it's one of those that had that crash bug that was present for several releases.
20140202 00:41:36< mattsc> I'll just have to play it again, I guess...
20140202 00:41:58< mattsc> Are there other scenarios anyone can think of that should be checked for (enabling) gold saving.
20140202 00:42:19< mattsc> As long as they are not from NR, I'm willing to check them out.  :P
20140202 00:43:47< zookeeper> so basically what it does is make the AI not spend all gold during the first turns, but rather recruit more steadily throughout the scenario?
20140202 00:44:29< mattsc> Yes (with some nuances).
20140202 00:44:41< zookeeper> i'm thinking test of the clans (HttT)
20140202 00:45:15< mattsc> Essentially, you set two thresholds of unit gold ratios (multiplied by HP).  Once the AI/player ratio is higher than the 'begin' value, the AI starts gold saving.
20140202 00:45:26< mattsc> Once it drops below the 'end' value, recruiting is resumed.
20140202 00:46:00< mattsc> Okay, I'll check that out too (sometime before 1.12.0)
20140202 00:49:45< zookeeper> maybe not the closest enemy since the player will probably usually rush them, but if the others still tend to perform an initial mass charge with lancers and other heavy-hitters then maybe it'd be nicer with gold saving
20140202 00:50:36< mattsc> okay - I'll keep that in mind.
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20140202 00:52:24< mattsc> Btw, out of the 9 scenario of SotBE I balanced while gold saving was the default, one of them benefitted from gold saving, in two it had a negative effect, and the other 6 were unaffected.
20140202 00:52:46< mattsc> Small number statistics that don't mean much, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
20140202 00:53:21< zookeeper> mm-hmh
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20140202 00:53:33 * zookeeper stumbles off to sleep
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20140202 00:55:27< mattsc_> sleep sounds good - even though you're 10 hours ahead of me, I believe.
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20140202 01:19:19< mattsc> Checked out Crossroads and I think I agree with anonymissimus on this one.  I think it gets easier with gold saving enabled which should therefore not be done.
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20140202 01:21:10< mattsc> I think the reason that it was harder with gold saving for taptap is that he played it as a no-recall challenge, but that's a rather unusual way of doing it.  We should balance things for "normal" playing style (whatever that means).
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20140202 02:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 216 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140202 08:40:12< Ivanovic> good morning from FOSDEM
20140202 08:40:15< Ivanovic> ehm, WESDEM
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20140202 09:17:10< zookeeper> mattsc, have you seen any scenario made _harder_ by gold saving? i'd think that surviving an initial mass charge is practically always harder than a more steady opposition
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20140202 09:17:22< irker186> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master d07af9a0ada4 / src/format_time_summary.hpp: Include ctime for time_t (bug #21266) http://git.io/ZDDQXQ
20140202 09:18:10< zookeeper> (and by harder i mean harder to survive with acceptable casualties)
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20140202 09:21:45< irker186> wesnoth: Adrián Chaves Fernández (Gallaecio) wesnoth-old:master 19fa65183512 / data/core/units/khalifate/Jundi.cfg: Fixed a typo: “[…], M-” → “[…]. M-” http://git.io/jJEsUg
20140202 09:21:47< irker186> wesnoth: Adrián Chaves Fernández (Gallaecio) wesnoth-old:master 745ef11893fc / po/ (12 files in 12 dirs): Updated the Galician (gl) translation http://git.io/9kfsNA
20140202 09:21:49< irker186> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master 5ef796948b75 / / (13 files in 13 dirs): Merge pull request #92 from Gallaecio/gl http://git.io/QlbSjg
20140202 09:24:56-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: asheviere (old server) will be shut down on 16th Feb 2014, migrate all stuff, cf dev mailinglist | 216 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140202 09:25:12< shadowm> Uh.
20140202 09:25:30< Ivanovic> shadowm: noy just told me we pay 184$ a month for the old server
20140202 09:25:37< shadowm> Yes, I am aware of that.
20140202 09:25:43< Ivanovic> for 3 month it has just been running for the email
20140202 09:25:57< shadowm> But just setting a topic isn't going to make the relevant people magically have time to set that up.
20140202 09:25:58< Ivanovic> IMO (the others here at fosdem share the opinion) this is wasted money
20140202 09:26:14< Ivanovic> shadowm: it will be gone then, bad luck, no more @wesnoth email
20140202 09:26:39< Ivanovic> we do not have the money available to waste more than 2000$ a year for 50 mails
20140202 09:26:47< shadowm> Well, losing the ability to receive mail has rather grave implications.
