--- Log opened Mon Feb 17 00:00:13 2014
20140217 00:45:32< iceiceice> hi, i have a question for anyone who might know or have an opinion
20140217 00:46:05< iceiceice> i think it would be desirable if the endlevel tag permitted umc authors to override some fields of the target scenario
20140217 00:46:20< iceiceice> for instance, if the target scenario has random_start_time on, they could switch it off
20140217 00:46:29< iceiceice> or more generally perhaps change how the sides are configured
20140217 00:47:11< iceiceice> the reason is that, sometimes you want to reuse a scenario with slightly modified parameters, and it leads to bloat in the cache if you make different copies of the scenario for each setting,
20140217 00:47:23< iceiceice> equally important, sometimes you might want to transition to a scenario that is not "yours"
20140217 00:47:32< iceiceice> but is not originally concieved of as being the target of a transition
20140217 00:48:28< iceiceice> does anyone have any thoughts on this?
20140217 00:48:59< mattsc> iceiceice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxK_nA2iVXw  :P
20140217 00:49:29< iceiceice> haha
20140217 00:49:52< mattsc> Sorry, I'll stop now ...
20140217 01:12:13< shadowm> happygrue: Is this you? http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=136703
20140217 01:13:29< happygrue> shadowm: yes, is it a problem?
20140217 01:13:51< shadowm> Only if it were an impostor.
20140217 01:14:14< happygrue> tis me!  Though if my evil twin happygrue_ shows up, shoot him.
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20140217 04:21:36< irker012> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:alep_android_port 4ffb0d2cc6fa / src/hotkeys.cpp: Android port 1.10.7-23 update from Alessandro Pira http://git.io/eHWzHw
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20140217 04:29:14< irker012> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth-old:master bbe459927fa3 / data/tools/wesnoth/wescamp.py: Add a missing space http://git.io/k51ypw
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20140217 07:04:17< zookeeper> iceiceice, well how common situation is that? and surely the bloat cache isn't of any concern except in case of very large scenarios
20140217 07:04:58< zookeeper> s/bloat cache/cache bloat
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20140217 07:06:19< iceiceice> so its hard for me to really know, but I think it is quite common to make many copies of the same scenario for each individual setting of parameters
20140217 07:06:34< iceiceice> for instance coffee describes doing this in his top comment as a workaround for a bug:
20140217 07:06:35< iceiceice> https://gna.org/bugs/?15948
20140217 07:07:13< zookeeper> not that i
20140217 07:07:37< zookeeper> know everything about UMC, but i don't think i've ever heard of cases of having to duplicate scenarios for a reason like that
20140217 07:07:43< zookeeper> i'm sure it's happened, but...
20140217 07:07:58< iceiceice> ok well, i can tell you right now RBY duplicates every mainline mp scenario
20140217 07:08:18< iceiceice> to make it so they all have matching SAVE ids
20140217 07:08:26< zookeeper> RBY?
20140217 07:08:35< _8680_> Rushed By Yetis, I think.
20140217 07:08:39< iceiceice> RBY = Rushed By Yetis
20140217 07:08:47< iceiceice> is the main map pool for ladder play
20140217 07:08:52< iceiceice> uhm
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20140217 07:09:03< zookeeper> right
20140217 07:09:20< iceiceice> Creep War is a popular add-on, there are like 6 variations of it, each of which are copy pastes pretty much with minor variations
20140217 07:09:52< iceiceice> im not sure if its terribly important but,
20140217 07:10:09< iceiceice> basically i think it would be nice if carryover_info could include some extra parameters of the scenario
20140217 07:10:17< iceiceice> that's all that i'm talking about doing
20140217 07:10:36< zookeeper> well, sure, if you think it's useful
20140217 07:11:36< zookeeper> maybe something like [endlevel] [next_scenario_settings]
20140217 07:11:51< iceiceice> yeah thats what i had in mind
20140217 07:12:16< zookeeper> and all the cfg inside that gets merged with the scenario's cfg
20140217 07:12:27< iceiceice> yeah
20140217 07:12:44< zookeeper> i mean, no reason to limit it to just a pre-defined set of overrides when you could allow full cfg merging, i suppose
20140217 07:13:18< iceiceice> sure
20140217 07:13:30< iceiceice> it would be nice if you could pass along events to run at the next scenario for example
20140217 07:13:53< zookeeper> yeah, and add new sides too