20140202 09:26:50< AI0867|FOSDEM> I suppose I can set it up. I poke soliton or rhonda for a VM, right?
20140202 09:27:09< shadowm> That is, forums@ and admins@ need to be set up at the very minimum.
20140202 09:27:14< shadowm> AI0867|FOSDEM: Yes.
20140202 09:27:56< shadowm> To be perfectly honest with you, the only reason I haven't tried doing so myself is that I understand jack shit about email at both levels (server-side and client-side).
20140202 09:28:38< shadowm> And I wouldn't want to be responsible for screwing something up in that regard and turning wesnoth.org into a spam relay.
20140202 09:28:42< shadowm> More than it already is, anyway.
20140202 09:29:06< AI0867|FOSDEM> my experience is ai0867.net's mail with its own mailinglists
20140202 09:29:30< noy> just confirmed it, 184 per month
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20140202 09:33:17< shadowm> Well, admins@ at the very minimum. I have had a backup plan for the forums email for a while.
20140202 09:33:24< shadowm> But admin@ receives email from e.g. hetzner.
20140202 09:35:03< AI0867|FOSDEM> yeah, we receive github mail there too
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20140202 09:54:23< Ivanovic> btw we are currently talking about the plans for the next release and the stable release...
20140202 09:54:49< Ivanovic> our discussion progress can be monitored on the wiki: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2014
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20140202 09:56:01< shadowm> If the SDL 2 port will not take forever like GUI2 then that sounds really exciting.
20140202 09:57:34< shadowm> I wonder what is going to be discussed about the add-ons server while excluding me as usual? :p
20140202 09:59:19< shadowm> If the next development cycle is going to take as long as 1.11.x, the Debian stable argument against SDL 2 isn't very relevant. jessie is going to be frozen this November IIRC, and I'd expect it to be released before 2016 (assuming Wesnoth 1.14.0 on 1016).
20140202 09:59:46< shadowm> 2016.
20140202 10:03:30< Ivanovic> shadowm: IIRC it was offered to you that wesnoth inc helps getting you to brussels...
20140202 10:03:31< Ivanovic> ;)
20140202 10:05:24< shadowm> Maybe you could also discuss how to make better use of our communication channels!
20140202 10:06:10< shadowm> E.g. last year we didn't even have GSoC org acceptance and GSoC results announcements.
20140202 10:07:22< shadowm> (Yes, if I were there I probably would be talking about the subject of communication and PR all day long.)
20140202 10:12:36< Ivanovic> shadowm: you can read up on the addon server now
20140202 10:12:54< Ivanovic> the stuff written there will later on also be sent to the mailing list (under separate topics) for further discussion
20140202 10:16:30< vultraz_old> I'd be quite interested to see what comes up RE GUI2/OpenGL
20140202 10:16:36< shadowm> I believe having a separate add-ons server for new add-ons was discussed in the forums a few months ago and the general consensus was that this would discourage people from having a look at them.
20140202 10:16:49< Ivanovic> shadowm: this is just a braindump of ideas
20140202 10:17:00< Ivanovic> as you can see some of the stuff contradicts the other
20140202 10:17:14< Ivanovic> and yeah, we came to the conclusion that 2 servers are bad, too
20140202 10:20:12< shadowm> Now, theoretically, the version number could be used as a criterion, but the notion that ( 0.x == incomplete, 1.x == complete ) appears to be too much for both users and creators to grasp.
20140202 10:20:55< shadowm> The PblWML documentation page in the wiki already provides that much as advice, but no idea how many people actually heed it.
20140202 10:21:32< vultraz_old> How much good with a rating system do? Addons like LotI are of...questionable quality yet very popular
20140202 10:21:35< shadowm> Uh, no, it doesn't actually advise on the numbers.
20140202 10:22:00< shadowm> It only roughly explains the version_info comparison operators' semantics.
20140202 10:22:26< shadowm> vultraz_old: Well, from an objective standpoint, it is at least decent.
20140202 10:22:44< shadowm> The bar for 'decent' has to be set a bit lower than usual for that purpose, though.
20140202 10:23:35< vultraz_old> I'm pretty sure the bar for "decent" is quite low when anyone can upload something
20140202 10:23:45< shadowm> The thing is that deciding what 'decent' means for add-ons created by people from every corner of the world in their free time (meaning they may not be professional English writers or pixel/portrait artists) is not trivial.
20140202 10:24:02< vultraz_old> ^
20140202 10:24:30< shadowm> We don't want to discriminate against ESL speakers or frankensteiners for obvious reasons.
20140202 10:25:49< vultraz_old> True. My own measure of "best" is an addon with good art, prose, clean, well-optimized code, etc. Those are very rare, however. Then we have addons such as SXRPG which have lower-quality prose and code, but great gameplay
20140202 10:25:53< Ivanovic> more content on the page...
20140202 10:26:01< shadowm> The fact that most of us can't draw portraits means that having portraits shouldn't be a criterion for completeness or quality either.
20140202 10:26:31< shadowm> vultraz_old: Ageless_Era is also a ridiculously popular add-on.
20140202 10:26:58< vultraz_old> I also used to be an Ageless fan, simply because of the Chaos Magnus
20140202 10:27:18< shadowm> You know what my opinion on it is, though.
20140202 10:27:22< vultraz_old> Yes
20140202 10:27:55< vultraz_old> So it would get a "good" rating from many people
20140202 10:28:33< vultraz_old> I guess we have to decide what we want the rating to represent, especially since everyone has their own subjective measures of good-ness
20140202 10:29:06< Ivanovic> why do we not want the ratings depend on what the users like?
20140202 10:29:19< Ivanovic> if there are many users who "like" content, then they like it and can show this to others
20140202 10:29:28< Ivanovic> what does it matter what *we* think about the content?
20140202 10:30:12< vultraz_old> That's a point
20140202 10:30:21< shadowm> A native English speaker (or someone who actually cares about good prose like me) may find an add-on with great gameplay and horrible writing less worthwhile than someone who only barely speaks English.
20140202 10:30:37< Ivanovic> then you are one of the people who dislike the addon
20140202 10:30:39< Ivanovic> and?
20140202 10:30:57< Ivanovic> that is why there are usually low *and* high ratings for content based on preference
20140202 10:31:41< vultraz_old> I think a Like/Dislike button would be best, in that regard, so we don't have to deal with subjective star ratings.
20140202 10:32:08< shadowm_desktop> Wow, I'm lagging there.
20140202 10:32:31< Ivanovic> and if we had some "recommended by the team" thing it could also help to highlight stuff
20140202 10:32:54< Ivanovic> maybe, when talking about "more news" we could start some "UMC of the month" post
20140202 10:32:55< Ivanovic> ;)
20140202 10:33:03< shadowm_desktop> I had written about a potential alternative.
20140202 10:33:13< vultraz_old> That would be nice, but it could lead to some people calling bias, especially if the addons in question are made by devs
20140202 10:33:14< shadowm_desktop> 07:30:44 <shadowm> But guess what the native:foreign English speaker ratio is in the world. :p
20140202 10:33:21< shadowm_desktop> 07:31:29 <shadowm> Maybe the rating system could actually be broken down into multiple aspects.
20140202 10:33:31< shadowm_desktop> <not sent yet> <shadowm> Gameplay, writing, general art, portrait art.
20140202 10:34:03< shadowm_desktop> Then present the average of those ratings by default, and allow the user to see the individual ratings in detail as they need.
20140202 10:34:41< Ivanovic> shadowm_desktop, vultraz_old: please make sure to gather this information and send it to the ML
20140202 10:34:49< Ivanovic> it would be a shame if it was lost deep in the logs!
20140202 10:35:20< shadowm_desktop> I don't know about "UMC of the month", but I had been thinking some time ago about having "developer of the month" forum posts with informal interviews to members of the team to encourage audience participation.
20140202 10:35:23< vultraz_old> shadowm_desktop: isn't that what the umc rating wiki page attempted to do?
20140202 10:35:48< shadowm_desktop> vultraz_old: Yes.
20140202 10:36:30< shadowm_desktop> But the wiki platform (and this is not just because of the lack of unique w.o logins, no) doesn't really encourage contributions.
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20140202 10:37:13< vultraz_old> True. Would the addons rating system include an option for reviews?
20140202 10:38:15< shadowm_desktop> Maybe by 'trusted' people (i.e. people in groups >= Forum Regulars in the forums), but there's no need to make ratings and reviews one and the same IMO.
20140202 10:38:20< vultraz_old> (That might not be a very good idea, though. Well written ones could get lost in a slog of ones by non-english speakers)
20140202 10:38:49< shadowm_desktop> (If we talk about forums integration, creating new dedicated groups is never out of the question.)
20140202 10:38:57< vultraz_old> shadowm: wouldn't that involve forum integration
20140202 10:39:29< shadowm> Yeah.
20140202 10:39:49< vultraz_old> I take it that wouldn't be simple
20140202 10:40:45< shadowm> Add MySQL support (which wesnothd already has), teach campaignd or its replacement to read from a specific forum section, job well done I think?