20140217 07:16:09< iceiceice> so i guess the best way to explain my motivation is that, i think that many of the different interesting strategy games people now play under wesnoth i think can have additional replay value or interest if you set it up or configure it slightly differently
20140217 07:16:22< iceiceice> so for example people played mainline 1v1 for a long time,
20140217 07:16:29< iceiceice> then there was sudden interest in this "pick your recruits" style
20140217 07:16:48< iceiceice> where its the same except that you have an initial phase where you draft an ad hoc faction just for that match
20140217 07:16:58< iceiceice> theres a lot of scenarios where a similar mod might be interesting,
20140217 07:17:22< iceiceice> but it is really hard to do that in a scenario sometimes, as if there are timed events you'll have to delay all the timers ,
20140217 07:17:33< iceiceice> or like really read what is going on to figure out how to do it safely
20140217 07:17:40< iceiceice> its a lot simpler if you can use the target scenario as a black box
20140217 07:17:56< iceiceice> and just write an initial scenario that is bascialyl just a gui / configuration scenario
20140217 07:18:16< iceiceice> so RBY is just a random map pool, that also does faction randomization while guaranteeing that there is not a mirror matchup,
20140217 07:18:24< iceiceice> as many players feel mirror matchup is less fun
20140217 07:18:28< iceiceice> so its not even interactive,
20140217 07:18:40< iceiceice> but its implemented as an mp campaign
20140217 07:18:41< iceiceice> where the fisrt scenario ends during prestart
20140217 07:19:05< iceiceice> the pick your recruits thing, as it was implemented, was extremely laborious
20140217 07:19:09< iceiceice> and reequires new copies of every map
20140217 07:19:24< iceiceice> but you could just have a little "draft a faction" scenario which transitions to the target mainline scenario
20140217 07:19:34< iceiceice> and it would cut out alot of the crap
20140217 07:19:45< iceiceice> i want to make it very easy to make scen\arios like this
20140217 07:19:48< zookeeper> well... pick your recruits, except for the very very first version, was implemented as an era and it wasn't very laborious
20140217 07:20:04< iceiceice> ok well, it predates me
20140217 07:20:08< iceiceice> but looking at the current version
20140217 07:20:17< iceiceice> its like every map has this turn 1 event where the leader is stone 
20140217 07:20:25< iceiceice> and you pick your recruits
20140217 07:20:29< iceiceice> and then turn 2 is a "normal" turn
20140217 07:20:35< iceiceice> and so every TOD has to be set back one
20140217 07:20:39< zookeeper> no, it's just an era with some start events that make the magic happen
20140217 07:20:42< iceiceice> and any scheduled event has to be adjusted
20140217 07:20:57< iceiceice> ok, maybe i'm talking about PYRA
20140217 07:21:02< iceiceice> or some other version
20140217 07:21:05< zookeeper> probably, i dunno how it's done
20140217 07:21:16< iceiceice> but clearly if you want to play mainline Aethermaw with Pick your recruits
20140217 07:21:23< iceiceice> you need to adjust all the timings
20140217 07:21:40< iceiceice> to make time to pick your recruits
20140217 07:22:36< zookeeper> not really, i believe [modify_turns] can be used on turn 2 to set the turn number back to 1
20140217 07:22:51< iceiceice> ok, that might be
20140217 07:22:53< zookeeper> i'm not sure if it supports going backwards, but at least the wiki doesn't say it doesn't
20140217 07:24:04< iceiceice> either way, even if you do that, it requires duplicating the aethermaw scenario with your mod
20140217 07:24:19< iceiceice> well i guess i might be wrong about that,
20140217 07:24:22< zookeeper> no it doesn't!
20140217 07:24:26< iceiceice> if you can pack everything into the era
20140217 07:24:27< zookeeper> that's my point
20140217 07:25:25< zookeeper> the era doesn't need to do anything except the few events it takes to handle the unit picking
20140217 07:25:35< zookeeper> then an event to set turn back to 1, unstone leaders, done
20140217 07:26:08< iceiceice> ok well, if you actually can set the turn back to 1, that's great
20140217 07:26:28< iceiceice> im going to look at which ever version of PYRA i had downlaoded,
20140217 07:26:37< zookeeper> i guess i could port it for 1.10 anyway...
20140217 07:26:39< iceiceice> but i think ti would cut down on the size of that add-on by about 20x if what you say works
20140217 07:26:42< zookeeper> s/could/should
20140217 07:28:31< zookeeper> i don't understand wtf PYRA duplicates _all_ the scenarios. there doesn't really seem to be any reason for it.