20140202 10:40:58-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: irker186, knotwork
20140202 10:41:39< shadowm> Well, the tricky part would be deciding how to pair add-ons with thread ids.
20140202 10:42:06< vultraz_old> How far would it be used, then. Just for ratings, or public in-game profiles?
20140202 10:42:34< shadowm> Unless it was done manually, in that case it wouldn't be tricky, but it wouldn't scale well in terms of human power required over time.
20140202 10:42:51< shadowm> Since only authorized members would be able to post reviews in that forum section.
20140202 10:43:14< shadowm> And a wholly separate group is in charge of operating the add-ons server.
20140202 10:43:31< shadowm> vultraz_old: Oh no, I was talking about reviews.
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20140202 10:45:24< vultraz_old> Wait, are you saying each addon would have an automatically generated thread in that section?
20140202 10:45:31< shadowm> Rating add-ons could either be the responsibility of every add-ons server client (meaning: no authentication, infinite potential for manual or scripted forms of abuse), or... you could add forums authentication support to the add-ons client and server and then require people to be in an authorized group for rating.
20140202 10:45:36< shadowm> vultraz_old: No.
20140202 10:45:58< shadowm> Ideally not. I wouldn't want people to DoS the forums through campaignd/its replacement.
20140202 10:46:26< shadowm> Uploading a bazillion 0-byte add-ons is far too easy.
20140202 10:46:32< vultraz_old> ouch
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20140202 10:47:24< vultraz_old> Well...IMO ratings would be open to anyone. Reviews could be group-restricted
20140202 10:48:08< vultraz_old> Or just give users an option to link to a feedback thread on their ow
20140202 10:48:08< shadowm> "(meaning: no authentication, infinite potential for manual or scripted forms of abuse)"
20140202 10:48:09< vultraz_old> own*
20140202 10:48:23< shadowm> We already have the feedback thread option.
20140202 10:48:31< vultraz_old> shadowm: I meant anyone on the forums
20140202 10:48:35< shadowm> Thanks to a really charitative person, I don't know them.
20140202 10:48:46< shadowm> *charitable
20140202 10:49:17< shadowm> vultraz_old: Yeah, that could work too.
20140202 10:49:23< vultraz_old> Forum auth, but not requiring a specific group to rate
20140202 10:50:26< shadowm> Now, if forums integration is too much of a hassle, an alternative would be to develop a new platform for add-on ratings and reviews that only uses the forum authentication and access control components.
20140202 10:52:15< shadowm> But reinventing the wheel isn't always the best solution.
20140202 10:52:36< shadowm> Especially when it comes to public platforms accessed by anyone and everyone.
20140202 10:55:22< vultraz_old> shadowm: restricting reviews to specific groups could also cause problems. How many active >= forum regulars are there who regularly play content and would be willing to review are there?
20140202 10:55:37< shadowm> DUH.
20140202 10:55:46< shadowm> We promote more people more frequently.
20140202 10:55:58< shadowm> Either to Forum Regulars or to whatever new group is designated for the task.
20140202 10:56:23< shadowm> It's not that hard, and technically you don't even need to be a moderator or administrator to be given the ability to add people to your group.
20140202 10:58:58< shadowm> Anyway, that's all from me for now.
20140202 11:00:47< vultraz_old> what about an automatic promotion to Forum Regular once you hit, say, 200 posts or something?
20140202 11:04:27< shadowm> No.
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20140202 11:12:37< AI0867|FOSDEM> that causes spam
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20140202 12:07:32< Ivanovic> initial fosdem discussions are documented: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2014
20140202 12:20:12< AI0867|FOSDEM> Espreon: +verbatim+ .... -verbatim-
20140202 12:20:50< AI0867|FOSDEM> Espreon: there should be a "markup recipe" thing in the sidebar, but there's a savane bug about it frequently disappearing
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20140202 12:33:25< irker827> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master faf00cb278b8 / data/core/terrain.cfg: Fix accidentally broken string http://git.io/BXsVqQ
20140202 12:33:38< AI0867|FOSDEM> Gallaecio: ^
20140202 12:33:50< AI0867|FOSDEM> I think that's the only one in there
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20140202 12:36:02< irker827> wesnoth: Allefant wesnoth-old:master a425c951c215 / data/tools/ (unit_tree/html_output.py wmlunits): [wmlunits] show vision and jamming for a unit http://git.io/up3rAg
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20140202 12:46:01< Gallaecio> AI0867|FOSDEM: it is indeed the only one I found while translating.
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20140202 14:56:30< Ivanovic> does this issue also occur in the desktop version?