20140217 07:28:50< zookeeper> scenarios with timers that are important enough that they must be accounted for? fine, there's maybe a few in mainline
20140217 07:29:51< zookeeper> anyway, the orders of magnitude bigger "problem" with it is the way it seems to also duplicate like all mainline units
20140217 07:30:04< iceiceice> i guess its true that starting TOD is less important for balance when you aren't using mainline factions anymore
20140217 07:30:40< iceiceice> so i guess i see it as a more general thing then just PYR though
20140217 07:31:05< iceiceice> the wesnoth interface and WML are powerful enough that it is relatively easy to make complicated guis for game related choices
20140217 07:31:15< zookeeper> _also_, [replace_schedule] can be used to set the schedule to a predefined one and basically ignore the scenario's random start time
20140217 07:31:15< iceiceice> and that is actually easier than trying to code something up in C++
20140217 07:31:50< iceiceice> oh i didn't know about that, thanks
20140217 07:34:16< iceiceice> so what i think is basically, we should anticipate that if someone wants to set up a special start or configuration procedure for their scenario, they will want to do it in WML, and technically set it all up as a mini MP campaign
20140217 07:34:47< iceiceice> because in some cases that's actually the easiest thing right now
20140217 07:36:14< zookeeper> didn't you mean "someone else's scenario" in this case? :p
20140217 07:36:25< iceiceice> sure either way
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20140217 07:49:08< iceiceice> hmm so i am looking at the config.cpp source...
20140217 07:49:26< iceiceice> so merging just merges children based on their position in the ordered children list, and not by id matching or anything?
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20140217 08:34:38< zookeeper> oh well, looks like [modify_turns] current=1 doesn't work, at least in 1.10
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20140217 10:12:11< Jigar54> i m new and want to start contributing. Can anyone guide me through? 
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20140217 10:29:32< zookeeper> Jigar54, well that naturally depends on what you want to do.
20140217 10:30:30< Jigar54> i know c/c++ and am very much intrsted in ai and game development. I have some knowledge in ai too.
20140217 10:31:03< zookeeper> so coding then, i take it
20140217 10:32:23< Jigar54> actually graphics part too is good
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20140217 10:34:49< Jigar54> as u say. 
20140217 10:35:22< zookeeper> i'd be faster if the wiki and forums weren't so jammed right now.
20140217 10:39:04< zookeeper> in any case, stick around here, it's a time of day when not many people are around
20140217 10:39:22< Jigar54> ohh...its okay...will stay around only! 
20140217 10:41:56< zookeeper> well i can't get you any links because w.org is apparently toast, but 1) get a clone of the repo 2) start working and 3) issue pull requests when you've finished with something
20140217 10:42:25< zookeeper> and between 2 and 3, talk to people here to make sure you're actually working on something useful ;)
20140217 10:46:54< zookeeper> but i think you more or less have to decide for yourself what area of the game interests you the most
20140217 10:47:54< Jigar54> okay thnx will surely start working on that! can u tell me where will i find the repo? 
20140217 10:47:59< Jigar54> yaa i will look upon dat
20140217 10:48:09< zookeeper> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old
20140217 10:48:21< zookeeper> nevermind the "-old", it's still the right one
20140217 10:49:05< Jigar54> okay will start working on it. 
20140217 10:50:23< zookeeper> so how much have you played the game?
20140217 10:51:54< Jigar54> just looked at it and it intrsted me. I like strategy games ! 
20140217 10:52:45< Jigar54> will play it more in d coming days
20140217 10:59:01< zookeeper> that's a good idea, since how else will you know which parts of the game you can and want to improve
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20140217 13:18:04-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.11.10 (start of string+feature freeze) planned for February 22nd | asheviere (old server) will be shut down on 16th Feb 2014, migrate all stuff, cf dev mailinglist | 223 bugs, 348 feature requests, 28 patches | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20140217 13:18:04-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Sun Feb 16 19:27:11 2014]
20140217 13:18:04[Users #wesnoth-dev]
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20140217 19:53:28< irker106> wesnoth: anonymissimus wesnoth-old:master d01e212391e9 / projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vc project update http://git.io/Z11www
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20140217 20:24:45< iceiceice> hi, if anyone with an opinion and some spare time can comment on the discussion at either of these https://gna.org/bugs/?21405, https://gna.org/bugs/?21659, i think i have some time later today to work on a PR for one or both of these
20140217 20:25:58< iceiceice> or at least to do some testing
20140217 20:35:26< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master c3e3675fa2ba / data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): gd Map overlays for AOI, TSG http://git.io/vUQJGg
20140217 20:35:28< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 4b1ce10ec0b0 / data/tools/ (unit_tree/html_output.py wmlunits): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git http://git.io/els3bw
20140217 20:35:30< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 50ca4a599886 / data/campaigns/An_Orcish_Incursion/images/maps/l10n/gd/aoi--overlay.png: Updated gd overlay for AOI map http://git.io/osIhgg
20140217 20:35:38< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 02bae1337ae5 / data/core/images/maps/l10n/gd/titlescreen--overlay.png: Added titlescreen overlay for gd http://git.io/XD3sHg
20140217 20:35:38< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 8bdc96ecbb91 / / (1233 files in 84 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git http://git.io/w4tjMg
20140217 20:35:38< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master bd3061e78b2d / / (628 files in 63 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth-old.git http://git.io/MOE5lQ
20140217 20:35:38< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 4d57d19e8ca3 / / (6 files in 5 dirs): Added gd map localization for HTTT and fixed exported .png overlays for other gd http://git.io/qwBj1Q
20140217 20:35:40< irker106> wesnoth: GunChleoc wesnoth-old:master 099727163908 / data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fixed gd map overlays for AOI, TSG http://git.io/JO5pRA
20140217 20:35:43< irker106> wesnoth: Chusslove Illich wesnoth-old:master 413be729a393 / / (6 files in 5 dirs): Merge pull request #91 from gunchleoc/master http://git.io/XZosvQ
20140217 20:37:11< irker106> wesnoth: Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић) wesnoth-old:master f063fb493657 / l10n-track: Updated l10n-track. http://git.io/QVvadw
20140217 20:39:45< happygrue> iceiceice: I'll take a look at the multiplayer drop one
20140217 20:47:46< mattsc> iceiceice: go ahead with the location set PR, I think that one's a no brainer.  You should do a grep through the data/ folder though just to make sure that it's not used the other way around somewhere.
20140217 20:47:52< mattsc> I doubt it, but better safe than sorry.
20140217 20:48:09< iceiceice> ok thx
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20140217 20:48:50< happygrue> it's tricky
20140217 20:49:26< happygrue> still trying to think about what the ideal solution is.
20140217 20:55:05< iceiceice> i think that in practice, if it is a "relatively serious" game, usually people just hope that there is a spectator
20140217 20:55:11< iceiceice> and pass control to the spec
20140217 20:55:37< iceiceice> so my feeling is that if you could pass to a blocker droid that would be ideal
20140217 20:55:37< iceiceice> but i would want to test it 
20140217 20:55:38< iceiceice> clearly
20140217 20:57:38< iceiceice> it might make sense to look into how it happens that the ai gets interrupted -- is there some kind of "undroid" exception that is thrown?
20140217 20:57:40< happygrue> iceiceice: that doesn't work for 1v1 games where you want to wait for your opponent to come back
20140217 20:57:49< happygrue> is there a way to bypass the replay?
20140217 20:57:50< iceiceice> wait why not
20140217 20:58:26< happygrue> passing control to a spec, assuming there is on, when you want to play against ONLY the person you are playing against is not ideal at all I think?
20140217 20:58:31< happygrue> *one
20140217 20:58:39< iceiceice> i mean the obs can see anyway
20140217 20:58:50< iceiceice> clearly the obs is not supposed to touch anything
20140217 20:59:00< happygrue> yes, but they could also then move pieces and mess up the game
20140217 20:59:00< iceiceice> yeah so you pass to someone who wont do that :)
20140217 20:59:00< happygrue> right, but who knows what happens in practice?
20140217 20:59:08< iceiceice> idk this is the best solution atm
20140217 20:59:08< happygrue> and there has to be an obs for that to work...
20140217 20:59:12< iceiceice> yes
20140217 20:59:18< iceiceice> so that is why the blocker droid would be an improvement
20140217 20:59:21< happygrue> I'm writing something longer
20140217 20:59:25< happygrue> yes
20140217 20:59:40< happygrue> but, the problem still exists if the player has to watch the replay to retake his side
20140217 20:59:53< happygrue> so that doesn't actually fix the issue of players seeing each other
20140217 20:59:58< happygrue> just lessens it
20140217 21:00:13< iceiceice> so at least if you have the blocker droid you can save and reload
20140217 21:00:20< happygrue> so... can we skip the replay?  Or blank out the display while watching a replay?