20140202 14:56:31< Ivanovic> http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15313-battle-for-wesnoth-dev-release/?p=303499
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20140202 16:01:12< irker540> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master f1b08804631a / / (21 files in 3 dirs): Fix unit_box http://git.io/3fMPJA
20140202 16:01:12< irker540> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master ba3c02f2f047 / data/tools/ (unit_tree/html_output.py wmlunits): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:wesnoth/wesnoth-old http://git.io/tz6I2Q
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20140202 19:54:30< AI0867> I'm back from FOSDEM, and immediately coverity starts working again
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20140202 20:34:36< AI0867> fabi: at your home machine now?
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20140202 20:44:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: asheviere (old server) will be shut down on 16th Feb 2014, migrate all stuff, cf dev mailinglist | 217 bugs, 343 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20140202 21:35:34< mordante> servus
20140202 21:41:11< AI0867> mordante: coverity worked the moment I got home
20140202 21:41:52< mordante> AI0867, weird
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20140202 21:47:01< fabi> AI0867: Yes :-)
20140202 21:47:33< mordante> AI0867, view defects looks rather familiar over here :-(
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20140202 21:56:30< Ivanovic> re
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20140202 22:05:39< irker286> wesnoth: Mark de Wever wesnoth-old:master 074731d6ace2 / CMakeLists.txt changelog src/util.hpp: Adds the -Wconditional-uninitialized flag. http://git.io/WEz6og
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20140202 22:27:19< shadowm> Hm.
20140202 22:27:23< shadowm> Lots of stuff in the ML to reply to.
20140202 22:28:04< shadowm> I'm going to have to think all this over with tea later.
20140202 22:35:02< zookeeper> omgwhat
20140202 22:36:53< Ivanovic> shadowm: yes, please make sure to mention the stuff you talked to with vultraz_old today
20140202 22:43:30< mattsc> Ivanovic: I'll try to catch up on things later today or tomorrow (just got back from a trip).  I'll reply to those to which I feel that I have something to contribute.  If you don't hear from me on a topic by the end of tomorrow, you can assume that I either agree or don't know enough about it to have an opinion.
20140202 22:44:00< Ivanovic> mattsc: please especially look at the gsoc question
20140202 22:44:07< Ivanovic> would be cool to have you as mentor
20140202 22:44:13< Ivanovic> shadowm: the same applies to you
20140202 22:44:51< mordante> I'm off night
20140202 22:45:56< mattsc> Ivanovic: I saw my name mentioned in there as I quickly scanned through things.  The problem with that is that I'll be traveling quite a bit again this summer and might be unavailable for a week or two at a time several times during the GSoC period.  That wouldn't be fair to the student if I were the sole mentor, but sharing with somebody else might work.
20140202 22:46:06< shadowm> Uh.
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20140202 22:46:14< shadowm> Mentor? Me?
20140202 22:46:23< mattsc> Also, obviously I can't mentor anything that involves serious C++ coding  :P
20140202 22:47:05< Ivanovic> mattsc: if you e.g. mentored an AI project together with Crab this could work...
20140202 22:47:08< shadowm> I mean, how do I put this...
20140202 22:47:28< mattsc> Ivanovic: yes, something like that might work
20140202 22:47:42< Ivanovic> shadowm: if you want to ask if I am f***ing insane: sure, you should have been aware of this for a while
20140202 22:47:42< fabi> mattsc: I think it is okay, we usually can compensate if a Mentor is not around for some time.
20140202 22:47:59< shadowm> Ivanovic: Well, yes, that's one thing. :p
20140202 22:48:00< Ivanovic> shadowm: but on the other hand you have done a whole lot of good stuff for the project
20140202 22:48:14< shadowm> Second thing is that I don't think I'd be a good mentor.
20140202 22:48:19< Ivanovic> and we thought that you could probably be a good mentor in some area that interests you
20140202 22:48:40< fabi> mattsc: Also, a project mentored by you does not need to be c++ based. I mentored a java based project twice for example.
20140202 22:48:51< shadowm> Especially since odds are that I'd be mentoring a student who is even more knowledgeable in some thing than me.
20140202 22:49:21< shadowm> Several studients I've seen here over the years certainly know more about C++ and CS subjects than me.
20140202 22:49:53< mattsc> fabi: sure, that makes sense.  Anyways, let me catch up on a bunch of so-called real-life things and I'll reply to that message later (probably tomorrow, the way things are looking)
20140202 22:50:05< fabi> mattsc: Sure :-)
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20140202 23:13:21< loonycyborg> shadowm: Don't be too hard on yourself
20140202 23:13:55< loonycyborg> Most students and actual developers even are less competent than you :P
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 03 00:00:32 2014