20140217 21:00:24< iceiceice> if you dont even have that then theres no way for you to save and reload
20140217 21:00:35< iceiceice> without seeing all sides
20140217 21:00:38< happygrue> but reloading you will also see all sides...
20140217 21:00:42< iceiceice> no i dont think so
20140217 21:00:57< iceiceice> if you reload from a save file
20140217 21:00:57< iceiceice> it will jump right to the snapshot
20140217 21:01:11< happygrue> well, maybe we should test that, I thought in the game reaction screen where you fill sides with players the host at least gets to see all races?
20140217 21:01:19< happygrue> not positions, but leaders and stuff
20140217 21:01:24< happygrue> not as bad though
20140217 21:01:25< iceiceice> thats true
20140217 21:01:46< iceiceice> yes so i guess that is a drawback
20140217 21:01:56< happygrue> save/reload is still the best IMO, unless we can totally skip watching the replay somehow
20140217 21:02:13< happygrue> though existiing options should be kept too
20140217 21:02:41< iceiceice> yeah i mean... i agree that the system definitely needs a lot of thought 
20140217 21:02:45< happygrue> what would be most ideal is to block the replay, so that in larger games players could keep playing while the drop rejoins and no one has to stop
20140217 21:02:55< iceiceice> that seems like a larger project though
20140217 21:03:02< happygrue> but I don't know if that is possible, given how replays work
20140217 21:03:02< happygrue> yes
20140217 21:03:05< iceiceice> or at least i'm not sure how skipping rpelays workss
20140217 21:03:10< happygrue> too bad we didn't have this talk a week ago... ;)
20140217 21:03:10< iceiceice> haha 
20140217 21:03:12< iceiceice> yeah
20140217 21:03:27< iceiceice> i feel like the two things that SlowThinker suggests would help in 90% of cases anyways
20140217 21:03:35< happygrue> it would be better than how it is
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20140217 21:06:10< happygrue> okay, I posted something along those lines
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20140217 21:09:13< mattsc> iceiceice: PR #97 needs a changelog entry
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20140217 21:10:08< iceiceice> happygrue: i think it cut off the last bit of your post maybe
20140217 21:10:18< happygrue> >:|
20140217 21:11:16< happygrue> grrr
20140217 21:11:16< happygrue> it said success!  I trusted it
20140217 21:12:31< happygrue> nope, I just fail at editing and there was a bit of a line I thought I deleted at the end.
20140217 21:13:02< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master ca1952c043c7 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: make all the guards loyal http://git.io/egYFsA
20140217 21:13:05< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 70f120c96a1d / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: make reinforcements appear at southern edge of map http://git.io/s1aigQ
20140217 21:13:06< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master a9b7424e178a / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: scroll to location where reinforcements appear http://git.io/gCPUKA
20140217 21:13:08< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 1c96f82f276c / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: some tweaks to AI reinforcement events http://git.io/H7zuGA
20140217 21:13:10< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 49afab28d956 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: make the enemy AI leader passive http://git.io/iGHeSw
20140217 21:13:21< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 16e71c2b9d0a / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: decrease enemy AI aggression during nighttime http://git.io/_m7Ruw
20140217 21:13:21< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 17d447fa6a19 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: start schedule at morning, not dawn http://git.io/Xqbnww
20140217 21:13:21< irker106> wesnoth: mattsc wesnoth-old:master 56c458b2ff63 / data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/17_The_Human_Attack.cfg: SotBE S17: balancing adjustments to turns, gold, income http://git.io/1WvP8w
20140217 21:15:29< iceiceice> haha
20140217 21:15:49< iceiceice> mattsc: i am trying to edit the changelog using github web interface but apparently the changelog is too much for it to handle
20140217 21:16:04< iceiceice> somehow i thought that thing was more robust than that
20140217 21:16:53< iceiceice> i'll mess around with this later, i dont want to switch branches on my local repo right now
20140217 21:17:03< mattsc> iceiceice: hmm, I thought people had done that before ...
20140217 21:17:22< iceiceice> maybe i have too many tabs open or something
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20140217 21:18:00< mattsc> Sure, no problem.  If you do't get it to work, just send me the line and I'll put it into the changelog after merging the PR.
20140217 21:18:58< mattsc> I won't do either until tonight anyway, really need to take care of some other things right now; ttyl.
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20140217 21:36:32< iceiceice> ttyl
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 18 00:00:43 2014